Paladins should “Roll”play like they “role”play! Currently they do not!
The simple truth about the paladin is that he is outclassed in what he is supposed to be able to do, fight evil! For simple ability you can take a fighter and fight evil better than the paladin can. Now saying this I agree that many of the paladin abilities make him capable of standing against evil…just not posing any real threat to that evil.
That is where I would like to focus this topic. There is a huge thread started by Lastknightleft where he and I and Robert Brambley have done some extensive talking about how to fix Smite Evil and other parts of the paladin.
Now I do not want to take credit for some of these ideas as I know Lastknight or Robert may have said them first. And there were a few other people who were not as active in that thread who had some great ideas too. So with that said here is what we talked about.
Saves: The only discrepancy here is the suggestion that Paladins should have a good will save. They are casters and are designated as a Holy Warrior, someone who should face the worst of the worst without fear and unwavering conviction in his purpose. I know that Divine Grace really helps in this area but it still seems weak for the righteous warriors and bringers of justice. It may be a good idea to raise Divine Grace to level 3 or 4 to discourage level dipping.
Detect Evil: Generally people thought that this took to long and was usually disregarded as something used during combat. This should be addressed. Paladins SHOULD check to see if subjects are evil before attacking them (part of their code). There has been a penalty suggested for attacking with smite without detecting first (view below).
Some suggestions to DE were that it become used as a swift or move action. It was also said that it could be optimized to let you know which individuals are in fact evil after one standard action of concentration. I think these are good suggestions though I would still suggest taking the time in combat to detect for evil as a positive role play mechanic no matter what.
Lay on Hands: A much debated topic. Some are happy with the change and some are not. The adaptability of LoH at later levels makes it more appealing and those changes have generally been heralded as positive. It is the “quick” heal portion of the ability that has come under scrutiny. It does work well as a stabilizing heal or out of combat heal, though many would like to be able to use it as a quick “dump” heal for paladins during combat. This helps paladins stay in the fight and as with any class, staying in the fight helps their group stay in the fight.
The suggested change to this is that the paladin be able to use a number of “uses” of his LoH points per action = to his Charisma Mod. Example is a lvl 5 paladin with a 16 Charisma may use 3 uses of his LoH at once for a 15 pt heal. This actually allows the paladin to use his LoH for enough of a heal so that it would be worth a full standard action.
The simplest change is to give 1+charisma mod smites a day to start with. This allows the paladin to use his smites to actually help in combats rather than “saving” them for the BBEG that you may never see. I think this would be a positive change but I would go a step further. Someone else suggested that the smite itself be X 2 paladin level to damage, I agree with this. I would also add that at some point the smite damage becomes good aligned for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction (possibly lvl 7) and later on criticals are auto confirmed (possibly lvl 10). This makes the smite ability something that actually causes some effect to the game. Another big note was that it should be added that a smite is not “lost” on a miss.
The next change is the only completely new ability that I would add to the paladin. Robert Brambley and I butted heads on this one for awhile until he came up with the solution of making it a different ability. My original fix was to make smite an always on effect with +charisma mod to hit and half paladin level to damage. We found that this would cause problems with backwards comp and broken builds. So Robert said that it should not be smite but another Divine power, so I came up with this.
Lightbringer: A paladin is a destroyer of evil in all it’s forms, he tries to bring light to the world by destroying all that would do harm to it. He does not only smite the worst of the worst but any being that harbors evil in it’s heart. Thus every attack a paladin makes against an evil creature, he gains his charisma bonus to hit and half his paladin level to damage (rounded down). This ability is unaffected by any feat or ability that would modify the way the Paladin’s Smite Evil ability works. This ability can be “turned off” if the paladin is attacking a creature that is not evil. Also if the paladin uses one of his daily Smite Evil attempts this ability does not stack with that one for that attack. This ability would not be gained until level 5 to prevent level dipping. Robert has a modified version of this that he likes more but I will let him talk about that one. The point here was to keep the paladin on par with the damage output of other melee classes when fighting evil. We were concerned that the paladin would also have a heard time hitting the worst or highest CR DDD’s (Dragons, Devils and Demons). With this ability the paladin stays in the fight the whole time, not just until his smites run out. Fighters have this bonus to hit and damage all the time and with some of the new proposed rules to fighter damage this may be even BIGGER. Barbarians have it when they rage (which is a LOT), Rangers have it against their favored enemies, Rogues gain Backstab anytime they are flanking. No reason to deny the paladin the ability to fight the enemies he was MADE to fight, this ability brings the paladin’s fighting capabilities up to par with these other classes, yet only when fighting evil.
