TreeLynx, you forgot to mention that while Dwarves don't lose a third their mobility for heavy armors they already lose a third their mobility regardless of armor choice.
But they don't actually lose anything. They are just naturally behind par for medium characters, like goblins are ahead of par for small creatures. Not that it does them any good, because 15% isn't enough.
Also, Light Armor Proficiency is a completely useless feat. See, if you are not proficient with armor you take its armor check penalty to some other stuff like attacks. I don't remember what that is exactly, but regardless that means any light armor that lacks an armor check penalty can be used just fine without the feat.Now let's review.
Padded Armor has no armor check penalty. It can be used just fine.
Leather Armor again has no armor check penalty. It can also be used just fine.
Studded Leather has an ACP of 1. However, MW quality lowers this by 1, therefore MW Studded Leather or better is perfectly available.
Chain Shirts have an ACP of 2. Mithril lowers this by 3, and this also is enough to consider it as MW.
And... that's it for the light armors.
So we have a 5 gold item, a 10 gold item, a... 165 gold item (or was it 175?), and a 1,100 gold item. Cool, you can take advantage of this from level 1 on.
Don't forget Twilight if you are an arcane caster.
So, Wear Light Armor is a non-issue, is a wasted feat, because nobody would use light armor that has a check penalty, with the exception of the currently considered light armor mithril breastplate. Fair enough, and I can't really argue with that point of logic.
That leaves Medium Armor beyond pointless (+1 AC translates at best to 5%), worst case meaningless, providing only cheap alternatives to the chain shirt and the mithril breastplate, barring making the mithril breastplate require Wear Medium Armor, and making you unable to move more than 25' per round. If you can't weld yourself to a mount, why bother.
Finally, Heavy Armor, which adds a whole 20% or 15% at it's best to the performance of Light Armor.
Medium and Heavy Armor don't do enough to justify the penalty for their use. Adding AC isn't going to fix this, so some other, novel effect needs to exist in order to make these armor types better. Especially poor Hide Armor, which is the biggest stinker of the bunch.
Yes, that was a potshot at all the people derailing the thread, as anyone who actually read it (specifically the last paragraph) would know. Which proves people aren't even reading my posts before responding to them. Very interesting.
It was pretty easy to tell without reading the last paragraph. The person you plagiarised was less belligerent than you are. Besides, you would not have written a thesis on women's literature as that would involve seeing things from another's perspective.
Plagiarized? Pfft. All I did was type 'I like pie thesis' into google and copy pasted some random blog for the lols.
Also, as those who do not set out to antagonize me can attest to I'm one of those best friend or worst enemy types. So if I'm belligerent towards you, that is your failing and not mine.
I could not analyze people as well as I do if I couldn't read them like a book. People in their 50s and 60s consult me for life advice, not the other way around.
In conclusion, assuming makes an ass out of you and me.
Edit: If you really wanted to, you could go with +1 Nimble Mithril Breastplate. Nimble raises max dex by 1 and lowers ACP by 2, or something like that. Which makes it an 8,200 gold item. Personally I wouldn't bother with Nimble. I'd just stick to Mithril. Add enough ranks of Craft: Armorsmithing to get a +8 modifier including Intelligence. MW tools, take 10. Now the mithril chain shirt is 366.666 (repeating) gold, and the mithril breastplate is 1,400 gold. Then the +1 Nimble route comes out to be 5,400 if you still want to do that.
Since it is clear that light armors, and effectively light armors, like the mithril breastplate, beat other options into the dirt, since no feat is actually required for their use, they provide only 15% less effective defense than the heaviest armor, and have no real penalties for use, how do we improve medium and heavy armors to make them interesting?
Now, I think the best suggestion is to strip the encumbrance effect from medium and heavy armors, so that a sufficiently strong character, who isn't otherwise encumbered by lugging around a non-magical golf bag full of weapons, can ignore the movement penalties. Keep ACP and max Dex, since if you are interested in being high Dexterity and wearing heavy armor, you can just be a Fighter and be done with it, and buy mithril. Have mithril simply reduce the weight, and increase max Dex bonus/lower ACP. Keep mithril armors classed as their armor type, so mithril full plate is still heavy armor, and a mithril breastplate is still medium armor. You can still use a mithril breastplate with no proficiency by making it +1 nimble, anyway, since it would have no ACP, but now make there be more than a 5% reason to do so.
Now, to improve Medium and Heavy Armors. Medium armors add half their AC bonus as DR/magic, rounding down. So, Hide armor no longer is completely useless for non-druids or druids, as it would be AC 3 DR 1/magic, and still dirt cheap, Scale Mail is AC 4 DR 2/magic, Chain Mail is AC 5 DR 2/magic, as would be a Breastplate. Adamantine adds it's DR to the armor's existing DR, so it would change medium armors to DR 4/-.
Heavy Armor I would honestly give a flat 10% miss chance, plus the DR of medium armor. So, Full Plate becomes 8 AC, 10% miss chance, DR 4/magic, or in adamantine, DR 7/-. Therefore, Heavy Armor is always worthwhile, even when the AC is only a net 15% probability gain over armor which can be worn with no proficiency at all. Banded now becomes quite interesting, with DR 3/magic, 10% miss chance, and only 35 lb weight, possibly making it the king of armors. Assuming banded is meant to model Lorica Segmentata, versus modelling poor drawings of Chain armors, that's okay by me. I can run pretty easily myself in well made steel Lorica Segmentata, I'm not really strong, and PFRPG characters are heroes, and much better than me.
I clearly recall reading that, and thought it was a great idea, but may not have gone far enough. Particularly with the very marginal difference in utility already between the Chain Shirt and the best medium armors.
DR/Magic is not worth the byte space it takes to write for reasons that should be readily apparent.
Summary: At levels above 7th, investing money into AC is a TRAP!
However, at lower levels, Heavy armor (and Medium for that matter) is a life saver. It's required to balance out the low number of HP front line fighters have compared to the damage critters can do.
At 1st level, wearing Full Plate, Heavy Shield and +1 Dex mod your AC will be 21
Here is the average Melee attack from levels 1-3 for critters in SRD and MM1-4:
CR. Melee_Attack
1... 1.77
2... 4.02
3... 5.22
4... 8.50
5... 9.46
At 1st level, they only hit you 10% of the time. Nice! At 2nd level it jumps to 20%... and by 5th level they have about a 50% chance to hit you.
At 10th level, your heavy prolly has a ring of Prot +2, amulet of NA +1, and has added +2 to his armor and shield so bump his AC to 28
CR. Melee_Attack
10... 19.10
11... 20.85
12... 22.86
13... 21.77
14... 23.21
15... 25.05
At 10th level and 28 AC, your average monster will hit you 65% of the time.
