So, the fighter's shtick is that he can be pretty much any type of combat character, right? And fixing him through new class features is difficult because every fighter prestige class assumes he just has a bunch of feats, right? So, why not fix the fighter by rigging the feats so that there are a bunch of really cool, really nasty feats which require fighter level 5+ or 7+? It's generally been my complaint for fighters that you run out of all the feats you at all actually want around 12th level, if not before, and then have to start picking up stuff like Improved Disarm, which you probably won't ever use since your character doesn't really roll like that. Wouldn't it be cool if a 15th level fighter could pick up a save-or-die feat of some sort? Or maybe high-level fighters can can automatically block attacks sometimes? I dunno, but frankly, I'd be ok with letting fighters stumble upon some borderline-overpowered feats once they get out of dip territory, and perhaps some even better ones once they hit PrC range.
I've said this a few places, but when Jason alluded to cherry picking a few ideas from the Book of Experimental Might, I was really, really hoping this would mean the "fighters get better benefits from fighter feats" idea.
In the BOXM II, fighters, if they use their fighter bonus feats only, get a special benefit from several feats. For example, a fighter with Improved Initiative as a fighter bonus feat under these rules gets a +6 to initiative instead of +4.
I'd love to see this in Pathfinder. The only thing that is unappealing about it is the number of 3rd party feats that qualify as fighter feats that would either not get this benefit or the GM would have to modify on the fly.
Personally, for simplicity, I think I'd just rule that they don't have an extra benefit like the feats in the core rules, which are likely to be the best "lets bump this up for a fighter" feats anyway.
|
I like this idea a good deal, this would not only be a legitimate fix for a good number of the fighter problems but it would not break backwards compatibility either.
I've been thinking on doing something like this in my games for a good while now and have been slowly developing some higher end fighter feats that I feel are decently worth taking. Anyways, here are a few of 'em (all of which can be taken as fighter bonus feats):
Alacrity (Fighter)
Your fighting speed is known far and wide. You are capable of attacking and killing most men before they even draw their weapons.
Benefit: 1/day as an immediate action you may make a single attack at your highest base attack bonus with whatever weapon you have equipped. Foes attacked in this way are treated as flat-footed unless they succeed on a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 fighter level + DEX modifier).
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each additional time you take this feat allows you to use it once more per day.
Deathless Warrior (Fighter)
You simply don't die. At least not when a lesser man would.
Benefit: You may act normally when in negative hit-points (every action you take deals 1 point of damage to you). In addition, you do not die until your negative hit-points equal one-quarter of your total hit-points.
Decapitator (Fighter)
Your skill with your weapons is legend, you are capable of beheading your foes.
Benefit: 1/day when you threaten a critical hit with a melee slashing weapon that you have Greater Weapon Specialization with you may choose to make that critical threat a decapitation (you must state this before rolling the confirmation - a failed confirmation uses this feat for the day). If the attack successfully confirms your opponent must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 fighter levels + STR modifier) or be killed instantly. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this ability. If you are wielding a vorpal weapon increase the save DC of this ability by 4.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each additional time this feat is taken you may choose another weapon that you have Greater Weapon Specialization with, you may make decapitation attempts with that weapon as well. In addition you gain one additional use of this ability per day. You may take this feat multiple times and elect not to choose another weapon that you have Greater Weapon Specialization with, if you do so you only gain the ability to use this feat once more per day.
Terrifying Critical (Fighter)
You have devised ways to brutally kill your foes in battle, demoralizing all who witness the carnage that you reap.
Benefit: When you successfully confirm a critical hit with a weapon that you posses Improved Critical with all foes that can see you must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 fighter level + CHA modifier) or be frightened for a number of rounds equal to 1/4 your number of fighter levels.
Ok...
But no "per day" abilities. There's no reason why a fighter would only be able to execute a really quick attack x times per day. It's kinda ok for spells and supernatural abilities to work that way, but it almost never makes sense for extraordinary ones.
|
|
Well, what about instead of per day a per encounter system is used?