Also I think that when a Paladin is using Smite or Lightbringer he should be able to crit undead and evil outsiders (if they were immune to crits). This is his area of expertise, these are the things he was MEANT to fight. The damage a paladin deals does not come from his arm alone. It comes from his conviction and faith in what he is doing, the holy powers that guide his purpose.
Lastly there should be a penalty for attempting to smite or use Lightbringer on a creature that is NOT evil. If the paladin attempts to smite or use Lightbringer on a creature that is not evil then he looses the use of both abilities for 24 hours. Continued abuse of these powers could result in the abilities being removed for a longer period of time or being stripped of all paladin powers as you may have violated your code of conduct.
Caster Level: Some have said that paladins should have full caster level. I personally agree with this or think that it should be character level – 3 (like channel energy).
Channel Positive Energy: I think everyone is basically very happy with this as I have not seen it discussed.
Spells: A small discussion was brought up about possibly making paladins spells spontaneous. I think this would be a good change but not a necessity, as I don’t think spells define the paladin.
Special Mount or Bonded Weapon: No problem with the mount but a few complaints about the bonded weapon. I feel that this should be more available. In its current state it keeps the paladin in the “one trick pony” area. This is a good option though it should allow the paladin more diversity. Possibly active a number of times per day = to charisma mod for paladin level of minutes or vice versa (number of times per day = paladin level, for Charisma mod minutes).
Auras: Not much discussion on this and people seem to think they are all positive, I have to agree.
Code of Conduct and LG alignment: Paladins are the ONLY class with these restrictions. Yes they do provide a great “role” play mechanic and give the paladin “character”, but they are still restrictions. No change needs to be made here, though people need to remember that this is here for a reason! Some of the changes suggested may seem a little to much at first but please take the paladins code into consideration before judging them to harshly. Let them be what they were made to be; hunters of the truly wicked and defenders of the innocent.
I am going to make a separate post for Smite Evil and Lightbringer because I feel that these are the two main changes that would help the paladin. I want to discuss the class in full but those are my main focus. I hope many of you that have spoken up in the other paladin threads I have read take the time to express your opinions here.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'm going to have to disagree on the detect evil point. I don't think a paladin can only attack those who are evil, nor should they give up time in combat to check for that (even if it's only a swift action.) For instance, a paladin can save a town from a rampaging dire boar. It's not evil, but it is a threat to a good community. Another example would be a CN or TN criminal. If the paladin catches them in the act of a crime, they or finds evidence that they committed a crime, the Paladin should be able to attack and/or confront them without detecting if they're evil, since they're not evil.
True, a paladin shouldn't wantonly attack with lethal force for any old crime. If they see a starving urchin pick a pocket, they should use non-lethal attacks, grapple, trip, etc. and try to save the poor kid from a path that could lead to evil. Decisions like that should be based on the circumstances though, and not whether or not the target in question detects as evil.
Now, having said all of that, I think it would be great to have a feat that paladins could take to upgrade their detect evil power to be a swift action, or even an always on ability, with requirements that would require at least 8th level or so before being able to select.
I'm going to have to disagree on the detect evil point. I don't think a paladin can only attack those who are evil, nor should they give up time in combat to check for that (even if it's only a swift action.) For instance, a paladin can save a town from a rampaging dire boar. It's not evil, but it is a threat to a good community. Another example would be a CN or TN criminal. If the paladin catches them in the act of a crime, they or finds evidence that they committed a crime, the Paladin should be able to attack and/or confront them without detecting if they're evil, since they're not evil.
I think you have me wrong here. Of course paladins should be able to fight things that are "bad" but not "evil". I think the main reasoning behind editing Detect evil is for smite evil. Before you use that ability (or lightbringer) you should be sure that what you are attacking is in fact evil. Not only that but as I proposed there should be some form of penalty for using your divine ability to strike down the wicked (smite evil and lightbringer) on something that is not truly evil.
Thank you for posting, though I do have to disagree about using a feat slot for detecting evil.
