Well, I tend to stay to core on such these sorts of conversations just to have a baseline everyone can touch, when I stay core though, I'm assuming that if the monsters are core only, then the players are too.
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the baseline AC of 40 being too low, could you rephrase it? I realise that 40 isn't hard to do but we agreed that after buffing that's about the lowest in the party, so I went with that as the bottom, figuring that the higher AC's are easy to expolate from there.
Hitting AC 40 half the time only requires +29 to hit. This is incredibly low at level 20. It's about typical at level 12.
In core only the only melee valid beyond level 5 is a CoDzilla. And they don't care, because they're CoDzillas. They still have spells. So it's pointless to discuss due to being a moot point.
I agree with the monsters being buffed, it can and does happen, but usually magic items use the lowest caster level possible, which is fine, but our wizard's tend to pop a greater dispel magic off the bat at anything, to clear those sorts of things off.
Dispel does work fairly well against it. However, that's just one creature. Forcing one of the best guys in the party to spend at least one round just evening the odds is huge with 3 rounds is an effective max combat length. Most likely he knocks off the Mage Armor and the Shield and might or might not get Barkskin, Haste, and Greater Magic Fang.
The maralith's entry isn't entirely correct either they forget to include the weapon focus feat in her attack block.
+16 BAB from HD, + 9 from Str, + 1 from weapon focus = + 26 to start If her magic weapons are going to be better than using her magic weapon ability (which only turns them into +1 weapons) so I'm assuming she is using + 5 long swords with other attributes, putting her up to + 31, buffing with say Aid, and Bull's Strength puts her up to + 34, haste bringing it up to + 35.
When did Weapon Focus come into it? If it was compared to the one I posted, that's a part of replacing junk feats with meaningful ones. Though I think you just forgot -1 for being Large. Mariliths get 1d4 magic weapons chosen presumably at random. In any case the Magic Weapon helps at least two of them, and she probably doesn't have plain +5s again due to randomness.
Not bad, but still not autohitting on an AC 50 for a tank (at level sixteen that's + 5 mithral full plate, + 5 heavy shield, + 5 Ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, and the fighter's armor training bonus (+4) and a dex bonus of + 6 (dex of 22) a belt of physical prowess + 4 still leaves about 20,000 gp for a weapon +3 of some sort). Buffing up the tank could easily add another 10~15 points to his AC just from there, depending on the buffs choosen, and I'm not including the dodge feat here either.
Ok, let's see here...
+5 mithril full plate = +13 AC, 35,500 gold.
+5 animated heavy steel shield because I'm assuming you want to be relevant = +7 AC, 49,170 gold.
+5 ring of protection = +5 AC, 50,000 gold.
+5 amulet of natural armor = +5 AC, 50,000 gold.
I'm being generous and not including the Dex +6 item in the AC calculations as it actually does other things.
That is 184,670 out of... what was it? 280k? So you've spent around 65% of your total wealth just to boost one defensive stat that isn't even your best defensive stat. In fact it is your worst. The proportions would be higher if I counted the gloves as an AC bonus. Then you're stuck with what you yourself call a +3 weapon at level 16, don't have a +6 str or con item, don't have any save boosters, don't have any utility items, don't have any special properties, are slow as hell... And this is ignoring the fact you somehow have a good enough stat array to throw a 16 base into what can generously be called a secondary stat in that it comes after both Str and Con. When you also need some Int for tripping (assuming you unnerf Improved Trip, and want a real tank) and some Wis so you don't end up becoming a liability after the right spell is applied. Then there's no buffs you can apply here really since just about all of them are either redundant (enhancement to gear, natural armor, or deflection AC) or only available in the form of self only spells which you obviously don't get as a Fighter. The one exception would be Polymorph, except for that PF change thing. And the Wilding Clasp thing. So you've capped out a little bit early in becoming a one trick pony of a bad trick. If you survive the next few levels, even that much won't matter.
In essence your character is just a theory build to show what can be done. It isn't actually practical at all. More to the point it's a turtle. You know, those things that aren't valid by sheer concept?
I'm not sure I disagree with you that AC isn't good enough, I'm just trying to make sure we are on the same page of the same book, sometimes it's hard to know what someone else is talking about across the internet.
I find your example to be quite telling.
Honestly, go look at Benny, Lenny and Cenny. That's what I see at level 16, from straight fighters. Those are the average in the area I'm at. Also if you are just going to ignore parts of the defense you might as well ignore the fact the maralith has multiple magical weapons.
As you said yourself AC 40 is low. Most tanks will have much more than that, in fact that tank I put up is booking an AC 50 and I bet, Yes I'll straight up bet that I could put a maralith on it's butt with the build that equipment comes from (benny's equipment by the way). The Maralith's attack of + 29 isn't good enough to hit on anything but a natural twenty against an AC 50.
The + 4 dex item was the two stat belt, and you don't have to use dancing anything to be relevant at any level especially with a shield. Now if I wanted a dancing shield I would go with a Dancing Tower shield for the 2 extra points to AC.
1 feat, 2 words: Shield Mastery.
No penalties to two weapon fighting if one weapon is a shield, and when hitting with the shield you use the shield bonus as an enhancement bonus to hit and to damage. That +5 bashing shield? That gets a +7 to hit + 7 to damage.
Actually the more I think of it, it's stupid to not go two weapon fighting with shield mastery. You will deal much more damage with a fighter using that than any two handed weapon any day of the weapon, and your AC is better for it too.
Actually the more I think of it, it's stupid to not go two weapon fighting with shield mastery. You will deal much more damage with a fighter using that than any two handed weapon any day of the weapon, and your AC is better for it too.
Why limit yourself to TWF only, though? Grab some of the THF chain, since there is nothing in RAW saying you can't use a heavy shield (medium weapon) in two hands or one. Sure, you have to take TWF as a prereq for all the feats in the Shield Mastery tree, but I don't see any reason you couldn't do either with a bashing heavy shield. Being able to doubledown on strength with PA and having base 1.5 strength to damage seems like it might do more for damage output than Weapon Swap would, at only base Strength mod. Is it a feat shortage? This seems like a compelling option otherwise.
*usual disclaimer goes here, I think you've memorized it by now*
Honestly, go look at Benny, Lenny and Cenny. That's what I see at level 16, from straight fighters. Those are the average in the area I'm at. Also if you are just going to ignore parts of the defense you might as well ignore the fact the maralith has multiple magical weapons.
Examples without context. Provide a link to your examples.
As you said yourself AC 40 is low. Most tanks will have much more than that, in fact that tank I put up is booking an AC 50 and I bet, Yes I'll straight up bet that I could put a maralith on it's butt with the build that equipment comes from (benny's equipment by the way). The Maralith's attack of + 29 isn't good enough to hit on anything but a natural twenty against an AC 50.
After having spent well over half your cash on it, thereby making yourself a non threatening turtle. Especially since you are using a one handed weapon since you are physically holding a shield due to the lack of an Animated property (not Dancing, that's something else), and are therefore automatically irrelevant. Also since you have no save boosters it doesn't matter if you're built on like 50 PB or whatever or not. The Marilith attacks anything that isn't your AC and negates you since you only have a single digit Reflex save and Will save and only slightly better Fortitude save (about mid teens, which is still inferior to even a CASTER'S Fortitude save).
So even the Unholy Aura has a pretty good chance to work on you. Then it can happily ignore you, though if for some reason it cared (perhaps because you were the only one left alive) it could easily make you waste a few rounds on a Project Image, or Blade Barrier, or Telekinesis.
The + 4 dex item was the two stat belt, and you don't have to use dancing anything to be relevant at any level especially with a shield. Now if I wanted a dancing shield I would go with a Dancing Tower shield for the 2 extra points to AC.
1 feat, 2 words: Shield Mastery.
This statement is false. Also Tower Shield = more turtling = more irrelevance.
No penalties to two weapon fighting if one weapon is a shield, and when hitting with the shield you use the shield bonus as an enhancement bonus to hit and to damage. That +5 bashing shield? That gets a +7 to hit + 7 to damage.
Cannot bash with a Tower Shield. This statement is false. Also, TWF sans bonus damage = automatic irrelevance.
Actually the more I think of it, it's stupid to not go two weapon fighting with shield mastery. You will deal much more damage with a fighter using that than any two handed weapon any day of the weapon, and your AC is better for it too.
If you were talking about a two handed fighter using the shield as a weapon you might be onto something. But as it is you are again incorrect. See above.
*usual disclaimer goes here, I think you've memorized it by now*
Honestly, go look at Benny, Lenny and Cenny. That's what I see at level 16, from straight fighters. Those are the average in the area I'm at. Also if you are just going to ignore parts of the defense you might as well ignore the fact the maralith has multiple magical weapons.Examples without context. Provide a link to your examples.
Here's Benny and Cenny. I think Cenny is a fairly interesting crossbow build, without any access to precision damage from skirmish, etc, all things considered. She misses out on a lot of possible control options, but there is not much which can be done about that on a ranged build.
I think Benny is weakened by not using the heavy shield in two hands, missing out on Power Attack, Overhand Chop, and other very nice things. Extra attacks which do less damage are not as nice as fewer attacks which do more damage. Grab base TWF, and don't progress further along the tree, and Benny will be able to survive to level 16. Stacking probability on multiple attacks will result in more swinginess in any TWF oriented build. Two coin tosses are 25% to both end up in your favor, even though they are 50% each.
