In my rather extensive experience with 3.5E and by now relatively decent experience playtesting the Pathfinder RPG; Fighters and Barbarians (and to a much lesser extent even Rangers and Paladins and at higher levels perhaps even Monks and Rogues), but that is not the topic of this forum) can hold their own in combat, yet players have a tendency to multiclass out of these classes after a while for a different reason. After some time, they simply find these classes boring. Truth be told, this applies especially to Fighters, and to a lesser extent to Barbarians and thus far it has been equally true both in 3.5E and in the Pathfinder RPG (though I should state a caveat that I have only very limited experienced to DMing for Barbarians in the Pathfinder RPG).
Combat is not the issue here. The classes generally seem to hold their own in this regard reasonably well. It is the out of combat play that poses problems. Out of combat play, of course, accounts for a different amount of time of gameplay in every game, but I would peg it at a minimum of 50% in most cases, so it is vitally important.
Out of combat play consists of several sub-categories. Of the top of my head I can identify:
Social PC/NPC Interaction (this is often the crux of the proverbial roleplaying)
Movement and Surmounting Obstacles to Movement
Recovery and Preparation for Other Activities [Especially for Combat] (Planning/Information Gathering, Crafting/Buying, Buffing and Healing/Recovering)
Of course, any character participate in any of those activities, so it is not as if Fighters and Barbarians are entirely excluded here. The problem lies in the fact that they don't have any special abilities to contribute to those areas of gameplay (access to the Intimidate skill just does not cut it). This contrasts with other classes who clearly have both combat abilities and special abilities for dealing with non-combat situations. Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids and Bards have spells for almost all situations. Rogues, thanks to their profligate skill points and a good skill selection, can also contribute well, while Monks have a combination of skills and special abilities enabling them to engage in out of combat gameplay too.
Actually, Rangers and Paladins are not too bad in this regard either thanks to their skills, abilities and spells. It is the Fighters who suffer the most with Barbarians coming close second.
Simply giving more skill points and changing/improving the skill selection would make these classes step on the toes of Rogues and that would not be such a good thing. A different solution is, therefore, desirable.
The solution for Barbarians, I believe, would be to create new Rage powers with good out of combat uses.
The solution for Fighters is more elusive. Out of combat fighter feats just does not seem like a very attractive solution, though it would be better than nothing.
Any thoughts on how to help Barbarians and especially Fighters help contribute to non-combat situations in terms of mechanics?
Give them the appropriate class skills and 4 skill points per level.
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I tend to favor the fighter as one of the classes I prefer to play. I generally play them as planners and such. Yes you may have to spend points cross-class for them, but that is fine to me. I have a fighter who does have a high intelligence so gets a nice amount skill points (6 usually.
With those points I buy a couple of knowledge skill if I have enough I buy more. I buy diplomacy and spend the rest on other stuff I can use in and out of combat. Feats can help boost some of my skills even further. Especially as I get a feat for combat every other level.
FOr the first you list they can interact. They may interact in ways that can cause some fun at the table and since the interaction is role-play and not roll-play there is nothing to stop them.
The second well they may be able to help remove an obstacle by force, thinking, or finding a way around it.
The third. The fighter should be helping plan for the next portion of the game especially if fighting is involved. After all they are going to be right up there probably taking the most blows in the battle and they are supposed to be knowledgeable when it comes to battle.
As you can tell I get creative with my fighters and I refuse to let them get held back because they lack a lot of skills. There are ways around it and I have helped players out with this problem when they play a fighter and are new to playing one.
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My 10th level Beta fighter had a 17 Use Magic Device skill (10 ranks, Skill Focus [which is +6 instead of +3 when you have 10 ranks], +1 Int modifier). I still had a reasonable amount of skill points to place elsewhere and, of course, plenty of feats. Seems pretty flexible to me.
Outside the playtest, a fighter can select hundreds of feats from the various 3.5 sourcebooks out there. Does this mean no one will ever multiclass out of fighter? No. The classes' flexibility and flavour make it ideal for multiclassing. At least now with weapon and armour training, there is a scaling benefit for staying with the class.