So let's say by 15th level you are rolling in money so you've upgraded to +2 ring prot, +3 amulet NA and +5 armor and shield. Your heavy AC is now 35 -- you should be safe and sound, eh?
CR. Melee_Attack
15... 25.05
16... 29.23
17... 23.94
18... 30.92
19... 33.00
20... 38.20
At CR 15, you are still getting pounded 55% of the time! And at CR 16 you are getting smacked 70% of the time... Ouch!
You would be much better off to spend 50,000 on a Cloak of Displacement, Major and always get a 50% miss chance.
DR/Magic is not worth the byte space it takes to write for reasons that should be readily apparent.
Eh, whatever. It's unenchanted, base armor. Easy come, easy go. Against Orcs and Trolls it allows the tank to use up slightly less healing resources. I recall a post suggesting that a simple +1 change armor to DR/Adamantine, which I also support. It fundementally boils down to net protection.
Armor protects, in theory. Adding any kind of DR, or a low 10% miss chance, provides an alternate protection method to adding fixed gains onto AC, where the net gain becomes minimal past CR10. DR/magic works against all the non-advanced Giants, and if you care about meleeing outsiders, you wear +1 of whatever flavor of armor you have the strength to wear without serious penalty. DR/magic, or DR/adamantine, or DR/- are useful even at lower numbers, especially when your AC would have you be hit anyway. Less damage = better protection.
I'm just trying to figure out a way to make armor worth keeping on once you are past CR10 creatures, who can hit you 65% of the time even with an optimized AC. Sure AC is important, but armor should be able to do more.
Edit: Thanks MegaPlex, I wasn't 100% on the numbers, but had ballparked it to that vicinity.
Summary: At levels above 7th, investing money into AC is a TRAP!
This is not my experience. IMO your 10th and 15th level AC totals were about 5 points too low each.
I find that if you actually try High AC (ie really hard for monsters to hit) is very easy (cheap) to achieve above about 3rd level and this remains very useful above 15th level (it gets a bit hard to know what is useful after that level)
I know I am in the minority here but I abhor the massive AC increase ability given to pathfinder fighters. The munchkin players in my group are licking their lips at the thought of the new fighters.
Armor protects, in theory. Adding any kind of DR, or a low 10% miss chance, provides an alternate protection method to adding fixed gains onto AC, where the net gain becomes minimal past CR10. DR/magic works against all the non-advanced Giants, and if you care about meleeing outsiders, you wear +1 of whatever flavor of armor you have the strength to wear without serious penalty. DR/magic, or DR/adamantine, or DR/- are useful even at lower numbers, especially when your AC would have you be hit anyway. Less damage = better protection.
Which is why if you wear heavy armor, then go all the way with adamantine for the DR 3/-. With anything else at high level, armor will likely be less effective than mirror image and/or displacement when facing really tough opponents. However, heavy armor can provide a character without much Dex (such as combat-clerics; who need good Str, Con, Wis, and Cha) enough of an AC to be useful against other, more typical, encounters or minions (and with DR, be even more effective protection than light armor).
Either light armor or heavy armor can be effective; which is more effective depends more on how it's used and the specific circumstances of the encounter. Just like party composition, spell selection, etc., there is no absolute "best" choice for all situations.
I know I am in the minority here but I abhor the massive AC increase ability given to pathfinder fighters. The munchkin players in my group are licking their lips at the thought of the new fighters.
Going by the core 3.5 rules with a standard PC race, the best armored AC attainable (without alter self, polymorph, etc. to gain natural armor or class features like the dwarven defender's AC bonus) is 10 + 13 armor (+5 mithral full plate) + 3 Dex + 7 shield (+5 heavy shield) + 5 natural armor (amulet of natural armor +5 or barkskin) + 5 deflection (ring of protection +5 or shield of faith) + 2 insight (foresight) + 1 dodge (haste) + 5 untyped (+5 defending weapon) = 51, unless I'm missing some spell or magic item. Considering that CR 20-24 dragons have a normal (un-enhanced) attack bonus of +36 (old red dragon) to +48 (several CR 24) and the Tarrasque has an attack bonus of +57, you reach a point where the really tough opponents can hit you with almost every initial attack, no matter what armor/AC boosters you wear (that much Crusader of Logic did get right, even if he did try to argue that the edge case was the norm).
The AC bonus the Pathfinder fighter gains just gives the benefit of the defending weapon without having to invest in the +1 additional weapon bonus.
Full plate = 1,500 gold. You aren't getting it at level 1. Or 2. 3 is possible, but unlikely. 4 is most probable.
Also, Cloak of Major Displacement requires you to torch a round to turn on, and only lasts 15 rounds a day so it's useless. If it were a free action to turn on at least it might be worth it.
DR/Magic just gives mook resistance. Really, how rare are 50 gold oils? No one cares about mook resistance, especially when the point is to make it so it does not become weaker over time.
Edit again: Except that the ones on the low end of the attack bonuses also have the most buffs, or simply don't care about melee because they have better things to do with their actions.
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Going by the core 3.5 rules with a standard PC race, the best armored AC attainable ... is ... 51, unless I'm missing some spell or magic item.
Considering CR 20-24 dragons... and the Tarrasque, ... the really tough opponents can hit you with almost every initial attack.
But that ultra-high AC protexts much better against the iterative attacks. If I'm standing toe-to-toe against a 19th-Level Fighter, I'll be glad to be hit only once or twice per round, instead of four or five times.
Either light armor or heavy armor can be effective; which is more effective depends more on how it's used and the specific circumstances of the encounter. Just like party composition, spell selection, etc., there is no absolute "best" choice for all situations.
DR 3/- is useful, but less useful than I think it could be. Raising it to DR 7/- or 6/- on heavy adamantine armor would be even better, since it is expensive, and unlikely that WBL would have someone in heavy adamantine armor before Level 10 or 11, unless they optimize for it.
I just like the idea that heavy armor should be an optimal option strictly from a protective standpoint. If light armor can protect as well or almost as well as heavy or medium armor, the reason for heavy armor's existance is not justified mechanically. IMHO, Light Armor should provide demonstrably less protection than Medium or Heavy Armor, and that is simply not the case. The 3 or 4 points of AC are simply not enough, and 1 or 2 points of DR, while they can add up, seems a bit low for the most protective armor money can buy.
Regardless of how high AC can get, armor has to be evaluated independantly on protective merits, as all other AC boosters are available to every single character. Even shields, as long as animated exists.
DR/Magic just gives mook resistance. Really, how rare are 50 gold oils? No one cares about mook resistance, especially when the point is to make it so it does not become weaker over time.Edit again: Except that the ones on the low end of the attack bonuses also have the most buffs, or simply don't care about melee because they have better things to do with their actions.
