The only characters I see being played more often than clerics in the groups I've seen are rogues and wizards. That's just because everybody wants to be the cool kid. :P
I always see a lot of rangers, rogues, and sometimes rogue/rangers; a lot of people just lo-o-o-o-ve skill points!
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But I've never played in a game where the divine casters were expected to continuously attempt to convert everyone around them or risk losing their powers. If the goal is worthy, your god should cut you some slack on who your associates are.
True.
"Oh, Lord, grant me the patience to put up with these idiots for the Greater Good."
Of course, that does assume that the PCs are actually on a mission for a worthy cause. There's plenty of games where they wander round the countryside, waiting for wandering monsters to jump out at them for 'lewt and expees'. In which case, a tap on their shoulder from their guardian angel, and a query of "What the hell do you think you're playing at?" may be in order.
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Seriously though, I think that the idea that divine casters could lose their powers over associates and lack of coversion is a bad precedent. It implies way too much direct observation and involvement from the cleric's god. It could be a real can of worms if you're not careful.
It's like 'The Elminster Problem', but on an even greater scale.
"Tell us again, why do we have to deal with this?"
"If your god is watching us all the time, then maybe he'd like to get up off his butt, and give us a hand?"
See also:
"The Avengers Hotline is Engaged, Please Try Later"
"We've Bought the Wrong Bulbs for the Bat-Signal"
"The Federation Fleet is Cut Off By A Warp-Storm"
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Yes yes, barbarian McMunchkin, you leap attack-power attacked with your scythe and got a crit. The enemy is a messy pair of stains on opposite sides of the room. But who cast the bless weapon that made it auto-confirm against that evil foe? And who gave the bardic music that allowed you to power attack for so much yet still have a good chance of hitting? And who gave you the freedom of movement that prevented the evil beasts reaching tentacles from grappling you out of the charge before you even swung?
When credit is given where credit is due, all classes are more fun. The game is more fun. Its a social game. Which means it takes social skills to fully enjoy it and experience it. That might be my own solitarity opinion, and you can disagree from your own experiences, but thats just how I see it.
Actually what you say is not only true, but interesting
certianly i have seen in games the poor cleric ordered to do this or do that... depending the group they either thank him/her or notsome people take this with phillosophy copntent to just do their job... others grow bored with the character for being pushed...
one of my players complained he never got able to use his spells for anything different than heal and counter (the bastard knew me too well so he always carried the counter for some of my favorite spells... like darkness and hold... not even being a master i am allowed to use this last one... they don't keep still!!!) sowhen another cleric arrived he was happy he could use some of them to really affect a combat (either buffing, debuffing or actually making harm).
one thing.. the female cleric of the age of worms, sounds incredible :D
But I've never played in a game where the divine casters were expected to continuously attempt to convert everyone around them or risk losing their powers. If the goal is worthy, your god should cut you some slack on who your associates are.True.
"Oh, Lord, grant me the patience to put up with these idiots for the Greater Good.
yesterday my cleric felt like this...
she was discusing abut the planes... negative and positive... her companion and best friend is a neutral necromancer whowants to explain ehr while using non-sentient undeads is not evil.. he is beginnig slowly, and he might succeed...
but this time there were others inmersed in the discussion (she prefers to talk privately to him of this) i don't remember how the discussion went to "i don't think there are any innocents at all" said by the paladin... (which surprised my LG Cleric of Justice, theya re fromthe same goddess), and the Bard agreed (who was being to close to the necromancer in those moments) and the necromancer agreed too...
so after, quite in a bad mood explainied them what she found as innocency and why she believed in its existence, she went to walk by herself (in a town where they are heroes... but there are a few people who would want them dead) using normal clothes and brining only her sword (cleric of Iomedae, you will need to pry it from her cold dead hands if you want it)
she was attacked inthe street by a drunk who wanted to have some fun with her and she gave him fair warning before using her sun domaiin on his face (produce flame) the orc went to the gound sleeping in his drunkness... she was tempeted in kicking him, but just went away to think about her problems elsewhere... yes.. she was asking for lots of patience that night
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Has anyone used the rework of the cleric from Lion's Den Press ?
It looks like it was modeled after the old 2e Cleric (which I liked)...
In 2e, you potentially had clerics that could not cast healing spells simply because their deity did not grant access to the "Healing Sphere" (such as with a god of war)...
I have not read the PDF myself, I was just wondering if anybody else had, and what their thoughts on ot might be (might also solve the whole "Band-Aid Box" thing, who knows)...
That One Digitalelf Fellow-
I would have thought the reason why many people are reluctant is relatively obvious.
They don't like being told what to do.
They dislike being "boxed in" by a god and religious restrictions.
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I would have thought the reason why many people are reluctant is relatively obvious.
They don't like being told what to do.
They dislike being "boxed in" by a god and religious restrictions.
I would agree, except...
I see a lot more Paladins than I do Clerics, and Paladins carry a whole lot more baggage than Clerics do within the realm of religion and deity (and being told what they can and cannot do)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
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I would have thought the reason why many people are reluctant is relatively obvious.
They don't like being told what to do.
