The way I see races there are 2 different aspects to races, actual physical characteristics (Low Light vision, size, keen senses, etc) and cultural traits (racial hatred, defensive training, languages, weapon familiarity), there is a third set of traits which fall somewhere in-between such as elven magic.
I've seen a lot of people complain about the various cultural aspects and I think in a lot of ways these complaints are well founded. Are all gnome communities surrounded by giants and kobolds so they are taught how to fight them? Do elves raise in elven cities learn the longbow as a child? Overall, I think the racial packages are fairly well balanced for any class but what if there were a more flexible way to assign cultural traits, and many give some cultural traits to humans as well?
Borrowing heavily for the "traits" in Pathfinder, we could take racial traits and break them into those which all members of a race get and those which are chosen from a menu of options at first level. Typical races would get all the physical characteristics of the race plus 2 cultural racial traits they choose from a list. These can either be race specific ones, or general traits. Humans would get 1 general 'trait', half elves would get to choose 2 traits, a general trait and an elf specific trait.
As an example the gnome race would look something like this:
Gnome
Physical Characteristics
+2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: Gnomes are physically weak but surprisingly hardy, and their attitude makes them naturally agreeable.
Small: Gnomes are Small creatures, and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Slow Speed: Gnomes have a base speed of 20 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Gnomes can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.
Keen Senses: Gnomes receive a +2 bonus on smell- and touch-based Perception checks.
Racial Traits
A gnome player character can pick 2 of the follow racial traits upon character creation:
Obsessive: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of their choice.
Illusion Resistant: Gnomes get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against illusion spells or effects.
Gnome Magic: Gnomes add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against illusion spells that they cast. Gnomes with a Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome’s level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10+ the spell’s level + the gnome’s Charisma modifier.
Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes treat any weapon with the word “gnome” in its name as a martial weapon.
Hatred: Gnomes receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the reptilian and goblin subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.
[i]Defensive Training: Gnomes get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type.
Tinkering: Some Gnomes are obsessive tinkerers, these gnomes gain a +2 to all disable device skill checks.
Languages: Gnomes begin play speaking Common, Gnome, and Sylvan. Gnomes with high Intelligence scores
can choose any of the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc.
Note: I am not suggesting specific mechanics for the gnome, just trying to demonstrate how you might split up a races physical characteristics from cultural traits. Please discuss the mechanics rather than the specific implementation.
What you are suggesting is that the core rules present a system for creating cultural packages, and that any setting would by necessity include those packages so that characters could be created for that setting, rather than a generic "race x" that only might have a setting change (if I understand rightly).
I was arguing for the same idea in a favored class thread. I feel this is really the way to set up the system. You have presented it well. Sign me up!
What you are suggesting is that the core rules present a system for creating cultural packages, and that any setting would by necessity include those packages so that characters could be created for that setting, rather than a generic "race x" that only might have a setting change (if I understand rightly).
This is more-or-less the idea. One significant advantage is that it's very easy to modify a race based on a region or situation. "Halflings born in XXX have the following choices of racial traits". You can easily tune it down to a single country, region, or even a city.
Again, this idea is mostly ripped from the traits in Pathfinder and ideas others have presented here so it's not entirely mine.
Nicely done.
B.T.W., have you ever played Fantasy Hero? Or even G.U.R.P.S.?
The reason I ask, is that you are starting to talk about "toolkitting" which is the basic idea behind both of those systems.
B.T.W., have you ever played Fantasy Hero? Or even G.U.R.P.S.?
The reason I ask, is that you are starting to talk about "toolkitting" which is the basic idea behind both of those systems.
I've poked around with GURPS but not Fantasy Hero. To be honest I don't game much outside of D&D... erm PRPG (Gotta get used to that).
Yeah, this is exactly the sort of thing I envisioned. If it were used to replace the Preferred Character Classes, I would add traits that improve abilities relating to Bard and Sorcerer classes (Sorcerer's ok, actually, but Bard could use more, maybe).
I realize that you just did that as a demonstration, of course.
-Steve
I like the idea, though limiting the human to one trait may be gimping them a little. It may be a little tough to pinpoint what traits should be racial and what should be physical, but overall I think it would be a better option than currently in use.
Just a question here...
