|
Now that's an improvement. Also, I like the fact that the Ranger AC scales by a level per level, but I now wonder (since the conversation in the other threads about Ranger and Druid AC) if -3 is too harsh (although I appreciate that it does give backward compatibility in the sense that it naturally delays the commencement of Ranger AC until 4th level, as in 3.5).
Bears are Int 2, and previously had Climb, Survival, and Swim as "class" skills using the Pathfinder conversion. Where do they stand now?
By the way, where is Survival in the skill list?
Very nice, like the fully detailed progression.
Abuse alert for share spells:
A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).
It should probaly specify:
A druid may cast spells from the class giving the companion on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).
So no Mage's Transformation for the kiddy!
|
I still think there needs to be about 50 other types of dinosaurs, of course. :)
Well if he's generic grouping it we can reduce that slightly, but its still missing, Hadrosaur, Ceratopsian, Ankylosaur (I so wanted a Paladin mounted on one :-), Sauropod etc,
and for the guy earlier the plural of Dinonychus is Dinonychus
Here’s what I worked on yesterday.
The baseline is the Druid animal companion. Just as with Jason’s idea, Ranger’s use Level-3 to calculate Druid level for their animal companion. Paladins and Wizards progress mostly the same as before.
Also like Jason’s idea, I combined the lists of available animals and special abilities. Each class retained a few unique special abilities for their animal companions.
What I was shooting for was all three classes starting at the same point but having their companions grow in different ways. Druids and Rangers needed a pure combat companion. Paladins needed a smarter combat companion. Wizards needed a smarter companion. And they all needed to be as backwards compatible as possible.
Here’s the list of available companions.
1st Level Companions (only available to Druids, Rangers and Wizards): Badger, Bat, Camel, Cat, Dire Rat, Dog, Eagle, Hawk, Heavy Horse, Light Horse, Lizard, Medium Shark, Medium Viper, Monkey, Owl, Pony, Porpoise, Rat, Raven, Riding Dog, Small Viper, Squid, Tiny Viper, Toad, Weasel, Wolf
5th Level Companions (Druids, Rangers and Wizards have their level reduces by 3 when looking at the improvement chart ): Ape, Black Bear, Bison, Boar, Cheetah, Constrictor Snake, Crocodile, Dire Badger, Dire Bat, Dire Weasel, Heavy Warhorse, Large Shark, Large Viper, Leopard, Monitor Lizard, Warpony, Wolverine
Here’s the three progression paths.
Druid/Ranger:
- Level----HD----Armor---STR/DEX----Tricks---Special-----------------------
- 1-2____+0____+0_____+0_______1____Alertness, Empathic Link, Share Spell
- 3-5____+2____+2_____+1_______2____Improved Evasion (Diminutive or Tiny increase one size)
- 6-8____+4____+4_____+2_______3____Devotion (Small increase one size)
- 9-11___+6____+6_____+3_______4____Multiattack
- 12-14__+8____+8_____+4_______5____(Medium increase one size)
- 15-17_+10___+10_____+5_______6____Spell Resistance
- 18-20_+12___+12_____+6_______7
Paladin:
- Level----HD----Armor----STR----INT----Special-----------------------
- _5_____+0____+0____+0____6____Alertness, Empathic Link, Share Spell
- 6-8____+2____+2____+1____7____Improved Evasion, Share Saving Throw
- 9-11___+4____+4____+2____8____Command Creatures of its Kind
- 12-14__+6____+6____+3____9
- 15-17__+8____+8____+4___10____Spell Resistance (Non-mount Medium increase one size)
- 18-20_+10___+10____+5___11
Wizard:
- Level----HD----Armor----DEX----INT----Special-----------------------
- 1-2____+0____+0____+0____6____Alertness, Empathic Link, Share Spell
- 3-5____+2____+2____+1____7____Deliver Touch Spells, Improved Evasion (Diminutive or Tiny increase one size)
- 6-8____+4____+4____+2____8____Speak with Master (Small increase one size)
- 9-11___+6____+6____+3____9____Scry on Familiar
- 12-14__+8____+8____+4___10____Spell Resistance (Medium increase one size)
- 15-17_+10___+10____+5___11
- 18-20_+12___+12____+6___12
All companions can still ‘speak’ with animals of their own kind. Druid and Wizard companions will only increase one size category ever. Paladin mounts never increase in size (since they arrive pre-sized for the Paladin). If a DM wants to let a Paladin have an adventuring pal instead of a mount they also only increase one size category ever.
