I've been playtesting a monk/sorcerer (still at level 1 so far) and I know Samuli has been playtesting a monk, too. One thing we both noticed: at low levels, the monk is often better off not doing a flurry of blows.
In Samuli's case, his monk was better off using a composite longbow (since he had higher Dex than Str, and a bow does better damage than a monk's fist).
In my case, my monk was better off using either a longspear or the claws granted by his Abyssal bloodline. In fact, the claws will be a strictly better bet until he becomes a level 4 monk!
Why not make the monk's flurry of blows good starting at level one?
Suggestion #1: Don't impose any penalty on the monk when he does a flurry of blows. If it's O.K. for a sorcerer to have two melee attacks that do 1d6 with no penalty, why not allow it for the monk?
...or...
Suggestion #2: Let the monk's unarmed attack do 1d8 damage starting at level 1, and go up from there.
Thoughts?
Given authority over the monk, I would do one or more of the following three things:
1. Increase BAB to full progression (apparently not going to happen);
2. Make the flurry a standard action, so that a move/flurry would be viable; and/or
3. Eliminate the attack penalty for the flurry.
I'd be hesitant to jack up the damage at 1st level: 1d6 is already equivalent to a light mace (pretty impressive for a guy right out of training!), and the problem with the flurry is the overwhelming frequency of misses, rather than the lack of base damage (a base 10d6 damage would still do you no good if you never hit).
Given authority over the monk, I would do one or more of the following three things:
1. Increase BAB to full progression (apparently not going to happen);
2. Make the flurry a standard action, so that a move/flurry would be viable; and/or
3. Eliminate the attack penalty for the flurry.
1. Agreed.
2. I wouldn't mind seeing two attacks as a standard action, if that's what you mean.3. Agreed.
I'd be hesitant to jack up the damage at 1st level: 1d6 is already equivalent to a light mace (pretty impressive for a guy right out of training!)
And yet, for my monk, using an unarmed strike is fairly unimpressive compared to just hitting someone with a two-handed longspear (1d6+3 vs. 1d8+4). Granted, not all monks are proficient with a 1d8 weapon (lonspear for my monk, longbow for Samuli's monk), but humans and elves and multiclassed monks will generally have something better to use.
I would like to see monk unarmed damage be used with monk weapons. 2 attacks would be ok but any more then 2 and that is clearly a full round action
I would like to see monk unarmed damage be used with monk weapons.
Yeah, me, too. And I'd like them to eliminate the make-believe "special monk weapons" and just make monks proficient with simple weapons, and able to use them with the flurry. (Example: a kama is a sickle. Period. There is no difference between the two).
By the classes theme it may be nice (they are those that seek physical, mental, and spiritual perfection) to have full attack progression but…well they already have more skill points than the fighter and several others and, of course, the best Saves. Considering the penalty is so minor I can’t see it as too much of a problem, unless you’re trying to hit something with a real high AC (and there are a surprising number of things that don’t have a very high AC). Giving them full base attack bonus may be a bit much; since the penalty vanishes altogether latter and the number of extra attacks goes to +2, you’d have a guy/gal/thing that makes attacks at a +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 baring a very weak race the guy/gal/thing would be one hell of a wrecking ball.
I've been playtesting a monk/sorcerer (still at level 1 so far) and I know Samuli has been playtesting a monk, too. One thing we both noticed: at low levels, the monk is often better off not doing a flurry of blows.
In Samuli's case, his monk was better off using a composite longbow (since he had higher Dex than Str, and a bow does better damage than a monk's fist).
In my case, my monk was better off using either a longspear or the claws granted by his Abyssal bloodline. In fact, the claws will be a strictly better bet until he becomes a level 4 monk!
Why not make the monk's flurry of blows good starting at level one?
Suggestion #1: Don't impose any penalty on the monk when he does a flurry of blows. If it's O.K. for a sorcerer to have two melee attacks that do 1d6 with no penalty, why not allow it for the monk?
...or...