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Saves: The only discrepancy here is the suggestion that Paladins should have a good will save. They are casters and are designated as a Holy Warrior, someone who should face the worst of the worst without fear and unwavering conviction in his purpose. I know that Divine Grace really helps in this area but it still seems weak for the righteous warriors and bringers of justice. It may be a good idea to raise Divine Grace to level 3 or 4 to discourage level dipping.
I personally think it's fine where it is, I know some people dip to get it, but I don't think it's a prevalent enough problem to actually need a level adjust (especially if his combat abilities don't get upgraded, cause as it stands between lvls. 1-3 it's the only decent ability he gets in combat.
I also want to say I love your suggestion of a good will save.
Detect Evil:
Some suggestions to DE were that it become used as a swift or move action. It was also said that it could be optimized to let you know which individuals are in fact evil after one standard action of concentration. I think these are good suggestions though I would still suggest taking the time in combat to detect for evil as a positive role play mechanic no matter what.
To clarify the "fix" was to move concentration to a move action so that you could after your first round of detect actually attack while focusing so that you didn't loose 3 rounds to find out if the people attacking are evil. if that wasn't enough then have the actual detect evil activation become a swift action as well that way you don't loose anything but two move actions.
Lay on Hands: A much debated topic. Some are happy with the change and some are not. The adaptability of LoH at later levels makes it more appealing and those changes have generally been heralded as positive. It is the “quick” heal portion of the ability that has come under scrutiny. It does work well as a stabilizing heal or out of combat heal, though many would like to be able to use it as a quick “dump” heal for paladins during combat. This helps paladins stay in the fight and as with any class, staying in the fight helps their group stay in the fight.
The suggested change to this is that the paladin be able to use a number of “uses” of his LoH points per action = to his Charisma Mod. Example is a lvl 5 paladin with a 16 Charisma may use 3 uses of his LoH at once for a 15 pt heal. This actually allows the paladin to use his LoH for enough of a heal so that it would be worth a full standard action.
Another easy implemented fix was to merely change the amount healed to level x2
Smite Evil:
I'll save my suggestions for your other thread.
As to the rest of the issues you adress I will hold off on making a suggestion till I've actually gotten into playtesting.
Thank you for taking the time to post and clarify Lastknight :)
To "fix" the paladin...
Saves: give us a good will save.
Detect Evil: Make it not take so long.
Smite Evil/Lightbringer: Modify Smite in the ways suggested and add Lightbringer (or Robert's Divine Might) the the class abilities.
Lay on Hands: Allow it to be used as a swift action or X2 paladin level per use (as Lastknight said).
Caster lvl: Give paladins full caster level.
Code of Conduct: dont forget that it is there and that it should matter!
I agree wholeheartedly with this comment. This is integral to the paladin and it must have meaning in the game. In 3/3.5 there is some diminishment of how special the paladin is supposed to be. In 1/2e they were very rare because of the ability pre-requisites and also because they were very challenging to play and many players aren't up to the challenge of following the "Code". But paladin characters who do roleplay well and adhere to the code should be rewarded. I don't think being a mediocre warrior with a special save bonus, a few smites, some immunities et al. is reward enough. I'm in full support of the effort to advance the paladin up a few tiers and make them fun and meaningful to play again.To "fix" the paladin...
Code of Conduct: dont forget that it is there and that it should matter!
QFT....QFT!!!!!
Thank you for the post!
I really hope these efforts do not go overlooked. We are really onto something here and I think we have a chance to save what is mine, and I believe many peoples favorite class!
Paladin's bring such a hindrance to groups they are with because of their alignment and there code, this should be balanced with their other abilities....people should be HAPPY to have paladins in their groups even with the restrictions! Currently they are not, at least not in my play tests....they almost hate me for playing one!
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It may be a good idea to raise Divine Grace to level 3 or 4 to discourage level dipping.
I agree.
Before Pathfinder was released, a thread on Paizo's boards got me and my group working on "3.75". In essence, it was an idea to "fix" what we percived as broken or wrong with the 3.5 system. We scrapped most of that project with the release of Pathfinder Alpha (and subsequently, Beta) in order to support Paizo and put aside the heavy thinking.
