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Discuss thoughts on Bardic Music changes.
So far with my bard playtest (it's a Lyrakien Bard cohort) my only input is that Fascinate stinks at lower levels. Instead of 1 target +1 /3 levels after first it should be an HD limit and much larger. The only real time to use fascinate is to incapacitate a group, otherwise the rogue could sneak up and just sap the single guy.
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I think that Bardic music as a whole could do with a slight re-think. As things stand, I think that some the bardic performance abilities are still just a little underpowered - for example, the group buffs that they provide are dwarfed by the potency of the buff spells that are available to clerics and mages at the same level. And Fascinate is nowhere near as potent as a simple Sleep spell..
IMHO, the bard is still the poor cousin of the other 3.5 classes and could do with some serious love. The role of the bard in the adventuring party needs to be clarified - is the bard all about group buffing or is it about crowd control (temporarily incapacitating groups of lower level opponents)? Or should the bard be the ultimate jack-of-all-trades? A tighter conceptual focus would benefit the class as a whole.
The role of the bard in the adventuring party needs to be clarified - is the bard all about group buffing or is it about crowd control (temporarily incapacitating groups of lower level opponents)? Or should the bard be the ultimate jack-of-all-trades? A tighter conceptual focus would benefit the class as a whole.
I'll probably be saying this multiple times this week, but the Bard, first and foremost, needs its own role, instead of being eclipsed by the rest of the party.
Removing Morale bonuses from the other classes would go a long way. Currently, a arcanist can place Heroism on his group, and eclipse a bard's Inspire Courage ability. And the arcanist can prebuff with Heroism and sling his spells as much as he wants afterwards, while the Bard is stuck maintaining his Inspire Courage.
By the way, the silly limitation on not being able to cast spells or use magic items while using a bardsong needs to leave. The bardic effects are minor enough; no additional limitations are needed.
-Matt
Whats the Bard meant for? - seems to be a good question. In my opinion it should be some kind of (versatile) arcane adventurer.
There we have the first point. The bardic music if far away from being versatile. When i look at other classes and the choices they can make, the bard seems to bee the class with almost no choices.
When i think of the Bard as an ultimative generalist as wich he is described in the PHB, i would really really like to see an option WITHOUT any Bardic music/performance.
The Spells known + Spells per day are really really good in Pathfinder, each level minimum one new spell known and per day. Thats great!
The problem for me with the Bardic music is: Almost everything i can think of a good effect for a music effect is already available as spell anywhere. Thats of course because of every effect you can think of is available as a spell.
this leads me personally to the point where i think, be better get rid of the whole music stuff, let the Bard be a 2/3 spellcaster and add something usefull to the class.
I had think of something like this:
Choose at every level where the bard does not gain a new spell level, he can adapt one class feature of any other base class.
Of course there has to be put some more brain in it. But thats the idea.
Per haps the Bard could end with something like this (adapting rogue stuff)
Level 2: Evasion
Level 3: Sneak attack + 1d6
Level 5: Sneak attack + 2d6
Level 6: uncanny dodge
Level 8: Sneak attack +3d6
Level 9: Rogue Talent
and so on. The Bard is still the most difficoult Class to biuld and play. And i would really like to see some options, so the bard could really fit into some more usefull role that staying beid the others singing and healing the rest of the group.
My 5 cent.
Calden
Sorry for my writing, i'm not a native english speaker, so i apollogize for bad grammar and so on.
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Possibly making the bardic music bonuses untyped so it stacks with everything else?
Also Bardic Music should probably be a move equivalent action, ok playing some instruments does take a little more concentration 9and both hands) but dance and oratory can both be used on the move in a free flowing fight, (my personal favorite being quiping for the bonuses,)
Removing Morale bonuses from the other classes would go a long way. Currently, a arcanist can place Heroism on his group, and eclipse a bard's Inspire Courage ability. And the arcanist can prebuff with Heroism and sling his spells as much as he wants afterwards, while the Bard is stuck maintaining his Inspire Courage.
Actually, only the Spell-like bardic musics (Fascination, Song of Freedom, Soothing Performance, Frightening Tune, etc.) require you to maintain concentration, the supernatural ones (essentially all the buffs and countersong/distract) only require you to take a standard action the first round, maintaining them afterwards requires no action. (page 16, top right, second paragraph.)
By the way, the silly limitation on not being able to cast spells or use magic items while using a bardsong needs to leave. The bardic effects are minor enough; no additional limitations are needed.