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Down with "Patch Classes". A class should reward those who stay true too it. I do like multiclassing, Fighter/Clerics, Fighter/Rogues, Fighter/Mages (if you could get that to work) but I would like to see a reason to be 10th level in both by twentieth level (instead of two levels of fighter to obtain a prestige class, one level of Barbarian for the extra move, Rage, skills and hitdie )
Barbarians have a good amount of toys to play with ( and I think they should stay simple to play) Fighters need more "Fun" in how they play and I dont think an extra skill will fix this leaky Dam.
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Social PC/NPC Interaction (this is often the crux of the proverbial roleplaying)
Movement and Surmounting Obstacles to Movement
Recovery and Preparation for Other Activities [Especially for Combat] (Planning/Information Gathering, Crafting/Buying, Buffing and Healing/Recovering)
You mention at higher levels when you think they become boring due to the above mentioned here.
Social as you say is roleplaying
Movement and surmounting Obsticals - things blocking movement is up a Fighters/Barbarians way
Recovery and preperation - yes some other classes are designed for this, but they should have buff potions or items.
All of these are just as capable for a Fighter/Barbarian as any other class, there are areas each class have out of combat expertise, but the Fighter could use a few more Skill points to have access to assist in other areas.
---SagaWeaver
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I can't say I entirely agree with the argument they have nothing to do - they have as much to do as you want them. But I do agree that without specific non-combat abilities, their is no mechanical underpinning to provide the catalyst for involvement.
I personally think this ties back to the seperation from the 2nd Edition mechanics, which specifically granted a Fighter a keep, retinue, and title.
I don't think it would be out of line to provide these to a fighter (although Leadership is easily available at a time a fighter can afford to spend a feat). Maybe just be done with it and give Fighters Leadership as a bonus feat - with the option to renounce any followers or cohorts if you like the solitary type (since this doesn't seem to apply to your complaint anyway).
One way (actually several ways) to make fighters less boring is to focus more on their actual roles in society away from the dungeon or the monster bash.
To a large extent medieval society (and presumably to some degree the pseudo-magical equivalent) is run by fighters. Fighters form the core of noble orders of knighthood, the armies of land (both as mercenaries and fighters under banner), and the guardians of cities, towns, and villages. These facets of fighter existence and societal characteristics are largely ignored in favor of "what can my fighter do against monster X" and "why don't I do as much damage as Wizard Jenkins". I say we ignore the monsters and Wizard Jenkins and look at the larger context of things.
First, there is a society of arms that exists among fighters. No matter what curses or battle cries issue from their mouths they speak the same language. The clash of steel on steel, the groan of torn muscles and pulled ligaments, the pain and sweat of melee: language of armed combat. Based on their wisdom, a fighter should be able to recognize the competency of a foe. Maybe a contest of WIS between a fighter and his opponent should give the winner a +1 bonus to hit or AC for a single round versus that one opponent.
Second, fighters are often professional men-at-arms and know well the business of war. Fighters should be able to use their Profession (Solider) skill to DO various things: provide tactical advantages, evolve strategies, avoid sieges, etc.
Third, fighters are the backbone the martial society. Options should be made available for fighters to take service with a lord, acquire grants of land and noble title, and attract followers (beyond just using the Leadership feat).
If we focus on more than just what a fighter does in melee a whole realm of possibilities opens up.
CJ
(I tried to post this earlier and the server exploded; fortunately I had it on my clipboard, but apologies if I've ended up repeating something since said--I don't think I did, but just in case...)
In my rather extensive experience with 3.5E and by now relatively decent experience playtesting the Pathfinder RPG; Fighters and Barbarians (and to a much lesser extent even Rangers and Paladins and at higher levels perhaps even Monks and Rogues), but that is not the topic of this forum) can hold their own in combat, yet players have a tendency to multiclass out of these classes after a while for a different reason. After some time, they simply find these classes boring. Truth be told, this applies especially to Fighters, and to a lesser extent to Barbarians and thus far it has been equally true both in 3.5E and in the Pathfinder RPG (though I should state a caveat that I have only very limited experienced to DMing for Barbarians in the Pathfinder RPG).
I'm early in playing a Pathfinder fighter, but so far I'm finding it far more fun than playing a standard 3.x Fighter. And the new class abilities every level have me for the first time looking forward to a new level as a Fighter rather than thinking, "What shall I multiclass to?"