Lenny was Turin the Mad's Fighter build.
Edit: Benny may well be the new PFRPG spiked chain tripper. Shield Bash does seem to be that good. If only he had reach...
Benny doesn't use a tower shield, I said IF I was going to use a dancing shield, not that I did. IF it's a keyword. ;P
Beyond that Treelynx put up the links for me, I'll trust you can follow them as well as if I had post them. I should have posted them, that was lazy on my behalf.
Treelynx, While I'm missing the Overhead chop etc. al. I would point out that Benny does more damage than lenny: 252 compared to 184. Against a Maralith Benny would lose 60 points from six attacks to damage reduction putting him down to 192 compared to Lenny losing 30 points off his three attacks which still puts his damage as the lesser at 154.
Again Benny isn't turtling here. IF he wanted to he could, but his shield is his weapon (and yes he could afford a second with his left over money if you insist than he can't weapon swap a heavy shield). He's full out attacking 6 times for 6d6+21 points of damage a hit after buffs, with a base attack routine of +40/+40/+38/+35/+33/+30. Also he has some battlefield control options with his dazzling display, deadly stroke, and the fact that anytime he hits with his shield he gets a free Bull Rush with no AoO, that can't be reversed.
People complain about the fighter not keeping the monsters off the squishies? Benny does: He pushes them around until they are where HE wants them.
But hey, prove to me Benny is 'turtling' and not being effective. Yes I spent most his money on improving his AC but that actually IMPROVES his value to the group. You can't hit him, he can hit you, he will hurt you, and the rest of the party doesn't have to worry about healing him, and can use his manuevering to their advantage.
*Standard Disclaimer is Standard*
Ok. I had a look. The first build has 12 Con on a front liner. At high levels, when stat boosters are available. To put this into perspective, the 3.5 Wizard has one more HP per HD than he does. The PF Wizard has a +2 advantage. Except it lacks the real defenses Wizards have, so basically you're a turtle with a shell defect. In other words, complete and utter failure at both defense and offense. After all, 22-32 a hit isn't high at all. Especially when you'll miss half the time, more often against opponents with any buffs whatsoever.
I was tempted to simply stop reading at this point, but I kept going and only managed to see various other false assumptions both related and unrelated.
The second build is only marginally better with a Con of 10 (someone remind me why these guys are using NPC arrays again)? It also does utterly trivial damage with moderate to low accuracy, which means the opponent doesn't even need a Wind Wall to laugh at her.
Both builds are negated by DR/anything they don't have.
The third build actually looks half decent, though I had a hard time reading it due to the length. This is mostly because it's the only one smart enough to use a two handed weapon. Where was the gear covered in there? Because I think it forgot the basics too like stat boosts and save boosts.
By contrast, here is a random NPC archer I am using. It's adapted to PC status easily enough, though you will have to lose the special arrows as that's too expensive to be maintainable. Other consumables too, though that isn't a problem since you could just work out a deal with a friendly caster to get GMW and Magic Vestment, and poison is far too costly to ever be worth using by a PC (though if you can negate the cost via say... Minor Creation, it becomes acceptable). It's also adapted to PF easily enough though I'm away from books, and it might lose something critical in the translation. Or maybe not.
This also serves as a good example of the kind of stuff mundanes need to be relevant at high levels. As a PC I'd recommend slipping a Cloistered Cleric dip in the place of that Fighter dip so the domain devotion can get more than a 1/day use. Nightsticks are nice too.
Also note this guy has more wealth than a normal NPC, but less than a PC. Being a bounty hunter for the strongest beings in the world has its perks.
Swift Hunter:
Fighter 1/Scout 5/Ranger 12:
HD: 17d8+51 + 1d10+3 (139 hp).
Init: +13.
Speed: 40 feet. (45 if Fast Movement isn't enhancement, 60 when Haste is on, 65 if Haste is on and Fast Movement isn't enhancement)
AC: 31 (+9 armor, +6 Dex, +6 shield), touch 24, flat-footed 31. (+4 if 10 foot move, +6 if 20 foot move, +7 if Law Devotion is on defense, +5 vs ranged attacks)
BAB/Grapple: +16/+19.
Attack: Bow +27 (+2 vs humans, +7 if Law Devotion is on attack) ranged (1d8+7 + 1d6 electricity/x3 + 2d6 human bane + 2d6 unholy + 8 vs arcanists, elves, or humans + 5d6+2 skirmish if move 10 or + 7d6+2 if move 20).
Full attack: Bow +27/+22/+17/+12 (+2 vs humans, +7 if Law Devotion is on attack) ranged (1d8+7 + 1d6 electricity/x3 + 2d6 human bane + 2d6 unholy + 8 vs arcanists, elves, or humans + 5d6+2 skirmish if move 10 or + 7d6+2 if move 20) or Greater Manyshot (+2 vs humans, +7 if Law Devotion is on attack) +19/+19/+19/+19 ranged (1d8+7 + 1d6 electricity/x3 + 2d6 human bane + 2d6 unholy + 8 vs arcanists, elves, or humans + 5d6+2 skirmish if move 10 or + 7d6+2 if move 20).
Space/reach: 5 feet/5 feet.
SA:
SQ: Distracting Attack, Spell Reflection.
Saves: 19/21/16. (+3 vs energy drain, inflict, death)
Stats: 16/22/16/10/16/10.
Skills: 9 skill points per scout level, 7 per ranger level, 3 per fighter level. Focus on stealth, perception, and movement such as Tumble first. Skill tricks are also nice. Detail here intentionally omitted.
Feats: Darkstalker, Endurance, Greater Manyshot, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Skirmish, Law Devotion, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Reconnoiter, Rapid Shot, Swift Hunter, Track, Travel Devotion.
1: Point Blank Shot.
H: Precise Shot.
3: Darkstalker.
6: Law Devotion.
9: Greater Manyshot.
12: Improved Skirmish.
15: Travel Devotion.
18: Quick Reconnoiter.
Fighter 1: Improved Initiative.
Scout 4: Swift Hunter.
Ranger 1: Track.
Ranger 2: Rapid Shot.
Ranger 3: Endurance.
Ranger 6: Manyshot.
Ranger 11: Improved Precise Shot.
Items:
+1 Force Seeking Hunting Composite (+3) Longbow. (50.7k)
20 +1 human bane unholy arrows. (12,801)
40 arrows. (2)
+2 Strength item. (4k)
+2 Dexterity item. (4k)
+2 Constitution item. (4k)
+2 Wisdom item. (4k)
+3 resistance item. (9k)
Efficient Quiver. (1.8k)
Ring of Entropic Deflection. (8k)
Boots of Speed and Skirmishing. (16.8k)
+1 ghost ward woodwalk quickness mithril chain shirt. (18.6k)
+1 ghost ward animated darkwood heavy shield. (16,257)
Scout's Headband. (3.4k)
Bracers of archery, lesser. (5k)
Oil of Greater Magic Weapon +4. (2.4k)
Oil of Magic Vestment +4 * 2. (4.8k)
Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection. (2.5k)
Lesser Crystal of Lifekeeping. (1k)
Lesser Crystal of Electrical Assault. (3k)
Crystal Mask of Mindarmor. (10k)
12 doses of giant wasp poison. (2,520)
Scroll of Forestfold. (375)
Scroll of Barkskin +4. (450)
Scroll of Listening Lorecall. (150)
6,045 gold.
His standard tactic is to either activate Travel Devotion as a Swift action, move up to his speed as part of that Swift action, then full attack or move (again) and manyshot. Alternately he could flip on Law Devotion with that Swift action (likely set to defense) then move and Manyshot. Second round Law Devotion comes on if it isn't already, and he continues making a nuisance of himself. He'll also likely be using Haste the entire time, via boots. Technically his boots are a custom item, but the 'skirmishing' bit just adds 2 damage. You can easily remove it, just using normal Haste boots and save 4.8k (3.2k * 1.5).
His standard AC array is 38/31/38 with 43/36/43 vs ranged since he's always moving enough to benefit from skirmish. This while not great is decent. This does include Haste. The statblock above does not. This assumes Law Devotion is not on. If it is it becomes 45/36/45 and 50/41/50 vs ranged. Now we're getting somewhere. He also gets a 50% miss chance vs ranged as long as he moves aka always, and if a ray or something misses (which is pretty damn often) he gets to reflect it back as an Immediate action via Spell Reflection. That's usable 7 times as he is written, of course after the first reflected attack they're likely to stop trying.
His attack sequence is +28/+28/+23/+18/+13 on a full attack, or +20/+20/+20/+20 on a Manyshot. This assumes Law Devotion is on defense mode. If it is on attack mode add 7 to all of the above (+35/+35/+30/+25/+20 or +27/+27/+27/+27). Add 2 more if using a Bane arrow against a human. This is not that great, but at least he gets Find the Gap, so as to actually end up with something better than a touch attack (touch attacks don't ignore things that convert armor, shields, or natural armor into touch AC but this does, so it even bypasses Ghost Ward). Given that this guy is stealth focused, he's probably attacking flat footed AC. At least on the first round, and probably the second. At which point he's either dead and/or has killed someone, so eh. It is high level combat after all.