Agreed here, not so much about the bard songs being minor, the bard in the group I'm running a game for right now probably adds as much total damage as anyone else in the group through Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Dirge of Doom. Admittedly, it's not direct damage, but the bonus damage and attack bonus spread across each other member of the group attacking each round really adds up.
All that aside, being unable to cast spells or use magic items while maintaining bard songs does seem really frustrating. I'd really like to see a feat that would allow bards to do both while maintaining their songs.
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By the way, the silly limitation on not being able to cast spells or use magic items while using a bardsong needs to leave. The bardic effects are minor enough; no additional limitations are needed.Agreed here, not so much about the bard songs being minor, the bard in the group I'm running a game for right now probably adds as much total damage as anyone else in the group through Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Dirge of Doom. Admittedly, it's not direct damage, but the bonus damage and attack bonus spread across each other member of the group attacking each round really adds up.
All that aside, being unable to cast spells or use magic items while maintaining bard songs does seem really frustrating. I'd really like to see a feat that would allow bards to do both while maintaining their songs.
Actually, that makes a certain amount of sense. How can a bard cast a spell or activate a command word if he's singing? How can he shape arcane gestures if he's playing his musical instrument? Mechanically, it needs to go, but conceptually it works. Maybe as a class ability or feat allow the bard to do this at a higher level to reflect is greater skill that allows him to incorporate the arcane into his music?
As a musician, there is a great deal that irritates me about the Bard.
The mechanics of bardic music are really, really weak on Role Playing— not that I would ask players to burst into song at the table (funny when they do)— I just don't get it. There are a slew of mythological and quasi-historical examples of music in battle, but the current Bardic music really fails to capture it for me.
I would absorb all the musical effects into the bard's spell list, and unify bardic spells as ALL songs or otherwise bard-like things. The instrument becomes an Arcane Focus for a bunch of bard spells, with similar restrictions as they impose now.
Spells-as-Songs appeals to me more as a musician than does the current "toggle switch" approach to music.
As a musician, there is a great deal that irritates me about the Bard.
The mechanics of bardic music are really, really weak on Role Playing— not that I would ask players to burst into song at the table (funny when they do)— I just don't get it. There are a slew of mythological and quasi-historical examples of music in battle, but the current Bardic music really fails to capture it for me.
I would absorb all the musical effects into the bard's spell list, and unify bardic spells as ALL songs or otherwise bard-like things. The instrument becomes an Arcane Focus for a bunch of bard spells, with similar restrictions as they impose now.
Spells-as-Songs appeals to me more as a musician than does the current "toggle switch" approach to music.
I like that. It's interesting, different, and it opens up a lot of room for more bardic "songs" to be added in the future. My only worry would be how it interacts with spell resistance (as in most of the bardic songs shouldn't be affected by it) and the added attacks of opportunity for using some songs, that the bard would not have taken otherwise (but that's pretty minor).
It also means a bard that wants to use one effect isn't necessarily giving up one of their higher level effects for the day, as they'd be using spell slots instead.
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Has anyone ever looked at or played the Everquest d20 Role playing game? I think it had a much better system for bardic music. All the spells required a standard to cast, but could be maintained by spending the mana. A lot of the abilities are things that could be used without the mana ability.
For example: Bardic Music that increases the group's speed, a 'Bane' like effect (anti inspire courage), Removing Fatigue/Exhaustion like the Lyrakien ability, giving energy resistance to the group.
I like that. It's interesting, different, and it opens up a lot of room for more bardic "songs" to be added in the future. My only worry would be how it interacts with spell resistance (as in most of the bardic songs shouldn't be affected by it) and the added attacks of opportunity for using some songs, that the bard would not have taken otherwise (but that's pretty minor).
It also means a bard that wants to use one effect isn't necessarily giving up one of their higher level effects for the day, as they'd be using spell slots instead.
I'm not even claiming this is a good or balanced change. It certainly isn't backward compatible. It does seem a little simpler.
This rant is informed by one thing: my own musicianship. The bard should absolutely suffer attacks of opportunity while performing. This makes 100% perfect sense to me. I also don't think they should get the pass that they do on arcane spell failure— however a number of their best spells should bypass the Somatic component, requiring only Verbal.
Songs feel more like spells to me than a per day ability.
I think that there are a lot of ideas connecting the various types of performance, and I feel that the performance skill has improved in Pathfinder so far. These applications can easily be retained as different and interesting components for an expanded Bardic Spellcaster: Dance-linked effects have somatic components, songs have verbal (singing) and focus (instrument) components.