Sure, burn an action to get past a little bit of DR. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if the NPCs burn an action to buff, then the PCs have an extra round of action economy. Show me anyone past Level 8 who is still only using masterwork armor to protect themselves, and then I'll care. Before then, mooks are a real part of the game, and not everyone has the opportunity to prepare for an attack...so, for unenchanted armor, adding DR/magic does result in a net gain, even if it means more oils of magic weapon/magic fang laying around.
I do agree with the low end Attack bonus monsters past CR10 not caring about their BAB. Most of them are effective against touch AC or saves, so they don't need a high BAB. If they are in danger in melee, then they are likely being run wrong, or have been rendered Fighter food by the caster's spells already. I've looked at every melee opponent CR10-20+, and the AC provided by medium or heavy armor really isn't relevant to defense against them. All the other stacking AC bonuses might be, but not that 3 raw AC from the armor itself.
DR/Magic just gives mook resistance. Really, how rare are 50 gold oils? No one cares about mook resistance, especially when the point is to make it so it does not become weaker over time.Edit again: Except that the ones on the low end of the attack bonuses also have the most buffs, or simply don't care about melee because they have better things to do with their actions.
Sure, burn an action to get past a little bit of DR. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if the NPCs burn an action to buff, then the PCs have an extra round of action economy. Show me anyone past Level 8 who is still only using masterwork armor to protect themselves, and then I'll care. Before then, mooks are a real part of the game, and not everyone has the opportunity to prepare for an attack...so, for unenchanted armor, adding DR/magic does result in a net gain, even if it means more oils of magic weapon/magic fang laying around.
I do agree with the low end Attack bonus monsters past CR10 not caring about their BAB. Most of them are effective against touch AC or saves, so they don't need a high BAB. If they are in danger in melee, then they are likely being run wrong, or have been rendered Fighter food by the caster's spells already. I've looked at every melee opponent CR10-20+, and the AC provided by medium or heavy armor really isn't relevant to defense against them. All the other stacking AC bonuses might be, but not that 3 raw AC from the armor itself.
You talking about the Magic Weapon? It lasts 1 hour. More, with higher CL. Unless you surprise them they have a round to Magic Weapon up 50 arrows, spread them around, and fire. As such, only say... 1 in 5 could have such an item, and it'd still work. This tactic is viable from level 1 on as a result. This assumes of course you're still using large numbers of mooks. I mentioned it for completeness.
Due to NPC Wealth by level they likely aren't getting much better than MW. Ok, +1. They still get hit on a 2. Who cares? Especially when they so often invest in junk like +2 leather armor. That's otherwise known as get a mithril chain shirt, you idiot NPC and save some cash.
On a somewhat related note I recently constructed a CR 20 creature and a CR 19 creature.
The former is mostly a melee brute. It has 555 HP with the ability to raise that by 60 for effectively the entire combat without an action. It moves as fast or faster than the party (60) and can also fly at the same speed. Its BAB is 30, at least 10 better than anyone else can manage. It auto hits AC 45 and below for 17-27/17-27/10-25. If it chose to free action buff itself it instead auto hits AC 47 and below for 19-29/19-29/12-27. This does not factor Power Attack. In addition, add 2-12 to each attack if the target is good aligned. That's 21-41/21-41/14-39. If the bite hits, Improved Grab kicks in. Resist a grapple vs +53 or get two rakes auto hitting AC 45/47 for 16-23/18-25 each. The 2-12 versus good applies here as well. Also, make a DC 40 Fortitude save or be Stunned for 1 round.
This thing also has Pounce. Now, if you're paying attention at home that means if your AC is 47 or lower you've just taken 95% of that damage. Actually, it auto hits AC 49, because it's charging.
Conclusion: The so called good AC type has done nothing but slow himself down while this fairly average CR 20 melee brute jumps on him doing 86-135 (91-165 vs good) with 95% accuracy in the surprise round which +30 Hide and +38 Move Silently are assured or giving it, then practically auto stuns and grabs you. Congratulations. You're as good as dead. Meanwhile if you were smart, you'd have miss chances and mobility and take a lot less than that, possibly resulting in the bite missing and thereby avoiding the rakes and high DC stun.
Just to further reinforce what CR 20 is like I'll cover some of the other bases here...
SR 35 (that's high enough to matter a little).
Ability to summon a bit as per Summon Monster 9 (I'd take some massive vermin of some kind, as they are at least mildly threatening at this level).
Minor self buffing ability, mostly to get saves in the high 20s to low 30s.
Deal 1d10 Con damage via poison with a half decent DC (26).
There's some other stuff, but it's all minor for one reason or another.
The latter is a true dragon. It's not as mean in melee (only auto hitting AC 40 and lower) but then it's also 1 level lower, and not buffed. Given Sorc 11 casting it certainly is possible to improve this. Note however that against every sort of foe except Aberrations and Oozes it's auto hitting AC 45 and lower. This requires no action. Also, +5 damage on every hit against said enemies. So really, even if you actually managed to surprise the dragon somehow, it's still keeping up with that CR 20 creature up there.
Now figure a decent breath weapon DC (30) or take 18-108 damage and potentially other effects like being Stunned with the right Sorcerer spells, a decent fear aura DC (28) or be Shaken which makes the former work better, some decent spells as long as you stick away from the ones that allow saves...
Melee damage array is 18-32/12-22/12-22/11-18/11-18/23-33 for a total of 87-145. That's respectable. Not great, but respectable. Especially considering it is unbuffed.
Now this is with just 3 feats chosen. There are still 7 free. Power Attack is a no brainer, but you have all sorts of options with the rest.
Now. The point of all that is to show you what high end enemies look like to illustrate the uselessness of AC, of heavy armor, and of the 'tank' mindset in general.
I respectfully disagree that at the levels it will be the PCs effective DR option, that it will not be useful. We are talking only basic E6 levels here, and prepared, intelligent monsters are only a portion of the actual combat encounters which will occur at these levels, and generally, prepared intelligent monsters are considered to be worth a CR bump.
I respectfully disagree that at the levels it will be the PCs effective DR option, that it will not be useful. We are talking only basic E6 levels here, and prepared, intelligent monsters are only a portion of the actual combat encounters which will occur at these levels, and generally, prepared intelligent monsters are considered to be worth a CR bump.
First, what is this 'E6'? Because it sounds like some other system and is therefore irrelevant.
Second, you really think prepared intelligent creatures are rare at this level? Pfft, this is when they start getting common.
Third, why the hell would 'is not a complete dumbass' be worth a CR bump? Is the assumption here that enemies are ****ing brain dead? Because I'm laughing at someone here. Dunno if it's you or the designers yet, but someone is horrifically wrong. If anything, 'is a complete dumbass' is worth a CR nerf. Case in point: Big T. So called CR 20, owned hard by low intelligence and melee only. Given enough time he could be soloed by someone around 11 or so, or easily beaten by anyone in the low to mid teens. All it takes is fly, and range. Not that there is any point to fighting Big T, just that that is the biggest example of stupidity resulting in overinflated numbers.