His saves are +19/+21/+16 with a +3 vs energy drain, inflict, and death. He also has Evasion, but this is still admittedly mediocre. There's a good chance a caster will one round him. But this is not new.
His damage works out a lot better. He gets 1d8+7, 1d6 electricity, and 7d6+2 skirmish against everyone, every hit. If the target is an 'arcanist', an elf, or a human it instead becomes 1d8+15, 1d6 electricity, 7d6+2 skirmish and the skirmish damage applies through fortification armor and other immunities. The special arrows also add 2d6+2 vs humans and 2d6 vs good.
So in a nutshell...
Target is a good aligned human (special arrows used):
1d8+15 + 1d6 + 2d6+2 + 2d6 + 7d6+2 = 32-99 a hit, 5 attacks at +30/+30/+25/+20/+15 or +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 or 4 attacks at +22/+22/+22/+22 or +29/+29/+29/+29. Mundane actually gets to threaten casters a little. Just in case it matters he's technically firing +6 arrows, so if some human had DR/Epic he'd bypass it. Not that they do, I just found this funny.
Target is a non good human (special arrows used):
Exactly as above, except remove the 2-12 damage from Unholy, making it 30-87 a hit.
Target is a good non human but is an elf or arcanist (special arrows used):
Exactly as above, except remove the 4-14 from Bane which makes the damage per hit 28-85, and remove +2 to all attack rolls adjusting accordingly.
Target is a non good elf or arcanist:
Remove 6-26 from Unholy and Bane, making the damage per hit 26-73. Subtract 2 from all attack rolls.
Target is non good, not an arcanist, and not an elf or human:
Bane and Unholy do not apply. Neither does the +8 bonus from Favored Enemy. That just leaves 1d8+7 + 1d6 + 7d6+2 which is only 19-65. Not exactly awe inspiring. Especially when you consider that this guy only gets to ignore precision immunity against his favored enemies (pick 4), so anything else is laughing at him.
Speaking of pick 4, I noticed in my notes the last one is Dwarves. So he gets +6 against those (2 less than against arcanists, elves, and humans). I'm tired of typing though, so you can calculate that for yourself. And only being able to do something meaningful against a small fraction of overall creatures types is about par for the mundane course so... eh.
Because it bears repeating, and I want to ensure it gets noticed. To elaborate a bit more on that turtle with a defective shell thing, your AC is the lowest in the party. Even the Wizard does better, and has real defenses. In every other aspect except AC... I seen no mention of save boosters or stat boosters so you're looking at a base of 10/5/5 + 1/6/0 from stats, and that's it. Ever. Save array is 11/11/5. If the enemy cares enough to throw any Will save effect at him, he loses instantly. Even Reflex saves work surprisingly well on him due to his abysmal HP and bad saves. For that matter, even his so called strength can be easily exploited. Take that Marilith for example. 65% chance to get Strength damaged after every single hit. Have fun.
In a nutshell, he's a character that only works until highly intelligent creatures with many options remember that they are in fact highly intelligent, and can do something besides hit the thing with the other thing. Even a stock Nalfeshnee (3 levels lower, has only 2 out of 5 feats worth a damn) will tear him apart. Let's see...
Unholy Aura = 55% chance to take Strength damage every time you hit it.
Smite = 80% chance you can do absolutely nothing for 1d10 rounds. Yay free attacks.
Slow = 60% chance to neuter you for 12 rounds.
This thing doesn't even have a great special array (mostly due to the low save DCs on anything except Unholy Aura and Smite).
Ok, non core *throws out swift hunter, if you can throw out benny's stuff I can through out your non core*
If you want to see benny non-core we can go else where to have a pissing contest with that. Straight Pathfinder core here I've already said that. That's all I'm using.
Please note 15 point buy choosen becuase it is weak , it was an attempt to see IF a character could be made without using super stats and still be usable. IF you want me to restat him just tell me the points and I'll show you a complete build.
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DR is only going to take off 10 points in this case, and you aren't going to hit the AC 50 benny has until you prove you can. So HP doesn't matter. + 40 to hit is going to hit though and the damage is going to average 42 (6d6+ 21) per hit by the way. Just so you know.
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So um... how are you going to hit this guy with your Maralith? How is your Maralith going to survive being hit by him? Her damage reduction is only going to take a measly 10 points off that 42 per hit, of the six times he will hit.
You say it won't work... now prove it. Don't cop out on me now this is going very well for both of us.
Math it out becuase where I'm sitting 29 + d20 (Maralith's best attack roll) = doesn't hit AC 50 (benny's AC). 30 + d20 (benny's lowest attack roll) against AC 29 (Maralith's AC) is an auto hit with 6d6 + 21 damage per hit 42 - 10 DR = 32 damage x 6 hits = 192 damage for the Maralith.
Now the Nalfshee is more of a thread becuase he can teleport back and fireball Benny. The Maralith doesn't have this option. Benny can let her teleport back and just wait for her to come back. No reason to close to her, make her do the work. If she doesn't come back he still wins.
Benny has a 12 con with 16d10 (6 average) hit dice plus the flavored class bonus = 8 * 16 = 128 HP. I agree not great but not much more is needed you can't hit him with the Maralith .
*Standard disclaimer is Standard*
You throw out the Swift Hunter, that's cool. Just means even less in the way of viable mundanes. Difference is you're the one trying to prove mundanes are viable. I just presented that to correct your aim. So if you want to ruin your own chances, have at it.
And if you want to make characters more indicative of the standard, go with 32. That's what my example of a mundane had, and it's about the only number that works well for balance (anything lower just further boosts casters and screws everyone else, anything higher is silly).
You have yet to prove how you are getting those attack bonuses. Given the increments you have them scale by it looks like your math is wrong.
The Marilith has 33 AC because Unholy Aura is an at will, therefore it's always on. This doesn't matter too much. If she has any ability to buff this goes much higher (the one I actually used had 48 for this reason). This matters slightly more.
I have no idea how you got that the Nalfeshnee had Fireball, because it doesn't.
Regardless, both win against you very easily by using their special abilities, which is what Outsiders are designed for and favor. Your HP are 11 + 6.5 * 15 = 108.5. This is pathetically weak. I'm not sure what 'flavored class bonus' is supposed to be but since part of your math is wrong I'm going with that's wrong too. Standard Wizard has 14 Con and a +6 item. He gets 9 + 7.5 * 15 = 121.5. PF Wizard has a D6 for HD, so that's +2 at level 1, and +1 at every other level for another 17 points.
Your 'tank' has 108.5 HP. The freakin' Wizard has 138.5 HP. Which means your so called tank is about a quarter less durable than even the party mage, who has real defenses (you don't).
They attack your abysmal will save of +5, you die/become their slave/whatever. They attack your slightly less sucky +11 reflex save, you take a lot of D6s which actually halfway matters again given your abysmal health.
Hell, they attack your slightly less sucky fortitude save and screw you over that way.
Which is just proof you didn't read the first post, didn't read the second post where I specifically repeated it... and you aren't actually looking to make a point here. You're just playing deaf when proven wrong.
You say it won't work... now prove it. Don't cop out on me now this is going very well for both of us.Math it out becuase where I'm sitting 29 + d20 (Maralith's best attack roll) = doesn't hit AC 50 (benny's AC). 30 + d20 (benny's lowest attack roll) against AC 29 (Maralith's AC) is an auto hit with 6d6 + 21 damage per hit 42 - 10 DR = 32 damage x 6 hits = 192 damage for the Maralith.
Benny is prone as often as the Marilith cares to make him (At Will TK at 1060' to Trip), so subtract 4 from AC. Or, assume that you are grappled and pinned, at that range, for the impudence to think of meleeing a Marilith. Then she moves Benny every round with TK, until she grabs him with her tail, or, as I rolled it out, randomly my Marilith has a sword of the planes, a rod of the viper, and a flame tongue, but if she could have chosen the two weapons she rolled, she would have taken 2 +5 unholy vicious longswords. Plus 3 more longswords made out of nothing special, although I am sure the Marilith could have them differently. She also rolled a Ring of Blinking, A Monk's Belt (+5 AC). Reasonable also to load the Marilith up with any scrolls she might care to have.
I don't recall Benny having any capabilities to resist Grapple, and Trip certainly is quite probable, since he has no real bonus against these combat manuevers. See also project image and greater teleport, so that by the time Benny realizes he has been trying to melee an image, which she can generate at will, he's probably already been disarmed, and has walked or been thrown through several blade barriers.
I was thinking of more simple tactics (Project Image, he can't tell the difference between real demons and fake and she could have used it to 'summon' masses of mooks for the sake of humor).
Also, Blade Barrier. Put one around him. If he moves out of it, he has a 55% chance to fail the save and take 16-96 (56) and a 45% chance to pass and take 8-48 (28). 43.4 weighted average. If he doesn't move, she drops the next one right on his head and he has to move, getting damaged by both. It takes exactly three of these to kill him. Meanwhile she single moves as fast than he double moves due to that 20' thing. So unless he starts right next to her, he can never catch her. If he does start right next to her despite him being about as stealthy as the Hulk (and far less cool) and her having incredible perception skills... go Teleport. Then see above. Nothing fancy there at all. Just a Greater Demon toying with an unworthy opponent.
