
Takilla |
Ok, so I'm playing a wizard in our campaign. My thinking was to basically specialize in making useful magic items for the party and myself. There are several of us playing but it's me and 2 other guys trading off on GMing every couple levels. Not ideal really but it's working ok ... that way one person doesn't have to GM the whole time and can play a char.
The other thing we decided was that we weren't going to just follow every module or just throw in random magic items as that basically results in the chars selling off 90% of the stuff they get to buy stuff they really want ... which is dum. So we're basically taking the advice from the Magic Item Compendium published in 3.5 and the GMs are placing magic items in the treasure that they think the players will actually want that will keep their wealth levels about right. So here's the problem: if my wizard makes items she can make them at half price. So if you look at her wealth level in terms of item worth ... it looks like 16000 ... but she really only received 10000 worth of stuff but used the extra gold to make stuff. So basically: how would the GM place items for her when it's her turn to get something? If they consider he wealth 16000 ... she shouldn't be getting anything. Does that make any sense? Any ideas on how to handle this?

Sean K Reynolds Contributor |

Takilla |
If you're concerned about her apparent wealth level compared to the other PCs because she carries self-crafted items and thus has more wealth than she "should" at her present level, you should read this article by yours truly:
Ok, so I'm not out of my mind, that makes sense. I'm thinking since in PF it isn't costing her exp though she should maybe do something to make up for that as well. Maybe have her Exceptional Artisan feat give her that or something. Thanks for the info.

Diego Bastet |

Having played from level 2 to level 19 a wizard that took almost all magic item creation feats, I can say that this isn't a big issue.
I actually think that the half gp cost to create magic items is somewhat compensated with the half gp got when selling the items on the market, and worse still, the xp cost to create the items.
The biggest advantage is to be able to get (from your own creation) the EXACT item you want (unless, of course, the dm really let you find "any item under the community gp limit" that you want, to matter how uncommon).

Sean K Reynolds Contributor |

Thanks Sean, that clarifies an issue from a long-deceased thread. I hadn't come across that article on your site before.
By the way, just got my copy of Ghostwalk. Mine had a wierd flaming donut sketch. Thanks!
Heh, that's an ophanite, a type of fire angel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophan
quest-master |
I actually think that the half gp cost to create magic items is somewhat compensated with the half gp got when selling the items on the market, and worse still, the xp cost to create the items.
Actually, the X cost to craft magic items has been done away with in Pathfinder. The actual biggest balancing cost which DMs often neglect is TIME.
While the wizard is twiddling away precious days imbuing a his newest creation with extraordinary powers, the world goes on.
By the time the wizard is finished, the enemy of the PCs has taken advantage of their downtime to prepare the next step of his nefarious plot and tightened the security of his stronghold while doing so.
By the time the wizard is finished, the roaming monsters have laid waste to yet another village.
By the time the wizard is finished, the city is under attack by an army of pirates. Ooh! Time to put the new staff to use!
Time management is one of the most underappreciated methods of balancing a party's attempts at increasing their power beyond managability.
Also take into consideration that a 1-week-to-create magic item does not have to be finished in a straight week. Feel free to interrupt item creation with an urgent plot twist or sudden opportunity for adventure but let the wizard finish his stuff later. You can't usually prevent the wizard from making magic items without pissing off the player. You can however delay the completion of the magic item until the wizard gets back from ogre slaying and what not (less worry for the DM while compensating the player with a fun game experience).
In addition, for my previous campaign, I was considering making the wizard have to learn the recipe for each magic item individually instead of taking magic item creation feats. A captured or discovered spellbook would also contain recipes for crafting certain magic items.
For example, in an arctic region, there would be plenty of reasons to find a freezing weapon or cold resistance armor/amulet recipe because the ingredients are so much more common in a cold climate.

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Jal Dorak wrote:Thanks Sean, that clarifies an issue from a long-deceased thread. I hadn't come across that article on your site before.
By the way, just got my copy of Ghostwalk. Mine had a wierd flaming donut sketch. Thanks!
Heh, that's an ophanite, a type of fire angel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophan
Cool, thanks Sean!

Swordslinger |
Actually, the X cost to craft magic items has been done away with in Pathfinder. The actual biggest balancing cost which DMs often neglect is TIME.
Time should never be a balancing factor, it's a story consideration.
Otherwise you screw over PCs in very fast moving campaigns and give big benefits to PCs in slow moving ones, where the DM may not care much about how much time passes.
The rules should accommodate as many play styles as possible. If that means that the campaign is one long running adventure where the PCs rapidly move from place to place, then so be it. If the campaign features months or even years of downtime between adventures, that should work too.
Long-term Time costs should never be a balancing factor. The only time we should be worried about time is if you're talking about in combat, or something you do in hostile territory.
As far as Sean's article, I think he forgot a couple things.
First, XP cost isn't a big drawback because you get *more* XP for being lower in level, meaning that you make up the difference and sometimes end up actually being higher level for having crafted items, depending on when your DM gives out XP. So XP costs sometimes resulted in the character who paid the cost getting more XP than his friends.
Second, magic items are way better than feats, especially at high levels where you are constantly scaling the extra item value you get, yet your feats don't scale. It may work out at lower levels that the benefit from craft wondrous item isn't much better than what you'd get from combat casting, but at higher levels, that extra 25,000 or 50,000 gp worth of magic items is going to be in all respects, a better choice.

Crusader of Logic |

I can't get anything to load right now, including that article and my PF guide. But if crafting has an XP cost that must be paid by the crafter that just encourages him to only make things for himself. Yeah, riding the gravy train is nice. But it only applies if you're only making stuff for yourself. Otherwise you drop too far. If someone else can pay the cost, or there is no cost then sure, why not make stuff for the other guys?