I am using E6 to refer, in shorthand, to CR 1-10 challenges. This is based off a subsystem of 3.5 which stopped core character progression at level 6, and allowed characters to gain feats at every additional x interval of XP. It roughly rounds out character progression to stop around ECL 10, plus or minus.
A flying, invisible opponent is effectively higher CR than a non-flying, non-invisible opponent. And a group of opponents which can attack you, where you have limited options to damage them back, is also considered higher CR, for much the same reason.
Therefore, opponents who are intelligent, who prepare their encounters with the PCs to optimize their ability to damage or hinder the PCs while reducing the PCs abilities to damage or hinder them in return should, in fact, consume more resources to defeat than one which is simply stat versus stat. Some CRs already model this, like the Manticore's effective use of the Spikes special attack from maximum range.
I don't know what level you are talking about, but by the time CR10 monsters start showing up, any PC that is using medium or heavy armor for melee protection should already have it +1 at least, and possibly already adamantine. Which means DR=(base AC/2)/adamantine, or DR=[(base AC/2)+2 or 3]/-.
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You talking about the Magic Weapon? It lasts 1 hour. More, with higher CL. Unless you surprise them they have a round to Magic Weapon up 50 arrows, spread them around, and fire.
It seems you've made another factual error. Magic weapon has a duration of 1 minute a level, while Greater Magic weapon has a duration of 1 hour/level.
In a single fight it could still be done as you say, but because of the short duration, it is not a very effective tactic. But I get the distinct impression that it doesn't matter to you when you are wrong or someone else is right. Because, of course, if you are wrong it seems that you think everyone should do it that way anyway.
Ignoring the troll remarks, it actually is 1 minute a level. Ok. Well still good enough to prep it, though the point is still moot since we're talking about mooks attempting to bypass mook resistance. This is a subset of winning the Special Olympics - that is to say, even if the mooks bypass the mook resistance they still don't matter.
Also, E6 implies level 6 and lower which is what my remarks assumed.
Being smart doesn't boost CR, else a Wizard x wouldn't rank the same as a Fighter x. One is quite capable of outwitting and countering you, the other is just stat vs stat (and you have better stats, because you have better gear).
Full plate = 1,500 gold. You aren't getting it at level 1. Or 2. 3 is possible, but unlikely. 4 is most probable
Also, Cloak of Major Displacement requires you to torch a round to turn on, and only lasts 15 rounds a day so it's useless. If it were a free action to turn on at least it might be worth it.
At 1,100 gp, you probably aren't getting a mithral chain shirt until about the same time, either. Banded mail (+6 armor, +1 max. Dex, 250 gp) is a perfectly viable choice for a low-level character with less than 16 Dex. It's only once your Dex bonus is +3 or better that breastplate (+5 armor, +3 max. Dex, 200 gp), chain shirt (+4 armor, +4 max. Dex, 100 gp), or studded leather (+3 armor, +5 max. Dex, 25 gp) provide a higher AC. A character with a +2 Dex bonus might find chainmail (+5 armor, +2 max. Dex, 150 gp) worthwhile, but it depends on if they want a slightly higher flat-footed AC (16 banded mail vs. 15 chainmail) or touch AC (11 banded mail vs. 12 chainmail).
Even at 4th level, the highest continuous Dex a character can have is 21. The mithral chain shirt (+4 armor, +6 max. Dex) clad character with 21 Dex has 19 AC, exactly the same as the full plate (+8 armor, +1 max. Dex) clad character with 12 Dex. Cat's grace can bring a character with 18+ Dex up to 20 AC for a few minutes, but requires a spell cast on the character (which is one less for healing or attacking) or the use of a 300 gp potion or 150 gp scroll each time.
Displacement is a 3rd level Sor/Wiz spell, which means it can be placed in a wand. At 5th level, when the spell first becomes available to a wizard, this can be powerful. Because the CL of wands can be increased, this can remain a viable portion of the party's buff routine for the rest of their career (unless the majority of the foes they face have true seeing).
You can however use a normal chain shirt at level 1. Since the chances that you will have a dex higher than 18 at this level is basically nil, it grants the same degree of protection. Still need that mobility, especially in the low levels which are the OHKO range.
After doing a lot of math I have concluded that with enough money the best way to get a high AC is to not wear any armor at all and get a monk's robe.
Everything an armored person can get so can a non armored person can with the following exception.
An armored person has a max dexterity bonus and can not get a bonus to AC from a second stat.
Wearing armor needs a boost. The max dexterity needs to be increase or eliminated for starters as a non armored person does not have one.
Does anyone else have any ideas?
Well, lets think. People in combat where armor to make them harder to hurt. If someone is whereing plate armor, then yeah they'll be slow and not as agile, however, if I ran up and pucnhed them in the chest I'd break my fist.
Or respectively if I hit them with a baseball bat, or club in this case, it may not have the impact I was hoping for.
Perhaps Armor can give some kind of damage reduction? After all, I believe the term for such peoples whom perfer this form of protection is tank?
You can however use a normal chain shirt at level 1. Since the chances that you will have a dex higher than 18 at this level is basically nil, it grants the same degree of protection. Still need that mobility, especially in the low levels which are the OHKO range.
Elf or Halfling, with their +2 bonus, can start with 20 Dex at 1st level.
Again, what about the character who doesn't have 16+ Dex at 1st level? What if their Dex is only 13 (say a cleric, who needs to focus on Str, Con, Wis, and Cha at least as much as on Dex)? Should they accept an AC that's two points lower (+4 armor +1 Dex chain shirt vs. +6 armor +1 Dex banded mail) for 10 ft of movement at this stage, when a single hit can mean the difference between conscious and dying?
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Perhaps Armor can give some kind of damage reduction?
(nods) The problem here is backwards compatability. We want the NPC stat blocks of all 3.5 adventures to make sense in Pathfinder.
But, if I were king of the world, I would make make Light Damage Reduction (perhaps DR 1d4/adamantine) and Light Fortification (25%)relatively cheap (perhaps 1000 gp each) and available for all masterwork armors, ...
...Moderate Damage Reduction (perhaps DR 2d4/adamantine) and improved Fortification (50%) reasonably priced (perhaps 3500 gp each) and available for masterwork medium and heavy armors, ...
...and Heavy Damage Reduction (perhaps DR 3d4/adamantine) and Medium Fortification (75%) available for masterwork heavy armors (priced perhaps at 6500 gp each).
(Why variable DR? Because, unlike a natural DR, armor DR is dependent on, and simulates, where you get hit.)