The only one of those four that I feel needs a real limit is the decapitator feat, a fighter toting a keen kukri would be threatening criticals on a 15-20 range and if he used this every time it almost makes vorpal weapons obsolete not to mention that he could potentially be forcing an opponent to roll versus a save or die four times a round (assuming he rolls very lucky) which seems somewhat unfair.
Alacrity could be fine if you allowed it as a swift action with no limit per day. Fighters need something worthwhile to do with their swift actions as it is; I don't think I've ever seen a fighter in one of my games use one. Possibly throw in a clause that states if an opponent makes the reflex save he cannot be targeted again by alacrity for the rest of the encounter; I don't think it needs it, but ya never know.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
Well, what about instead of per day a per encounter system is used?
Per encounter makes more sense than per day and only if it is a trick that an opponent of some intelligence could avoid the second time around. It has been explained (I think on the WotC podcast) that per encounter powers are supposed to represent the difficulty of setting up these maneuvers but that piece of fluff barely covers this mechanic.
So, 'per day' only if it is so exhausting it requires an 8 hour rest after. 'Per encounter' if it is a bluff or a trick (Can be used more than once against unintelligent foes?). All other powers should be 'at will'.
|
|
I like the general drift of this idea. I think Jason isn't keen to debate feats yet, but my take is that they should be getting stuff like this.
On the "per day" or "per encounter" (gah! 4e alert!) I would not be very in favour of mechnics like that. Instead, maybe for something like a "vorpal" attack perhaps a Fort saving throw, with the DC based on 10 + 1/2 fighter level + STR (or whatever seems the most appropriate stat for the feat).
|
I like the general drift of this idea. I think Jason isn't keen to debate feats yet, but my take is that they should be getting stuff like this.
On the "per day" or "per encounter" (gah! 4e alert!) I would not be very in favour of mechnics like that. Instead, maybe for something like a "vorpal" attack perhaps a Fort saving throw, with the DC based on 10 + 1/2 fighter level + STR (or whatever seems the most appropriate stat for the feat).
It's kind of that gray area - if the fighter gets an extra benefit from bonus feats, is that a fighter class feature or a feat discussion.
I think a fighter class feature that gives an extra pop to bonus feats would be a nice way to make someone stick with the class.
I'm throwing this out there: what about a mechanic based on how many bonus feats the fighter has? Perhaps tied to AC or saving throws.
Director of Games
|
Hey there all,
I am considering a number of additional fighter feats, when we get to the feats chapter. In addition, I think some of the feats (re: combat feats) will be better for a fighter than they will be for other classes.
That said, we are not discussing feats for a little while yet. Hang in there.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That said, we are not discussing feats for a little while yet. Hang in there.
Oh, I know. But we are discussing the Fighter, and the Fighter is his feats, so you can't discuss how to fix the fighter without at least touching on the feats. My point is that rather than answer the cries to radically alter the fighter's class features (some alteration is probably still necessarily, just not a total about-face), we should wait until the feats forum opens for the fighter.
Regarding "per encounter" fighter powers, I'm still violently opposed to them. The fighter is a totally normal, natural fighter. He swings his sword well and hard, period. The knowledge of how to swing it properly doesn't fade after use, and it's totally artificial to pretend that it does. Remember, we're trying to build something that will facilitate roleplaying in addition to gaming, not a Magic: the Gathering deck where it doesn't matter in the slightest if things make sense. If you want a fighter with per-encounter abilities, go check out the Warblade from the Tome of Battle, who has his own flavor consistent with per-encounter mechanics. If you want to limit how often a fighter makes a particular attack, you need to find other ways to do it. Maybe he has to set up for the attack and it requires him to perform very specific actions for a round or two before he makes it. Maybe it's a really hard maneuver to pull off and he's fatigued for a few rounds afterwards. Maybe it's dangerous and he takes penalties to AC and Reflex saves. There are all sorts of disincentives you can give fighter abilities so as to balance especially flashy effects, and we don't need to resort to flavorless, uninteresting penalties that don't make sense.