To illustrate how this plays out we’ll look at a set of identical triplets. After years of being confused they each embark on a different adventuring career. One becomes a Druid, the second a Paladin, and the last a Wizard. Years later they meet up. It turns out they each took a Heavy Warhorse as their companion (funny thing, all three horse came from the same mare).
Here’s their companions:
Druid: 14d8+42 HP, AC: 27, STR: 23, DEX: 18, CON: 17. Aside from the common stuff, it can do 7 neat tricks on command, is Devoted to the Druid and can Multiattack.
Paladin: 14d8+42, AC: 24 (when it’s not wearing its barding), STR: 23, DEX: 13, CON: 17, INT: 11 (it might even be smarter than the Paladin). Aside from the common stuff, it’s pretty smart, makes Saving Throws much more often and can Command other horses in and out of battle.
Wizard: 14d8+42, AC:27 (higher if it had barding but it spends most of its time polymorphed or in the tower), STR: 18, DEX: 18, CON: 17, INT: 12. Aside from the common stuff, it’s a bit smarter than the Paladin’s horse, so smart that it can actually Talk with the Wizard, delivers Touch Spells and acts as a Scrying focus.
Of course there would be feats that let each class get better companions. I spent time yesterday looking through the SRD monsters (and starting the long process of calculating and comparing the companions for each class). I haven’t finished the math but on first blush these are the ideas I had for improved companions.
Druid and Ranger: Hippogriff, Shocker Lizard and Worg
Paladin: Giant Eagle, Giant Owl, Griffon, Hippogriff, Pegasus
Wizard: Arrowhawk, Blink Dog, Homunculus, Imp, Medium Elemental, Mephit, Psuedodragon, Quasit, Xorn
Some of the Wizards magical beasts could cross over to the Druid and Ranger. The only issue is that they have an INT above 2.
Also, within each campaign (or source book) the list of companions can be changed. The 1st level companions are up to CR 1. The 5th level are up to CR 2. The Improved are CR 1-4 (the 1’s would need to be upped a bit, the 3’s would be available at level 7 and the 4’s would be available at level 9).
I’m still trying to look at the numbers for a lot of this but I wanted to get it out there.
Oh yeah here’s a copy of the full table. It’s separated by commas. So just paste it into word. Highlight it all. Go to Table and select Convert Text to Table (make sure you pick Commas at the bottom).
,,,,,Druid/Ranger,,,,,Paladin,,,,,Wizard
Level,HD,NA,STR/DEX,BT,Special,HD,NA,STR,INT,Special,HD,NA,DEX,INT,Special
1,-,-,-,1,Alertness Empathic Link Share Spells,,,,,,-,-,-,6,Alertness Empathic Link Share Spells
2,-,-,-,1, ,,,,,,-,-,-,6,
3,+2,+2,+1,2,Improved Evasion,,,,,,+2,+2,+1,7,Deliver Touch Spells Improved Evasion
4,+2,+2,+1,2, ,,,,,,+2,+2,+1,7,
5,+2,+2,+1,2, ,-,-,-,6,Alertness Empathic Link Share Spells,+2,+2,+1,7,
6,+4,+4,+2,3,Devotion,+2,+2,+1,7,Improved Evasion Share Saving Throws,+4,+4,+2,8,Speak with Master
7,+4,+4,+2,3,,+2,+2,+1,7, ,+4,+4,+2,8,Speak with Master
8,+4,+4,+2,3,,+4,+2,+2,7, ,+4,+4,+2,8,
9,+6,+6,+3,4,Multiattack,+4,+4,+2,8,Command Creatures of its Kind,+6,+6,+3,9,Scry on Familiar
10,+6,+6,+3,4,,+4,+4,+2,8, ,+6,+6,+3,9,
11,+6,+6,+3,4,,+4,+4,+2,8, ,+6,+6,+3,9,
12,+8,+8,+4,5,,+6,+6,+3,9,,+8,+8,+4,10,Spell Resistance
13,+8,+8,+4,5,,+6,+6,+3,9,,+8,+8,+4,10,
14,+8,+8,+4,5,,+6,+6,+3,9,,+8,+8,+4,10,
15,+10,+10,+5,6,Spell Resistance,+8,+8,+4,10,Spell Resistance,+10,+10,+5,11,
16,+10,+10,+5,6, ,+8,+8,+4,10, ,+10,+10,+5,11,
17,+10,+10,+5,6, ,+8,+8,+4,10, ,+10,+10,+5,11,
18,+12,+12,+6,7,,+10,+10,+5,11,,+12,+12,+6,12,
19,+12,+12,+6,7,,+10,+10,+5,11,,+12,+12,+6,12,
20,+12,+12,+6,7,,+10,+10,+5,11,,+12,+12,+6,12,
HD = Bonus Hit Dice NA = Bonus Natural Armor BT = Bonus Tricks
Cheers
Bears are Int 2, and previously had Climb, Survival, and Swim as "class" skills using the Pathfinder conversion. Where do they stand now?