Could/should this mechanic replace the concept of favored class (which I am not too fond of) by giving options that are aimed at the performance of particular classes?
If so, that would definitively win my vote.
I like the idea, though limiting the human to one trait may be gimping them a little. It may be a little tough to pinpoint what traits should be racial and what should be physical, but overall I think it would be a better option than currently in use.
Well right now humans have no racial traits and they get a feat plus skill points. I think the Pathfinder traits you get 2 at first level and that wouldn't hurt my feelings. If so then it should be humans get 2 general traits half elves get 2 general traits and 1 elf trait, other races get 3 traits, they can choose between the general or their specific racial traits.
Racial traits should be slightly more powerful than the general traits to encourage the races to use their racial characteristics.
So I was thinking on the Gnome some more and based on suggestions was thinking more like so:
Gnome
Physical Characteristics
- +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: Gnomes are physically weak but surprisingly hardy, and their attitude makes them naturally agreeable.
- Small: Gnomes are Small creatures, and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
- Slow Speed: Gnomes have a base speed of 20 feet.
- Low-Light Vision: Gnomes can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.
- Keen Senses: Gnomes receive a +2 bonus on smell- and touch-based Perception checks.
- Illusion Resistant: Gnomes get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against illusion spells or effects.
- Gnome Magic: Gnomes add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against illusion spells that they cast. Gnomes with a Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome’s level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10+ the spell’s level + the gnome’s Charisma modifier.
- Languages: Gnomes begin play speaking Common, Gnome, and Sylvan. Gnomes with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc.
Racial Traits
- Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes treat any weapon with the word “gnome” in its name as a martial weapon.
- Obsessive: Gnomes with this trait receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of their choice. Treat this class skill as trained even if the character has no ranks in the skill.
- Gnome Training: Some gnomes receive special martial training against their racial foes. These gnomes gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the reptilian and goblin subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.
- Defensive Training: Gnomes with this trait get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type.
- The Knack: Some gnomes have a special knack for musical instruments. Gnomes with this trait gain a +2 on all perform checks with a musical instrument.
- Fey Blood: Gnomes are related to the Fey, gnomes with this trait have a particularly strong Fey heritage and cast spells at +1 caster level. Gnomes with this feat must choose the Sorcerer Fey Blood line
These last 2 are examples I made up... I moved languages back up because I think if the languages cost a trait no one would take them. I modified a couple of the traits as well.
Again... mostly a proof of concept, more interested in the mechanism than the implementation.
Just a question here...
Could/should this mechanic replace the concept of favored class (which I am not too fond of) by giving options that are aimed at the performance of particular classes?
If so, that would definitively win my vote.
See the changes I made to the gnome race in the last post. You could easily make several traits geared more towards specific classes which would encourage characters to take those favored classes.
See the changes I made to the gnome race in the last post. You could easily make several traits geared more towards specific classes which would encourage characters to take those favored classes.Just a question here...
Could/should this mechanic replace the concept of favored class (which I am not too fond of) by giving options that are aimed at the performance of particular classes?
If so, that would definitively win my vote.
I would make Fey Blood more limiting, since it's supposed to be half a feat. Why not limit it to spells of the enchantment/illusion schools?
I realize we're sort of tilting at windmills a little here, but I think this is a good process.
-Steve
See the changes I made to the gnome race in the last post. You could easily make several traits geared more towards specific classes which would encourage characters to take those favored classes.Just a question here...
Could/should this mechanic replace the concept of favored class (which I am not too fond of) by giving options that are aimed at the performance of particular classes?
If so, that would definitively win my vote.
interesting... and promising.
as a bonus, this could easily solve a few reincarnation and polymorph issues as well.
I would make Fey Blood more limiting, since it's supposed to be half a feat. Why not limit it to spells of the enchantment/illusion schools?
Well I really didn't want to chase down the specifics of my example... but can't resist the urge. I didn't want yet another illusionist oriented class feature, I wanted something targeted specifically at the sorcery/ fey end of the bloodline. That trait is actually more powerful than I intended it to be. Maybe something more on the lines of the Elven Magic/ spell penetration thing? Ackk!!! must resist urge to play with creation, focus on general idea.