Suggestion #2: Let the monk's unarmed attack do 1d8 damage starting at level 1, and go up from there.
Thoughts?
Flurry with no penalties seems as if it might compare a bit too favorably with two weapon fighting, and would encourage level dipping. A rogue with 1 level of monk for example and monk weapons like Kami, would be much better off than a straight rogue.
The problem with monks doesn't seem like it's the low starting damage for monk attacks, which isn't that bad. If you think of flurry as it compares to two weapon fighting, the monks unarmed attack (1d6 + Str mod on each hand) is pretty close to a longsword (1d8 + Str Mod) in one hand and a shortsword (1d6 + 1/2 Str Mod) in the other. With a 14 STR, both work out to an average of 11 damage, and the monk's attacks improve faster with higher STR. The monk's unarmed attacks only critting half as often hurts a bit though.
Of course, monks also have a lower BAB, tend to have a lower AC at low levels, and have to spread their stats around more than a lot of other classes. Some of the best options for upping melee damage, like power attack, are also off limits to them, because unarmed attacks always count as light/one-handed and their attack bonus is already too stretched to make the penalty from power attack palatable.
What monks really need isn't flurry with no penalties right away, which might be too good, what they need is some option that would let them fight higher AC single targets effectively. Grapple used to give monks a way to at least incapacitate one high AC foe, but with how badly nerfed grapple is at the moment, I don't see it being an attractive alternative, especially as it's a standard action instead of an attack action.
My suggestion would be to give monks an ability that they can use to up their total attack bonus a bit on rounds they choose not to flurry (which would force them to make some strategic choices). Perhaps something like....
Focused Strikes: When unarmored, a monk may strike with deadly accuracy, at the cost of speed. When making a full attack action, the monk may add his wisdom modifier to attack rolls and damage. Doing so requires intense focus and accuracy however, and the monk is unable to use flurry of blows or fight with two weapons in the same round in which he uses focused strikes. When using Focused Strikes, a monk may strike only with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. He may strike with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably, as desired.
By the classes theme it may be nice (they are those that seek physical, mental, and spiritual perfection) to have full attack progression but…[etc.]
I don't mind if monks don't have full BAB. But a monk should be the best there is at unarmed attacks, and unarmed attacks should be a monk's best option (maybe tied with another option, all IMO). Right now, a level 1 monk is worse than a sorcerer with claws (no flurry penalty) and is worse than a monk with a big melee weapon (e.g. longspear, bow, greatsword, whatever).
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Alternatively, you could allow the monk something like the Kuo-Toa Monasticism feat: an auto-hit on the second attack if the first attack hits (maybe at the cost of a ki point). Alternatively, allow them to perform a CMB with their second attack.
Another solution might to to allow the monk to permanently add his Wis modifier to attack rolls. That should provide the boost needed at low levels while still providing some improvement later in the career.
Another solution might to to allow the monk to permanently add his Wis modifier to attack rolls. That should provide the boost needed at low levels while still providing some improvement later in the career.
I considered that as well, but I can think of a lot of situations in which that could just be terribly broken and encourage level dipping (for example, a druid with one level of monk for the wis bonus to attack rolls.)
I would like to see monk unarmed damage be used with monk weapons.Yeah, me, too. And I'd like them to eliminate the make-believe "special monk weapons" and just make monks proficient with simple weapons, and able to use them with the flurry. (Example: a kama is a sickle. Period. There is no difference between the two).
well In my homebrew I gave different order each it's own list. each monk order would have 8 weapons that they were skilled in for that style.
I think that may be a good way to go a small list of 4 styles each with 6-8 weapons each. Also it sets a pattern for home games to make there own lists
Another solution might to to allow the monk to permanently add his Wis modifier to attack rolls. That should provide the boost needed at low levels while still providing some improvement later in the career.I considered that as well, but I can think of a lot of situations in which that could just be terribly broken and encourage level dipping (for example, a druid with one level of monk for the wis bonus to attack rolls.)
one way this could be done it to allow it only at 3rd or 4th level. that would stop some dipping
Monks, more than any other, vary in play depending on what race the character is. The current and, if I recall correctly, previous champ for the best monks core-only is the Half-Orc. With a +2 Strength and +2 Wisdom a half-orc is likely the most dangerous race for the monk class. On the hand a Halfling is a completely different case with different strengths to be used.