Sean K Reynolds Contributor |

First, XP cost isn't a big drawback because you get *more* XP for being lower in level, meaning that you make up the difference and sometimes end up actually being higher level for having crafted items, depending on when your DM gives out XP. So XP costs sometimes resulted in the character who paid the cost getting more XP than his friends.
The amount of XP spent on item creation is trivial enough that the level difference is irrelevant, or at least it's not the big deal that your comment makes it out to be. Say you're a Clr10 and you want to "spend" 1/3 of your wealth at that level creating the bestest mace you can. Wealth at level 10 = 49,000 gp. 1/3 of that is 16,333 gp. That means you're spending 32,666 gp and 1,306 xp on Uber Item of Clericality. A party of 4 10th-level characters earns 3,000 xp for defeating an EL10 challenge, which is 750 xp per character. So after two level-appropriate challenges for your group, your crafting character has caught up to the average party level ... in general, your character is going to be behind the rest of the group for a couple of encounters every time the rest of the group levels. Woo. So it's not like you're 2-3 levels behind for a long time and you'll be rakin' in the xp because of the level disparity. And unless your DM is doing something weird (like saving up four weeks' worth of xp for one giant award), I don't see how your lower-level character is suddenly going to jump ahead of the other characters.
Second, magic items are way better than feats, especially at high levels where you are constantly scaling the extra item value you get, yet your feats don't scale.
Strange, most people believe that feats are more valuable than items because you have tons and tons of gp worth of magic items (and you can always go quest for money in easy areas that won't net you any xp) yet you have a very limited number of feats. :) "Most people" meaning "the designers of 3e, who went out of their way to greatly limit the ability to put feats into magic items because at high level it would be trivial to buy up all the feats you wanted in the form of magic items."
It may work out at lower levels that the benefit from craft wondrous item isn't much better than what you'd get from combat casting, but at higher levels, that extra 25,000 or 50,000 gp worth of magic items is going to be in all respects, a better choice.
I think your math is suspect. An "extra 25-50,000 gp worth of magic items" means you're talking about a character that's (for example) crafted 50-100,000 gp worth of items at half cost (thus, 25-50k is extra). Are you creating characters from scratch and letting them spend ALL their money on crafted items? That's unrealistic (an organically-grown character with crafting feats is going to have some found items and some crafted items). Give me a concrete example and we'll debate it ... the above general term is vague enough (I don't know what you mean by "higher levels," either) that I can't address it.

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Whoops, Sean you misquoted in your last post.
But I do agree with your last point about organic characters. Typically for characters beyond 4th level I give them around half their wealth in randomly rolled treasure which they can sell or keep. Most of my players really enjoy not having hoards of gold to spend on anything.

Emperor7 |

Crusader of Logic wrote:Second, magic items are way better than feats, especially at high levels where you are constantly scaling the extra item value you get, yet your feats don't scale.Strange, most people believe that feats are more valuable than items because you have tons and tons of gp worth of magic items (and you can always go quest for money in easy areas that won't net you any xp) yet you have a very limited number of feats. :) "Most people" meaning "the designers of 3e, who went out of their way...
Darn post monster ate my post and kicked me out. They must be ornery today.
Agree and disagree - While feats work in AMF and can't be stolen, they are far more scarce (infrequent) than magic items. Combine with the flexibility to combine/customize magic items at higher levels and they really become attractive.
Especially items that mimic feats, like rods of metamagic. You trade a bit of power (qty/day) but gain some significant advantages and help the rationing of feats.

hogarth |

The amount of XP spent on item creation is trivial enough that the level difference is irrelevant, or at least it's not the big deal that your comment makes it out to be.
The amount of XP spent on item creation in Pathfinder is zero; certainly a trivial amount.
I really don't get your reasoning in that article and how it's supposed to pertain to the Pathfinder RPG. Let's say you're making a level 20 wizard in Pathfinder: the cost of one feat (Craft Wondrous Item) pales in comparison to the 880,000 gp worth of free equipment (potentially) the wizard could have at level 20, especially if you consider that Pathfinder gives extra feats.
Are you creating characters from scratch and letting them spend ALL their money on crafted items? That's unrealistic (an organically-grown character with crafting feats is going to have some found items and some crafted items).
Isn't that the opposite of what you're arguing in your article (i.e. it's fair to let the character craft whatever he wants because he paid for it with a feat and/or XP)?