Beyond the uncontrollable variables of enjoying playing a gal swinging around a bastard sword and having a decent GM, I attribute this a lot to improved Skill lists, among some other things...
Social PC/NPC Interaction (this is often the crux of the proverbial roleplaying)
The only thing stopping you from interacting with other people is yourself. I've seen people play gregarious Fighters and reticent Rogues--that's a roleplay choice as much as it is anything else.
As for crunch, Fighters have Intimidate as a class skill--I know you say that doesn't cut it, but it is something they should be good at--if it ISN'T their area of expertise, whose should it be?
I don't see Bluff or Diplomacy as appropriate for class skills--but nicely in Pathfinder you can still drop some skill points into those skills. Sure you won't get the +3, but if it bothers you that much, since you get so many bonus feats for combat abilities, you can easily spare a "normal" feat for Skill Focus. Fact, with the way Pathfinder works, I can see it much easier to build a "Charming Swordsman" sort of Fighter than you could in 3.x (especially if you used a Human or Half-Elf as base).
Movement and Surmounting Obstacles to Movement
Let's see, most Fighters either have a high Strength or high Dex (or both), and often good at Con, which would make them very good at these things and for doing them for long periods of time. Plus they have the Climb skill. What are they missing here? Maybe Acrobatics? Would that really make a great difference?
Also, they have Survival and Knowledge: Dungeoneering and Knowledge: Engineering now which would allow them to "surmount" more tricky obstacles like how to ford a river, or what's the best way to circumvent this pit in the floor?
Recovery and Preparation for Other Activities [Especially for Combat] (Planning/Information Gathering, Crafting/Buying, Buffing and Healing/Recovering)
For Crafting/Buying, they have Craft as a class skill. That's got a lot of big potential right there. And should also give them synergies to Appraise. (Are we using synergies in Pathfinder?)
I can see for Planning, again Survival, Knowledge: Dungeoneering and Knowledge: Engineering could come in handy. And general tactics should be a given known to most fighter concepts (that's in part DM fiat, I guess, but it makes sense).
Information Gathering, less-so, but I don't see where that should be the typical fighter's bailiwick. (Although using Intimidate in this fashion could be fun; and again, if you really wanted to build a character with this in mind, it's easier to do with Pathfinder than before.)
Healing/Recovering is where I'd suggest my ONE improvement to the Fighter--give them Heal as a class skill. Your typical soldier or mercenary should know how to staunch his own bleeding and give some first aid.
Of course, any character participate in any of those activities, so it is not as if Fighters and Barbarians are entirely excluded here. The problem lies in the fact that they don't have any special abilities to contribute to those areas of gameplay (snip)
What would you suggest that isn't there? I don't think Fighters should get a lot of showy magically like abilities 'cause it doesn't fit the flavor of the class.
One thing I think is important to note again is that since Fighters get a TON of bonus feats, players of fighters should realize that since they can build a lot of their combat build with Bonus Feats alone (and Weapon Specialization is taken out of the "necessary feats taken" because they now have Weapon Training as a non-feat track), they can take a lot of non-combat feats for their "normal" feats, which will help them be more well-rounded if that's the kind of Fighter you want to play. Plus there are some neat feats easily accessible to Fighters that give them some options beyond "I hit it with my sword." The "Dazzling Display" feat tree for instance--using Intimidate to create an area Fear effect, essentially.
I think what maybe hurts the Fighter the most is simply the pre-assumed mindset that all a Fighter is is "I hit it with my sword." With the skills they now have and the possible ways you can build them, you could be very creative with your Fighter character and have him capable of a lot of cool, non-combat things, but it's necessary to break out of that "combat only" mindset first.
I'll agree with you on that point Maradin, that skills are less an issue in PF than they were before... to the point that the Fighter can use his abundance of feats for Skill Focus if he so desires.
However, that still does not solve all issues the Fighter has. A straight Fighter, no multiclass, is simply outclassed in any Role he might try and fill at later levels.
That isn't to say that you can find enjoyment in playing the class, or that he isn't capable of doing it at all, it's that there are clearly better options out there than him. Which sucks for a baseline core class.