The qualities of invulnerability and "Heavy fortification" would be magical, and invulnerability's DR would stack with the mundane DR above.
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(nods) The problem here is backwards compatability. We want the NPC stat blocks of all 3.5 adventures to make sense in Pathfinder.
Well, it wouldn't be tremendously hard, though, if armour just gave DR (i some relatively obvious way, maybe as simple as X for light, Y for medium and Z for heavy) but still had the same AC benefits. Obviously, you'd have to look at the armour they were wearing to assess the DR, but the AC wouldn't change.
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Obviously, you'd have to look at the armour they were wearing to assess the DR, but the AC wouldn't change.
Probably. There are some tricky cases: would mithril plate give DR as medium or heavy armor? What about celestial plate? What if the character had adamantine armor -- would the DR's stack? What about barbarians?
So, yeah, doable with some work, but tricky in a lot of cases.
After doing a lot of math I have concluded that with enough money the best way to get a high AC is to not wear any armor at all and get a monk's robe.
Everything an armored person can get so can a non armored person can with the following exception.
An armored person has a max dexterity bonus and can not get a bonus to AC from a second stat.
Wearing armor needs a boost. The max dexterity needs to be increase or eliminated for starters as a non armored person does not have one.
Does anyone else have any ideas?
Well, lets think. People in combat where armor to make them harder to hurt. If someone is whereing plate armor, then yeah they'll be slow and not as agile, however, if I ran up and pucnhed them in the chest I'd break my fist.
Or respectively if I hit them with a baseball bat, or club in this case, it may not have the impact I was hoping for.
Perhaps Armor can give some kind of damage reduction? After all, I believe the term for such peoples whom perfer this form of protection is tank?
You know I have not heard this stated so plane and simple terms, I am bought, heavier/metal armor should grant DR. Although I think movement should be encumbrance only.
You can however use a normal chain shirt at level 1. Since the chances that you will have a dex higher than 18 at this level is basically nil, it grants the same degree of protection. Still need that mobility, especially in the low levels which are the OHKO range.Elf or Halfling, with their +2 bonus, can start with 20 Dex at 1st level.
Again, what about the character who doesn't have 16+ Dex at 1st level? What if their Dex is only 13 (say a cleric, who needs to focus on Str, Con, Wis, and Cha at least as much as on Dex)? Should they accept an AC that's two points lower (+4 armor +1 Dex chain shirt vs. +6 armor +1 Dex banded mail) for 10 ft of movement at this stage, when a single hit can mean the difference between conscious and dying?
Can =/= should. The opportunity cost is far too high to justify it. Therefore, the chance is basically nil.
If they are a cleric, they need mobility even more as they are both fighting and delivering touch spells. Though they do only need charisma if they're focused on turning (not merely getting turn attempts, those are easy) which in turn is a highly specialized build, assuming of course you want your turns to actually affect level appropriate undead. Also, clerics are casters and thus have access to the meaningful defenses aka not AC.
You can however use a normal chain shirt at level 1. Since the chances that you will have a dex higher than 18 at this level is basically nil, it grants the same degree of protection. Still need that mobility, especially in the low levels which are the OHKO range.Elf or Halfling, with their +2 bonus, can start with 20 Dex at 1st level.
Again, what about the character who doesn't have 16+ Dex at 1st level? What if their Dex is only 13 (say a cleric, who needs to focus on Str, Con, Wis, and Cha at least as much as on Dex)? Should they accept an AC that's two points lower (+4 armor +1 Dex chain shirt vs. +6 armor +1 Dex banded mail) for 10 ft of movement at this stage, when a single hit can mean the difference between conscious and dying?
Can =/= should. The opportunity cost is far too high to justify it. Therefore, the chance is basically nil.
If they are a cleric, they need mobility even more as they are both fighting and delivering touch spells. Though they do only need charisma if they're focused on turning (not merely getting turn attempts, those are easy) which in turn is a highly specialized build, assuming of course you want your turns to actually affect level appropriate undead. Also, clerics are casters and thus have access to the meaningful defenses aka not AC.
That depends on how you play a cleric. Not everyone concentrates on touch spells. Personally, I like to take the Magic domain (use spell completion and spell trigger items as if a wizard of one-half cleric level) and use arcane ranged attack wands (even with a 12 or 13 Dex, the faster BAB advancement evens things out by level 3 or 7 against a sorcerer or wizard; 3rd for a 14/15 Dex, 7th for a 16/17 Dex). This lets them act as the arcane caster's "bodyguard" (freeing up a warrior type) while still contributing as a second blaster/controller (and saving prepared spells for party buffs, emergency healing, and general troubleshooting). By the time wands start becoming less effective (after 7th level), the cleric has enough self-buff (and other) options that they can fill several roles.
In a lot of parties, clerics are the only characters with Turn (or Rebuke) Undead at low levels. It's also the time that undead are 1) fairly common (skeletons and zombies especially) and 2) usually difficult to deal with (the party's limited resources make even ghouls potential TPKs). Even in the middle levels, undead can be very nasty and appear with some regularity in many campaigns. A 14+ Cha and 5+ ranks in Knowledge (Religion) can help keep the cleric effective against undead for for a while, even without the Sun domain or Turn-boosting feats.
Undead gain a minimum of 2 HD per 1 CR, and if they don't they have turn resistance to account for the difference. For those of you paying attention at home, that means it only takes 3-4 levels for the Cleric to fall off the RNG and be unable to affect the enemy, barring that optimization that lets him keep up.
Your example results in you gimping yourself hard (casting a little Magic Missile or Lesser Orb of whatever = no one cares) to 'free up' someone that should be weaker than you and whose actions are therefore less important.
I also remind you cure whatever wounds is touch range. While not worth casting in combat, it is sometimes necessary in emergencies to prevent someone from dying. It certainly sucks less as an action than plinking away for inconsequential and irrelevant damage. Heal is also touch range and is worth a combat action.
Did I mention that you're even less of a 'bodyguard' than that BSF is? Hell, you're encouragement to run over and get two for the price of one on the delicacy that is casters. Naturally this means that Wizard is going to live or die by his own merits, your actions having no impact on his survival chances at best and lowering it at worse due to that more tempting target thing.
BSF = Big Stupid Fighter, aka One Trick Pony sans One Trick.
Strange, the above low- to mid- level strategy has worked in multiple campaigns with multiple DMs (various locations over the last few years), using both published and home-brew material, without "gimping" the character or "plinking away for inconsequential and irrelevant damage." And before you say it, these were usually not DMs who fudged (in either direction) or "took it easy on us."
The DMs didn't hyper-optimize all of the opposition because the stock designs are "weak," either. Supplementary material was usually limited to specific works (or even specific portions of specific works) that would be incorporated within the campaign setting's history and cultures. In other words, we mostly played near the baseline in the core rules instead of in a munchkin arms race.