This is just the stock Marilith, who wasted 2 of 6 feats on junk. No gear at all. Not even the 1d4 magic swords she's entitled to, and the 'Standard coins, Double goods, Standard items' she is also entitled to.
Edit: A correction. 400 + (40 * 16) = 1,040 feet. Regardless it's well out of his effective range, even if he picks up a likely MW bow and tries to shoot her at -18.
1. PATHFINDER -- go read the beta. You get a bonus to either HP or Skill points from your favored class.
2. 25 point buy PATHFINDER, ok I'll post a rebuild of benny using 25 point buy pathfinder in his thread, it'll have to wait until I get home though, as I have work in a few minutes.
3. Lets establish our ground rules here: All builds must be of the same level, specific monsters as per the Monster Manual (feats maybe changed, monsters will use their treasure, in which case treasure must be declared), All builds will use 25 point buy Pathfinder Point buy system, using pathfinder feats table. Pathfinder Core will be used for character builds.
Benny's Attack bonus for a full attack was explained in his thread, I'll go over it again:
16 BAB (fighter 16)
5 Str bonus (after the effects of the belt are taken in)
7 Shield Enhancement bonus (as provided by Shield Mastery)
3 Fighter weapon training
2 Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Focus
+33
Two weapon fighting with shield thanks to shield mastery doesn't hurt:
+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18
Weapon Swap Feat subtracts 2 from each off handed attack:
+33/+31/+28/+26/+23/+21/+18
Buffs: (Haste, Heroism, Prayer) +6 to hit, + 1 damage, + 1 extra attack
+39/+39/+37/+34/+32/+29/+27/+24
Improved Vital Strike Drops the last two attacks from the list:
+39/+39/+37/+34/+32/+29
I seem to have lost a + 1 somewhere... I don't think I'll miss it though.
Also About Benny's damage:
A Heavy Spiked 'Bashing' Shield does 2d6 normally, Improved Vital strike means Benny gets two less attacks (his lowest two) but the base dice damage of his shield is tripled: 6d6
Benny has weapon specialization and greater weapons specialization and his weapon training all into heavy spiked shields:
+3 Weapon Training
+4 Specialization
+5 Strength bonus (to prime and off handed, he has double slice feat)
+7 Shield enhancement bonus (provided by shield mastery feat)
+1 buffs
+20
Total Damage per hit: 6d6+20
Again I seemed to have misplaced a point of damage. If I remember where I'll add it in.
*********************** new question **************************
What are these "real" defenses that the wizard has?
Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, and Displacement are all useless against the Nalfeshnee and Maralith, they both have true seeing.
Wall of Force is also useless, both demons have greater teleport.
Mage Armor, Shield, and Protection from Evil are weak sauce.
Polymorph has been nerf'ed ALOT in pathfinder, so it may bear more investigation.
Stoneskin doesn't provide enough DR.
Fire shield... um not useful in this fight,
Repulsion might be worthwhile.
Blink could still be good too.
The Nalfeshnee has Greater Dispel Magic at will... those spell defenses may have just fallen apart from that.
On the Nalfeshnee and the fireball, bonehead move my part, I looked at the Balrog for some reason. Even still Call Lightning is an at will, and the Smite is still there too. The maralith doesn't much in the way of offensive spell-like abilities, her best is blade barrier and that's pretty small potatoes really.
*Standard Disclaimer is Standard*
Ok then. Wizard gets more HP too. He's still two per HD ahead of you.
25 PB is automatically irrelevant. This isn't what I said either, so I'm just ignoring this segment entirely until you learn to read and pay attention to what the other person is saying.
You are correct about the illusions not working against them. However, a defense that only gets negated by powerful Outsiders and random stuff of other types is still vastly superior to one that gets negated by everything that cares enough to attack it, and everything that doesn't care to attack it because they instead go after your 11/11/5 save line which means not only does the standard Wizard have more HP than you by far, he has a better Fortitude save as well because he was smart enough to pack a Con booster, and a save booster which you did not on the grounds you thought AC was actually worthwhile. For the record he has a 5 base, 5 con, and up to 5 resistance without even trying giving him 4 points on you. He does the same with his Reflex, and his Will is 15 + Wis. No buffs at all up here, unlike you who are assuming someone's randomly throwing buffs on you you cannot provide for yourself because you can't afford Haste boots either.
Lastly, the Nalfeshnee's Call Lightning doesn't matter. It'd doing 10.5 or 5.25, and you have a 70% chance to pass since the DC is so low. It could technically do it anyways just by staying 220' away to beat you down about 7 HP at a time while you can do absolutely nothing to stop it since it moves faster than you to beat you via Cherry Tapping. This is not necessary.
The Blade Barrier though is a credible threat against you because your HP and saves are so abysmal that this will kill you in 3 rounds at a range of up to 260'. And there's nothing you can do about it, as any action you take is negated or countered. If you had a meaningful amount of HP and focused on your real defenses (saves also qualify for this, and you boost them all at once with a cloak so why not) you might be able to do something if you caught her. Which would take a while. Even without teleporting.
Edit: Forgot to mention that while Mage Armor and Shield are not very great spells, they do work great on things inherently buffable. Like monsters, who get all of their AC from Dex and natural armor, so all the other bonus type slots are empty. 50 gold for +8 AC (pushing Ms. Marilith from 33 to 41 very easily)? Yes please. Remember, she comes standard with UMD. And anyone can use potions.
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As it has been mentioned a few times, there's a general consensus that certain multiclass class builds with monk are overpowered; mainly due the WIS modifier to AC.
But couldn't this simply be fixed by limiting the WIS modifier to AC based on level; similiar to how Canny Defense works for Duellist? Naturally, you are probably best off making itonlyapply for multiclass characters, as to avoid nerfing pure monks while they are low level. On a slightly unrelated note; the same idea should also apply for abilties that are akin to this(Divine Grace).
Then the matter of making armour and shields more useful...
I agree with increased DR, without a doubt. I also like the idea of making criticals harder to confirm on individuals with heavy armour...and on that note, would also alter fortification a bit(or rather, use somebody's else rules on fortification to be entirely precise):
Fortification
Light - 25% protection vs criticals and related effects. +1
Can go on any armor, including non armor such as bracers of armor.Moderate - 50% protection. +3.
Can go on medium or heavier armor.Heavy - 75% protection. +5.
Can go on heavy or heavier armor.Epic - 100% protection. +7.
Can only go on armors heavier than heavy armor.
Regardless of whether you think Fortification is or isn't worth the price mark tag given, I think most here would agree with the idea that there should be no 100% fortification on breastplates, leather armour and let alone ''clothing''.
Another idea might be to improve Expertise for characters with shields; as long as this is done in such a fashion you don't end up with wizarads using a masterwork buckler to abuse this. Perhaps only have it work with tower shields. For instance, a character using a tower shield with expertise, could decrease his AB by two for an increase of +3(1.5 ratio). Perhaps even make it a 2.0 ratio; but I'm not too sure about that one.
Finally, I would like to remark that characters who want to keep their AC competitive at high levels; really should not be forced to use mithril armour and raise their dexterity score. If they want to trudge in heavy armour and be nigh invulnerable in melee combat but be in serious trouble as soon as they fall in a pit trap filled with water; so be it. Simply put; there should be armour that's beyond heavy. Think of something as the opposite of mithral. While it won't actually decrease the dexterity modifier, it certainly wont increase it. It probably would increase ACP and Arcane Spell Failure and keep some movement speed penalty, but it would increase the armour's base AC value(by +3/+4, for instance).
Fortification is magical. It doesn't care what mundane item you put it on. Now if you were arguing for a mundane version of fortification on heavier armors as an innate ability that stacked with the magical kind (otherwise you again encounter irrelevance over time) we could go somewhere with that.
Ok a few problems with the Telekinesis:
1. Tripping with it doesn't give me a will save, you still have to resolved the trip attack normally, using your caster level as your BAB with a bonus equal to your Int mod. That means the Maralith is + 20 (16 hit dice + 4 Int Mod.) to hit with that trip... yeah not happening, as Benny's AC is 50. Even if it does one round becuase of a Natural 20, he'll be back on his feet and moving again the next.
2. Grappling, The Maralith again has CMB for grappling of + 21 (if you include her size modifier in the Telekinesis if her size doesn't count on Telekinesis she's only + 20), to succeed she needs to be a DC 35 (15 + his BAB (16) + his Str (4)) to succeed on grappling Benny. Not a problem but If she wants to continue holding him it's going to cost her a standard action each round, leaving her with only a move action.
Grappling by herself, a Maralith is + 26, from the pathfinder beta (16 BAB, 1 size + 9 Str) Benny's Competing CMB is only 22. However he does have escape artist.
What does Benny need to get ungrappled? Well see below on his link:
Benny has a escape artist check of +33. His DC is whatever the maralith rolled.
That's after all his gold is spent, and at the bottom accounting for him using his potions before the fight.