They dislike being "boxed in" by a god and religious restrictions.
I would agree, except...
I see a lot more Paladins than I do Clerics, and Paladins carry a whole lot more baggage than Clerics do within the realm of religion and deity (and being told what they can and cannot do)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
Yeah, if anything it's less often the god telling them what to do and more the party.
I would have thought the reason why many people are reluctant is relatively obvious.
They don't like being told what to do.
They dislike being "boxed in" by a god and religious restrictions.
That said, considering the large amounts of gods in typical game worlds and rather loose way they are described, if I put my mind to it I can pretty much figure out any philosophical concept I want and fit it into existing religions networks. At least if the DM is not having moments of tunnel vision.
I skipped over the second page of this thread for time reasons, but it is a very interesting read. My thoughts, in no particular order:
1: I'm normally very opposed to giving wizards and sorcerers any kind of healing ability, but for some reason, the notion of the "white wizard" makes it more palatable. I know Pathfinder has changed school specialization (though I disagree with many of the modifications as of the Alpha release [I apologize for not having had the time to look over Beta yet]), but if one were looking for other abilities to make the various types of specialists unique, perhaps giving Conjurers access to cure spells would be the right step. It would certainly be interesting, and keep the healing options to wizards limited enough to preserve other classes' "identity" as healers.
2: I think that increasing the utility of the Heal skill is an excellent idea. Currently, it can basically be used to stabilize a dying ally, and... well, that's about it. The DC is relatively low, so once you can hit it reliably, there's no reason to keep investing in the skill. Further, any magical healing completely negates the skill's signature ability. After that, the skill can see slight use as an effective Knowledge (medical), but it's still wildly underpowered.
I concur with the notion that the Heal skill should be able to perform actual healing, but far less easily and efficiently than cure spells (at least in combat). Here's my suggestion for a new use of the Heal skill:
Treat wound: You may use the Heal skill to cure a creature of a certain amount of damage. You may attempt to restore a number of hit points up to your rank in the skill. With 10 minutes of work, you may make a Heal check with a DC equal to 20 + the number of hit points you are trying to restore. If the check succeeds, the patient recovers by that amount. If the check fails by 5 or more, the target takes 1 point of damage instead.
This way, the Heal skill can be used to patch people up between battles instead of expending magical supplies. Further, you have a reason to continue investing in the skill. The higher your modifier, the more consistently you can heal your friends by larger and larger amounts. Plus, you can choose to take the safe bet and administer multiple smaller "fixes" and take more time, or if you're in a pinch for time, a riskier gamble of more advanced treatment. However, it takes much longer than magic would, and isn't as sure-fired. Thus, the role and supremacy of spells is preserved while letting the casters of cure spells conserve their magic (and obviating the need of clerics to convert their other spells into healing), and all while simultaneously opening up viable healing options for classes other than the cleric. Hell, with this rule, I could even see fighters having the Heal skill on their class list!
3: Aside from rule modifications, I think that communication between players (and DMs) is paramount for playing clerics the way one wants to and avoiding being pidgeon-holed as a healbot. Many of you have voiced similar opinions, but it seems to mostly take place once the game has begun and even after battle is joined, only addressing the issue when someone starts calling for a cure spell. I think that it is imperative to discuss the role of any cleric during character creation itself, or otherwise at some time before the actual beginning of the campaign. One should let one's fellow players know before hand that spending the game as a healbot isn't one's intent, and that this cleric plans on doing almost all the healing between battles, not during, because this cleric has other things to do. That being said, if one of the other PCs is in need of healing, the cleric will hopefully choose to come to his aid. So long as the cleric is making that choice himself from a range of equally viable options, rather than feeling as if he's been forced into it. If one is playing with intelligent and tolerant people, I think they would be inclined to acquiesce. It's all about communication.
I don't have to much of a problem playing clerics, but I prefer other classes. It's just not my thing. I do have a couple players that regularily play clerics though. I do have a cleric that I enjoy playing, however. Ever thought of how fun it would be to deck someone when casting those nifty spells that require you to touch the target? Cleric/monk is an awesome combination.
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Me and my wife dont mind playing clerics, or playing the band-aid box. But that is assuming there is a line where one stops and the other begins.
Example: Genon, 12th level Healer
*salutes* Funny how we came up with the exact same idea for the same campaign. Sierra, my Healer/Mystic Wanderer was often the deciding factor in avoiding TPKs. I worried she was making things too easy on the party, but the few times they forgot to ask her along and ened up mostly dead proved me wrong.
I also love your Entropomancer description. The party cleric towards the end of the campaign came into his own and was able to lay down Cuthbert's wrath like nobody's business.
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Has anyone used the rework of the cleric from Lion's Den Press ?
It looks like it was modeled after the old 2e Cleric (which I liked)...
In 2e, you potentially had clerics that could not cast healing spells simply because their deity did not grant access to the "Healing Sphere" (such as with a god of war)...
I have not read the PDF myself, I was just wondering if anybody else had, and what their thoughts on ot might be (might also solve the whole "Band-Aid Box" thing, who knows)...
That One Digitalelf Fellow-
I went ahead and bought this...