Human character customization could be regional, people from here choose from these, etc. Really only works if there is an established setting, like Golarion; but that's, more or less, where we're talking about, no?
Regional traits would be ideal but I think there could be some more or less generic traits.
My brain isn't fully engaged anymore, perhaps:
- Seaborne: You were raised aboard a seagoing ship, treat profession (sailor) as a trained skill and gain a +2 bonus on all profession (sailor) and survival rolls while at sea.
- Desert Dweller: You gain a +3 on all survival roles in a desert environment
Someone can certainly come up with something better than this.
Human character customization could be regional, people from here choose from these, etc. Really only works if there is an established setting, like Golarion; but that's, more or less, where we're talking about, no?
No, for this to work as a replacement for preferred character classes out of the box, it would have to be applicable to a general setting.
I'm not running a Golarion setting myself, and I would like some general characteristics that I could use without having to take the time to personally develop them.
Development efforts here not-withstanding...
-Steve
The KnackduhduhDUHduhDUH..my sharona...
Heheh... wait till we break out the cleric friendly dwarf feats.
The Cure: Your character is gifted with healing and any healing spells you cast heal 1 additional point of damage per die rolled.
Ohhh lord. Time to go to bed.
No, for this to work as a replacement for preferred character classes out of the box, it would have to be applicable to a general setting.
I completely agree. A set of generic traits should be included but custom racial and regional feats should be slightly better to encourage the players to adopt their heritage. Any traits section in the core book should be fairly small and simple though.
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The KnackduhduhDUHduhDUH..my sharona...Heheh... wait till we break out the cleric friendly dwarf feats.
The Cure: Your character is gifted with healing and any healing spells you cast heal 1 additional point of damage per die rolled.
Ohhh lord. Time to go to bed.
i saw them a couple of months ago. they played some stuff they haven't played live since the first time i saw them (over 20 years ago...) :)
I really like this idea. It takes some other suggestions that have been floating around and combines it into a strong whole. I greatly dislike the current favored class rules, and the "hatred" type abilities never really felt right, but this system would fix both in one elegant package. Why not make races a 'pick-em' system when that's where the core classes have been heading.
No, for this to work as a replacement for preferred character classes out of the box, it would have to be applicable to a general setting.I completely agree. A set of generic traits should be included but custom racial and regional feats should be slightly better to encourage the players to adopt their heritage. Any traits section in the core book should be fairly small and simple though.
I'm not sure if the feats/traits need to be *better* for the regional and racial ones. I think you just need to have more focused choices for the races.
I'm going on vacation starting tomorrow. I'll be gone for about ten days. Might have a limited access to the internet, but certainly not as much as right now. Hope you all have fun while I'm out.
-Steve
I like this idea. Before I thought you were suggesting something else, but I do like this.
I like this idea too.
I'm pretty sure this is the kind of mind-melding constructive work that Jason is looking for from us. Some of these threads wind up in "yes it is--no it isn't" and that doesn"t help much.
A lot of published settings that I have looked at already have jiggled racial qualities (especially elves--why are they a target?) but putting a system to it will help from having uber-races, and encourage players to change up.
Dennis, consider me completely in favor of this idea. It makes sense both logically and mechanically, and if done correctly, could even remove the need for specific sub-races (e.g., "Valley Gnomes have the Gnome Training and Fey Blood traits.").
Lord Fyre, if Paizo wrote adventures to support GURPS, many of us would be playing that right now. But because they support Pathfinder, we're happy to play that. That said, as long as the a la carte menu can be used to create the "base" combinations, I see no reason not to allow some options as well -- that was the whole idea behind variant class features and substitution levels in 3.0/3.5.
I just stumbled on this thread, but I love the idea. In the PbP I am roughing out right now cultural/racial traits are a big hit with the players. As the DM I like the tie-ins they give the PC to the setting. I have made a few specific to the game I am putting together, it seems to be very easy to do.
I agree with this concept. My players always manage to concoct a reasonable background that breaks the racial powers. Really, players should be able to take physical characteristics of one race, and then some cultural characteristics from both parent cultures, or replace their original with a different one. This could be a advantage for the halfbreeds.
I'm a stickler for terminology, though, and I think the above "racial" options should be rephrased as "cultural" options, since that's what they are (including languages!).