Baring Tome of Battle Monks are the best in unarmed combat, no one gets higher than 1d4 for their unarmed strikes (a sorcerer with claws is a different case, since they have Poor Attack Progression) and generally have to spend a feat in order to do that, at least the monk gets it for free. Though Jal Dorak may have the best idea; feats that use flurry of blows in different ways.
And well at the low-levels, you shouldn’t think of yourself as Jet-Lee just yet, a good question before asking is: how much is too much?
We should probably begin where its too good (potentially broken) and backtrack a bit to find even ground.
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[Focused Strikes]: When unarmored, a monk may strike with deadly accuracy, at the cost of speed. When making a full attack action, the monk may add his wisdom modifier to attack rolls and damage. Doing so requires intense focus and accuracy however, and the monk is unable to use flurry of blows or fight with two weapons in the same round in which he uses focused strikes. When using Focused Strikes, a monk may strike only with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. He may strike with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably, as desired
I like the [Focused Strikes], specially if we consider that a high Wis would give triple benefit for the Monk. Although if we give this ability to the Monk while keeping the penalty in FoB none will use FoB until level 9.
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Alternatively, you could allow the monk something like the Kuo-Toa Monasticism feat: an auto-hit on the second attack if the first attack hits (maybe at the cost of a ki point). Alternatively, allow them to perform a CMB with their second attack.
Another solution might to to allow the monk to permanently add his Wis modifier to attack rolls. That should provide the boost needed at low levels while still providing some improvement later in the career.
Why not give the Monk Weapon finesse at first level for his unarmed attacks, making it a DEX based attacker? after all Monks are as well trained with their unarmed attacks as a fighter with his sword, just different training focus ;)
Why not give the Monk Weapon finesse at first level for his unarmed attacks, making it a DEX based attacker? after all Monks are as well trained with their unarmed attacks as a fighter with his sword, just different training focus ;)
I like that, I'm not sure that it would be a solution for every monk, with how spread out their stats are a lot of monks aren't going to have much more dex than str, but it does level the playing field a bit between Half-Orcs and pretty much every other race that doesn't get +2 Str.
Instead of being a seperate ability this could easily be written into the monk Unarmed Attacks description.. something like...
"... A monk’s attacks may be with either fist or with elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes, and may apply either his Strength or Dexterity bonus on attack rolls (as Weapon Finesse)."
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Why not give the Monk Weapon finesse at first level for his unarmed attacks, making it a DEX based attacker? after all Monks are as well trained with their unarmed attacks as a fighter with his sword, just different training focus ;)
While some might scream at the notion, I would not only allow the Monk to get his Dex bonus to attack rolls with his Unarmed Attacks (but not his weapon attacks), I'd allow the Dex bonus to *stack* with his Strength bonus.
Given how stat-dependent a Monk already is, it's really only going to add +1 to +3 to the average Monk's Unarmed attack rolls, but that's still enough to compensate for some of the medium BAB woes and the 'Fluffy of Swish' problem.
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Why not give the Monk Weapon finesse at first level for his unarmed attacks, making it a DEX based attacker? after all Monks are as well trained with their unarmed attacks as a fighter with his sword, just different training focus ;)I like that, I'm not sure that it would be a solution for every monk, with how spread out their stats are a lot of monks aren't going to have much more dex than str, but it does level the playing field a bit between Half-Orcs and pretty much every other race that doesn't get +2 Str.
Instead of being a seperate ability this could easily be written into the monk Unarmed Attacks description.. something like...
"... A monk’s attacks may be with either fist or with elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes, and may apply either his Strength or Dexterity bonus on attack rolls (as Weapon Finesse)."