Crusader of Logic |

This wasn't said by me, but I'm replying anyways.
The amount of XP spent on item creation is trivial enough that the level difference is irrelevant, or at least it's not the big deal that your comment makes it out to be. Say you're a Clr10 and you want to "spend" 1/3 of your wealth at that level creating the bestest mace you can. Wealth at level 10 = 49,000 gp. 1/3 of that is 16,333 gp. That means you're spending 32,666 gp and 1,306 xp on Uber Item of Clericality. A party of 4 10th-level characters earns 3,000 xp for defeating an EL10 challenge, which is 750 xp per character. So after two level-appropriate challenges for your group, your crafting character has caught up to the average party level ... in general, your character is going to be behind the rest of the group for a couple of encounters every time the rest of the group levels. Woo. So it's not like you're 2-3 levels behind for a long time and you'll be rakin' in the xp because of the level disparity. And unless your DM is doing something weird (like saving up four weeks' worth of xp for one giant award), I don't see how your lower-level character is suddenly going to jump ahead of the other characters.
Wealth scales exponentially. 5 levels later he has over 4 times that amount of gold. For that matter, 5 levels earlier he had less than 20% that amount of gold. With that said take any XP calculator such as this one to compare. Notice how if one of those level 10s is actually a level 9 they get 1,013 XP, or a little over a third more? That's about standard. The gap is self correcting. In the above example, you get 263 extra XP from your routine fights 5 times, and you're now ahead by 9 points. Which isn't that big a deal, but is still ahead.
Getting 2-3 levels behind would be counterproductive. This means you're a cohort. 1 level behind however is a common and smart optimization technique known as riding the gravy train, where you intentionally craft enough to be one level behind and thereby get roughly a third more XP which fuels more crafting, or anything else with an XP cost.
Strange, most people believe that feats are more valuable than items because you have tons and tons of gp worth of magic items (and you can always go quest for money in easy areas that won't net you any xp) yet you have a very limited number of feats. :) "Most people" meaning "the designers of 3e, who went out of their way to greatly limit the ability to put feats into magic items because at high level it would be trivial to buy up all the feats you wanted in the form of magic items."
Well, they aren't. Just take a look at feats. They are flat out inferior to class features. Class features are all over the board. Items are accounting for at least 5 points of to hit and damage, various special properties required to keep up on the damage dealing spectrum, 5 points of every saving throw, nearly all of your AC, your miss chance if any, your complete ability to deal with flying, invisible, teleporting, high ground holding, tactic using, or any other adjective referring to an enemy that does something smarter than charge at you while shouting "LEEROY JENKINS!" Yeah. No feat comes close to that. Even when you consider there is a legitimate WotC way to get any feat (from a large list) for 8k. Some of them cost less.
This is the melee comparison. There's less of a difference for casters because spells can duplicate or supersede some items, and they get feats that are actually worth something such as Quicken Spell which is so blatantly superior to the minor melee feats like +1 to hit with one weapon and other such much weaker things they get it's not even funny. Even so, their gear still is ahead of their feats. Just not by so great a margin.
I think your math is suspect. An "extra 25-50,000 gp worth of magic items" means you're talking about a character that's (for example) crafted 50-100,000 gp worth of items at half cost (thus, 25-50k is extra). Are you creating characters from scratch and letting them spend ALL their money on crafted items? That's unrealistic (an organically-grown character with crafting feats is going to have some found items and some crafted items). Give me a concrete example and we'll debate it ... the above general term is vague enough (I don't know what you mean by "higher levels," either) that I can't address it.
The math is flawed, but not for the reason you think. In order to get everything for half cost, your craft feats would have to cover everything. Craft Wondrous is the broadest feat in that it covers the greatest variety of items that matter. But even it doesn't cover everything. Weapons, armor, rings... those matter too. Therefore, you would need every craft feat to do that. This pretty much ensures it is an Artificer only thing, except that class is not in PF. At least not yet.
Found items are practically guaranteed to be inferior to items you already have, unless you're 'just breaking in' so to speak and have to get your Ring of Protection +1 (example) somewhere. That means they are just gold fodder for what you actually want. A simple comparison of PC WBL vs NPC WBL demonstrates this flawlessly. Since there is really no reason not to craft if you are able since it means that you get twice as much for the same cost? Yes please. The only reason why you'd ever have non crafted stuff aside from the very rare getting lucky is because you didn't have the time to make it. DM fiat blocks anything, ergo it means nothing.

Daron Farina |

I've been a little concerned about 0 XP crafting in Pathfinder myself, and have been thinking about things I could do. What I always come back to is giving the PCs an amount of downtime based on level, sort of like a wealth table, but a downtime table. Keep in mind that I am making no claim that the below numbers are balanced or fair, I just mean it as an example.
Level: Downtime
1: 1
2: 3
3: 7
4: 12
5: 17
6: 23
7: 30
8: 38
9: 47
etc.
So, this means that by the time a level 3 character get to level 4, they should have had 5 days of downtime. Perhaps different classes would have different downtime tables, as Wizards need far more downtime to be effective than a fighter, for example.

Crusader of Logic |

The gear the Fighter must have to function is most often crafted for efficiency purposes. This takes time. Therefore they're actually more downtime dependent.
Not to mention the obvious flaws with a hard downtime setup as it forces the DM to pace things a certain way. Though the higher level characters would naturally have more downtime since fewer things happen on a big enough scale for them to care about. I mean really. How often does something threaten to Destroy The World? Exactly. The fact they also need the most (craft time is based on cost) is simply incidental. So the principle works, trying to nail it down doesn't so well.

Sean K Reynolds Contributor |

I really don't get your reasoning in that article and how it's supposed to pertain to the Pathfinder RPG.
Well, it's not, seeing as I wrote that article about 5 years ago. :)
Let's say you're making a level 20 wizard in Pathfinder: the cost of one feat (Craft Wondrous Item) pales in comparison to the 880,000 gp worth of free equipment (potentially) the wizard could have at level 20, especially if you consider that Pathfinder gives extra feats.
And if that wizard had taken Combat Reflexes instead of CWI. Over 20 levels of adventuring, how many times did the wizard make a Ref save because of that +2, and thus take half damage, and not get knocked out of the fight?
Or if he had taken Spell Focus. How many times did the wizard's opponent fail a save because of that +1, and therefore lose the fight?Or Improved Initiative, and act before his opponent and not die?
Which of those is worth that extra gear? And again, if you're the GM and you're letting your player craft ALL of his gear with one feat, you're being too permissive.
Isn't that the opposite of what you're arguing in your article (i.e. it's fair to let the character craft whatever he wants because he paid for it with a feat and/or XP)?
There is a difference between, "the character paid for this ability with a feat, don't hose them for doing so," and "we're creating characters from scratch at level X and this character with Scribe Scroll spent ALL his wealth making the highest-level spell scrolls he can cast."
Well, they aren't. Just take a look at feats. They are flat out inferior to class features. Class features are all over the board. Items are accounting for at least 5 points of to hit and damage, various special properties required to keep up on the damage dealing spectrum, 5 points of every saving throw, nearly all of your AC, your miss chance if any, your complete ability to deal with flying, invisible, teleporting, high ground holding, tactic using, or any other adjective ...
Except all the crazy magic items and class features you're talking about are expensive or high-level. +5 to hit and damage is 50,000gp, which a PC can't afford until 11th level (and more realistically, not until 14th, using the atk/def/misc distribution of wealth guideline). +5 to every save is 25,000, a PC can't afford that until 8th level (realistically until 12th). likewise for +5 armor. And so on.
By comparison, most of the "lowly" feats are things you can take at low levels and provide a consistent benefit over and over again for your entire adventuring career. Even Toughness, which people dismiss because "it's just 3 hit points" can save your life many times in an adventuring career (write down how many times your non-Toughness character drops to -1, -2, or -3 hit points and can't do anything, or how many times he dies at -12, -11, or -10 ... if you had Toughness, you'd still be up and/or alive). Look at Whirlwind Attack ... as a full attack, make one attack against EVERY target in reach ... what magic item duplicates that for a fighter? And a fighter can get it at level 4. Look at Spring Attack ... what magic item lets you move before and after EVERY single attack you make, all day long, without an AOO? It's available at 4th level. Look at Greater Two-Weapon Fighting ... what magic item gives you +2/+6 to hit and two extra attacks per round? Available at level 11. Feats are the hobbits of the d20 system ... easy to overlook, but consistent and capable of accomplishing things that wizards, dwarves, and elves were unable to do.