One thing from our original playtest of that "3.75" system that we changed from 3.5 was making Divine Grace an ability that was progressed toward. We moved it to 5th level. We ran three playtest groups averaging 5 players each with at least two groups having a paladin (one as a substitute for the cleric). No one protested or felt cheated to have it moved so far up the level progression chart.
In short, it made it a reward for playing that class for 5 levels.
Paladin's bring such a hindrance to groups they are with because of their alignment and there code, this should be balanced with their other abilities....people should be HAPPY to have paladins in their groups even with the restrictions!They're willing to for RP purposes, but aye. Paladins often "color" a scene. Their code of conduct is a Big Thing. But, no one's going to really ask you along for your ability to tackle a demon. :(
Paladins can get cut out of scenes, too--party members working "around" them when it comes to handling a bad guy. This isn't frequent, in the games I play, but it /does/ happen.
Still, there's very little that you do add in the end, that the fighter or barbarian cannot do better.
And isnt that terrible? When the group is going to fight a demon, shouldnt a paladin be the first class they think of and wish they had with them? That is my whole point here. Paladins do not do what they were meant to do as good as other classes can do it!
These changes would fix that.
It may be a good idea to raise Divine Grace to level 3 or 4 to discourage level dipping.I agree.
Before Pathfinder was released, a thread on Paizo's boards got me and my group working on "3.75". In essence, it was an idea to "fix" what we percived as broken or wrong with the 3.5 system. We scrapped most of that project with the release of Pathfinder Alpha (and subsequently, Beta) in order to support Paizo and put aside the heavy thinking.
One thing from our original playtest of that "3.75" system that we changed from 3.5 was making Divine Grace an ability that was progressed toward. We moved it to 5th level. We ran three playtest groups averaging 5 players each with at least two groups having a paladin (one as a substitute for the cleric). No one protested or felt cheated to have it moved so far up the level progression chart.
In short, it made it a reward for playing that class for 5 levels.
I completely agree with you. It is a great ability but so many people have said that they see level dipping there is no reason to move it up a little. like I already said, I hope people realize that if they "dip" even one level into paladin they also gain his code and alignment restrictions.
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It strikes me as a little odd that they don't get any real martial training type benefits beyond the proficiencies and good BAB, Fighters get their training abilities and a stack load of feats, Rangers have the style thing, Barbarians don't but they have that whole instinctual fighter thing going.
Just add something that suggests that Paladins actually have a decent amount of martial training please.
It strikes me as a little odd that they don't get any real martial training type benefits beyond the proficiencies and good BAB, Fighters get their training abilities and a stack load of feats, Rangers have the style thing, Barbarians don't but they have that whole instinctual fighter thing going.
Just add something that suggests that Paladins actually have a decent amount of martial training please.
Would lightbringer or Divine might be what you are looking for here? It still does not bring the paladin up to the damage of any of these classes, but lets them keep pace when fighting evil only.
Leave Detect Evil as it is. It already acts as a crutch for many players who think they can freely attack and kill anything that shows up on their radar, which couldn't be further from the truth:
First of all, paladins can defend against, attack, and even kill non-evil creatures if the situations are right, which is mainly in the case of something or someone rampaging, threatening the life of others. Of course, once we have sentient, intelligent creatures, it gets more complicated, and the paladin shouldn't go for the kill from the get go, but still you can beat that guy senseless.
And of the other side, "being evil" is not a crime in most countries, and killing them isn't necessarily an act of Good. That ruthless merchant who maximises his profit with unethical, immoral, but perfectly legal acts (firing sick employees, raising prices when there's a shortage) is definetly evil, but as long as he commits no crime, the paladin can't just attack him.
All in all, alignment isn't the sole criterion paladins should base their actions on, so there's no real need to speed up detect evil.
I also disagree with argument that paladins should be best at fighting evil, for two reasons:
First, paladins aren't just fighters. They do more than fight. If they were nothing but fighters, they'd be, well, fighters. Rather than pure fighting prowess, they boast many abilities that protect and heal.
And, more importantly, a great many enemies are evil. I'd go as far as saying that in general, more than 75% of all enemies your average D&D party faces are evil. Making paladins super-capable of fighting evil would mean they'd dominate 75% of all fights (in addition to their abilities that aren't solely tied to combat). It would basically mean that fighters would need special encounters (against non-evil characters) to get their moment, to be able to shine for a change. And that's the opposite of what should be: the fighter, with his role focused solely on fighting being the best fighter, while the paladin, being a "specialist", shining in special situations.