This may not solve it for all monks, but at the very least it reduce some of the spread out of the stats.
This spread out may very well be the biggest weakness of the class, needing to work out 4 ability is a killer.
I like the [Focused Strikes], specially if we consider that a high Wis would give triple benefit for the Monk. Although if we give this ability to the Monk while keeping the penalty in FoB none will use FoB until level 9.
Maybe, Flurry would still give them one more attack at their highest all the way up to 9. I can think of a lot of situations where a monk might have enough attack buffs (say, in a party with a bard and a cleric/druid) or the enemies might have a low enough AC (caster types) to make flurry worth it over Focused Strikes.
Compare a level 6 monk, with a 16 wis, 16 str, weapon focus, and an amulet of mighty fists +1...
Focused Strikes: +12 unarmed strike (1d8+7)
vs.
Flurry of Blows: +8/+8 unarmed strikes (1d8+4)
the +12 is usually going to be the better option, but add some bard buffs or a bless, or really any +to hit, and the flurry starts scaling slightly better.
A monk shouldn't always be better with unarmed strikes than with weapons. A first level wizard does more damage with a longsword than with most 1st level damage spells, but as their training advances they learn how to do more damage through their class abilities.
Weapons should be the best options for low level characters, that's why most people use weapons.
That said, we've had a monk in our Age of Worms playtest up to 5th level. He almost never hit anything when he flurried. But neither would a two weapon fighter, I think.
As for using different abilities to hit, there are already feats that let you use Wis bonus to melee, Wis bonus to ranged, and Dex bonus to melee. So if you want to drop Str as a requirement, it is possible. High str monks tend to do more damage, but that is the tradeoff.
As for using different abilities to hit, there are already feats that let you use Wis bonus to melee, Wis bonus to ranged, and Dex bonus to melee. So if you want to drop Str as a requirement, it is possible. High str monks tend to do more damage, but that is the tradeoff.
There may be feats in Wizards of the Coast splat books that allow Wis to melee and ranged attacks, but pathfinder shouldn't be balanced around WotC splatbooks. (And since they're not available as open content, trying to balance it that way might just be an impossible or nearly impossible task.)
Also, feats like Zen archery were a big part of why CoDzillas got so bad, and restricting the bonus to a class ability, especially something like a monk ability that doesn't function with armor or requires several levels of monk before it can be used helps keep that from happening again.
A monk shouldn't always be better with unarmed strikes than with weapons. A first level wizard does more damage with a longsword than with most 1st level damage spells, but as their training advances they learn how to do more damage through their class abilities.
For me, the acid test for a well-built class is this: If a class specializes in X, then using X should be their best option in most situations (at any level).
By this standard, the level 1 melee rogue and level 1 wizard both pass the test; most of the time they're better off sneak attacking or casting wizard spells (or using wizard school abilities).
And by this standard, the level 1 melee monk and level 1 paladin fail the test; a good portion of the time, they're worse off flurrying or wasting their one smite/day.
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A monk shouldn't always be better with unarmed strikes than with weapons. A first level wizard does more damage with a longsword than with most 1st level damage spells, but as their training advances they learn how to do more damage through their class abilities.For me, the acid test for a well-built class is this: If a class specializes in X, then using X should be their best option in most situations (at any level).
By this standard, the level 1 melee rogue and level 1 wizard both pass the test; most of the time they're better off sneak attacking or casting wizard spells (or using wizard school abilities).
And by this standard, the level 1 melee monk and level 1 paladin fail the test; a good portion of the time, they're worse off flurrying or wasting their one smite/day.
QFT.
We also need to take into account, that once you tried a Flurry, you are wide open for a Full Attack next round. So we need to weight the risk taken against the possible benefit of using Flurry.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Another solution might to to allow the monk to permanently add his Wis modifier to attack rolls. That should provide the boost needed at low levels while still providing some improvement later in the career.I considered that as well, but I can think of a lot of situations in which that could just be terribly broken and encourage level dipping (for example, a druid with one level of monk for the wis bonus to attack rolls.)