Note that from 1st until 7th level (when divine power becomes available) a cleric is not a stronger combatant than a fighter. A buffed cleric of 1st to 6th level can be better than an unbuffed fighter of equal level, but a buffed fighter (counting potions and spells) is still better. Nor do I run a cleric as a combat medic, requiring me to cast spells in melee to save someone who got into trouble. The people I game with tend to use group tactics and teamwork instead of running around the battlefield as a bunch of individuals. Also, being able to do up to 5d6 damage each round (possibly in an area) is still very relevant during these levels (not to mention color spray, ray of enfeeblement, glitterdust, Tasha's hideous laughter, web, etc.).
You're not going to get a reply as CoL has been banned for three days (and it seems to me that people don't always come back anyhow once bans have been used).
We'll see...
I don't have the patience to get into an edge case vs. baseline discussion, which is where the main issues seem to be with him.
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We'll see...
I don't have the patience to get into an edge case vs. baseline discussion, which is where the main issues seem to be with him.
Conversations often end up in those places. However, on AC (and with his other thread with some suggested solutions) it seems that CoL's general view -- armour and shield AC is too expensive to be worth it -- is relatively common. I personally agree with him on the idea that the binary nature of AC is a problem, where you take damage or you don't, and the role of nearly all armour is just in making that decision rather than in mitigating the damage (and DR3/-, alas, isn't very impressive), a problem that reaches its nadir with some of the higher-CR melee brutes whom we'd like the fighter to be able to have a bit of toe-to-toe with.
But that's a conversation for the other thread, I guess.
...CoL's general view -- armour and shield AC is too expensive to be worth it -- is relatively common. I personally agree with him on the idea that the binary nature of AC is a problem, where you take damage or you don't, and the role of nearly all armour is just in making that decision rather than in mitigating the damage (and DR 3/-, alas, isn't very impressive), a problem that reaches its nadir with some of the higher-CR melee brutes whom we'd like the fighter to be able to have a bit of toe-to-toe with.
AC progression does break down somewhat at high level play (unless you start using polymorph to gain +11 natural armor as a green hag) because of the hard limit on applicable bonuses, as I noted above, and the lack of any such limit on monster attack bonuses (especially since the monster advancement rules have some problems). However, except for dragons and a few other outliers, stock/published CR 20-24 monsters pretty much all have a +30-40 attack bonus, so having "only" an AC of 45 or so will not seriously penalize characters vs. most encounters in groups that take this baseline into account.
Supplements can increase the limit of applicable bonuses in both directions, but tend to increase the possible attack bonuses more than possible AC bonuses. This exacerbates an already potentially unbalanced situation.
However, saying that armor is too expensive to be worth it at all levels or in all situations is very much overstating the issue. That is the essence of edge case vs. baseline. If you want fighters to go toe-to-toe with high CR brutes, assume that the fighter will have around AC 45 (or 50 with supplements) and don't over-optimize the brute so that AC 45 (50) is an auto-hit.
I'm beginning to wonder if apples are being compared to turnips here. I keep seeing people discuss an AC problem between levels 10~15, but against monsters CR 20~24... which leads me to question why your DM is regularly putting you up against monsters with a CR 9~10 levels higher than your party limit.
If it's because the monsters are getting squashed too fast, is he really using all the monster's potential against the party? I've found that I can use CR monsters equal to the party level and cost the party anywhere from 1/5 their resources to 1/2 their resources in a single encounter, by actually using what the monsters have.
Our current party, which is by no means optimized is running around 12~14th level, the arcane caster's ACs are hanging in around 23~26 range, the flankers/light combatants are running about 30~35 AC, and our tanks are running a flat 40 each. Generally the DM can really touch the front liners without a crit, and the lighter combatants (except the arcane's) are about 50/50 on taking hits. The arcane casters generally stay out of attack range and control battlefield/blast away. We have 6~8 players normally, so the DM doubles the monsters HP or numbers, (just hp not related stats) and halves our monetary rewards. Even with that I'm not seeing an AC problem.
I'm beginning to wonder if apples are being compared to turnips here. I keep seeing people discuss an AC problem between levels 10~15, but against monsters CR 20~24... which leads me to question why your DM is regularly putting you up against monsters with a CR 9~10 levels higher than your party limit.
Above 15th level, you run into a limit of how high your AC can be. Between 10th and 15th level, your AC should still be increasing by at least 4-5 points as you improve the bonus on your armor and possibly (animated) shield, your amulet of natural armor, ring of protection, etc. and invest in feats/prestige classes that grant AC bonuses. This should keep pace with the attack bonus of baseline opponents.
What some people are attempting to argue is that even the tanks are hit unless the attacker rolls a 1, so heavy armor is useless.
Strange, the above low- to mid- level strategy has worked in multiple campaigns with multiple DMs (various locations over the last few years), using both published and home-brew material, without "gimping" the character or "plinking away for inconsequential and irrelevant damage." And before you say it, these were usually not DMs who fudged (in either direction) or "took it easy on us."
The DMs didn't hyper-optimize all of the opposition because the stock designs are "weak," either. Supplementary material was usually limited to specific works (or even specific portions of specific works) that would be incorporated within the campaign setting's history and cultures. In other words, we mostly played near the baseline in the core rules instead of in a munchkin arms race.
Note that from 1st until 7th level (when divine power becomes available) a cleric is not a stronger combatant than a fighter. A buffed cleric of 1st to 6th level can be better than an unbuffed fighter of equal level, but a buffed fighter (counting potions and spells) is still better. Nor do I run a cleric as a combat medic, requiring me to cast spells in melee to save someone who got into trouble. The people I game with tend to use group tactics and teamwork instead of running around the battlefield as a bunch of individuals. Also, being able to do up to 5d6 damage each round (possibly in an area) is still very relevant during these levels (not to mention color spray, ray of enfeeblement, glitterdust, Tasha's hideous laughter, web, etc.).
Standard disclaimer: This is how the game works. Change it or deal with it, but opinions never enter into the equation be they mine or anyone else's.
Except that those spells are coming from wands. Therefore they have the minimum possible DC, and by the time you can get them have long since lapsed past usefulness such that about the only way you're getting any mileage out of a save DC wand is to put so much raw power into it it doesn't matter if they pass the save. In other words, Maximized Twinned Admixtured Fireballs at level 6 courtesy of the friendly neighborhood Artificer.
Core baselines mean only casters are ever worth considering, other guys can never get the tools they need. 5d6 isn't relevant at level 5, even when you have a meaningful save DC. It's about a quarter a single creature in a standard encounter's HP if they fail the save, which is to say you just tickle them a bit. Not that you'd have a Fireball wand at level 5 without lots of craft cost reduction shenanigans.