The illusions would be a problem, maybe. But controlling the illusion to do anything other than what the Maralith is doing is, again a standard action to control. This gives Benny the ability to tell them apart. Which one is attacking and which one is moving? The one that is moving is real (If and After he realises one is an illusion), the one that is full attacking is fake.
**************** different topic warning **********************
Beyond all that, yes monsters can in fact attack Benny's weakness... however the same can be said of any character, the wizard will be hit with Rays of Enfeeblement to make his equipment too heavy for him, the Cleric will be targetted with mass damage Reflex save spells, the Theif will face oozes. The Fact remains that the monsters will not be straight up hitting Benny. Which is what AC is supposed to do, prevent straight up attack, and benny can still do what he is supposed to do -- make monsters not want to face him in a straight up fight. They will manuever, they will sneak, they will use spells, but they won't go toe to toe, which gives the party time to handle anything else. IF an enemy is foolish enough to go Toe to toe with Benny he'll do a fine job of dealing as much damage as any 2 handed fighter, while still needing less healing.
But the problem is powerful outsiders and the like are not the only things that are going to take out the wizard's "real" defenses. There are creatures at all CR's that have similar abilities to the outsiders:
Assassin Vine (CR 3) Blind Sight
Barghest (CR 4) Could just Charm Monster
Basilisk (CR 5) Could just Petrifying Gaze
Gauth (CR 6) has dispel Magic
Beholder (CR 13)
Belker (CR 6) attacks from the inside ignoring illusions with smoke claws
Bodak (CR 8) death gaze
Bulette (CR 7) Tremorsense
Carrion Crawler (CR 4) eight tentacles and a bite... it's going to hit
Darkmantle (CR 1) blindsight
Babau (CR 6) Dispel Magic at will
Succubus (CR 7) Charm Monster again
Vrock (CR 9) Spores, Screech
Destrachan (CR 8) Blindsight
Lemure (CR 1) Mindless
Dire Bat (CR 2) Blindsense
Drider (CR 7) 7th level casters, spell-like ability dispel magic
The Wizard's defenses depend on knowing what he'll face for the day, otherwise he'll 'turtle' with his spells and again be ineffective. Even if he does know, those defenses are not and never will be complete, as they may be dispelled or not effective. When the wizard is high enough level to constantly have these defenses going the foes he'll face will be have the powers and abilities to counter his defenses.
Except that those spells are coming from wands. Therefore they have the minimum possible DC, and by the time you can get them have long since lapsed past usefulness such that about the only way you're getting any mileage out of a save DC wand is to put so much raw power into it it doesn't matter if they pass the save. In other words, Maximized Twinned Admixtured Fireballs at level 6 courtesy of the friendly neighborhood Artificer.
Core baselines mean only casters are ever worth considering, other guys can never get the tools they need. 5d6 isn't relevant at level 5, even when you have a meaningful save DC. It's about a quarter a single creature in a standard encounter's HP if they fail the save, which is to say you just tickle them a bit. Not that you'd have a Fireball wand at level 5 without lots of craft cost reduction shenanigans.
Let's take a look at arcane wands found as treasure or lootable NPC equipment in a few published adventures, courtesy of Paizo.
"The Whispering Cairn" (AoW, Dungeon #124; 1st-3rd level): wand of unseen servant (16 charges), wand of shatter (7 charges), wand of ray of enfeeblement (17 charges); also, in the Diamond Lake backdrop article, there is a wand of burning hands (CL 3) (35 charges) listed for sale in one of the shops.
"There Is No Honor" (ST, Dungeon # 139; 1st-3rd level): wand of mage armor (11 charges), wand of ray of enfeeblement (29 charges), wand of mage armor (20 charges), wand of animate dead (5 charges), wand of charm person (35 charges).
Burnt Offerings (RotR, AP 1; 1st-4th level): wand of shocking grasp (28 charges), wand of shield (9 charges), wand of magic missile (CL 1) (38 charges).
Edge of Anarchy (CotCT, AP 7; 1st-4th level): wand of acid splash (28 charges), wand of magic missile (CL 1) (23 charges), wand of daze monster (10 charges), wand of ghoul touch (44 charges).
Even before the party arcanist can take Craft Wands, there are often enough wands to make this an option. Once the arcanist can Craft Wands (5th or 6th level), a wand of Melf's acid arrow or wand of scorching ray makes a dandy ranged attack choice for only 2,250 gp and 180 XP (2d4 acid damage + 2d4 acid damage next round or 4d6 fire damage, both ranged touch and no save), well within the 9,000 gp to 13,000 gp Wealth By Level guidelines. Even if the crafter charges the cleric 5 gp per XP, per the NPC spellcasting guidelines on PHB pg. 132, the cleric gets the wand at 3,150 gp (a 30% reduction from market price) and the arcanist gets 900 gp to spend on other stuff.
As far as saves go, even a save DC of 11 for a 1st level spell will be missed 30-40% when targeting weak saves for many CR 1-6 encounters.
One final comment: using artificer as the standard of comparison for spellcasting classes is like using warblade as the standard of comparison for melee classes. It does nothing but define the upper limit of D&D 3.5 power levels. The 3.5 core is the baseline, not the supplements.
AC progression does break down somewhat at high level play (unless you start using polymorph to gain +11 natural armor as a green hag) because of the hard limit on applicable bonuses, as I noted above, and the lack of any such limit on monster attack bonuses (especially since the monster advancement rules have some problems). However, except for dragons and a few other outliers, stock/published CR 20-24 monsters pretty much all have a +30-40 attack bonus, so having "only" an AC of 45 or so will not seriously penalize characters vs. most encounters in groups that take this baseline into account.False. CR 20 is 6 dragons, 2 outsiders, and Big T (who has the best melee stats of all since it is all he can ever do, outsiders end up with only mediocre mundane offensive stats because they get many special abilities and therefore fewer HD per CR). Also note those two outsiders are stated to prefer tactics basically summarized as screw the party with save or dies and/or save or sucks until crippled, then make the deaths official with melee. All of the above also has much better than those low numbers. CR 21-24 illustrates this even better since the only way you're ever fighting anything else at CR 20-24 is via monster advancement aka much better melee stats, or lower level stuff with class levels which both isn't worth its CR, and is still better than a piddly little +40.
Again, let's take a look at some CR 20 encounters from Paizo adventures.
"Kings of the Rift" (AoW, Dungeon # 133): Necrozyte +32/+30 x 2/+30 x 2/+30 (haste can add +1 all attacks and true strike can add +20 to one), Gazzilfek (bard) +19 (+23 when small), The Mother Worm +30 x 8/+25.
"Into the Wormcrawl Fissure" (AoW, Dungeon #134): Zulshyn (spellcaster) +21, Wormdrake +31/+29 x 2/+29.
"Dawn of a New Age" (AoW, Dungeon #135): Hemriss (rogue) +19 (cat's grace grants a +2 and true strike grants a +20 on one attack), Broodfiend +32 x 2/+30 x 2.
"Enemies of My Enemy" (ST, Dungeon #149): Lertyck Trumbel +23/+17 x 4, Celeste +29 (bull's strength adds +2 and divine favor adds +3, Inspire Courage adds +1).
"Prince of Demons" (ST, Dungeon #150): General Ghorvash +31/+29 x 2/+29/+29, Nulonga (spellcaster) +13, Ancient Worm +35.
The baseline numbers used by Paizo in their published adventures don't support your argument. There are a few rare encounters that use higher attack bonuses (Maralee in "Dawn of a New Age" is a prime example), but this is not the norm.
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Fortification is magical. It doesn't care what mundane item you put it on. Now if you were arguing for a mundane version of fortification on heavier armors as an innate ability that stacked with the magical kind (otherwise you again encounter irrelevance over time) we could go somewhere with that.
Then I think the Fortification magical property should be rewritten. Instead of producing a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively, it should merely strengthen the already existing protection that an armour offers for the vitals.
4d6 damage, that is subject to energy immunities at 5-6th level kinda blows. Totally blows, if we compare that to monsters, and not to humanoid NPCs. By that point, challenging fights=multiple trolls or weaker hydras, or dire lions, or megaraptors, or babaus, or small squads of, say ogres or ghasts. 4d6, on awerage, takes about 20%-25% HP total from anyone of the first group (particularly brutal examples lose lesser percentage or have fast healing). So, it can have significant effect only if you have a few free rounds to ping them, which some of these monsters won't give you, or if the party gang-bangs one of the monsters from the first group, i.e, the encounter is supposed to be a cakewalk. (By the way, in STAP adventure for 5th level, which I read now, the first monster encountered has 115 hp, and the second has 77 with sufficient fast healing to negate 4d6 damage; both has a good chance to start the encounter by meleeing the party, both are super-nasty in melee, both are only EL 6).
As about the chances to hit - please, exclude creatures, to which melee is secondary, to see the true picture. Broodfiends, for example, have no reason to melee anyone who is not clearly vulnerable to melee, as they have a lot of non-melee abilities. Also, even these creatures tend to have way higher attack bonus than you think. Jusy read the statblocks more carefully - looking at the same broodfiend reveals, that their actual to hit is +42/+40, but they use PA for 10 by default (which they don't even need that much, as the main bite of their melee routine is Intelligence drain). True melee brutes in AoWAP have attack bonuses of +34 and more with five-seven attacks at CR 16-17.