Swordslinger |
Strange, most people believe that feats are more valuable than items because you have tons and tons of gp worth of magic items (and you can always go quest for money in easy areas that won't net you any xp) yet you have a very limited number of feats. :) "Most people" meaning "the designers of 3e, who went out of their way...
Going on quests for money in easy areas? What is this a MMORPG? No sane DM is going to let their PCs do something like that, because it would be incredibly boring and just amounts to the PCs running around grinding XP instead of doing a real quest. Yes, you're right that you can do that if we were playing some kind of video game, but in a tabletop game, most people are going to want to do a quest with some degree of difficulty, instead of wandering around orc caves randomly killing orcs with 10th level characters.
Sean, do people seriously pull that crap in your games? Because I've never seen it ever in any D&D session I've played in.
About feats versus magic items in general,
Magic items scale. There's really no denying that. As you level up you get more gold and your magic items get better. But Iron will isn't doing much, it's just sitting there collecting dust. But I'll get to that more in the next section.
I think your math is suspect. An "extra 25-50,000 gp worth of magic items" means you're talking about a character that's (for example) crafted 50-100,000 gp worth of items at half cost (thus, 25-50k is extra). Are you creating characters from scratch and letting them spend ALL their money on crafted items? That's unrealistic (an organically-grown character with crafting feats is going to have some found items and some crafted items). Give me a concrete example and we'll debate it ... the above general term is vague enough (I don't know what you mean by "higher levels," either) that I can't address it.
Unrealistic? Not so much. If you're a wizard, the majority of your items are likely to be crafted because they're mostly going to be wondrous items. In an organic campaign, where the DM uses the treasure tables in the DMG, you're going to get a lot of crap that the group can't use. Some of this crap, like chaos diamonds, is ridiculously overpriced and when you sell it can be turned into a big pile of crafting gold.
If the character isn't organic, but might just be designed for a 12th level game (yes this happens quite frequently actually), then the character can just pour all his wealth into item crafting. And in fact, your article says that doing this is okay.
Now onto comparing magic item value versus feats. I'm going to divide this into parts.
1.Feats don't scale: We can both agree on that I think. Regardless of when you take it, mobility, dodge and iron will all do the same thing. So the 5th level guy is getting the exact same benefit out of mobility that the 15th level guy is.
2. Magic item power does scale: That is, if I buy an item worth 25% of my character wealth, it's going to be a better item at level 15 than it will be at level 5. That's also pretty self-explanatory because a 50,000 gp item is going to be better than a 2,250 gp item. The fact is that your magic items are constantly becoming better as you level up, because you're gaining more gold.
Now lets say a character uses 50% of his wealth to craft items, and the other half to purchase items. This is entirely possible, especially in campaigns where DMs hand out mostly gold so as to avoid worrying about magic item distribution problems. So lets assume that happens, and the guy uses 25% of his wealth to create magic items. Because using crafting basically doubles the gold you put in. You can craft a 5000 gp item with 2500 gp worth of materials, then the character is going to double his investment. Since he's using half his wealth to do that, he's going to end up with 50% more wealth.
So going to the wealth by level table... lets see what we have.
At 5th level, the guy with craft wondrous has 4,500 gp in more magic items.
At 15th level, the guy with craft wondrous has 100,000 gp more in magic items.
Now in both cases, iron will, mobility and dodge haven't changed.
Thus, if both choices are balanced then dodge must be as valuable as item crafting at 5th level AND it must also be as valuable as item crafting at 15th level.
Thus dodge must = 4500 gp worth of items and it must also equal 100,000 gp worth of items.
But because of premise 2, namely that magic items scale in power based on value, we can say that dodge cannot both equal 4500 gp and 100,000 gp worth of items at the same time.
And that's not refutable, because to do so would mean that you'd be claiming that magic item value is irrelevant and that a 4500 gp item and a 100,000 gp item are the same in terms of power level.
Now lets take some feats heads up with some magic items. Keep in mind that while I'm talking about a metamagic rod here, the gold you gain from taking an item creation feat could be used on anything. Since for instance, I save 100,000 gp at 15th level by crafting my own wondrous items instead of buying them, I can then use the rest of my wealth to buy something else, since I don't need to spend it on items I've already made.
I'm going to use metamagic rods versus metamagic feats, because the rod is demonstratively better than the feat. Since you don't pay higher level slots to activate it, and it provides the same benefit. A metamagic lesser silent rod is worth 3000 gp, a greater one is worth 24,500 gp. Now given that we could gain 4500 gp by item crafting at 5th level, we could use 3000 gp of that to buy ourselves a lesser silent rod, which is better than anything that the silent spell feat could do for us. Similarly at 15th level we can buy a greater rod for 24,500 gp, which is a fraction of the 100,000 gp we made by item crafting. We could in fact buy all three types of silent metamagic rods and still have over 50,000 gp left to buy other stuff.
So there's a mathematical comparison of a metamagic feat (silent spell) versus an item crafting feat.
By comparison, most of the "lowly" feats are things you can take at low levels and provide a consistent benefit over and over again for your entire adventuring career.
The flaw here is that not all games start at low level. You may well just be making a character at 8th level or 10th or 15th. The reasons are varied. Maybe you're joining an already running campaign, or maybe the campaign itself starts high-level, or perhaps it's a one-shot adventure.
The point is that not everyone starts at level 1 and making the assumption that they do can lead to flawed conclusions as far as balance goes. The old 2nd edition balance paradigm of "the wizard can afford to be awesome at high-level because he sucks at low-level" really needs to go away. Classes, feats and well everything, should be balanced at all levels, because a game may well end before 5th level or a game may well start at 15th level. There's no guarantee you'll ever see 1st level or that you'll ever see 20th level. So you just can't balance things based on the idea that they'd have been used before then.
Look at Whirlwind Attack ... as a full attack, make one attack against EVERY target in reach ... what magic item duplicates that for a fighter? And a fighter can get it at level 4.
Well I'm not sure why we're comparing fighter feats to magic items anyway, given that fighters can't even choose to take item crafting.