Standard disclaimer: This is how the game works. Change it or deal with it, but opinions never enter into the equation be they mine or anyone else's.
AC progression does break down somewhat at high level play (unless you start using polymorph to gain +11 natural armor as a green hag) because of the hard limit on applicable bonuses, as I noted above, and the lack of any such limit on monster attack bonuses (especially since the monster advancement rules have some problems). However, except for dragons and a few other outliers, stock/published CR 20-24 monsters pretty much all have a +30-40 attack bonus, so having "only" an AC of 45 or so will not seriously penalize characters vs. most encounters in groups that take this baseline into account.
False. CR 20 is 6 dragons, 2 outsiders, and Big T (who has the best melee stats of all since it is all he can ever do, outsiders end up with only mediocre mundane offensive stats because they get many special abilities and therefore fewer HD per CR). Also note those two outsiders are stated to prefer tactics basically summarized as screw the party with save or dies and/or save or sucks until crippled, then make the deaths official with melee. All of the above also has much better than those low numbers. CR 21-24 illustrates this even better since the only way you're ever fighting anything else at CR 20-24 is via monster advancement aka much better melee stats, or lower level stuff with class levels which both isn't worth its CR, and is still better than a piddly little +40.
However, saying that armor is too expensive to be worth it at all levels or in all situations is very much overstating the issue. That is the essence of edge case vs. baseline. If you want fighters to go toe-to-toe with high CR brutes, assume that the fighter will have around AC 45 (or 50 with supplements) and don't over-optimize the brute so that AC 45 (50) is an auto-hit.
It doesn't require much if any optimization to do that. You just need a +43, or +48. That's it. That isn't even that hard to get. Big T gets about 10-15 points higher, and he's taken frickin' Toughness 6 times! The last encounter I designed hit +43 with half or more of its feats unchosen, and none of its triple standard gear which means it can be as well equipped as a human NPC while having a much better starting chassis. So we have someone who is pretty damn specialized in AC being routinely slaughtered by fairly weak enemies due to poor design. Were these creatures truly optimized, it'd be far worse. Hint: Wraithstrike + dragon = win, and that's just one low level trick.
I'm beginning to wonder if apples are being compared to turnips here. I keep seeing people discuss an AC problem between levels 10~15, but against monsters CR 20~24... which leads me to question why your DM is regularly putting you up against monsters with a CR 9~10 levels higher than your party limit.
If it's because the monsters are getting squashed too fast, is he really using all the monster's potential against the party? I've found that I can use CR monsters equal to the party level and cost the party anywhere from 1/5 their resources to 1/2 their resources in a single encounter, by actually using what the monsters have.
Our current party, which is by no means optimized is running around 12~14th level, the arcane caster's ACs are hanging in around 23~26 range, the flankers/light combatants are running about 30~35 AC, and our tanks are running a flat 40 each. Generally the DM can really touch the front liners without a crit, and the lighter combatants (except the arcane's) are about 50/50 on taking hits. The arcane casters generally stay out of attack range and control battlefield/blast away. We have 6~8 players normally, so the DM doubles the monsters HP or numbers, (just hp not related stats) and halves our monetary rewards. Even with that I'm not seeing an AC problem.
Apples are only getting compared to turnips if you are looking at my posts, looking at the drastically different and often wrong and/or misrepresenting posts by others, and assuming this is all coming from the same source despite the obvious disagreement.
The correct stance is that the AC problem becomes increasingly apparent with each increase in level. By 10-15, it's very obvious you are going to be hit on a 2 regardless by whatever you fight except perhaps barring the Hydra like enemies that have relatively low to hits, but many different attacks. Go into 16-20, and there's no longer any doubt left the only thing AC is doing is making you take lower damage from each hit due to less PA, however you're still going from full to near dead in one full attack so...
The only explanation I can think of for your examples is either a veritable **** ton of buffing is going on there, or the front liners made turtles who the DM is coddling by not making enemies with a semblance of intelligence behave as such and ignore the non threats.
Just to give an idea... The last combat involved a Marilith (hydra like), Nalfeshnee, and some lesser demons (Vrocks and Hezrous) that are really just there to support. This is actually an example that favors AC, and the group spent time buffing up to get to decent numbers (casters ended up with 35-40, melees had about 2 points higher because heavy armor does jack crap for you except slow you down).
Despite this, and the large numbers of peons with only 20-30 to hit involved (the group buffs up on some demon's doorstep, who were expecting them so naturally some return buffing occurred, however this did little to their offense and a lot to their easily buffed defense) one PC nearly died and was saved by a contingent healing effect followed by a Heal spell, another PC nearly died and was saved by a contingent healing effect followed by a Heal spell, a third PC was nickel and dimed down to easily be a full attack away from death with such a creature just a 5' step away but cast Heal, the fourth PC was largely ignored due to only doing like 30 damage a round and therefore not being relevant, cohort 1 got nickel and dimed down to around half while essentially being ignored for any direct attack (Chaos Hammers, spores, etc did it), cohort 2 gets nickel and dimed down a little, then beaten down by a full attack, saved by a contingent healing effect, then killed anyways by the rest of said full attack. The contingent healing effect was the Greater Healing property, without which about half the party or more would have died. It kicks in automatically if you drop into negatives without dying but has a usage limit which is why that cohort died anyways (no more charges).
In other words, an example very favorable to AC still illustrates it wasn't really doing that much, as that Marilith was capable of two round KOing anyone in the party (she had a slightly lower chance against cohort 1, mostly because he has like 24 Con and therefore over 200 HP or something, not because his AC is 2 higher). One round KOs were quite possible against the Cleric (forgot the Con item) and cohort 2 (9 HD = low HP). If that Marilith were instead something that focused on less than 6 full accuracy attacks and a 7th at near full accuracy so as to not be hydra like (low attack bonus, lots of attacks), it would have been worse. If someone didn't have See Invisible always on, that Nalfeshnee would have really ruined people's days due to that +2 on every attack and aiming at flat footed AC in a party where everyone except two people has Dex 20 or better. The first is the heavy armor 'AC specialist', the second simply forgot to snag the appropriate item.
1. Our DM doesn't coddle, if he can he prefers a TPK every time we sit at the table.
2. We aren't turtling, the front liners generally charge in actually, and the dwarven defender almost never bothers using her stance.
3. The most buffing happens on the mages, and we almost never waste our time buffing the front liners, the closest we get is hasting everyone in the party.
4. The DM is complaining that he can't hit the tanks unless he gets natural twenties.
Just so people realise, we are playing RotR right now, and we are in the school place, that certain people train at.
