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As far as elves are concerned, to me at least, it makes a degree of sense. They're longer lived then every other race, have more time to train, and their whole generically-applied culture revolves around forestry where bowmanship would make sense.
Dwarves are also quite long lived (even if a lot elss than elves) and a militant society so they might have training and militia to teach them this (yes, conjetures)
bus as Jason stated, the idea here is to give races some Cultural Flavor more than a Maximus Bonus for playing char and race...
but the idea for regional weapons for characters is fine, my fellow players would love that posibility for Varisian getting the feat to use the weapons of the region around the history of "Burning Offering"
Hey there all,
Interesting discussion. To be honest, I never saw the overlap as much of a problem. To be honest, this is a relatively minor bonus. The real use for this is for reinforcing some racial preconceptions. The human bit was added to give them at least some focus (but since they are humans, the thought here is that it might turn regional, for your particular campaign world).
If we are looking at redesigning this, I would strongly suggest that the line of thought be: "what can we do to make these bonuses reinforce the racial ideas" and avoid worrying about a little bit of overlap or obsolesence if a class with all martial weapons is chosen.
Jason my problem definately isn't overlap. The whole argument some are making about "fairness" with weapon familiarity doesn't ring true for me, really, since different races have different focuses.
My problem is that this seems to be overpowering some races' less martial classes with a considerable number of weapons. There is no reason that a dwarven sorcerer would be familiar with a battleaxe. And I cannot fathom a human commoner ably using a greatsword.
I realize that elves make the exception to this, but it doesn't seem as glaring to me for some reason. Maybe because they live so long.
-Steve
Shisumo and Subversive are to the point. Nice arguments.
With or without weapon training, humans are still a powerful race. I would say human, elves and dwarves are the most powerful core races. The only race that needs to be improved are half-elvs....and yet I still play a half-elf rogue. And since I play more of a combat rogue a human would have been more munchkin. Extra feat, martial weapon of their choice, extra skill points, favored class of their choice, +2 to any one ability score. The only weak race is half-elf and I'm surpriced no one has started a thread about giving the half-elves a better deal. Perhaps giving them weapon familiarity of some sort, e.g. longbows or longswords. But hey, what if I play a half-elf fighter; then the weapon familiarity will become useless.
Actually, I think Half Elves have been nicely balanced out, FINALLY (kudos). They get a +2 bonus to anything, low-light vision, immunity to sleep and resistance to enchantments. They have skill focus, keen senses, and can choose a preferred class like humans. That's not a bad package for someone looking for versatility with a non-human flavor. They lose out on the free feat, but they have a lot of other bonuses instead.
I don't think they should get elven weapon familiarity, since the point of half-elves is that they are sort of outsiders and wouldn't gain the same kind of cultural training that regular elves do in most cases.
-Steve
3) Replace racial weapon proficiencies with +1 racial bonuses to attack rolls with the indicated weapons. Cultural identities are retained, all classes benefit from the bonus equally, and characters who've never before trained in combat don't automatically count as fully proficient.
Giving a +1 to heavy combat weapons is *much* more powerful at low levels than simply allowing proficiency. This is especially true when addressing NPCs. Suddenly a 1st lvl human warrior gets a much better chance of hitting your PCs then he did before.
-Steve
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If we are looking at redesigning this, I would strongly suggest that the line of thought be: "what can we do to make these bonuses reinforce the racial ideas" and avoid worrying about a little bit of overlap or obsolesence if a class with all martial weapons is chosen.
I was thinking more toward the balance between the races rather than the classes.
Half-Elves currently get nothing weapon wise. As a race defining its identity by reflection of one or both of the parent cultures I would expect some flavor of at least one to show through. (I guess you could make a similar argument for Half-Orcs but the stereotype has them leaning more toward the Orc culture than the Human culture.)
Halflings get next to nothing. (Of the PC classes only Wizards are not proficient with sling and of the NPC classes only Commoners might not be proficient. There is no Halfling Exotic weapon in the base rules.)
Humans get weapon training. This may be enough but it would still be nice to have an exotic weapon available like the other races.
Thanks for chiming in. It is nice to know folks are listening.
I was thinking more toward the balance between the races rather than the classes.
Half-Elves currently get nothing weapon wise. As a race defining its identity by reflection of one or both of the parent cultures I would expect some flavor of at least one to show through. (I guess you could make a similar argument for Half-Orcs but the stereotype has them leaning more toward the Orc culture than the Human culture.)
Halflings get next to nothing. (Of the PC classes only Wizards are not proficient with sling and of the NPC classes only Commoners might not be proficient. There is no Halfling Exotic weapon in the base rules.)