By the way, where is Survival in the skill list?
Where did you find the pathfinder conversion for the bear? I didn't know animals got class skills.
I agree, animals should get Survival. Alternately maybe animals with the scent ability should be given the ability to track with a survival bonus equal to their HD.
Hrmmm...what kind of stats would you be thinking for a bison (surprisingly, this matters in my game for more than one player)? Also, what kind of stats would we see for things like a dire bat?
Personally, I'd be much obliged if we'd see this system expanded beyond what we get in core. Popular options in games I've played are things like small dinosaurs (swindlespitter is cool), flying dinos, giant birds of prey, etc. etc. I know that the PRPG is mostly an update of core, but this system seems so easy to expand, it'd almost be a pity if you didn't.
(Also, my previous pounce comment is owed to the fact that, as I said, I am uneducated and apparently unable to read).
I still think there needs to be about 50 other types of dinosaurs, of course. :)Well if he's generic grouping it we can reduce that slightly, but its still missing, Hadrosaur, Ceratopsian, Ankylosaur (I so wanted a Paladin mounted on one :-), Sauropod etc,
and for the guy earlier the plural of Dinonychus is Dinonychus
It's not deinonychuses, deinonychussies, or deinonychi? (I like the last one, it sounds like an amish name) heh heh heh
|
Thoughts;
1) There should be a feat or higher level class ability where a Paladin's mount becomes a Celestial creature. Maybe even a higher, higher level version where it becomes a Half-Celestial or something...
2) Armor Proficiency is a must. Paladin Warhorse gotta have barding! Heck, at 3rd level, my Druids Riding Dogs get Chain Shirt barding (using their bonus feat for 3 HD to get Armor Proficiency (light)).
3) Skills should include Perception and Survival for most animals, Stealth for many and Intimidate for most predators (and many herbivores, such as rams and stags, who spend a lot of time posturing, rather than actually fighting).
4) Vermin should have Int 1 and be trainable. Regardless of how smart and trainable real-world insects and arachnids are, this is a D&D fantasy world, where giant-spider-riding dark elves and dwarves and whatever are a staple.
5) Feats similar to the Paladin's 'celestial companion' option should probably be available to allow for other special companions, such as a Griffon (Magical Beast) or Nightmare (Outsider), for those Paladins, Rangers and Druids who play outside of the box.
Where did you find the pathfinder conversion for the bear? I didn't know animals got class skills.
There are conversion rules in the Beta book(p299) The skills they had in 3.x normally count as "class" skills, IIRC.
Hmmm, well, after reading everything carefully, my only problem with it is that a few of the animal companions are significantly better than the others. Just about anything that becomes large at level 4/7 ends up with better stats than the other types. Because of this Ape and Large Cat are much, much better than the other animals. The cat ends up with _very_ impressive stats, pounce, improved grab, etc. and the ape has similar stats, combined with a few tricks and some equipment it could do some serious damage. Edit: Oh, and the ape has 10 ft. reach, where almost all the other animals do not without animal growth.