hogarth |

There is a difference between, "the character paid for this ability with a feat, don't hose them for doing so," and "we're creating characters from scratch at level X and this character with Scribe Scroll spent ALL his wealth making the highest-level spell scrolls he can cast."
So you're saying that a player with a crafting feat should be able to attribute somewhere between 0% and 100% of his wealth to crafting? It's hard to argue with that. :-)
And if that wizard had taken Combat Reflexes instead of CWI. Over 20 levels of adventuring, how many times did the wizard make a Ref save because of that +2, and thus take half damage, and not get knocked out of the fight?
And if that wizard had taken CWI instead of Lightning Reflexes and had been able to afford a +4 Cloak of Resistance instead of a +3 Cloak of Resistance? Or had been able to afford twice as many pearls of power so he could cast blah, blah, blah, etc., etc.
In my campaign, there is no "pre-crafting" included in your starting wealth. Once the campaign has started, you're free to go nuts (and I will adjust the treasure that the PCs receive accordingly, if necessary).

Crusader of Logic |

Sean, first off it's Lightning Reflexes. Not Combat Reflexes, which a Wizard has no business taking unless he's going for Ye Olde Spiked Chain Gish. Which means he has a 10% better chance to not take minor to moderate damage from some random AoE, which is the weakest threat a spell could possibly pose to him. Now consider +2 to 1 save is around oh... 2k or so, or perhaps lower... Yup. Items still trump feats. So do spells.
The Wizard can get +5 initiative for 6k. For that matter, so can anyone else. That becomes 3k if you have Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
+2 Int gives the +1 DCs and bonus spells. Getting that of a different bonus type... I forget the amount, but it's a four digit figure. At least it's probably more expensive than the other two, but that's really not saying much.
Toughness is one of the best examples of a feat that becomes less useful to you as you level. Several others that came up here also qualify such as Whirlwind Attack (by the time you get it, you're no longer being swarmed by weak enemies but instead facing smaller numbers of bigger enemies). Though he can get that for a +1 enhancement if he cares. Spring attack requires two garbage feats and even then only allows a single attack, which means you aren't doing that much, and the enemy can probably just 5' step to get you in reach anyways unless you have something boosting your speed substantially (See: Haste from boots or something). Two weapon fighting is a flat out inferior style. It's only worth considering if you are a construct or undead dual wielding life drinking wounding weapons with sneak attack or something. And that's only because of all the 'procs' combined with a high number of hits. Further, for 8k you get that (two extra attacks) for free, even if you aren't high enough level yet. You have to have regular TWF, but you'd have to do that anyways.

Crusader of Logic |

Many People wrote:Is this discussion going anywhere my dear colleagues? I've lost myself in the middle of the discussion, when I couldn't even find the point anymore.Many things.
The original topic was does the feat justify saving money. It got rather sidetracked with some crafting misconceptions which were corrected by myself and others. I think the original topic was resolved first though.

Quandary |

Personally, I would say this:
If a character is particulary of the viewpoint that the Item Creation Feats "aren't worth it", I would like-wise make many NPC Magic Users of this same opinion, which would just have the effect that magic items become harder to acquire, you need to find one of the "sub-par" Item Creator Casters who have the Feats to make stuff you like.
If the Character is open to taking at least one Item Creation Feat, then likewise, I'd make it an assumption that many other NPC Magic Users likewise took some sort of Item Creation Feats, including all the areas that the PC didn't specialize in, giving them an extra benefit to taking that one Item Creation Feat.
:-)

quest-master |
Time should never be a balancing factor, it's a story consideration.
Otherwise you screw over PCs in very fast moving campaigns and give big benefits to PCs in slow moving ones, where the DM may not care much about how much time passes.
The rules should accommodate as many play styles as possible. If that means that the campaign is one long running adventure where the PCs rapidly move from place to place, then so be it. If the campaign features months or even years of downtime between adventures, that should work too.
Long-term Time costs should never be a balancing factor. The only time we should be worried about time is if you're talking about in combat, or something you do in hostile territory.
Time is already a built-in cost. The DM has final say in how fast or slow the campaign moves, so if the PC crafting magic items seems underbenefited at any given time then the DM can create a downtime opportunity. The point is that if the PCs are crafting their items to the point that it's getting difficult to keep up, then a delay or distraction can be used to slow down magic item creation.
If the PCs are moving rapidly from place to place with little downtime, then the DM can simply rule that magic item creation time is reduced for some reason or another (for example, the PCs have arrived in a location where the necessary ingredients for the magic item are more easily found or better quality in some way as to make crafting easier).
Time is a factor whether one chooses to accept it or not. Time is a tool that must be used responsibly but is a viable tool nonetheless.