Humans get weapon training. This may be enough but it would still be nice to have an exotic weapon available like the other races.
I don't think that the races *need* be be balanced in this way. Having every race be able to use an exotic weapon is not balance. Different races excell at different areas, and their abilities should reflect this. It's flavor that we're looking for, not balance.
That's not to say that the classes shouldn't all be equally playable. But they should excell at doing different things, not the same things in slightly different variations thereof.
-Steve
They've done the same thing to several of the other races, dwarves especially. Does it really make sense that a dwarven commoner knows how to use a battleaxe, heavy pick, and warhammer? Or that Half-orcs know how to use falchions and greataxes? The worst is halflings, who have this awesome racial knowledge of... slings. Every PC class but wizards know how to use slings.
I do believe the dwarven weapons make sense. A pick for a miner/ a hammer for smith wich are two common dwarven jobs.
And for the Axe, that's a weapon of pride for the bearded fellows.Orcs are a race of war So it's obvious orc raised half-orcs know somew cool weapon skills (as for the human raised ones.... just let your imagination take over (makes up for a nice backstory)
Also I picture halflings as a playfull race. They must have picked up sling use in their youth... The little rascals.
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I have never played a human melee class - fighter, paladin, etc since I might as well get the extra bonuses from another race rather than the martial weapon training which is useless from humans.
I would allow Half elves to choose between elven weapon familiarity or human weapon training but change human weapon training to weapon training or one free exotic weapon familiarity if already martial weapon proficient
Why not just let Humans reduce the penalty for laking weapon familiarity from 4 to say 2 for all weapons. It still lets wizards flourish a sword or an axe or whatever, but leaves an incentive to take a full weapon proficiency. It also lets a Human fighter pick up some exotic weapon they found as loot and use it if they need to.
Why not just let Humans reduce the penalty for laking weapon familiarity from 4 to say 2 for all weapons. It still lets wizards flourish a sword or an axe or whatever, but leaves an incentive to take a full weapon proficiency. It also lets a Human fighter pick up some exotic weapon they found as loot and use it if they need to.
nice idea
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Why not just let Humans reduce the penalty for laking weapon familiarity from 4 to say 2 for all weapons. It still lets wizards flourish a sword or an axe or whatever, but leaves an incentive to take a full weapon proficiency. It also lets a Human fighter pick up some exotic weapon they found as loot and use it if they need to.
I third this idea! it really gives a good mechanical reason that humans are so prominent and powerful as a race in the world, when even commoners can pick up a martial or exotic weapon and have a good chance of having a -1 or 0 to hit.
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Why not just let Humans reduce the penalty for laking weapon familiarity from 4 to say 2 for all weapons. It still lets wizards flourish a sword or an axe or whatever, but leaves an incentive to take a full weapon proficiency. It also lets a Human fighter pick up some exotic weapon they found as loot and use it if they need to.
I like this far better!
Why not just let Humans reduce the penalty for laking weapon familiarity from 4 to say 2 for all weapons. It still lets wizards flourish a sword or an axe or whatever, but leaves an incentive to take a full weapon proficiency. It also lets a Human fighter pick up some exotic weapon they found as loot and use it if they need to.
I'd love to see this playtested. It totally fits the humans-as-adaptable theme that the race is known for.
my playtest group has been using the "trade out the martial weapon prof for a Weapon focus, and in specific cirumstances, Exotic weapon prof" it has not been unbalanced in the least. with skill consolidation, the bonus skill point (while still very nice) is slightly less powerful
and I will say that any tweaks to Halfelf needs to be minor, I think they are doing fairly good
Giving a +1 to hit with the weapon would have less impact than a free Weapon Focus feat. Giving the Weapon Focus feat unlocks the subsequent versions which is a great advantage. I'd say no feat.
As for bastard swords being the "Sword of Humans," lets ignore the fact that Gygaxian economics ignores the realities of why everybody on the battlefield didn't use one. Instead let's entertain the idea that an above-average strength is required to use and live through your first battle. A STR of 14 might be a good standard.
on the other hand, orc-face, *not* giving them the feat allows for more powerful characters later on, as you would have a racial bonus that would stack with the weapon focus feat.
That said, I'm against the +1 bonus thing already. I don't want even *more* incentive to make my fighter a human. Thats why I agree that overlap is not a problem.