The fact remains if it is a straight up melee brute it will stomp all over him. Even Aelryinth makes better turtles, and the fact I'm complimenting someone I despise should be telling you something. If it's not a straight up melee brute, it has better things to do. So all that AC blocks the weakest thing an enemy can do. And since you overspecialized, you're wide open to the more meaningful things it can do.
Nalfeshnee vs party: Slow everyone (your guy fails, maybe one other person fails, everyone else passes).
Or how about something with another AoE will effect? Even a lowly Hezrou hits with a Chaos Hammer and slows him (and if he's not Lawful, pick another flavor of alignment smite then see above).
How about Mass Charm? Confusion? They don't even have to specifically aim at him. They just need to fire an initial screw you. He practically auto fails, everyone else is fine.
Edit: I used Artificers as an example of a class that can make effective use of wands due to their various abilities to apply metamagics to them. Your post gives a Ray of Enfeeblement (decent) and that's about it.
Blade Barrier DC 23 vs Benny's Reflex Save + 20 Evasion (3+ = no damage)
Project Image DC 23 vs Benny's Will Save + 14 (40% chance of Benny failing even then this isn't going to kill or even hurt Benny)
Telekinesis DC 22 (violent thrust) vs Benny's will save + 14 35% chance of success, and then Maralith's attack roll vs Benny's AC 50 which isn't going to connect.
Benny can wait the Maralith out. She can't trip him, she can't hit him, and the projected image won't do anything other than distract probably not long even at that. IF she grapples (+26 to grapple vs DC 35) Benny will escape (+33 Vs DC maralith's grapple check (d20 + 26)), and they can start again.
Benny is going to do more damage than the two handed weapon fighter.
Benny's Saves come out:
Fort + 22
Reflex + 20 Evasion
Will + 14
His HP: 200
Escape Artist: + 33
AC: 52
Even after the potions wear out Benny is sitting on the following:
Fort + 20
Reflex + 17 Evasion
Will + 12
Escape Artist: + 31
AC: 51
The AC does it's job. The Maralith isn't going to hurt him. Yes Benny isn't going to hit at ranged but then the Maralith isn't going to either.
Vrocks, Retrievers, are all melee, Fort and Reflex Saves abilities which are Benny's best
Hezrou, Glabrezu, and Nalfeshnee's Spell Like abilities don't have a good chance to connect (DC range 18~ 22 even against benny's weak Will means he saves on a 4~8+) and they still can't hit benny. Even the slow effect and Smite aren't going to let them connect on his AC.
You just can't hurt the guy with these monsters. You can slow him, you can prevent him from connecting, but you can't kill him.
********************************* new area ********************
Any of those effects that grab Benny will probably get a wizard too, the wizard may have longer range, but his pitiful Fort saves are low enough to need specific shoring up, and if the whatever defeats the wizards "real" defenses (not that hard to do) the wizard is toast. The wizard can move and shoot with standard action spells but he can't get far enough to prevent any of these monsters from closing on him. Which means that he needs some way to stop them from killing him. His AC isn't going to do it, and I've yet to see some defense that will keep him alive.
First you'll need to explain how you went from 11/11/5 saves to ??/20/14 saves with Evasion considering you can't afford those things because you fell into the AC trap. He's also somehow getting a lot more HP now (cannot afford Con boosters) and snuck in another 2 AC somehow (even if possible, it cannot be afforded).
By the way, saves are one of those real defenses. The Wizard has 15 to his bad saves without even trying. More like 20-25 if he tries a bit. Around 30 if he really applies himself. No net action cost (that's all stuff that either lasts 24 hours, or lasts about 5 hours and can be recast a few times). In the current group the lowest Fortitude save in the party is 19. But 23 vs poison and 24 vs inflict, energy drain, and death means it's actually much higher against everything except Disintegrate (50% miss, always on, only bypassed by Seeking which is a weapon property and thus invalid to spells) and the odd Baleful Polymorph. I can live with that. Next highest is 21. Because this group did not neglect the real defenses, they auto pass every save they have to make against these guys. Maybe they need a 3 in the edge cases. That's about it.
At this point though I think you're just going to keep moving the goal posts meaning you lose the argument and further discussion is pointless.
Go look at Go look at Benny Completed , that's why the link was included Mister I'm-so-smug.
I just spent Benny's coin. That's why I said let me actually build Benny. He had 315,000 gp at 16th level, and I used the full 25 point buy to get his stats in respectible ranges.
I've spelt out how Benny does it: Now do the same for your wizard.
I'm not moving the goal posts. I told you exactly what I was going to do: Finish building Benny. I did that.
The Benny in the first thread was not a complete build, it was just a damage output view, something to see what damage a fighter that went for shields could do compared to one that went for a two handed weapon.
The benny in the Benny Complete thread is an actual full out build for a 16th level character with real stats, equipment, skills, feats, etc.
maybe should have waited for that post like I suggested eh?
But heck you wanted to run along so more power to you ;D
Ok, I'm done being beligerent, just wanted to return the favor there.
What it comes down to is this is benny's complete build. A full character not just some starting concept to see what could be done damagewise.
Again, with real equipment and real stats Benny shows he has some legs.
I did post that link in my above post... you must have missed it, funny I told you I was going to do that.
I do agree that saves are a real defense and a good one... but they don't prevent those demons from just smacking the wizard around. If the wizard doesn't have some sort of physical defense the demons are going to do what they enjoy best -- slowly ripping his corporeal form apart and eating the juicy bits.
What Defenses does the wizard have to prevent this?
Build made after this discussion started and thus invalid. See moving the goal posts.
Funny thing though. I actually quoted wrong. It's 260k, not 280k. That was unintentional, but it still amuses me since it's costing 236k just for you to cover part of the basics, still no utility whatsoever. Or the rest of the staples.
Oh by the way, Blinking is one of those things that laughs at melees. Even though the Outsiders bypass many of the real defenses, they don't bypass that. Greater Blinking is even better, and easily made to be always on.
At this point though I'm done taking you seriously because you do not know how to present an argument. [Your] Case dismissed.
Not at all I said at the start I needed to finish the build, that I would do so, and I would post a link... all of which I did as stated.
After all it's not a true comparision if I don't even have a real character down. That's why I also asked about the Maralith specifically.
What afraid you can't get Benny now that he's an actual build instead of a quickly jotted down concept? I didn't change any of Benny's base equipment... I just spent what was left of what he had and assigned his skill points. I have to say if the maralith gets everything then Benny should too.
What would the Maralith do against Benny now. Seriously I know there must be gaps in his defenses, but I'm too close to the build having made it. Waiting for the buffs to run out would be a good starting place... she would have a better chance when he loses the bonuses those give him.
******************** back to the wizard ********************
Beyond that, what else does the wizard have? How is he going to keep from being eaten?
Changing names is funny.
Now the original topic here was characters with high AC don't wear armor. This was proven invalid because 'high' AC or not, you still get auto hit by anything that cares about melee, and attacked in other ways by things that don't. You just lose around 70% of your HP instead of 90% every round. Which sounds great until you realize you still die unless you either win in one round, or make the Cleric waste every action casting Heal on you.
Does anyone else have anything to say regarding this subject, or can we call this thread a wrap?
Using a level 16 encounter Hit Benny. AC 52.
Doesn't matter what the Marilith does. Your guy can do nothing unless right next to her. He can never get right next to her. Meanwhile she can do something from far away. Doesn't matter how good that something is. Even if it's just 1 damage he ignores 95% of the time, she still automatically wins. Cherry tapping, anyone?
Blink alone doubles the Wizard's HP. As proven, the Wizard is only 2 or 3 HP per HD behind... which is to say 34 or 51. That is considerably less than double. That single real defense makes him more tanky. He's also not getting full attacked because he can move more than 5' and do something meaningful, and doesn't need to be right in front of the enemy to hurt them. Not to mention auto pass Tumble checks to not get AoOed. So that's one swing a round that has a maximum 47.5% chance to connect. Lower if the Wizard gives a rat's ass about his AC. Compare to taking 4-11 attacks a round every round.
With that said, there aren't really any melee brutes at level 16. They're all various special ability creatures, which means they 'hit' him. Or maybe they don't, but his AC is irrelevant because it isn't being attacked. So the only way to get one is via advancement rules.
Here's a very uncreative and bad example. A 44 HD Elder Earth Elemental (4 HD = 1 CR * 5 increases = 20 extra HD).
He gets 2 +27 slams doing 2d10+11 before advancement, and earth mastery. You can't fly, so really it's 2 +28 slams doing 2d10+12 each.
20 HD adds 15 BAB. 2 +43 slams doing 2d10+12. It also adds 6 stat points (let's say 5 str, 1 con). 38 Str now.
2 +46 slams doing 2d10+15. It also gets a half dozen feats and some other stuff. 17-35/17-35 = 34-70 (52). It's a very soft melee brute (thus, a bad example) yet still quite capable of beating the crap out of this guy. Also has a few buckets of HP, and DR/you don't have it.
A more amusing example would be a 56 HD specimen of this as another creature chosen at random to serve as a melee brute. You can do that math yourself, I'm just doing this for humor now.