Human character customization could be regional, people from here choose from these, etc. Really only works if there is an established setting, like Golarion; but that's, more or less, where we're talking about, no?
Here's a point I'd like to raise: I am puzzled that humans always have varied regional feats, but other races are homogenous the world over. No desert elves? No sea-faring orcs? Why not? If cultures get their own powers, regions should be a separate, but related, affair for all races.
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I'm in favor of this rather neat idea (it pretty much involves adding a break in a races stats and seperating the already present abilities).
In a way, it slightly underpowers the races if you give a choice of 2 from previous racial abilities, but PRPG does balance this out with other enhancements. This is easy to tinker with anyway.
It also makes it really easy for DMs to allow a character to be raised by another culture (raised by elves, you can pick Elven traits instead of others). For races with only a few cultural traits (humans), being raised by elves gives them even more options.
I really hope Jason sees everyones comments here, because so far it seems there is no argument AGAINST the idea.
Also, considering Jason is at least thinking of adding Racial Feats, this system makes it much easier to plug-and-play those, since they can take the place of a racial trait instead (say, if Paizo publishes PRPG Book of Dwarves, it can include all new cultural traits). It also fits the PRPG open-world goals.
I think that traits are a good idea because it allows a little more character customization within a storytelling framework. I do echo Toyrobots in that it should be either "cultural" or "regional" traits, since this will give folks more accesibility. Racial traits imply that only that race can take them. If you want to make a culture of seafaring pirate Orcs, say, or Desert raider Bedouin Elves you can use traits to give them flavor without reworking the whole race. It also gives the DM the chance to diversify non-human races a bit without a lot of work.
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Here's a point I'd like to raise: I am puzzled that humans always have varied regional feats, but other races are homogenous the world over. No desert elves? No sea-faring orcs? Why not? If cultures get their own powers, regions should be a separate, but related, affair for all races.
And a good point it is. Every race will be affected by their surroundings, be it climate, nationality, warfare, disease, etc. This must be why TSR, WotC, and nearly every RPG that I've played/seen has a truckload of supplements to address these concerns. Since we're talking about a general CORE book, we need to remain more general in our view.
Or you can make 'race-touched' variants, like a Human culture that has close interaction with a nearby Elven culture. The culture could allow Elven-style traits from centuries of cross-racial marraiges, despite for the most part being Human. Not quite Half-Elves, but rather a Human culture with some Elven blood. PCs could choose between a cafeteria of both elvish and human cultural traits, depending one how far they want the character to go in either direction.
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I think for this to work one would need to look at the "cultural" abilities of each race. If they are not balanced then you would have to determine which race, or races have the most slots. Once you have determined how to break up these abilities you have to allow enough slots to built the races the way they are now. I think if you take away from what they can now do you will have an uproar on your hands from people who do like the way races are now. You also have to think about backwards compatibility. There are people who will be looking to PFRPG to replace 3.5 who are not looking for a new setting, but want a game that allows them to continue playing the game they enjoy. I am not trying to be a stick in the mud. I like the idea as long as you could build the race as it is now then I see no problem with the system. The races who have less "culture" features should get more empty slots to fill to equal those who have the most I think that is the only way you are going to keep the min/maxer power gamer from looking at who has the most slots, and suddenly flooding the world with whichever race ended up with the most slots. It would be humorous if it turned out to be gnome though. I can see season one PFS now filled with gnomes at every table from all corners of the world. :)
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Or, rather than have a limit to choices, just have each race be able to swap cultural traits with those from other races.
For example, a dwarf could swap Hatred for Human Weapon Proficiency. This might involve grouping some cultural traits (in the above example, for balance one might need Defensive Training as part of the exchange).
That way the basic races remain the default package.