A class ability like this (Intuitive Attack is the feat from Book of Exalted Deeds that does this for simple weapons) should, for the sake of balance, follow the "duelist rule" (i.e., capped by class level) to avoid brokenification. Other than that, it's not a bad idea.
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I like the [Focused Strikes], specially if we consider that a high Wis would give triple benefit for the Monk. Although if we give this ability to the Monk while keeping the penalty in FoB none will use FoB until level 9.Maybe, Flurry would still give them one more attack at their highest all the way up to 9. I can think of a lot of situations where a monk might have enough attack buffs (say, in a party with a bard and a cleric/druid) or the enemies might have a low enough AC (caster types) to make flurry worth it over Focused Strikes.
Compare a level 6 monk, with a 16 wis, 16 str, weapon focus, and an amulet of mighty fists +1...
Focused Strikes: +12 unarmed strike (1d8+7)
vs.
Flurry of Blows: +8/+8 unarmed strikes (1d8+4)the +12 is usually going to be the better option, but add some bard buffs or a bless, or really any +to hit, and the flurry starts scaling slightly better.
after seen this comparison, it is evident that the Monk need an alternative to FoB, and a One Shot full Round Attack sort of thing might do it.
A class ability like this (Intuitive Attack is the feat from Book of Exalted Deeds that does this for simple weapons) should, for the sake of balance, follow the "duelist rule" (i.e., capped by class level) to avoid brokenification. Other than that, it's not a bad idea.Another solution might to to allow the monk to permanently add his Wis modifier to attack rolls. That should provide the boost needed at low levels while still providing some improvement later in the career.I considered that as well, but I can think of a lot of situations in which that could just be terribly broken and encourage level dipping (for example, a druid with one level of monk for the wis bonus to attack rolls.)
Heh, brokenification. Awesome. Now I have a word to describe just what my one min-maxing gamer does. Brokenified, Brokenificate... hehe, I'm gonna be getting some amusement out of this for a while, so don't mind me.
By the classes theme it may be nice (they are those that seek physical, mental, and spiritual perfection) to have full attack progression but…[etc.]I don't mind if monks don't have full BAB. But a monk should be the best there is at unarmed attacks, and unarmed attacks should be a monk's best option (maybe tied with another option, all IMO). Right now, a level 1 monk is worse than a sorcerer with claws (no flurry penalty) and is worse than a monk with a big melee weapon (e.g. longspear, bow, greatsword, whatever).
I don't think it's fair to compare the monk to the sorcerer's claws at first level. All other things being equal (abilities and such) the sorcerer's claws are strangely the best TWF option at 1st level. I'm not sure what to think of that but... every other TWF option at that level is at -2 to hit. I think the assumption is that they will be wielded by a sorcerer and the BAB will quickly fall off. Unfortunately it make for a very nice low level dip with rogue, monk, or barbarian.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Heh, brokenification. Awesome. Now I have a word to describe just what my one min-maxing gamer does. Brokenified, Brokenificate... hehe, I'm gonna be getting some amusement out of this for a while, so don't mind me.A class ability like this (Intuitive Attack is the feat from Book of Exalted Deeds that does this for simple weapons) should, for the sake of balance, follow the "duelist rule" (i.e., capped by class level) to avoid brokenification. Other than that, it's not a bad idea.Another solution might to to allow the monk to permanently add his Wis modifier to attack rolls. That should provide the boost needed at low levels while still providing some improvement later in the career.I considered that as well, but I can think of a lot of situations in which that could just be terribly broken and encourage level dipping (for example, a druid with one level of monk for the wis bonus to attack rolls.)
bows
I live to serve... :)
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A class ability like this (Intuitive Attack is the feat from Book of Exalted Deeds that does this for simple weapons) should, for the sake of balance, follow the "duelist rule" (i.e., capped by class level) to avoid brokenification. Other than that, it's not a bad idea.Another solution might to to allow the monk to permanently add his Wis modifier to attack rolls. That should provide the boost needed at low levels while still providing some improvement later in the career.I considered that as well, but I can think of a lot of situations in which that could just be terribly broken and encourage level dipping (for example, a druid with one level of monk for the wis bonus to attack rolls.)