The bard should be able to learn new songs like the the wizard learns new spells. As a musician, I see a parallel between learning a new song and learning a new spell, and it feels like arcane magical research. I think a crucial part of roleplaying a bard should be unearthing ancient and mystical dirges, forgotten notes and secret chords (hallelujah!). For me, this is the only way to make bardic music less silly.
I know this might seem imbalanced with a spontaneous caster, but the way to balance it is with perform checks. A perform check to learn the spell like the wizard's spellcraft check is needed, with the same restriction that they must level before attempting a failed spell again.
All Bard spells should have perform checks in their descriptions. The spell shouldn't fail when the perform check is failed, but it should scale with the quality of performance.
Sorry, a lot of this is probably un-usable, but I'm trying to paint a picture of a bard that I would actually play. I find them to be unpalatable.
In other words, most "songs" are just spells, but the bard provides the iconic inspiration as a side effect of casting spells.
Good idea, but I don't think he should have to cast.
I would make this (Su) a swift action, since that's basically what the old perform check was.
The current mechanic printed in the Beta/SRD is needlessly complicated for a power that amounts to "You are a bard. Sing all the time. Allies get Bonus." They could save two pages of space by just making it this simple.
Wishlist:
- Most bardic music effects should be spells with Verbal components or Arcane Foci.
- Remove immunity to ASF: change the necessary spell components to Verbal.
- Basic, always-used bardsong abilities should become a swift action supernatural ability.
- Bards should be able to learn new songs like a wizard learns spells. The wages of this ability should come in the form of perform checks.
Once again, I have no agenda for balance or compatibility here, just personal taste. If someone schooled in the ways of design wants to clean up this idea, I welcome it!
Director of Game Design
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While I am interested in making the bard a bit more secure in his role, merging his music into spells is not the way to go. I like that the bard has a separate mechanic for his primary ability and this is a feature I intend to keep.
Does anyone else have more play experience with the bard as written. I would like to hear it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Does anyone else have more play experience with the bard as written.
Sorry - bard is one of very few classes neither I nor my players have played, so I cannot even try to be helpful in this regard.
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Actually, only the Spell-like bardic musics (Fascination, Song of Freedom, Soothing Performance, Frightening Tune, etc.) require you to maintain concentration, the supernatural ones (essentially all the buffs and countersong/distract) only require you to take a standard action the first round, maintaining them afterwards requires no action. (page 16, top right, second paragraph.)
I looked in the Beta rules where you suggested and I have looked at each of the abilities and I do not see support for what you are saying. I do not believe that the lines are as clear as spell-like abilities work one way and supernatural ones work another. Examples that do not fit the rule are Facinate and Inspire Competence. Both have concentration in their descriptions but one is a (SP) and the other is (SU). The only thing about actions that is clear in the paragraph is that all the abilities take a standard action to start and that some require concentration which also requires a standard action. Further, I see nothing to support that maintaining abilities that do not require concentration do not require any sort of action. (I can see that being the intent but it does not spell this out.)
I think this section could use come clarification. Maybe include (SU - Concentrate)or (SP - Concentrate) after the ability name if concentration is required. If there are action costs to maintain an ability, each ability should spell out what it costs to maintain the ability, i.e. standard action, move action, full action, free action, swift action, etc..
Does anyone else have more play experience with the bard as written. I would like to hear it.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Arcane spell failure exception has come up at the table. It is a corner case rule that seems really unfair to other arcane casters, and could be easily fixed by fixing the Components instead.
I have played in games where bards could learn new songs, that was really neat. That is why I wish that the ability was more "spell like". If there is a way to do this with the current power, I would be pleased.
The function of the perform skill in the Beta is an improvement, but I still feel like using skill ranks as a benchmark instead of a check is weird. This is one of those rules where the only way you wouldn't take those ranks is human error. I like linking perform to these powers, but can we find another way here?
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Does anyone else have more play experience with the bard as written. I would like to hear it.
The bard in our group tends to use Inspire Courage mostly. He sees this as doing the lion's share of damage as it buffs everyone. (We have been playing that this ability takes a standard action to start and maintain. Is this correct?) The other Bardic Performance abilities have not come up much. He is 7th level.
Bardic Knowledge has come up a few times. It is useful but is not nearly as cool as the old ability.