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Doesn't matter what the Marilith does. Your guy can do nothing unless right next to her. He can never get right next to her. Meanwhile she can do something from far away. Doesn't matter how good that something is. Even if it's just 1 damage he ignores 95% of the time, she still automatically wins. Cherry tapping, anyone?
He does not have to get right next to her, he just has to occupy her attention while the rest of the party kills her.
D&D is not a game of one-on-one gladiatorial combat.
It is a game of fire team-to-squad level combat.
Any individual build can always be defeated by one or more particular encounters.
Any analysis of game balance based on one-on-one matchups will always find the game to be fatally flawed with no way to "fix" it.
The wizard only gets a 20% miss chance against the maralith, she has true seeing as per the blink spell the 50% gets nerfed down to 20%. The wizard also suffers the same miss chance against the Maralith due again to his own blink spell, unless he has a ghost touch weapon. However Benny also quaffed a potion of Blink, giving him the same miss chances also.
The maralith could buy those scrolls, she could also buy mundane mithral full plate if she wanted too, at a cost of about 15,000 gp, now I'm not saying she would, but she could, that would give her a total bonus of + 6 to her AC from armor, this wouldn't help her touch AC but then that stinks across the anyways. The potions are definitely the better deal for her.
Actually to a point CoL is right, I offered 1 on 1 with Benny to the Maralith. In well over several minutes she might be able to luck out and cherry tap him to death, if he can't close and hit her. However she's going to be spending all her time running and blade barriering which has a range of 260 ft for her, she can teleport 255 ft back, blade barrier for 3 rounds then move blade barrier again, before teleporting again.
This is provide she has infinite space to move through, otherwise she's stuck in the room she has, which could affect the outcome of the battle. However this I agree would moving the goal post, the area was left undefined, so infinite open space could easily be the case.
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An elder Earth elemental only has 24 HD, yes he could advance to 48... but with scaling CR putting him up to 24 CR. 36 HD (27 BAB)would put him at about even, str of 33 (which doesn't stat it improves) gives it a + 11, and earth mastery gives the brute a + 1 to hit - 2 from size = + 43 needs a nine or better to hit Benny. Dealling 2d10+12 damage twice. He is inside Benny's range however leaving him open to Benny's charge, and Benny is blinking too. After the first round the element has to decide if he's going to actually move or full attack. He could five foot step, but Benny can too, if he moves he'll provoke an AoO, and if Benny has movement left, he can bull rush with that. If the elmental doesn't move Benny will start getting his full attacks in the next turn
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Can I see this mystery wizard statted out? It's kind of hard to just take your word for it that he has that much HP and what not. You say he has better defenses but I'm not convinced that he does in core.
Doesn't matter what the Marilith does. Your guy can do nothing unless right next to her. He can never get right next to her. Meanwhile she can do something from far away. Doesn't matter how good that something is. Even if it's just 1 damage he ignores 95% of the time, she still automatically wins. Cherry tapping, anyone?He does not have to get right next to her, he just has to occupy her attention while the rest of the party kills her.
D&D is not a game of one-on-one gladiatorial combat.
It is a game of fire team-to-squad level combat.Any individual build can always be defeated by one or more particular encounters.
Any analysis of game balance based on one-on-one matchups will always find the game to be fatally flawed with no way to "fix" it.
He fails at this, because the Marilith has much bigger threats to concern herself with (everyone else) while still disregarding the beatstick. There is absolutely no reason for any intelligent foe (not just this one) to ever pay attention to this guy unless he is the only one there. So basically he's just there looking busy.
I'm disregarding this Benny guy too. Mostly because he's still using illegal items.
Blink
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
[
He does not have to get right next to her, he just has to occupy her attention while the rest of the party kills her.
Please enlighten me, how he can do so, if he can't catch her (as an aside, he exceeds standard WBL, and I don't quite understand how this character manages to do TWF with just a single weapon). With her superior reach and movement, she is very much able to whack other party members, while denying him full attack. Well, maybe she'll take an attack of opportunity or two in the process, but with his kind of attacks, that's no big deal.
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He fails at this, because the Marilith has much bigger threats to concern herself with (everyone else) while still disregarding the beatstick. There is absolutely no reason for any intelligent foe (not just this one) to ever pay attention to this guy unless he is the only one there. So basically he's just there looking busy.
So the wizard cannot just d-door him next to the marilith and let him beatstick it to death?
Again, D&D is a fire team to squad level game.
Every party member does not have to be 100% capable of dealing with every encounter.
Any encounter can produce disproportionate results.
It is analysis on that basis that is fundamentally flawed, not the system.
Elder Earth Elementals are CR 11, 24 HD. Monster advancement gives it +1 CR per 4 HD. Thus, 44 HD = CR 16. You then get 1 stat per 4 levels or HD. The rest is quite correct, and again is a deliberately bad example. The 56 HD Assassin Vine is a lot more amusing. Just off the top of my head, that's a BAB increase of 39, a Strength increase of 24 (via size gains), then 13 more stat points from HD gains. Let's say it uses 6 to negate the 3 size increases, 6 in strength, then throws the last on wisdom to get some sort of benefit.
Cool. So now instead of having an attack of 7 (5 Strength, 3 BAB, -1 size) and doing 1d6+7 damage (5 Strength * 1.5) it has an attack of 53 (20 Strength, 42 BAB, -8 Size) and a damage of 3d6+30 (20 Strength * 1.5). 33-48 (40.5) is not that impressive, but then consider it's Colossal (and has been since CR 11), it gets to make a CL 56th Entangle around itself every round (Reflex DC 39) as a free action and oh yeah, first time it hits it forces what sort of grapple check you get for having a BAB of 42, Colossal size, and 50 Strength. Which means a grapple modifier of +78 in 3.5, and if PF is following its usual pattern you'll have an even harder time resisting it there. Once grabbed while still well away from the creature itself (perhaps even as far as 160' away) it automatically does that 40.5 every round.
Told ya this was a funny example.
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Please enlighten me, how he can do so, if he can't catch her (as an aside, he exceeds standard WBL, and I don't quite understand how this character manages to do TWF with just a single weapon). With her superior reach and movement, she is very much able to whack other party members, while denying him full attack. Well, maybe she'll take an attack of opportunity or two in the process, but with his kind of attacks, that's no big deal.
See previous, the wizard d-doors him up.
Or any of a variety of other methods of movement or transportation facilitated by another party member.Or, despite being an optimized TWF, the player "remembers" that his chatracter still has weapon proficiency with a longbow, the cleric and wizard pop a GMW on some arrows and align weapon on the bow, and he simply shoots the marilith to death.
Fire team to squad, not one-on-one.
Any time you think you have proven the game system is broken because a specific tactic by one chracter fails against a specific monster repeat that mantra until you remember that the system is not fatally flawed and unrecoverable, or that situations like that are anything more than assorted variations.
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The Wizard has better things to do with his action than put the weakest party member in position while putting himself (as one of the MVPs) in danger. (Dimension Door means he has to end his turn right next to it)
No, I am stating that a wizard can "kill" a marilith by using one low level spell to place a beatstick in killing position, rather than using one or more higher level spells that require SR checks, saves, or rolling sufficient damage.
I am stating that the casters should be devoting their time to killing enemies in the quickest and most efficient manner possible, rather than trying to "prove" the system is broken by doing everything themselves.
Using a level 16 encounter Hit Benny. AC 52.
Tilagos Bulette from AoWAP. EL 16. Four attacks at +36 to hit, 4d6+6. +37 and crit 19-20, if DM decides to optimize this a tiny little bit, by shifting feats from an inferior attack form. Gargantuan, has reach, if I understand correctly, can deliver all of these attacks while moving (jumping), and has usual bulette tricks. 364 hp.
Roc King from the same source. EL 16. Only +35 to hit and 3d6+16 damage. However, it can hover or flyby attack with 30-ft. reach, has Snatch, and is Colossal. Benny will probably have some time to pray, before the birdie hits him and owns him with +59 grapple modifier. Unless he has friendly casters nearby, praying is probably the only action that can influence his fate in any way after meeting this wonderbird. (Good luck whittling roc king's 486 hp with your missile weapons.)
Longbow on non archery character = not relevant. If the group is there, the Marilith is focusing on the real threats such as the Wizard and Cleric and again doesn't give a rat's ass about the beatstick.
Defeating encounters in the most efficient manner means casting spells that ****ing kill things. Not just negate both your own and the beatstick's turn to put yourself and the beatstick in front of the enemy. That's called wasting spells and more to the point, wasting actions (the most valuable resource you can ever have). The fact it then gets to happily full attack the Wizard who wasn't played to his Intelligence right after is an added bonus.
So you can keep arguing that the entire party should coddle the beatstick in much the same way a football player might work a deal out with the other team to let the mentally retarded player on their side make a play and score a touchdown so he can feel good about himself, but it still does not address the fact that when he has to pull his weight on his own he fails and is only there out of pity.
Also, he should be 50/50 against an even level threat. In other words, he should win half the time. He has absolutely no means of even being able to attempt to win. He is incapable of winning against anything that negates his one trick. Which is most stuff really. And the stuff that can't just does what he does, except better.