Obviously could go one step further and limit it to Unarmed Strike and monk weapons, and even further that they only get it on Flurry of Blows.
I don't think it's fair to compare the monk to the sorcerer's claws at first level. All other things being equal (abilities and such) the sorcerer's claws are strangely the best TWF option at 1st level. I'm not sure what to think of that but... every other TWF option at that level is at -2 to hit. I think the assumption is that they will be wielded by a sorcerer and the BAB will quickly fall off. Unfortunately it make for a very nice low level dip with rogue, monk, or barbarian.
Whether the comparison is "fair" or not is irrelevant. I still think that the answer to "How can I be a better monk?" (i.e. an unarmed specialist) shouldn't be "Don't be a monk (at least not until you get better at it)." It doesn't really matter whether your non-monk weapon of choice is a pair of claws or a bow or a longspear.
I don't think it's fair to compare the monk to the sorcerer's claws at first level. All other things being equal (abilities and such) the sorcerer's claws are strangely the best TWF option at 1st level. I'm not sure what to think of that but... every other TWF option at that level is at -2 to hit. I think the assumption is that they will be wielded by a sorcerer and the BAB will quickly fall off. Unfortunately it make for a very nice low level dip with rogue, monk, or barbarian.Whether the comparison is "fair" or not is irrelevant. I still think that the answer to "How can I be a better monk?" (i.e. an unarmed specialist) shouldn't be "Don't be a monk (at least not until you get better at it)." It doesn't really matter whether your non-monk weapon of choice is a pair of claws or a bow or a longspear.
I was going to suggest that that's a problem that should be fixed on the other end (as in maybe sorcerer's claws shouldn't be quite so good at first level)... but then I realized that ultimately you have to assume that the other classes won't be changed.
In Samuli's case, his monk was better off using a composite longbow (since he had higher Dex than Str, and a bow does better damage than a monk's fist).
In my case, my monk was better off using either a longspear or the claws granted by his Abyssal bloodline.
I'll generalize this a bit.
There are three types of monks: 1) the ones with better Str than Dex, 2) the ones with better Dex than Str, 3) and the ones with equal scores in Str and Dex. Most weapon proficiencies are available for monks in a way. I'll assume few of the more common ones.
1) Use anything with a base damage of d8 or better. You're able to afford a masterwork weapon after a session or two. By then you're hitting more often, and doing more damage.
When you can't flurry longswords (e.g. elves) are better than fists all the way up till 7th level. Still on 7th if you didn't pick up Improved Natural Attack the longsword is better. Greatswords (e.g. through full-BAB multiclass) last longer (monk8 assuming INA, monk16 if not).
2) Longbows have d8 damage. Get a masterwork version. If you take Weapon Finesse the same rules apply to longbows than for longswords: longbow is your best option up till 7th level. If you didn't take Weapon Finesse, keep using the bow.
3) Use either #1, #2, or both.
Then there are a few oddities, such as the sorcerer claws mentioned but that's a problem in the sorcerer class, and thus will be discussed later.
The bottom line here is that monks are really not that good in dealing damage A) before monk7, and B) he still needs Improved Natural Attack for that. Prior to those a monk is quite poor a fighter. Or in other words: monk is not a damage dealer (and was never meant to be). Frankly, clerics are better front-line fighters than monks.
I'll discuss in other threads what else the monk isn't. And suggest what the monk could be.
I would only maybe allow monks to use their Wis for unarmed attacks and damage instead of Str or Dex. Maybe make a special Monk feat.
Or even give it as a class ability, but make it so it only works when the monk uses Flurry.
That would make the MAD a bit lesser for Monks, and as a result improve their Attack bonus and AC since they will be able to focus into Wis.
But still, I would not allow Wis to be used for CMB under any circumstances.