Director of Games
|
Couple of points...
1. I am going to make some updates to the original post, adding survival to the skill list and armor proficiency feats to the feats list.
2. I am quite open to expanding the paladin's mount by adding some bonuses... but I think I will do this as part of my paladin changes. More to come on this soon.
3. The system is meant to be easily expandable. There is a pretty simple guidelines to create these companions, but it does require some "finesse". If the animal is on the first level list, add it directly. If that animal has a larger form, it upgrades at 4th level (if appropriate) or 7th level (if the CR is quite a bit higher). If the animal is on the existing 4th or 7th level lists, it can be added by downgrading its size (in most cases). If on the 4th level list, it sizes up at 4th level. Ditto for the 7th. That is not everything that goes into this process, but it is close.
4. There are some companions that I feel are maybe a little too good and might need to be scaled back for the low levels. I am curious to see which ones the community thinks that is. I feel that some of the companions suffer from the opposite problem and are too weak.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I feel that some of the companions suffer from the opposite problem and are too weak.
Allowing multiple ACs for the weaker ones might be a solution. Adds paperwork, but there is some payoff to, for instance, a flock of birds or a pack of wild dogs.
|
Director of Games
|
Allowing multiple ACs for the weaker ones might be a solution. Adds paperwork, but there is some payoff to, for instance, a flock of birds or a pack of wild dogs.I feel that some of the companions suffer from the opposite problem and are too weak.
I was strongly considering this idea as a feat of some sort, but there might be some room to make than one of the upgrades that you get as you gain levels. I will consider.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'm curious: why so few skill points for the Animal Companions? Shouldn't they be gaining 1 skill point per HD? Or are these supposed to be extra skill points that they gain as they advance?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Jason, I'm wondering if the "Skills" entry needs some revision.
In the introduction it states that AC can take any skill, then in the actual entry it mentions only a specific few skills. I understand the aim (to provide a list of class skills) but the wording makes it seem like it is only those skills, which contradicts the normal skill system.
Time Travel: I had a few minutes of trouble with the table as well. Hmm.
Currently, that is my thought. Animals should not have the entire skill list at their disposal. Creatures with an Int that low cannot speak, let along have a grasp of Knowledge (nobility). That said, I think this is certainly up to debate. Since I am letting the PC pick the skills, I wanted to avoid really strange choices.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Are these considered "class skills" for the animal - i.e., that they get +3 on them when they take their first rank?
|
Director of Games
|
I'm curious: why so few skill points for the Animal Companions? Shouldn't they be gaining 1 skill point per HD? Or are these supposed to be extra skill points that they gain as they advance?
If you check the number against their HD, that is exactly the number they are gaining.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Since animal companions with an Int higher than 3 can take any skills, can we assume that they can choose any feat as well because of higher Int?Yes you can. I would also point out that this list is by no means definitive. There are certainly other feats from other sources that would make for perfectly good choice. Although I am wondering if we need some common sense language added, restricting animal companions from taking feats like Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kukri....
Thoughts
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think the language you have in there is already guidance enough, though you could certainly stipulate that they may not take weapon proficiency feats or any feats that require manipulative digits - no, not even for monkeys and apes!
As for feats, a few quick notes:
1. Odd that ACs could take Iron Will and Lightning Ref but not Great Fortitude. An oversight?
2. I would suggest perhaps adding Improved Grapple to the animal feat list, and maybe Improved Trip. It may be enough that animals who can trip and grab can do that as a special ability and let it end there, but I could certainly see other kinds of animals using something like that.
All in all, I like it. I also like the modeling of "yes, you can get a fancier thing with an Improved Mount/AC feat" idea. That way, the paladins who want unicorns or pegasi or bearhounds or whatever can still get those, or a celestial mount (to get SR and resistances and such).
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Allowing multiple ACs for the weaker ones might be a solution. Adds paperwork, but there is some payoff to, for instance, a flock of birds or a pack of wild dogs.I feel that some of the companions suffer from the opposite problem and are too weak.