That Marilith needs a 15+ to hit those tanks, with her + 25, even giving her +5 weapons drops it down to 10+ to hit the tanks. A nalfeshnee needs a natural twenty with it's natural weapons to hit the tanks, only +20 to hit on bite, +17 to hit on the claws. Grant him some way to get a + 5 enhancement to those and it does drop to +15, and + 17, but even then he's not 'auto-hitting'. And that marilith is still 4 levels above our CR and the Nalfeshee is 1 (for the party's CR level).
Those are unbuffed stats. Buffed stats came out looking more like this. Note that this is a tame roll on the 1d4 magic swords thing and could have been a lot worse if the roll was higher than 1 and better properties had came up.
"Full attack: +3 Flaming Burst Longsword +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 melee (2d6+13 + 1d6 fire/17-20 + 1d10 fire) and 5 longswords +27 melee (2d6+6/17-20) and tail slap +21 melee (4d6+5); or 7 slams +26 melee (1d8+10) and tail slap +21 melee (4d6+5)."
Also, default feat arrangements suck. Enter the appropriate Blood in the Water. And Improved Critical, thus the 17-20 range. Still not really optimal (no scimitars, not so many other tricks).
The Nalfeshnee looked like this for the same reasons.
Full attack: 2 bites +27 melee (2d8+12) and 2 claws +27 melee (1d8+8). (does not include up to +5 attack and damage applicable to any creature that isn't an aberration or an ooze with a minimum result of +2 on all counts).
Damage output if everything hits = 46-88 (67), not counting the up to +5 * 4. Overall still pretty tame.
It did help though that the Vrocks were free to do the support thing with TK, spores, and so forth while hiding behind various defenses, and the Hezrous did the same to a lesser extent with their stench (Chaos Hammer didn't do jack, as the DC was trivial).
Funny thing is before the buffs the casters had the best defenses in the party aside from the 'AC specialist' who was about 1 or 2 points ahead. After... well, they still are. The other melee guy had the lowest. Mostly because he forgot to pack his buckler/animated shield in favor of a minute a level power. Which is nice, except that it is a minute a level power. That, and special properties. Yes, those tasty things.
Well my above post took into account + 5 weapons on the maralith, beyond that though if you start changing feats and what not (which is an ok idea) you can quickly change the CR of the fight. Buffing the monsters isn't a bad thing... but how did they do it? Looking over their spell-like abilities there aren't much buffing available.
I know that i can easily hit ac 50 at level 16 on a fighter without buffs, but that's me.
I looked the dragons, the big T, those are diffenently not rated correctly on CR. The rest don't seem too far off, generally hitting about 1/2 the time on ac 40, which seems right to me. It's not supposed to be a missfeast for the monsters either.
Well my above post took into account + 5 weapons on the maralith, beyond that though if you start changing feats and what not (which is an ok idea) you can quickly change the CR of the fight. Buffing the monsters isn't a bad thing... but how did they do it? Looking over their spell-like abilities there aren't much buffing available.
I know that i can easily hit ac 50 at level 16 on a fighter without buffs, but that's me.
I looked the dragons, the big T, those are diffenently not rated correctly on CR. The rest don't seem too far off, generally hitting about 1/2 the time on ac 40, which seems right to me. It's not supposed to be a missfeast for the monsters either.
Hitting half the time on AC 40 just means they have a +29 to hit. Seeing as the melee brutes have hit this point about oh... 6-8 levels ago even with the crap feats and such the MM saddles them with, and even a Rogue 20 can do better pretty easily despite having a pretty damn low to hit score... You are artificially setting the baseline way too low to ever be relevant. Unless you're scared of getting conked for 1d6+4 by the 8 Str Wizard's quarterstaff or something.
Just to really drive the point home...
As for how did they do it... Mariliths have Magic Weapon at will, so that should always be on. There's also Unholy Aura which is a round a level, but at will. See above. There's +4 to every defensive stat. Demons get treasure. Anyone can use potions. Anyone with UMD can use scrolls. Mariliths come standard with UMD, which is clearly intended to indicate they regularly employ it or else it would not be maxed. Nalfeshnees? Same deal. You know how buffable monsters are? Well the answer is very, because all of their stats are coming from natural abilities (natural armor and dex for AC, stat and HD for saves, Str and BAB for attack...) which means unlike a PC, they don't have to dip a bunch of minor bonus types to get respectable stats. They can just get AC +8 off 2 core 1st level spells, another +5 off a 2nd level spell, then there's Haste, Greater Magic Fang... all low level spells.
Had they simply entered the place, the demons wouldn't have had as much time to prepare for them. They also would not have been as prepared. No Align Weapon for example, or Haste. The terrain would also be more closed in so it's not ten on six. But I did a good job of scaring the crap out of everyone.
As for it changing CR... since no player is going to settle for the junk feats, why would a monster? Especially a freakin' ancient cosmic power monster... ok, not quite. But these are Greater Demons. They deserve their Tiltowait. Cookie if you get the reference. More to the point, the monsters had to take that junk because core could only reference itself. Why would the enemies have that restriction and not the PCs? Note that if it is a core only game, discussing melee viability is automatically invalid because the concept doesn't exist there.
For the record, explain how you are getting AC 50 unbuffed without turtling. If it is turtling, just say so because that's a forfeit. If it involves spending all 280k on AC gear see turtles.
Well, I tend to stay to core on such these sorts of conversations just to have a baseline everyone can touch, when I stay core though, I'm assuming that if the monsters are core only, then the players are too.
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the baseline AC of 40 being too low, could you rephrase it? I realise that 40 isn't hard to do but we agreed that after buffing that's about the lowest in the party, so I went with that as the bottom, figuring that the higher AC's are easy to expolate from there.
I agree with the monsters being buffed, it can and does happen, but usually magic items use the lowest caster level possible, which is fine, but our wizard's tend to pop a greater dispel magic off the bat at anything, to clear those sorts of things off.
The maralith's entry isn't entirely correct either they forget to include the weapon focus feat in her attack block.
+16 BAB from HD, + 9 from Str, + 1 from weapon focus = + 26 to start If her magic weapons are going to be better than using her magic weapon ability (which only turns them into +1 weapons) so I'm assuming she is using + 5 long swords with other attributes, putting her up to + 31, buffing with say Aid, and Bull's Strength puts her up to + 34, haste bringing it up to + 35.
Not bad, but still not autohitting on an AC 50 for a tank (at level sixteen that's + 5 mithral full plate, + 5 heavy shield, + 5 Ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, and the fighter's armor training bonus (+4) and a dex bonus of + 6 (dex of 22) a belt of physical prowess + 4 still leaves about 20,000 gp for a weapon +3 of some sort). Buffing up the tank could easily add another 10~15 points to his AC just from there, depending on the buffs choosen, and I'm not including the dodge feat here either.
I'm not sure I disagree with you that AC isn't good enough, I'm just trying to make sure we are on the same page of the same book, sometimes it's hard to know what someone else is talking about across the internet.