I am a bit concerned about the whole martial thing though. In my game I ran I had the human sorcerer say that he was proficient in the Guisarme. His reasoning? Because it was fun to say "Guisarme." I'm not making that up. He never bought one, just joked that someday, I was going to roll on the random treasure table and get like a +4 Guisarme and his character would be like "DIBS!". Then I imagine it would sit in his pack while he cast Fireball.
That seems odd to me. I think you should only be proficient in non-simple weapons if you actually intend to use them. That sorcerer didn't ever intend to *use* a Guisarme, he just picked it anyway. It's not that it's useless to him that is the problem, the problem is: How the hell did this sorcerer learn how to use a Guisarme?!!! If his father was a master Guisarme-ist, you'd think he'd raise his boy to be a fighter. This would go doubly so for wizards, who you'd think would devote all their time to study, and not be fumbling around outside trying to get the captian of the city watch to give him some pointers on using the Guisarme.
Well, for what it's worth, as I posted in the one of the other threads on this subject, we've gone with saying that the martial classes can tale 'Improved Unarmed Combat' as their bonus human WP.
I am in favor of giving humans Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword if they are already proficient in all martial weapons. I would even offer Two-Bladed Sword or a double weapon of their choice as alternatives. Practically no-one ever uses those anyway.
It would not result in Human Commoners running around with bastard swords or exotice double weapons; ONLY human MARTIAL HEROES are getting this benefit. Specifically, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers. The NPC Commoners, like any other PC or NPC class that is not proficient in all martial weapons, would get human weapon training with one martial weapon proficiency: battleaxe for woodcutters perhaps, or longsword or spear for someone in a town millitia.
In other words, Human Bastard Sword FTW ;).
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I'm a dwarf cleric. Aw man, I already get Profession skills as class skill - my Profession (stone stuff) racial ability is useless! I should get a Skill Focus feat!
I'm an elf fighter. Aw man, my elven magic and my racial proficiencies are useless! I should get a free cantrip and Weapon Focus feats!
I'm a gnome paladin. Aw man, I don't have any illusion spells on my spell list - my illusion ability is useless! i should be able to add an illusion spell at each level to my list!
After having read the thread thus far I must come to Shisumo's point as did Karui Kage.
Pretty much sums up my argument.
Personally, I didn't think that the human ability block as printed needs any changing, but if I absolutely had to tweak it, I might chose the suggestion of "Humans take a non-proficient penalty of -2 instead of -4."
I dont see what the big deal is if fighters gain noting, eleven fighters gain nothing from longsword and bows but ya dont see folks wanting them to get auto weapon focus
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i remember 2nd ed and elves bonuses being better for the fighter classes (you got a +1 to attack with longswords and longbows, but did not gain proficiency) i mean, are all elves equally trained with longswords? or do they have leanings towards it?
if your not going with something like this then have a list of regional "exotic" weapons for humans to chose from (seriously, think about giving some flare to the human fighter classes.)
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Hey there all,
Interesting discussion. To be honest, I never saw the overlap as much of a problem. To be honest, this is a relatively minor bonus. The real use for this is for reinforcing some racial preconceptions. The human bit was added to give them at least some focus (but since they are humans, the thought here is that it might turn regional, for your particular campaign world).
If we are looking at redesigning this, I would strongly suggest that the line of thought be: "what can we do to make these bonuses reinforce the racial ideas" and avoid worrying about a little bit of overlap or obsolesence if a class with all martial weapons is chosen.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I always saw the racial idea of a human being diversity, so that giving them a weapon prof really just adds flavor to the character. I'm not sure if it it well balanced, but in the theme of diversity what about either 1 weapon prof, or 1 skill added to your class skill list. Selected at time of character creation. In both cases you make sure that the ability doesn't unfairly stack if the character later multi-classes and gains access to that skill/weapon, but lets you have a singing barbarian, and and a flail wielding mage if that is what you want to be.
My two cents worth,
First I don't play fighters but I do almost always play humans.
In the current play test climate thats going on in my game my DM absolutely despised with an undying passion the thought of my mage using a great axe because of my race.
We compromised by saying I get a free martial feat that directly relates to my class weapons. So I now have two weapon fighting for my staff and I am honestly interested in two weapon defense as well. That was how we settled something my DM didnt like but made the human feat not so wide open.
I think that if you already know all the weapons then you should get the armor or sheild or something else related but not exotic weapons.
That's how I run it - if you play a race that has a certain weapon proficiency and take a class that gives you that same weapon proficiency you are allowed to take a free Weapon Focus in one of those over-lapping weapon proficiencies. It doesn't seem too out of balance (though the +1 is +5% to hit, and a bigger deal at low levels), but I think it makes sense.
I like that rule. I'm going to try it out in my game.