Spells and Cantrips have been useful. Summon Monster and Invisibility have been used to good effect.
Does anyone else have more play experience with the bard as written? I would like to hear it.
To answer your question, I summed up everything I've learned about the 3.5 Bard, and the frustrations I encountered, into the Five Relevant Issues thread.
-Matt
While I am interested in making the bard a bit more secure in his role, merging his music into spells is not the way to go. I like that the bard has a separate mechanic for his primary ability and this is a feature I intend to keep.
Does anyone else have more play experience with the bard as written. I would like to hear it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Quite a bit of experience here, as a DM at least, every game I've run for the last year or so has had a bard in the group. My players fell in love with Morale bonuses and never went back. Heh.
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I looked in the Beta rules where you suggested and I have looked at each of the abilities and I do not see support for what you are saying. I do not believe that the lines are as clear as spell-like abilities work one way and supernatural ones work another. Examples that do not fit the rule are Facinate and Inspire Competence. Both have concentration in their descriptions but one is a (SP) and the other is (SU). The only thing about actions that is clear in the paragraph is that all the abilities take a standard action to start and that some require concentration which also requires a standard action. Further, I see nothing to support that maintaining abilities that do not require concentration do not require any sort of action. (I can see that being the intent but it does not spell this out.)
Interesting that you're befuddled by this same thing, too. Check out this thread here where I too express confusion over this issue and beg for more clear and concise descriptions.
Robert
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While I am interested in making the bard a bit more secure in his role, merging his music into spells is not the way to go. I like that the bard has a separate mechanic for his primary ability and this is a feature I intend to keep.
Does anyone else have more play experience with the bard as written. I would like to hear it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I agree with jason that the music and spells remain seperate mechanics.
One thing to make the bard's role more clearly needed and etched in the party cohesion: take a page out of the Marshall class (in the mini's handbook.)
I think to pile on top of the Inspire Courage mechanic - use that a basis to create an aura that provides other party-enhancing benefits that the bard can peform.
AC, Attacks, Saves, Initiatives, Skills, etc are all things that can potentially be altered or enhanced via a bard's performance aura if you will - a la the marshall.
Provided that the bard can still cast spells etc while that aura is in effect.
I hate for my bard players to feel that every round all they can do is "I continue singing....lalalalaaa....everyone else continue to attack and do cool stuff....."
Robert
I have a few issues regarding Bardic performance.
First and foremost, duration. At the moment, there is no maximum duration to a single bardic performance. One of my players, in order to keep the bonuses active, is willing to "keep up" for the entire dungeon with his perform once he starts with it. Of course, a bard cannot do anything else AND the entire Dungeon is clearly alerted by a singing/dancing/whatsoever Bard, but still it seems a little strange; this is actually the only ability that can be used without limits (my players, being stage performers, insist that somebody can play an instrument - even a wind instrument - for long periods of time, and that is effectively true). A 1st level Bard can start his single Bardic performance at the beginning of the day and stopping only for lunch !
(I'm not discussing some horribly broken splat feats that allow Bards to cast spells while doing Bardic music...)
Perhaps a maximum duration of (let's say) 5 or 10 rounds per Bard level or something like this would be better (IMHO)...
The other issue regards the Bardic perform "Dirge of Doom".
"The effect lasts for as long as the enemy hears the bard and remains within 30 feet, and it persists for 3 rounds after the bard stops playing or the enemy leaves the area. Affected enemies are shaken and take a –2 penalty on ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks."
The ability itself is not overpowering, but what if a character is already shaken (by any means)? Being without Saving Throw, it should be better if it cannot be used on an already shaken character.
Just my 2c.
While I am interested in making the bard a bit more secure in his role, merging his music into spells is not the way to go. I like that the bard has a separate mechanic for his primary ability and this is a feature I intend to keep.
Does anyone else have more play experience with the bard as written. I would like to hear it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Perhaps you can point out for me wich role you do see for the Bard?
There's a lot talking about this issue and it seems that everybody has a different understanding of this role.Thx
Calden
By definition, if the enemy is already shaken, Dirge of Doom would have no effect on them. The only time it can really get overpowering is if another character has an AE ability that moves any shaken creatures to the next fear level (like the barbarian rage ability)I have a few issues regarding Bardic performance.
The other issue regards the Bardic perform "Dirge of Doom".
"The effect lasts for as long as the enemy hears the bard and remains within 30 feet, and it persists for 3 rounds after the bard stops playing or the enemy leaves the area. Affected enemies are shaken and take a –2 penalty on ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks."