I think for this to work one would need to look at the "cultural" abilities of each race. If they are not balanced then you would have to determine which race, or races have the most slots. Once you have determined how to break up these abilities you have to allow enough slots to built the races the way they are now. I think if you take away from what they can now do you will have an uproar on your hands from people who do like the way races are now. You also have to think about backwards compatibility. There are people who will be looking to PFRPG to replace 3.5 who are not looking for a new setting, but want a game that allows them to continue playing the game they enjoy. I am not trying to be a stick in the mud. I like the idea as long as you could build the race as it is now then I see no problem with the system. The races who have less "culture" features should get more empty slots to fill to equal those who have the most I think that is the only way you are going to keep the min/maxer power gamer from looking at who has the most slots, and suddenly flooding the world with whichever race ended up with the most slots. It would be humorous if it turned out to be gnome though. I can see season one PFS now filled with gnomes at every table from all corners of the world. :)
To this end, I'm quite happy to see a "nod" in the GMing section that simply addresses the issue without making it a full-blown system. Tell us it's okay for GMs to switch out cultural abilities, and heck, go as far as a "cultural" asterisk on some racial powers just to keep things straight. Also, make sure players understand that just because something is in the GM section doesn't mean it's PC building material— that's how PrC's went wrong in my opinion.
So yes, no reason to go nuts with it. Just a nod will do.
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I think for this to work one would need to look at the "cultural" abilities of each race. If they are not balanced then you would have to determine which race, or races have the most slots. Once you have determined how to break up these abilities you have to allow enough slots to built the races the way they are now. I think if you take away from what they can now do you will have an uproar on your hands from people who do like the way races are now. You also have to think about backwards compatibility. There are people who will be looking to PFRPG to replace 3.5 who are not looking for a new setting, but want a game that allows them to continue playing the game they enjoy. I am not trying to be a stick in the mud. I like the idea as long as you could build the race as it is now then I see no problem with the system. The races who have less "culture" features should get more empty slots to fill to equal those who have the most I think that is the only way you are going to keep the min/maxer power gamer from looking at who has the most slots, and suddenly flooding the world with whichever race ended up with the most slots. It would be humorous if it turned out to be gnome though. I can see season one PFS now filled with gnomes at every table from all corners of the world. :)To this end, I'm quite happy to see a "nod" in the GMing section that simply addresses the issue without making it a full-blown system. Tell us it's okay for GMs to switch out cultural abilities, and heck, go as far as a "cultural" asterisk on some racial powers just to keep things straight. Also, make sure players understand that just because something is in the GM section doesn't mean it's PC building material— that's how PrC's went wrong in my opinion.
So yes, no reason to go nuts with it. Just a nod will do.
Well, the final page of the character creation section of the 3.5 PHB includes just such a statement - that DMs can allow players to swap out abilities for others in regards to class (and possibly race, can't remember off-hand). But having it as a consideration of the PRPG system would be helpful to some DMs.
For example, a dwarf could swap Hatred for Human Weapon Proficiency. This might involve grouping some cultural traits (in the above example, for balance one might need Defensive Training as part of the exchange).
Well I really would prefer to limit certain 'cultural' traits to a given race. For example, Dwarfs should have access to Dwarven Weapon Proficiencies not Human or Elven weapon proficiencies. Likewise, elves should not have access to Defensive training against giants.
The idea would be to keep racial identities while allowing for a bit of variety and customization. If a DM wanted to make an exception and allow a dwarf player to cross over into another races cultural feats there should be a good reason.
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For example, a dwarf could swap Hatred for Human Weapon Proficiency. This might involve grouping some cultural traits (in the above example, for balance one might need Defensive Training as part of the exchange).Well I really would prefer to limit certain 'cultural' traits to a given race. For example, Dwarfs should have access to Dwarven Weapon Proficiencies not Human or Elven weapon proficiencies. Likewise, elves should not have access to Defensive training against giants.
The idea would be to keep racial identities while allowing for a bit of variety and customization. If a DM wanted to make an exception and allow a dwarf player to cross over into another races cultural feats there should be a good reason.
I agree. I am not advocating for wanton swapping of abilities, just a consideration in the system that some players/DMs may want to do this and to accomodate without bending the normal rules. For example, if a player really wants an Elf raised by Dwarves, they should probably get the Dwarven Weapons/Training (maybe not Hatred), but also lose Elven Weapons.
Great idea. I agree with the post above that it doesn't make sense for dwarves to be the same world-wide. A system like this allows for regional non-humans just like there are regional humans.
Something like true regional feats would be something that would be incorporated into the campaign setting or stewed up by DMs. Any sort of core system mechanics would be pretty generic.