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Magic items scale. There's really no denying that. As you level up you get more gold and your magic items get better. But Iron will isn't doing much, it's just sitting there collecting dust. But I'll get to that more in the next section.
I am glad sean is here to debate with us :)
anyways i would like to point out that yes SOME or ALOT of feats dont scale but more are now, the +2 to 2 skills feats get better at high lvl and i been thinking about doing the same for the save feats making them +4 when get +x in save. that would make me think about taking some of those +2 feats(u can pass that along sean if like :P)
Classes, feats and well everything, should be balanced at all levels, because a game may well end before 5th level or a game may well start at 15th level.
4e does a really good job of that you know ;)

Swordslinger |
Time is already a built-in cost. The DM has final say in how fast or slow the campaign moves, so if the PC crafting magic items seems underbenefited at any given time then the DM can create a downtime opportunity. The point is that if the PCs are crafting their items to the point that it's getting difficult to keep up, then a delay or distraction can be used to slow down magic item creation.If the PCs are moving rapidly from place to place with little downtime, then the DM can simply rule that magic item creation time is reduced for some reason or another (for example, the PCs have arrived in a location where the necessary ingredients for the magic item are more easily found or better quality in some way as to make crafting easier).
Time is a factor whether one chooses to accept it or not. Time is a tool that must be used responsibly but is a viable tool nonetheless.
The problem of course is that this requires an advanced DM familiar with the rules set and having a general idea of how much time he should give his PCs to do various things. But that was one of the main problems with 3.5. It was incredibly hard to DM, there were hundreds of factors you had to consider, and it led to a lot of DM's being total hard asses because they became afraid to give PCs anything, because they're afraid of being burned. This actually happens a lot to novice DMs.
The rules should accommodate a lax DM style where the DM doesn't have to worry about managing things like time unless he specifically wants to. The game shouldn't be at risk of becoming unbalanced because the DM says, "OK, 6 months pass between your last adventure and now..."
That's just too much for a DM to worry about.

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The problem of course is that this requires an advanced DM familiar with the rules set and having a general idea of how much time he should give his PCs to do various things. But that was one of the main problems with 3.5. It was incredibly hard to DM, there were hundreds of factors you had to consider, and it led to a lot of DM's being total hard asses because they became afraid to give PCs anything, because they're afraid of being burned. This actually happens a lot to novice DMs.The rules should accommodate a lax DM style where the DM doesn't have to worry about managing things like time unless he specifically wants to. The game shouldn't be at risk of becoming unbalanced because the DM says, "OK, 6 months pass between your last adventure and now..."
That's just too much for a DM to worry about.
I would say that is the reason many people like 3rd Edition - it requires, maybe even expects, system mastery. Players argue this all the time, but I would say it equally applies to DMs. It's downright impossible to have a game that allows the players a detailed complex system but is intuitive and simplistic for DMs. At least, not one that has both sides using the same rules.

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quest-master wrote:
Time is already a built-in cost. The DM has final say in how fast or slow the campaign moves, so if the PC crafting magic items seems underbenefited at any given time then the DM can create a downtime opportunity. The point is that if the PCs are crafting their items to the point that it's getting difficult to keep up, then a delay or distraction can be used to slow down magic item creation.If the PCs are moving rapidly from place to place with little downtime, then the DM can simply rule that magic item creation time is reduced for some reason or another (for example, the PCs have arrived in a location where the necessary ingredients for the magic item are more easily found or better quality in some way as to make crafting easier).
Time is a factor whether one chooses to accept it or not. Time is a tool that must be used responsibly but is a viable tool nonetheless.
The problem of course is that this requires an advanced DM familiar with the rules set and having a general idea of how much time he should give his PCs to do various things. But that was one of the main problems with 3.5. It was incredibly hard to DM, there were hundreds of factors you had to consider, and it led to a lot of DM's being total hard asses because they became afraid to give PCs anything, because they're afraid of being burned. This actually happens a lot to novice DMs.
The rules should accommodate a lax DM style where the DM doesn't have to worry about managing things like time unless he specifically wants to. The game shouldn't be at risk of becoming unbalanced because the DM says, "OK, 6 months pass between your last adventure and now..."
That's just too much for a DM to worry about.
if you want that just go back to the old 2e ways, where you had to find rare materials to make items and do away with this whole accountant style way of playing, take out the magic shops, u want me to buy what? how do i know its magcial? i only have 1k on me u want it in trade, no i dont got any magic items here ect. in my games when i give it items they got to work to find places to sell them and even then they dont always get the BOOK value.

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Swordslinger wrote:I would say that is the reason many people like 3rd Edition - it requires, maybe even expects, system mastery. Players argue this all the time, but I would say it equally applies to DMs. It's downright impossible to have a game that allows the players a detailed complex system but is intuitive and simplistic for DMs. At least, not one that has both sides using the same rules.
The problem of course is that this requires an advanced DM familiar with the rules set and having a general idea of how much time he should give his PCs to do various things. But that was one of the main problems with 3.5. It was incredibly hard to DM, there were hundreds of factors you had to consider, and it led to a lot of DM's being total hard asses because they became afraid to give PCs anything, because they're afraid of being burned. This actually happens a lot to novice DMs.The rules should accommodate a lax DM style where the DM doesn't have to worry about managing things like time unless he specifically wants to. The game shouldn't be at risk of becoming unbalanced because the DM says, "OK, 6 months pass between your last adventure and now..."
That's just too much for a DM to worry about.
I think there is a lack of really good DMs in 3.5, and i think it is not going to get better only worst. Us older DMs need to show some of the new ones what they are doing wrong, i wish wizards instead of pumping out all the crap they do put on a book on HOW TO BE A GOOD DM IN ANY ED, maybe this company would do something like that(sean maybe u need to take up the torch heh)

Crusader of Logic |

I would say that is the reason many people like 3rd Edition - it requires, maybe even expects, system mastery. Players argue this all the time, but I would say it equally applies to DMs. It's downright impossible to have a game that allows the players a detailed complex system but is intuitive and simplistic for DMs. At least, not one that has both sides using the same rules.
I dunno about all that. But I do know that I wouldn't touch it if it did not stimulate and sharpen my mind, particularly the analytical and tactical bits. Without that, it is just Magical Tea Party at best. Free form bores me, and I have absolutely no reason to pay for something I can get for free.

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Jal Dorak wrote:Thanks Sean, that clarifies an issue from a long-deceased thread. I hadn't come across that article on your site before.
By the way, just got my copy of Ghostwalk. Mine had a wierd flaming donut sketch. Thanks!
Heh, that's an ophanite, a type of fire angel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophan
Makes me hearken back to my InNominee days.