The ability itself is not overpowering, but what if a character is already shaken (by any means)? Being without Saving Throw, it should be better if it cannot be used on an already shaken character.
Just my 2c.
Actually I stand corrected on that, it doesn't spell it out under the condition summary for shaken, frightened, or panicked, but I did finally find where it says fear effects stack. It's under the Special Abilities->Fear Effects section of the SRD. It would definitely be nice if the condition summaries and relevant abilities all had at least "See fear effects, pg. whatever" inserted.
While I am interested in making the bard a bit more secure in his role, merging his music into spells is not the way to go. I like that the bard has a separate mechanic for his primary ability and this is a feature I intend to keep.
Does anyone else have more play experience with the bard as written. I would like to hear it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thank the dark gods. I'm really perturbed that some want to turn it into an arcane trickster.
Personally, I would like to see the music made stronger. Overall, I think the bard is a handy class, if people know what to expect (and honestly, I don't think people playing a class that sings at the monster are expecting a total badass character), so I like their combination of skills and spells.
The Bard in my group currently finds all kinds of uses. So I don't understand people not the bard. She chose her spells carefully, so she has things like 'feather fall' in case the wizard is out, or cure spells. The cleric has terrible luck, and has gone down multiple times, so she's been able to literally save the party. And, in at least one case, when the wizard was out of spells, she saved the party with the aforementioned feather fall. She fights well using mounted combat (seriously, 3/4 BAB is fine, and she has nothing else she HAS to spend her feats on), and, even when she's not doing those things, she's usually giving the party a fair boost with inspire courage (I mean, come on, even a +1 to attack rolls is an extra +1). Due to her charisma and number of skill points, she's effectively become the main character on multiple occasions, because she has to do all the talking. People who think the bard sucks don't know how to play it.
With music, I would like to see "oh, the bard was helping" turned into "the bard was really useful this combat, good thing he/she was there". As much as I loathe MMOs, Coridan has the right idea about the EQ bard. It was never "WHOA AWESOME", but it was always a really nice thing to have. In general, I want to see the bard's utility amped up so they're helping at things the wizard/cleric would be too busy to do. I also would like to see them boosted as healers, so that they're at the 'second best' line along with the new paladin.
To that end, here are some more specific things I'd like to see:
-nix the cure light song and turn it into a fast heal/regeneration song, available at lower levels. You could easily put a duration cap on this to keep it from getting broken, and fast heal fits the feeling of a five minute song (that gradually heals) you more than an instant spell effect does.
-Speed boosting song "run run run run run from the terrifying monsters..." It's so good. Also, there's historical precedent,as drums have been used to spur people onwards in multiple culture for millenia.
-Inspire Heroics/inspire courage: Let's roll these into one song, and up the progression so it caps at +5.
-A reistance song: wouldn't be hard to do, and it would save the cleric a lot of work. Not to mention, I like the "utility" feel of being able to pull up a hefty resistance without a ton of preparation.
Overall, the bard's a pretty good class, and needs very little improvement. But any boosting it gets should probably be in the area of songs. It IS a bard...
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Honestly I think I'd rather just ditch 'spells' and make it all Bardic Music based, have a song list that the bard can pick 'songs known' from and make them all last performance + x rounds. Maybe make the bard do a perform check every round of performance (to give them something to do instead of just saying 'I inspire courage' and set some-what challenging DCs based on the song level (I've noticed most Bards have + Yes to all their perform checks by 5th level as is)
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I would absorb all the musical effects into the bard's spell list, and unify bardic spells as ALL songs or otherwise bard-like things. The instrument becomes an Arcane Focus for a bunch of bard spells, with similar restrictions as they impose now.
Spells-as-Songs appeals to me more as a musician than does the current "toggle switch" approach to music.
Hmmm... maybe the bard could "lose" or converts spell slots to Sonic damage? Perhaps something like D6 per spell level, or so? I wouldn't mind seeing more
I like your idea about instruments as Arcane Focus. Maybe the bard could have Musical Bond -- with a chosen instrument (working like an Arcane Focus) or his voice?
I wouldn't mind if the Bardic performance consisted of a list of "Bardic/Musical Powers" that you would choose just like Rage Powers -- that way you could really "customize" your Bard.
In any case, Deadly Performance is way too good, in my opinion -- it should be limited in some way, perhaps to a number of uses per day?