It is indeed modeled after the 2e Priest, and if his/her deity does not grant access to the Sphere of Healing, the priest simply cannot cast healing spells...
Spontaneous casting has been turned into a feat that allows you to choose a sphere to spontaneously cast from (as long as you have access to that sphere from your deity)...
I rather like it myself. Gives Clerics more of a singular focus upon their chosen deity...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
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Has anyone used the rework of the cleric from Lion's Den Press ?
It looks like it was modeled after the old 2e Cleric (which I liked)...
In 2e, you potentially had clerics that could not cast healing spells simply because their deity did not grant access to the "Healing Sphere" (such as with a god of war)...
I have not read the PDF myself, I was just wondering if anybody else had, and what their thoughts on ot might be (might also solve the whole "Band-Aid Box" thing, who knows)...
That One Digitalelf Fellow-
I went ahead and bought this...
It is indeed modeled after the 2e Priest, and if his/her deity does not grant access to the Sphere of Healing, the priest simply cannot cast healing spells...
Spontaneous casting has been turned into a feat that allows you to choose a sphere to spontaneously cast from (as long as you have access to that sphere from your deity)...
I rather like it myself. Gives Clerics more of a singular focus upon their chosen deity...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
I picked it up as well. It certainly adds something for DMs from a customization standpoint. In addition, it does limit a cleric to 7th level spells unless their major spheres grant higher levels, which is cool. I like the combination of domain powers and turn undead into a "blessings" pool.
It has nothing to do with game mechanics for me. I find the idea of roleplaying a cleric distasteful. Real world zealots are bad enough; the fictional ones who have actual proof that their god exists seem like they'd be no end of irritation.
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It has nothing to do with game mechanics for me. I find the idea of roleplaying a cleric distasteful. Real world zealots are bad enough; the fictional ones who have actual proof that their god exists seem like they'd be no end of irritation.
You don't like playing fictional Clerics simply because real world bible-thumpers annoy you?
Please, don't take that as snark (as that is not my intent), but you don't have to play your cleric as the person that is up in everybody’s face telling them to convert or die (or what ever happens to the non-faithful in your campaign)...
I'm a Christian, and I can tell you, there are real life "zealots" out there that annoy me to no end as well...
But that has little to no effect on my game...
Anyway...
Whatever makes your cookie crumble... :-D
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
Has anyone used the rework of the cleric from Lion's Den Press ?
It looks like it was modeled after the old 2e Cleric (which I liked)...
In 2e, you potentially had clerics that could not cast healing spells simply because their deity did not grant access to the "Healing Sphere" (such as with a god of war)...
I have not read the PDF myself, I was just wondering if anybody else had, and what their thoughts on ot might be (might also solve the whole "Band-Aid Box" thing, who knows)...
That One Digitalelf Fellow-
I went ahead and bought this...
It is indeed modeled after the 2e Priest, and if his/her deity does not grant access to the Sphere of Healing, the priest simply cannot cast healing spells...
Spontaneous casting has been turned into a feat that allows you to choose a sphere to spontaneously cast from (as long as you have access to that sphere from your deity)...
I rather like it myself. Gives Clerics more of a singular focus upon their chosen deity...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
Hmm, sounds good, as I said I liked 2e priests with more limited/focused spell selection.
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I would have thought the reason why many people are reluctant is relatively obvious.
They don't like being told what to do.
They dislike being "boxed in" by a god and religious restrictions.
nah the god and religion is not the problem
its the other players forcing them to act or play in a certain why by ordering them around :P
except my cleric is the one that gives the orders :P
would have tocheck such wizard cleric
one thing for those who like the idea of white wizard, (if either you brought it from Tolkien, which he didn't healed people) or from Final Fantasy, at least in the alst part i should remember White Wizard = White Mage = Cleric
the powers areidentical, thye just call the cleric white mage :P
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Oh my violently angry god! Another post eaten! Argh!
But that's neither here nor there, how about allowing the Heal skill to boost curative magic? Something like.
Enhance Magical Healing: Increases the amount of damage a Cure Wounds spell heals by +1 hit points per dice. Requires a (DC 10 + 5 per dice of healing?) Heal check.
Random thoughts on this idea, which I like;
Enhance Magical Healing: By taking a full-round action to cast any Cure spell that cures hit point damage and normally takes a standard action to cast, you can make a Heal check (DC 15) to add +1 hit point of healing to the spell's effect. For every five points by which you make this check, you can add another hit point of curing, up to a maximum of +1 hit point per die of healing that the spell would normally provide (minimum +1).
Example: Eric the Cleric takes a full-round action to cast Cure Minor Wounds on an ally and makes his Heal check by 10 (getting a 25). He only cures one extra hit point of damage with this orison, although he could have gotten three extra hit points with this roll, had he cast a Cure Critical Wounds.
Special: This skill use is only usable with Cure spells that cure hit point damage, not other spells that cure hit point damage (such as Heal or Close Wounds), nor spells that grant temporary hit points (such as Aid or False Life).
My player group regularly buys a wand of cure light wounds, so the cleric need not only heal and can use other spells as well.