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I am a big proponent for the Fighter class getting additional mechanics that are UNIQUE to the Fighter class, giving him something that he can do that no one else does.
If that's special rules for feats or AoO, or adding a morale mechanic to the game that he can take full advantage of... it's gotta be something other than just more +'s to stuff.
However, that still does not solve all issues the Fighter has. A straight Fighter, no multiclass, is simply outclassed in any Role he might try and fill at later levels.
How so? I'd say a Fighter's niche is strength in melee/weapons mastery. I think that's a fine role to play. It may not be as "shiny" as calling down divine flame upon one's enemies, but it's as valid a role as anyone else's.
And as much as people exalt those who can blast enemies from afar or who can skillmonkey their way through things, you need someone who can keep the monster at toe-to-toe effectively so the people casting from the back can remain unmolested, or guard the skillmonkey's back while he's at work. Maybe to some it's a thankless job, but it's needed and it's what the Fighter's there for.
I am a big proponent for the Fighter class getting additional mechanics that are UNIQUE to the Fighter class, giving him something that he can do that no one else does.If that's special rules for feats or AoO, or adding a morale mechanic to the game that he can take full advantage of... it's gotta be something other than just more +'s to stuff.
I think maybe swapping a bonus feat or something on the weapon/armor mastery tree for AOO--or perhaps flanking, something a fighter should excel at--that would be nice.
It's still going to make him Melee God, though, just in a different way.
The morale mechanic... some of the things you can now do with Intimidate aren't unique to Fighters, but certainly they are one of few classes that can easily excel at it.
As for more +s to stuff, sometimes simple is best. What I like about the Armor and Weapon trees is that it makes the Fighter a LOT less equipment dependent than he used to be. That's a big deal, IMO.
Well ... in pathfinder things are a little better ... now getting ranks in 'not class' skill is not penalized as in 3,5, meaning that you can get a good rank in any skill without too much skill point cost.
Fighter gets a lot of feats ... realy a lot ... it should be not a great sacrifice using one as "skill focus" ( which is better than in 3,5, giving 4 skill points after level 10), if you really want a good rank in one ability.
Problem is many players are just 'power players',they must dominate the group, the feel they cannot live without the more powerfull fighter in the word, they feel they cannot start with less than 20 in strenght at first level, so they do not put any char point in intelligence, wisdom, charisma ( someone often ask me (as their DM) if they can reduce intelligence and charisma under the minimum, just to put more even more points in strenght ).
And after this they complain about not getting enought skill points .. well, you cannot eat your cake and have it, too ... get 12 or 14 in intelligence ( also usefull for a few feats), and everything will be fine.
Bah, my post got eaten.
Here we go again. So, i see a lot of talk about fighters and as I play a barbarian, i`ll chip in on my findings. Barbarians, as they stand, are not as interesting as they may appear.
Roleplay wise, barbarians are quite rich characters to play. They tend to have quite an impact on the local npc's and on the party. They have the power to make their personalities felt and their opinions heard. They also have the power to pose a threat to things or enemies that would usually dismiss the party as innefectual. It is nice to know that, regardless of his funny fighting style, you can usually punch the villain in the face at least once. It is also nice for *them* to know that.
Combat wise, the Rage points are currently under a writers review and Jason is looking into making changes. Rage points are clumsy, the powers are often overpriced or restricted severely by level etc. Some powers simply do not work or are pointless to take. If you look at the list, there are really only a handful of worthy powers and most barbarians, due to the level limits, will end up looking pretty similar on the powers they choose.
I have a few bugbears about the class, mainly that, instead of simply adding to the class to encourage barbs to stick with it, penalties have been put in place to prevent multiclassing. The good powers require two things, ie lots of rage and "barbarian levels", both of which you lose when multiclassing. Fighters and rogues seem much more harmonious with regards to multiclassing and the barb is very much stuck with his strange rage mechanic and lack of feat options. This is made all the worse by unarmed fighting being the domain of the high wisdom monk (unarmed feats are very unfriendly to barbs) and with several weapon feats needing the fighter class. Barbs are thus very much limited to the "i have a two handed axe and i chop" style of combat.