That having been said, I wouldn't mind a paladin getting something along the lines of "Holy Strike (Su): Every weapon a paladin wields will gain the holy ability" or maybe Aura of Faith will be changed so that a paladin's own weapon is treated as holy in addition to the normal effect of that ability.
I will just basically agree to disagree on your opinion of detect evil. I think it should matter more but that is not my focus.
As for paladins being better than fighters because 75% of encounters are vs. evil. From what I (and Robert Brambley) have posted the fighter would STILL be = to or better than the paladin at the martial part of the combat. Our biggest problem is that right now with the way things are the paladin is not even part of the fight, rather they just sit back, throw some very weak heals and some very weak attacks (except for their FEW smites a day) which ends up making them more of (as I have said before) a cheerleader than an actual combatant.
I think people are to quick to say, "you guys just want paladins to be the best of the best and no one else should even get to do anything when the paladin is around". That is not the case at all. The paladin should NOT be a better damage dealer than the barbarian or fighter or even the ranger (in some cases). But when fighting EVIL he should shine, he should be the one that the other classes rally behind. Currently this is not true. Currently ALL these other classes our damage, out last and outshine the paladin.
Most of the time groups would rather just not have a paladin at all because the limitations they bring to the "role"playing is not balanced by the bonus they bring to the "roll"playing. *sigh*
Again the more I look at it the more I think that Paladins should be able to access the Glory domain (at least at CL 12 and lower) it's just a really good fit.
I will have to read more into that...but I highly doubt that they will allow paladins any access to domains. I still have my fingers crossed and my hopes up for some form of always on (lightbringer or divine might).
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Again the more I look at it the more I think that Paladins should be able to access the Glory domain (at least at CL 12 and lower) it's just a really good fit.
I have long house-ruled giving Paladins access to one domain of their chosen god as a means of emphasizing that they are warrior-priests more than chivalric knights with a few spells. It has worked out wonderfully to keep paladins in the game and to make them behave more in line with the tenets of their faith.
I recognize, however, that this draws the class away from the 'Knight of the Round Table/Charlemagne's Paladins' model and towards the 'Knight Templar/Knight Hospitaler' model.
To bring a paladin more towards the Round Table, I concur in making the 'Holy Strike' (weapons held by paladin gain Holy property) a class ability at say, level 9.
Lightbringer has proven too powerful at the playtest I am running (levels 1 onward, currently at level 11), we used it from levels 9-11 before pulling it.
Perhaps a 'Righteous Strike' ability where the paladin can apply his cha mod to hit after he has determined the foe is evil would be an appropriate smite-lite ability to throw out. This would be a continuous ability that requires the paladin to pause before striking but emphasizes his ability to strike down evil.
Again the more I look at it the more I think that Paladins should be able to access the Glory domain (at least at CL 12 and lower) it's just a really good fit.I have long house-ruled giving Paladins access to one domain of their chosen god as a means of emphasizing that they are warrior-priests more than chivalric knights with a few spells. It has worked out wonderfully to keep paladins in the game and to make them behave more in line with the tenets of their faith.
I recognize, however, that this draws the class away from the 'Knight of the Round Table/Charlemagne's Paladins' model and towards the 'Knight Templar/Knight Hospitaler' model.
To bring a paladin more towards the Round Table, I concur in making the 'Holy Strike' (weapons held by paladin gain Holy property) a class ability at say, level 9.
Lightbringer has proven too powerful at the playtest I am running (levels 1 onward, currently at level 11), we used it from levels 9-11 before pulling it.
Perhaps a 'Righteous Strike' ability where the paladin can apply his cha mod to hit after he has determined the foe is evil would be an appropriate smite-lite ability to throw out. This would be a continuous ability that requires the paladin to pause before striking but emphasizes his ability to strike down evil.
Awesome that you used lightbringer in a play test. Though I am very curious as to HOW was it over powered. The numbers are still less than a fighter or barbarian get...and it also has the limitation of evil only.
I am currently doing some play testing with a friend and we are coming up with exactly that. The fighter, barbarian, ranger, even monk and rogue are staying on very close to equal ground with the paladin against evil (the paladin passes them if he uses ALL of his smites on top of lightbringer). And against anything that is not evil the paladin is left as the role of meatshield and stabilization healer.