I was strongly considering this idea as a feat of some sort, but there might be some room to make than one of the upgrades that you get as you gain levels. I will consider.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Viva la Beastmaster! Dar needs a bird. And a tiger. And two ferrets! The mythic archetype must be honored!!!
So....how exactly would we stat out a bison? I guess I'm not exactly picking up the pattern.
|
|
Man when I read this at first I had a vision of my Half-Orc Paladin riding a Boar into combat, then I realized that the boar stops at medium size and thus is not a suitable mount for a medium creature.
Is there either going to be a feat that will allow getting dire versions of your animal companion (that way I can have a large boar) or else add enlarge animal to the paladins spell list, so that I can complete this vision?
So I've been looking over the animal companions and crunching some numbers. Apes and Large Cats are still the most unbalanced (compared to the other animal companions at least, still mulling over the question of whether the ACs are balanced as a whole.) I thought I'd work out some realistic stats to see how they'd play, and to help nail down what some of the problems might be. I chose level 15 because that's the level of the group I'm running a playtest for. I didn't include the possibility of equipping the companion with magic items because it would have added too much complexity, though, honestly, most druids probably would, to some extent.
Cat, Large (level 15)
Size: Large
HD: 12d8+63 (99 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 32 (+5 Dex, +13 natural armor, -1 size, +3 Studded Leather Barding, +2 Dodge)
BAB: +9
CMB: +19
Attack: Claw +17 (1d6+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +17 (1d8+9) and bite +15 (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake (1d8+4)
Special Qualities: Devotion, evasion, improved evasion, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +6
Ability Scores: Str 28, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Acrobatics +18, Perception +6, Stealth +9
Feats: Dodge, Light Armor Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Toughness, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Improved Natural Attack (Rake)
Pounce (Ex): If a large cat charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a large cat must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +17 melee, damage 1d8+4.
Toss on Greater Magic Fang and Animal Growth, which is pretty likely for a druid's companion, and you get...
Cat, Large (level 15)
Size: Huge
HD: 12d8+87 (123 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 32 (+4 Dex, +15 natural armor, -2 size, +3 Studded Leather Barding, +2 Dodge)
BAB: +9
CMB: +24
Attack: Claw +24 (2d6+17)
Full Attack: 2 claws +24 (2d6+17) and bite +18 (2d6+10)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake (2d6+10)
Special Qualities: Devotion, evasion, improved evasion, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +6
Ability Scores: Str 36, Dex 18, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Acrobatics +17, Perception +6, Stealth +8
Feats: Dodge, Light Armor Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Toughness, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Improved Natural Attack (Rake)
Pounce (Ex): If a large cat charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a large cat must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +24 melee, damage 2d6+10.
Compare that to one of the weaker ACs, like say, Pony. Same level, same buffs, same everything, you end up with:[/b]
Pony (level 15)
Size: Medium
HD: 12d8+63 (99 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 34 (+3 Dex, +14 natural armor, +5 Breastplate Barding, +2 Dodge)
BAB: +9
CMB: +19
Attack: Hoof +24 (1d3+14)
Full Attack: Hooves +24/+24/+19 (1d3+14)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Devotion, evasion, improved evasion, low Light Vision, scent, war Trained
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +9
Ability Scores: Str 30, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Acrobatics +16, Perception +5, Stealth +7
Feats: Dodge, Light Armor Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Medium Armor Proficiency, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Hoof)
Still not terrible, but nowhere near the power level of the large cat. The Pounce/Rake/Improved Grab abilities are a huge part of why the cat ends up so nuts, that and that it's large instead of medium. If the cat didn't get such a huge boost to it's Strength for going from Medium to Large, it would be a lot more appropriate. Also, if the effects of animal growth were toned down just a bit, animal companions in general would be much more balanced.
I'm curious: why so few skill points for the Animal Companions? Shouldn't they be gaining 1 skill point per HD? Or are these supposed to be extra skill points that they gain as they advance?If you check the number against their HD, that is exactly the number they are gaining.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
*facepalm*
I was looking at the wrong column.I blame the DayQuil! LOL
I don't really have a problem with some companions being better than others. How ridiculous is it if a riding dog is as powerful as a tiger? A perfectly balanced system is flavorless and boring (4e *cough*). What I do like is that they're streamlined so they're at least close in power, which is something that appears in this system. I could see pounce being moved up, but it's not so ridiculous that it needs to be gotten rid of, and it's a bit silly for a MM tiger to get pounce when the druid's doesn't.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
FWIW the Crocodile should have a 7th level advancement to large size. Crocodile can get to be as big as a horse if I need to link you some real life images I will.