The boring part of the barbarian is that it is very limiting with regards to what archetypes it allows. If you exist in the "fighter/ rogue" world or even the monk world, you seem to have more options and an ability to change your character progression to react to game events and life changes. Barbs are barbs for life, though it is possible for other classes to steal a lot of good barb powers by simply taking one barb level as a dip. The reverse is not true as the costs to the barb are so high.
I seriously considered dropping the barb class the other week and taking up fighter instead. As it stands, getting a lot of feats and tinkering around with different weapon options is a lot more interesting than the limited rage powers that cannot always be relied upon. I am going to stick with it through the next story to see if things improve and will then report back.
You may be right, but problem in 3.5 was that most power players just got 1 ( max 2) level in Barbarian, to get the benefit, even if it was not justified ... now benefit are more progressive ... every level they become better and better in all their abilities... most classes are the same .... is not bad, it avoids abuses of the game ...
Anyhow in pathfinder, with the new skill system, you have more flexibility in customising your class ... less penalities for 'not class skills' ... is easier than in 3 ed.
Well, that problem still exists. You can take the single barbarian level and get some good rewards, like the movement boost and basic raging. I guess the only limit on that is the chaotic alignment requirement.
FIGTHERS AND BARBARIANS ARE BORING!
I really disagree. A character who's playing a slime mold could be an extremely interesting role player, it has nothing to do with their class mechanics or skills.
...this is ROLEplaying, not ROLLplaying. Any GM worth his or her salt will ignore what's on the character sheet in pure interaction scenes and allow NPCs to react accordingly instead of requiring a die roll. When I GM, I prefer to run such scenes in this fashion, calling only for a die roll if the players are going off in a harmful tangent and I need a way to pull their fat out of the fire (such as insulting the NPC who has the information they need to succeed on their quest).
LOL, after reading your entire book I came to the conclusion that this statement was a suitable synopsis. I agree whole-heartedly!
Out of combat play consists of several sub-categories. Of the top of my head I can identify:Social PC/NPC Interaction (this is often the crux of the proverbial roleplaying)
Movement and Surmounting Obstacles to Movement
Recovery and Preparation for Other Activities [Especially for Combat] (Planning/Information Gathering, Crafting/Buying, Buffing and Healing/Recovering)
Social Interaction - See Maradin quoted above.
Movement & Surmounting Obstacles - This IS what Fighters, Barbarians, & anyone else with above average STR DOES WELL. Not to mention actually have the Class Skills to boot. You don't need spells to Swim, Climb, Jump if you have +5 to +9 in a skill at 1st level. Hand him the rope and wait a round or two... BAM! Obstacle Surmounted.
Recovery and Preparation - This also falls into Maradin's quote above... mostly Plannin & Information Gathering. However, someone else mentioned taking HEAL skill cross-classed, I will add that you might want SURVIVAL skill for the same reasons as most of my DMs have allowed it in a similar 'first-aid' as well as 'hunting & gahtering' for the party to save money on rations. This keeps them busy, if nothing else they can assist the Ranger doing so.
Crafting is a matter of feat/skill selection, not what the class does and does not get. Not all fighters are going to know how to make weapons and armor, though some might. Some might even know how to scribe scrolls... that is a feat choice, just not a fighter bonus feat.
Healing & Buffing is simply put, not their job! (Fighter & Barbarian) Unless you have a group made up entirely of Fighters & Barbarians, in which case they should be WELL stocked in CURE XXX POTIONS, REMOVE XXX POTIONS, Etc. After 1st level or sometime during I usually try and make sure the "Healer" in the party has at least one Cure L. Wounds Potion incase he gets dropped. *whispers* Save the Cleric, Save the W... Party!
Side Note:
One of the most entertaining characters I ever played was a Wood elf Barbarian, sadly he only got to level 7. Survival skill left him with the knowledge that giant spider legs were OK to eat, but when asked "Anyone have any questions?" by the Duke (quest giver) he proceeded to ask many, many questions to include "What is yellow stuff?" aka scrambled eggs that were on his breakfast plate.
Another one was Vulgaar, a barbarian who went out of his way to make sure people did not like him, much like Sawyer on Lost. Much to the party's dismay he also thought he knew EVERYTHING and shared it A LOT!