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I think there is a lack of really good DMs in 3.5, and i think it is not going to get better only worst. Us older DMs need to show some of the new ones what they are doing wrong, i wish wizards instead of pumping out all the crap they do put on a book on HOW TO BE A GOOD DM IN ANY ED, maybe this company would do something like that(sean maybe u need to take up the torch heh)
You can't teach judgement and a lot of the other intangible things in a book. You either pick them up or you don't.
Part of your perception may also be the increasing lack of patience we tend to show the younger set as we get older. There's tons of material out there on "how to be a good DM" (even several Dummies books :), but the skill only comes with experience.

awp832 |

First off I'll declare that I'm on the fence on this one, so I'll probably make points for both sides.
But here's what's striking me at the moment. There are a lot of people on the boards who would argue (or have argued) that weapon focus isn't worth it. Or that combat casting isn't worth the paper it's printed on when skill focus concentration is out there. Power attack, cleave, TWF, etc etc, etc.... You can pretty much question any feat in the book. Except I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that any of the item creation feats (with maybe the exception of Brew Potion) are not worth taking. Now that doesn't prove, but it certainly suggests that people think these feats are either slightly or perhaps vastly superior to the other available feats.
Continuing on, I don't think that Paizo's remvoval of the XP cost from crafting magic items is a big deal. As has been mentioned it rarely put someone more than a level behind, if ever, and the XP you got for being a level down basically made up for the crafting XP. Paizo's removal of this basically just saves some time and some math. I support the change also because it was often the case that a party member would request an item from the crafters. They were free to accept/deny or ask due compensation of course, but every time they accepted they lost XP for helping a party member.. which just didn't seem right.
Now, it's true that most feats don't scale in the way that the above posters mentioned, but they do scale in a different way, namely that many feats are parts of feat trees. So a 15th level character may well get far more use out of say, combat expertise by picking said feat up at first level than he would if he picked it up at 15th. That would be done by the character with Expertise at level 1 already having Improved Trip and maybe Improved Disarm by level 15, where the character who just grabs Expertise at 15th level doesn't have those options. So yes, feats do kind of "scale".
Still, a wizard can grab pretty much any item he wants by just taking the one craft wonderous item feat. Cause he doesn't much care about potions or weapons/armor. Rings, rods, wands, and staves are all nice, but you can do without them (especially by picking the one you want most as your Bonded Item). That's the edpendeture of only a single feat for a considerable amount of wealth.

Crusader of Logic |

Wait, people have said Power Attack wasn't good?
It could be argued Forge Ring is an example of logic failure since you need to be high level to take it, but most of the rings are low level and would have been nice 5-10 levels ago. That's more a case of consistency (where DO all these rings of protection +1 come from) than ineffectiveness, though there aren't that many good rings in core. Outside it you get things like Entropic Deflection and Spell Battle which are the items that sell crafting feats, just like the games that sell systems.

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Still, a wizard can grab pretty much any item he wants by just taking the one craft wonderous item feat. Cause he doesn't much care about potions or weapons/armor. Rings, rods, wands, and staves are all nice, but you can do without them (especially by picking the one you want most as your Bonded Item). That's the edpendeture of only a single feat for a considerable amount of wealth.
Except the other restrictions which is that the wizard must have the spell on his spell list and in his spell book in order to craft the item in question. So that expends more resources to acquire the spell and scribe it (or use up freebies). Not a big deal for some standbys, but does prevent them making anything, anytime.

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Wait, people have said Power Attack wasn't good?
It could be argued Forge Ring is an example of logic failure since you need to be high level to take it, but most of the rings are low level and would have been nice 5-10 levels ago. That's more a case of consistency (where DO all these rings of protection +1 come from) than ineffectiveness, though there aren't that many good rings in core. Outside it you get things like Entropic Deflection and Spell Battle which are the items that sell crafting feats, just like the games that sell systems.
I think part of that is ring of protection getting hit with the nerf bat so it isn't as useful anymore. Most of the other rings are pretty good no matter your level.

Swordslinger |
I would say that is the reason many people like 3rd Edition - it requires, maybe even expects, system mastery. Players argue this all the time, but I would say it equally applies to DMs. It's downright impossible to have a game that allows the players a detailed complex system but is intuitive and simplistic for DMs. At least, not one that has both sides using the same rules.
There's a difference between system mastery and having a huge laundry list of stuff to worry about as a DM that actually prevents you from telling the story you want to tell.
I would hate for every single campaign to have to follow an exact time-based formula to make it balanced. The DM's job is already hard enough.
In fact, if there was one thing major that is missing from pathfinder, it's systems to cut down on DM preparation time, which is probably the one area that 4E really blows away 3.5.

Crusader of Logic |

Not really. In 3.5 you have to memorize general rules, then just remember when they apply. This hasn't changed in any variation of 3.5 thereof. In 4.0 you get a lot of things that are almost the same but not quite.
In other words, in 3.5 if you want to use say... a basilisk you just have to remember how it petrifies using a few keywords, what the DC is, and there you go. In 4.0 you would have to memorize every last word of the basilisk entry to avoid confusing it with say... a gorgon's petrify.
It's simpler to memorize some entries once, and then just remember some keywords thereafter than to have to remember every single word to avoid confusing it with something that is almost the same but isn't and doesn't stand out due to its generic nature.

awp832 |

Lets be honest, if you have the gold to craft magic items, you have the gold to get a scroll of the spell and put it into your book. That's not even close to a restriction. If you have the time to make a magic item, you have the time to spend one day scribing above spell into your book.. if you don't have it already.
Pros/cons of power attack non-withstanding (didn't you see the zillion threads about how power attack was nerfed as so not to be worth it?), that really wasn't the point of the comment at all.