Shoot, Nile crocs are WAY bigger than a horse.
I'd like to see as possible animal comps/mounts:
1. A bull/bison
2. A stag/moose/elk
3. A boar that can get up to large (so humans can ride it)
I could also get with the vermin concept as well.
|
So....how exactly would we stat out a bison? I guess I'm not exactly picking up the pattern.
I would probably go something like this.
Bison
Starting statistics: Size Large; Speed 40ft.; AC +4 Natural Armor; Attack Gore (1d8); Ability scores Str 18,Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4; Special Qualities low light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2
|
|
FWIW the Crocodile should have a 7th level advancement to large size. Crocodile can get to be as big as a horse if I need to link you some real life images I will.Shoot, Nile crocs are WAY bigger than a horse.
Shhh, you and I know that but I don't want to scare off the rest of them. Seriously though even alligators in the SE united states have been found that easily have a couple 100lbs over a normal horse. In fact just recently we had one that was captured when pictured it was being held by its tail and tail to nose it was twice the size of the man standing next to it. I can't remember it's weight but there is no way you could qualify it as a medium creature. And since it has a real life corolary it should definitely be reflected in mid level dnd ACs
I'd like to see as possible animal comps/mounts:1. A bull/bison
2. A stag/moose/elk
3. A boar that can get up to large (so humans can ride it)I could also get with the vermin concept as well.
Jason memorize this list and love it, love it I say, LOVE IT!
3. A boar that can get up to large (so humans can ride it)
SOMEONE'S been watching Princess Mononoke! LOL
Also: any objections to having Elephants on the list? Start them off at Medium, then Large, and then finally scale them up to Huge?
|
|
3. A boar that can get up to large (so humans can ride it)SOMEONE'S been watching Princess Mononoke! LOL
Also: any objections to having Elephants on the list? Start them off at Large, and then scale them up to Huge?
You could even start them off at medium, granted that means at first level your AC is a baby elephant, but still it could be done.
Shhh, you and I know that but I don't want to scare off the rest of them. Seriously though even alligators in the SE united states have been found that easily have a couple 100lbs over a normal horse. In fact just recently we had one that was captured when pictured it was being held by its tail and tail to nose it was twice the size of the man standing next to it. I can't remember it's weight but there is no way you could qualify it as a medium creature. And since it has a real life corolary it should definitely be reflected in mid level D&D ACs
Truth be told, you could have a Small -> Medium -> Large advancement with Alligators. And Tail Slap should probably go altogether. Alligators use their tails for swimming and to help them with their classic "death roll" - you're better off going with a single strong bite attack.
|
|
For those that were having issues with the table formatting, or just want something a bit easier to reference, I threw everything into a PDF, with similar formatting to the main pathfinder book, bookmarks, etc.
I'll do my best to keep it up to date with any changes that come down the line. Hope it helps!
The pdf can be downloaded here. (http://rapidshare.com/files/152563499/Animal_Companion.pdf.html)
By the way I just wanted to say that this is gorgeous, thank you, I'm printing it out for my game group.
Anyone know if this was done for the barbarian re-write?
|
|
* A horse’s bite is a treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the camel’s Str bonus on the damage roll.
Hey Jason, why do horses and ponies get half the Camel's str bonus to their bite ;)
Broggidan it says the same thing in your beautiful mock up.
And for that matter why is a camel's bite a secondary attack at half str when it is the only attack they get?
|
Director of Games
|
* A horse’s bite is a treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the camel’s Str bonus on the damage roll.Hey Jason, why do horses and ponies get half the Camel's str bonus to their bite ;)
Broggidan it says the same thing in your beautiful mock up.
And for that matter why is a camel's bite a secondary attack at half str when it is the only attack they get?
That is a mistake, it should be half the horse's Str bonus. Camels and horses have this restriction (currently), but warhorses loose this penalty.