From all the numbers I have ran and play tests I have done the only thing this ability does is all the paladin to stay in the fight and actually contribute something when fighting evil. Without it he steps in to smite a couple times and then stands around trying not to get in the way.
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I have long house-ruled giving Paladins access to one domain of their chosen god as a means of emphasizing that they are warrior-priests more than chivalric knights with a few spells. It has worked out wonderfully to keep paladins in the game and to make them behave more in line with the tenets of their faith.
I recognize, however, that this draws the class away from the 'Knight of the Round Table/Charlemagne's Paladins' model and towards the 'Knight Templar/Knight Hospitaler' model.
what would you do with my character who doesn't worship a god?
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Meh I don't think I like the idea of giving my weapons a single property as a class feature. I'd personally rather fix smite.
In my opinion this is what smite should be.
Smite Evil: A Paladin has 1+cha mod smites per day. During a round a paladin may smite gaining his Cha mod as a boost to attack and twice his level as a boost to damage. This bonus applies to every attack made within the round (including attacks of opportunity) and lasts until the start of your next turn. If the paladin attempts to smite a non-evil character the smite immeadiately ends and he looses all uses for the day.
Most of the time groups would rather just not have a paladin at all because the limitations they bring to the "role"playing is not balanced by the bonus they bring to the "roll"playing. *sigh*
Actually, the limitations aren't as severe as people want to play them. The fact that too many people use the codex as an excuse to annoy people doesn't mean that they have to screw with the party.
Again the more I look at it the more I think that Paladins should be able to access the Glory domain (at least at CL 12 and lower) it's just a really good fit.
That's a really interesting idea, I like it. It makes the paladin a bit more castery. Maybe it should be a feat? Spend a feat, get access to a single appropriate domain. Is that too powerful? Would you need to give something up, like smites?
Meh I don't think I like the idea of giving my weapons a single property as a class feature. I'd personally rather fix smite.
In my opinion this is what smite should be.
Smite Evil: A Paladin has 1+cha mod smites per day. During a round a paladin may smite gaining his Cha mod as a boost to attack and twice his level as a boost to damage. This bonus applies to every attack made within the round (including attacks of opportunity) and lasts until the start of your next turn. If the paladin attempts to smite a non-evil character the smite immeadiately ends and he looses all uses for the day.
I like it, and I think we have come up with some GREAT solutions for Smite. But I still feel that the always on mechanic needs a fair look. Even with your proposed changes you are not going to be doing much good for a GOOD portion of the day.
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Again the more I look at it the more I think that Paladins should be able to access the Glory domain (at least at CL 12 and lower) it's just a really good fit.That's a really interesting idea, I like it. It makes the paladin a bit more castery. Maybe it should be a feat? Spend a feat, get access to a single appropriate domain. Is that too powerful? Would you need to give something up, like smites?
The problem is that a lot of people, myself included don't think the paladin should be more castery, just that the castery he gets be adequate with the other castery. For example my character doesn't think of himself as a paladin, he's a knight raised from birth to reclaim his families place of honor within the knighthood. the fact that he has paladin levels and will develop some spellcasting powers is merely his virtue shinning through, to make him more castery isn't a solution I'm fond of. I'd rather fix his current suite of abilities then add a bunch.
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I like it, and I think we have come up with some GREAT solutions for Smite. But I still feel that the always on mechanic needs a fair look. Even with your proposed changes you are not going to be doing much good for a GOOD portion of the day.Meh I don't think I like the idea of giving my weapons a single property as a class feature. I'd personally rather fix smite.
In my opinion this is what smite should be.
Smite Evil: A Paladin has 1+cha mod smites per day. During a round a paladin may smite gaining his Cha mod as a boost to attack and twice his level as a boost to damage. This bonus applies to every attack made within the round (including attacks of opportunity) and lasts until the start of your next turn. If the paladin attempts to smite a non-evil character the smite immeadiately ends and he looses all uses for the day.
Thanxs, my design goal is to make changes as minimal as possible while keeping an eye on balance and backwards comp. I feel that this retains the feel of smite and the extra power is balanced with a greater penalty for stiking willy nilly. Glad you like it, what do the rest of you think?