Arakhor |

I would definitely reassess the required levels on item creation feats. Forge Ring is only ridiculously high (I assume) because of the Tolkien-esque flavour and Craft Staffs is really high too for some reason. Better still, since wands are staffs are essentially the same item of two different power categories, why not simply make it the same item creation feat?
More radically, why not get rename Forge Ring as Forge Jewellery, reduce its caster level and redefine the feat as imbuing all magical jewellery (removing that function from CWI, which is easily the most useful feat.)

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Not really. In 3.5 you have to memorize general rules, then just remember when they apply. This hasn't changed in any variation of 3.5 thereof. In 4.0 you get a lot of things that are almost the same but not quite.
In other words, in 3.5 if you want to use say... a basilisk you just have to remember how it petrifies using a few keywords, what the DC is, and there you go. In 4.0 you would have to memorize every last word of the basilisk entry to avoid confusing it with say... a gorgon's petrify.
It's simpler to memorize some entries once, and then just remember some keywords thereafter than to have to remember every single word to avoid confusing it with something that is almost the same but isn't and doesn't stand out due to its generic nature.
That's one of the things that is odd about 4th Edition - they call it "exception based design" but really it means "everything acts differently". To me, 3rd Edition is exception based design. You get a set of rules, say: how grapple works, and then a few abilities that change those rules: improved grab, Improved Grapple.

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I would definitely reassess the required levels on item creation feats. Forge Ring is only ridiculously high (I assume) because of the Tolkien-esque flavour and Craft Staffs is really high too for some reason. Better still, since wands are staffs are essentially the same item of two different power categories, why not simply make it the same item creation feat?
More radically, why not get rename Forge Ring as Forge Jewellery, reduce its caster level and redefine the feat as imbuing all magical jewellery (removing that function from CWI, which is easily the most useful feat.)
i really like how Arcane evolved redid the item creation feats, instead of basing them on objects, they base it on effect, so they got a single item use feat, a spell completion feat ect, that makes more sense to me.

Swordslinger |
In other words, in 3.5 if you want to use say... a basilisk you just have to remember how it petrifies using a few keywords, what the DC is, and there you go. In 4.0 you would have to memorize every last word of the basilisk entry to avoid confusing it with say... a gorgon's petrify.It's simpler to memorize some entries once, and then just remember some keywords thereafter than to have to remember every single word to avoid confusing it with something that is almost the same but isn't and doesn't stand out due to its generic nature.
It's not so much exception-based design that's the problem, but rather two issues.
The first is that in 3E, everything is created like a PC, which takes a great deal of time. Most of the time, as DM, I don't care what a monster's strength score is. I may care what its grapple is, and how much AC it has, but I'm not really looking to build the thing from the ground up as a PC, where it has base attack, strength bonuses, etc.
One of the few things 4E did nice is to do away with all that. What you care about for monsters is their final numbers, not how they got there, and 4E just gave you final numbers.
Pathfinder should really adopt that method too, so the DM could for instance, generate a 10th level fighter in 2-5 minutes instead of 10-30 minutes.
The second issue is that 3E encounter building as a whole requires certain counters. For instance, at high level the monster must be able to beat flight and invisibility, if they can't, the monsters lose. At higher levels, you have incorporeality to beat, and if you include wraithstrike and shivering touch, monsters also need a massive touch AC. There are a great deal of things you have to take into consideration and miss one of them, and an encounter oculd be over before it even begins. And hell, miss a divination spell and your whole adventure could be over before it begins.
DMing 3.5 is hard.
The one thing we shouldn't do is put more pressure on the DM. The rules need to help the DM tell stories, not straitjacket him with red tape.

Crusader of Logic |

4.0 monster generation is so horrible than Pathfinder should only adapt it if they are deliberately trying to kill their own sales via introducing the soul sucking, black hole generating failfest that is 4.0 monsters. Or you can just grab your favorite Final Fantasy game's bestiary and copy paste it in and do about the same thing.

Swordslinger |
4.0 monster generation is so horrible than Pathfinder should only adapt it if they are deliberately trying to kill their own sales via introducing the soul sucking, black hole generating failfest that is 4.0 monsters. Or you can just grab your favorite Final Fantasy game's bestiary and copy paste it in and do about the same thing.
Well, 4E monster generation leaves something to be desired, but it has one advantage. Namely that it's fast, and that is one element where 3.5 was a massive failfest. When preparation time is high, then the DM is forced to railroad, since he literally cannot adapt to new situations without hours of prep time.
That was where 3.5 at mid to high levels plain out failed. DMs just don't have time to choose feats, class levels and magic items for a single NPC that may not last longer than 1 combat round. In that case, the 4E monster/NPC generation system makes sense. Get a base set of attack bonuses, ACs, etc. then throw down a couple interesting abilities and just go with it.
3.5 had a lot of problems especially with NPCs, because "NPCs as PCs" never made sense. It meant that an NPC wizard gained huge advantages over PCs because they didn't have to worry about resource conservation at all. An NPC wizard lasted for a single battle and could thus blow all his spell slots on that one combat, where the PC wizard likely has to conserve his slots. And that really sucks.
The designers of 4E figured out that NPCs and PCs are playing different games and thus should be created differently, and that's definitely an idea that I think Pathfinder should adopt.

Crusader of Logic |

Presumably, that NPC is having to use spells for other stuff. Your example is only valid if your NPCs are humanoid shaped packages of experience that exist for the sole purpose of getting stabbed in the face. Provided that ya know, they have their own motivations and desires and are more than just a video game sprite you are wrong.
3.5 creation is fast once you get the hang of it, and can be easily slipped into gaps so that once you know what way the PCs are going you can write ahead of them and they'll never notice. 4.0 creation? Constantly having to reference exact text so you don't get tripped up by minor changes that snuck in but change the entire meaning of the paragraph means it takes longer, especially since you are trying to shape raw Arbitriarium into something solid.
I encounter the same problem with Pathfinder by the way. Something reads like it does in 3.5, eyes glaze over, then I find out it's actually different and facepalm. 3.5 stuff has distinctness, and thus a lack of confusion going for it.