Corrections will be made...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Allowing multiple ACs for the weaker ones might be a solution. Adds paperwork, but there is some payoff to, for instance, a flock of birds or a pack of wild dogs.I was strongly considering this idea as a feat of some sort, but there might be some room to make than one of the upgrades that you get as you gain levels. I will consider.
Hm. What do you think of the AC themselves taking the Leadership Feat, or a modified form of it?
In any case, it would be interesting if you could "split up" the total AC Hit Die, so instead of one 12HD Wolf, you could have 6 2HD Wolves, for example.|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
So....how exactly would we stat out a bison? I guess I'm not exactly picking up the pattern.I would probably go something like this.
Bison
Starting statistics: Size Large; Speed 40ft.; AC +4 Natural Armor; Attack Gore (1d8); Ability scores Str 18,Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4; Special Qualities low light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2
For bulls/bison/buffalo, you might add with the 4th level advancement a powerful charge ability (x2 damage with gore attack on a charge).
That or a free Improved Bull Rush feat.
Cuz, yknow, it is a BULL after all!
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
I like this system, but I don't like how it throws backwards compatibility to the wind. Any animals in splatbooks will need to be converted even more, which I think is a bad thing. I would probably still use the system, though.
I don't think so for one simple reason:
It begins with the postulate that animal companions are NOT regular animals. They are unique, specially adaptable animals that are infused with eeerie powers through the magic of whatever it is that makes PC classes so darn tough and vicious. Just as PC adventurers are not regular humans, so too animal comps are not regular animals (or even regular magical beasts).
|
|
So....how exactly would we stat out a bison? I guess I'm not exactly picking up the pattern.I would probably go something like this.
Bison
Starting statistics: Size Large; Speed 40ft.; AC +4 Natural Armor; Attack Gore (1d8); Ability scores Str 18,Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4; Special Qualities low light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2
For bulls/bison/buffalo, you might add with the 4th level advancement a powerful charge ability (x2 damage with gore attack on a charge).
That or a free Improved Bull Rush feat.
Cuz, yknow, it is a BULL after all!
Agreed.
|
|
* A horse’s bite is a treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the camel’s Str bonus on the damage roll.Hey Jason, why do horses and ponies get half the Camel's str bonus to their bite ;)
Broggidan it says the same thing in your beautiful mock up.
And for that matter why is a camel's bite a secondary attack at half str when it is the only attack they get?
That is a mistake, it should be half the horse's Str bonus. Camels and horses have this restriction (currently), but warhorses loose this penalty.
Corrections will be made...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Does this mean that a 15th level druid or Paladin with a Camel as his AC will never get a bite attack as a primary attack or at least at his str bonus? seems like camels wind up on the weak side in the long run.
For bulls/bison/buffalo, you might add with the 4th level advancement a powerful charge ability (x2 damage with gore attack on a charge). That or a free Improved Bull Rush feat.
Or... Trample!?
|
|
For bulls/bison/buffalo, you might add with the 4th level advancement a powerful charge ability (x2 damage with gore attack on a charge). That or a free Improved Bull Rush feat.Or... Trample!?
Trample they can get by chosing it as their feat. Personally I'd much rather they get powerful charge, it makes sense for the animal and isn't replicable with feats. I feel the same about improved bullrush.
It seems like this new system is pretty much like the old system except that it prevents players from getting Huge versions of certain animals. Or is it just the DayQuil talkin' again?
|
|
Agreed.So....how exactly would we stat out a bison? I guess I'm not exactly picking up the pattern.I would probably go something like this.
Bison
Starting statistics: Size Large; Speed 40ft.; AC +4 Natural Armor; Attack Gore (1d8); Ability scores Str 18,Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4; Special Qualities low light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2
For bulls/bison/buffalo, you might add with the 4th level advancement a powerful charge ability (x2 damage with gore attack on a charge).
That or a free Improved Bull Rush feat.
Cuz, yknow, it is a BULL after all!
I was thinking that as well, but was thinking it might be too powerful and should be reserved for a feat, but now that I look at it written, I think it works. A good feat would probably be improved charge to increase damage to x3.