Conclusion: Beatstick = waste of space looking busy. The purpose of the current subject is to change that, not to spread lies about it. Do I have to start putting the disclaimer in every single post again?
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Longbow on non archery character = not relevant. If the group is there, the Marilith is focusing on the real threats such as the Wizard and Cleric and again doesn't give a rat's ass about the beatstick.
Why is it not relevant? Because it is not an optimized instant kill?
That is very flawed thinking.A "real" threat is what winds up causing damage, not what might cause damage. I saw that in action just last night in my home game when the 12th level party encountered a beholder. The blaster (psion) failed a Will save and started running. The mega-beatstick (ranger) failed a Will save and stood around cheering his new buddy the beholder. That left the flurry of minor attacks (monk) and random support spell (archivist) characters. The monk hit and the beholder was shaken. The archivist used dark secret and the beholder was stunned. The next round the monk hit 5 of 8 times with 2 crits, and the beholder had all of 12 hit points left. The beholder had a choice of hoping the monk would fail his saves, assuming it could hit four times against his buffed touch AC, or he could anti-magic the monk and try to bite him to death before the monk hit two more times while reduced to 4 attacks. Neither was a mathematically winning strategy, and the "weakest" character wound up being the biggest threat.
Ignoring a beatstick that can kill you with a single full attack sequence is always going to be suicidal, no matter how immune you think you are.
Defeating encounters in the most efficient manner means casting spells that ****ing kill things. Not just negate both your own and the beatstick's turn to put yourself and the beatstick in front of the enemy. That's called wasting spells and more to the point, wasting actions (the most valuable resource you can ever have). The fact it then gets to happily full attack the Wizard who wasn't played to his Intelligence right after is an added bonus.
Again that is flawed thinking.
Spells can do damage indirectly just as much as they can do damage directly. Using a spell to put a fighter whose full attack can kill a creature next to it is very much "casting a spell to kill things", just as casting haste to give all weapon users an extra attack is "casting a spell to kill things", casting greater magic weapon so the weapon users hit more and do more damage is "casting a spell to kill things", and using bardic music to inspire courage is "using the most valuable resource you can ever have to kill things".
See previous, the wizard d-doors him up.
Bad decision. Remember, unless the encounter is supposed to be a curbstomp battle, our snake girl is not alone against a 16-th level party (particularly if DM is mean and all demons start the battle by teleporting away and trying to summon some buddies, then buffing and teleporting back; or do that as a precast). Wizard, probably, should be busy disabling/SoDing ravenous demons, that's ganging up on him. Of course, the fighter help him to bust heads of disabled enemies. But, you know, first, they are already dead, so the wizard can probably take his time to explain exactly what gruesome fate awaits them, and still be able to finish everything by himself; second, CoDzilla can bust heads as well, except he is also a primary caster. I exaggerate slightly, but still, wizards have a whole lot of better options than dimdooring fighters.
Or any of a variety of other methods of movement or transportation facilitated by another party member.
See above.
Or, despite being an optimized TWF, the player "remembers" that his chatracter still has weapon proficiency with a longbow, the cleric and wizard pop a GMW on some arrows and align weapon on the bow, and he simply shoots the marilith to death.
Except his damage is barely scratching her. She stands way better chances of, for example, blade barriering him to death, probably while hitting other party members too. She also can just pretty much ignore him, until the more dangerous party members are dead.
Fire team to squad, not one-on-one.
Figher, in PFBeta is that incompetent soldier, who allows the enemy to notice squad's position. Also, while PFBeta makes the fighter class packgage mildly better, it nerfs melee in general, crushing most non-gish builds that actually worked in 3.5 (gishes, in general, fall further behind straight casters as well).
But if the wizard d-doors the beatstick into melee range of the enemy artillerist, she now has to waste an entire round or more re-positioning, hence abandoning any minions that were part of a formation (mariliths being the master tacticians they are), and this of course is AFTER the beatstick got off his full attack.
Could you give me an example (core only) of what the wizard/cleric/druid could do that would be better than disrupting the enemies formation AND engaging the leader in melee?
I am sure there will be a few things in the theoretical sense, I am genuinely curious as to why this is such an awful option.
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Bad decision. Remember, unless the encounter is supposed to be a curbstomp battle, our snake girl is not alone against a 16-th level party
Yes she is. A marilith is CR 17, making it quite suitable as a solo encounter for a 16th level party, as well as quite unsuitable for a one-on-one battle.
And yet again, any individual encounter can defeat any specific group due to the endless variables. Claiming the system is fatally flawed because of that is wrong.Wizard, probably, should be busy disabling/SoDing ravenous demons, that's ganging up on him.
Probably, but maybe not.
In addition to changing the battle you are also not specifying the changed conditions, so who knows what the wizard, or anyone else should be doing.second, CoDzilla can . . .
CoDzilla does not exist except in the presumption of total prescience.
As that does not exist, CoDzilla is even more of a cryptid.See above. [/QUITE]
I do.
And I now change everything and make assumptions of total prescience for all fighters and rogues and prove that spellcasters can never win.Except his damage is barely scratching her. She stands way better chances of, for example, blade barriering him to death, probably while hitting other party members too. She also can just pretty much ignore him, until the more dangerous party members are dead.1d8+4 with two hits a round will take a massive 20 rounds to kill the marilith - solo.
Since the fighter is not alone, the damage is quite relevant.
If she spends all of her actions using blade barrier on the fighter she is not using any to defeat any other party members, unless of course you are going to force the party to stay in "fireball formation" whether they want to or not.
Also, despite the pretense otherwise, occupying the attention of a creature is a very important use of an action.
That first guy is getting ignored because he has nothing better to do than attack. Aelryinth does have a proven history of stalking me onto now three separate forums, as many can attest to.
Why is it not relevant? Because it is not an optimized instant kill?
That is very flawed thinking.
Because it is doing 1d8 + very small number. Which means he doesn't even scratch the enemy unless someone torches a combat round aligning his weapon. Then he does scratch it a little, but only just. 1d8 + very small number is acceptable at level 3. Would you bring someone punching 13 levels below their weight along? No? Why or why not?
A "real" threat is what winds up causing damage, not what might cause damage. I saw that in action just last night in my home game when the 12th level party encountered a beholder. The blaster (psion) failed a Will save and started running. The mega-beatstick (ranger) failed a Will save and stood around cheering his new buddy the beholder. That left the flurry of minor attacks (monk) and random support spell (archivist) characters. The monk hit and the beholder was shaken. The archivist used dark secret and the beholder was stunned. The next round the monk hit 5 of 8 times with 2 crits, and the beholder had all of 12 hit points left. The beholder had a choice of hoping the monk would fail his saves, assuming it could hit four times against his buffed touch AC, or he could anti-magic the monk and try to bite him to death before the monk hit two more times while reduced to 4 attacks. Neither was a mathematically winning strategy, and the "weakest" character wound up being the biggest threat.
Archivists are one of the strongest classes in the game. Also, beholders fly magically. Your DM was coddling you. Your example is invalid.
Ignoring a beatstick that can kill you with a single full attack sequence is always going to be suicidal, no matter how immune you think you are.
Remind me again how hard it is to stay away from something that can never do anything meaningful to you unless it starts at most 5' out of its reach to you? Oh right, it's pretty damn easy. Especially when you're faster. You do not get to full attack, no build presented will kill an enemy in one full attack and again your example is invalid.
Again that is flawed thinking.
Spells can do damage...
I don't even know what you're talking about here. Who mentioned blasting? We're assuming successful characters right? Not ones wasting turn after turn? So why mention blasting?
But if the wizard d-doors the beatstick into melee range of the enemy artillerist, she now has to waste an entire round or more re-positioning, hence abandoning any minions that were part of a formation (mariliths being the master tacticians they are), and this of course is AFTER the beatstick got off his full attack.
Could you give me an example (core only) of what the wizard/cleric/druid could do that would be better than disrupting the enemies formation AND engaging the leader in melee?
I am sure there will be a few things in the theoretical sense, I am genuinely curious as to why this is such an awful option.
What's this about formation? Formation works great when it's low level human peons against low level human peons. In the D&D world, formation is called 'Fireball bait'. What that Marilith is actually doing is making minions swarm people with no mobility options to box them in, while she boxes others in with a Blade Barrier or whatever, then kills one at a time. Or something. Casters go first. If it's her alone against the beatstick alone, she beats him any number of ways via Cherry Tapping, and he cannot counter this.
What happens if the Wizard wastes his turn not auto winning the encounter is the Marilith full attacks him. If he has his real defenses up, he'll live. If not, he won't. Either way he just took a whole lot of damage for a whole lot of nothing. Even if he avoided every attack, he still wasted a round in a game where 3 round combats are considered long. Beatstick doesn't get a turn either. Read Dimension Door sometime. As others have eloquently pointed out, the Fighter is the incompetent soldier that blows your squad's cover.
CoDzilla is simply Cleric or Druid + Godzilla. By definition it is a Cleric or Druid that found out they have certain core options that really kick ass and tend to tear everything apart. Like the Druid? He gets a Fighter as a class feature. It's not even his only class feature. His beatstick is better though, because it's disposable, doesn't take the XP and loot, and probably smells better.