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Chances are your Walden Books simply is not aware that there are any other RPGs out there
Or if they are then they possibly don't believe there's sufficient market to carry more than just a small supply of the dominant line.
Ask the general public to name an RPG and the top 4 answers will most likely be:
1. huh? What's an RPG?
2. Rocket propelled grenade?
3. some computer game
4. D&D
any non-D&D game will be *way* down the list.
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Chances are your Walden Books simply is not aware that there are any other RPGs out thereOr if they are then they possibly don't believe there's sufficient market to carry more than just a small supply of the dominant line.
Ask the general public to name an RPG and the top 4 answers will most likely be:
1. huh? What's an RPG?
2. Rocket propelled grenade?
3. some computer game
4. D&Dany non-D&D game will be *way* down the list.
The first thing I get when I tell people I play RPGs, is they think Sexual...
Me Tarzan, you jane!
Quite frankly from what I've seen, just as many as I have seen in the 4e forums ... and frequently, it is the exact same people.
I agree completely Ixan, but how many from the other side have you seen crossing over into Pathfinder or even 3E forums to 'stirr up trouble'?
Then why does the 4E forum have a reputation as a place were flame wars happen and the other forums don't have such a reputation?
The first thing I get when I tell people I play RPGs, is they think Sexual...
Me Tarzan, you jane!
But who's Cheeta?
Yes, it's snarky. Don't care.
Snark!
What's all this fearmongering talk about FLGS going out of business? Wotc can be replaced. Based on their poor customer care, and twisted maneuverings, they've earned their right to be in the trash-heap.
On the one hand, I doubt WotC is in any trouble at all, and the "4e is failing so they have to change the GSL" is a load of hooey in my mind. That being said, as for the hypothetical that WotC can be replaced and FLGS going out of business is fearmongering, IF WotC did go belly-up in a devastatingly fast way, it would seriously harm the gaming industry as a whole for two reasons.
#1 Distributors. I believe most of the distributors aren't RPG only, but it's a very significant portion of their business. (And I think many of them have the majority of their other business being comic books, which isn't exactly a solid industry at the moment either). With the vast majority of RPG sales being WotC D&D, if that disappeared, the distributors would be seriously hurt. When the 3e bubble popped (either from d20 glut, 3.5 killing 3.0 sales, or whatever reason people quote), distributors got hurt and that killed off many third party publishers and nearly killed off many others. If WotC vanished, the industry would recover, but many third party companies would be taken down with them as distributors (as well as FLGS) shifted focus and restructured to cover their losses. And many FLGS have such slim margins, that even if D&D isn't a major part of their business, for many it's a noticeable part that would be the straw the breaks the camel's back, so to speak.
#2 The gamers who buy primarily WotC D&D. Those of us active on a Paizo messageboard are pretty familiar with the non-WotC options. But I'm pretty convinced (and what little market data there has been supports this) that the vast majority of gamers are either WotC only, or 80/20 WotC third party. If those products disappeared, many would look for alternatives like Paizo, but a lot would just shrug and be happy with the books they have and the money they will be saving, and therefore stop shopping for RPG.
Either way, if WotC went under, it would harm the entire industry. That's not fearmongering, that's the reality of business where one company dominates the market regardless of that company's customer service. I doubt the industry would die, of course, but it would get awfully bleak for quite a while and I doubt many of my favorite writers and companies would survive that.
Oh, and that reminds me of #3 - freelancers. Without the (typically) bigger paychecks of WotC, many freelancer writers and artists would leave the industry. I see the loss of that talent as harm to the industry as well.
So like them or not, as the industry currently is, as WotC goes, so goes the rest. (Now, I have hopes for how big Paizo will grow and influence the industry, but for now, they are a long ways from being WotC. But we can dream.)
Then why does the 4E forum have a reputation as a place were flame wars happen and the other forums don't have such a reputation?
Mainly, because people would rather spend there time whining about editions wars or someone insulting a game or trying to win an online argument because it seems to be the only place they seem to be able to empower themselves.
You can debate who is more insulting on these boards, Enworld's boards, WotC's boards, or any other boards all you want, but generally, the insults, negative attitudes, and severely faulty rhetoric is equal on all sides. To think otherwise is to ignore the reality of online forums. Maybe people don't see their side as being insulting/negative/pot-stirring because they simply don't want to.
I'll be the first to admit that I have posted things that can be insulting or baiting or otherwise in poor form for discourse, but I have tried to contain myself of late. There are far more posts I have *not* written simply because they will do nothing but stir things up. And considering my *job* is to teach rhetoric/rhetorical fallacies and to analyze writers' rhetoric to determine the underlying intent on the author's part, I can honestly say I could get far more material for a Rhet/Comp PhD on the poor argumentation displayed in online forums than I would ever need.
And just to clarify: reputations are normally created by people who wish to diminish the opposing sides credibility and should rarely be taken seriously.
I'll be the first to admit that I have posted things that can be insulting or baiting or otherwise in poor form for discourse, but I have tried to contain myself of late.
Accepting that you have a problem is the first step towards a full recovery.
:)
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If WotC vanished, the industry would recover.
Thanks, Ken. You've been respectfully articulate. I appreciate all of the points you've made. Still, the industry would recover, and I argue after it shakes out, it could be even stronger. I deplore monopolies, and the 80% share seems to take its biggest bite out of the consumer - with crazy wotc business decisions, missed deadlines, undelivered promises, smoke-and-mirrors-marketing, lack of integrity, and a long sordid history of mistreating their customers... Frankly, I'd like to be around one day when they tank, and watch some true leaders like PAIZO rise up.
Its kind of like preferring a democracy over a monarchy because one is sick of the king. Until 4e, the destruction of the realms, the cancelation of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, I might have said it was a benevolent monarchy. But now scorned by the bloodsucking marketeers and the horrible spin on everything, and the insults lobbed at former loyalists - - - I guess REVOLUTION is in order!
I'll be the first to admit that I have posted things that can be insulting or baiting or otherwise in poor form for discourse, but I have tried to contain myself of late.
Accepting that you have a problem is the first step towards a full recovery.
:)
Gosh, you're right. There really is nobody on the 4e side who would ever non-sequitur or speak in a condescending manner. I stand corrected.
Gosh, you're right. There really is nobody on the 4e side who would ever non-sequitur or speak in a condescending manner. I stand corrected.
I am glad I could be of assitance, if you need anything else just ring the bell.
Gosh, you're right. There really is nobody on the 4e side who would ever non-sequitur or speak in a condescending manner. I stand corrected.
I'll be the first to admit that I have posted things that can be insulting or baiting or otherwise in poor form for discourse, but I have tried to contain myself of late.
Accepting that you have a problem is the first step towards a full recovery.
:)
Thumbs down to the sarcasm. On a more serious note, don't you think that the phrase "4E side" might be a touch polarizing? I like 4E, but I'm on Wotc's "side." I don't hesitate to call them out for stupid mistakes (GSL anyone?).
On a more serious note, don't you think that the phrase "4E side" might be a touch polarizing?
I doubt me saying "4e side" in a sardonic response is going to polarize anything any more than it already is. I mean really, both "sides" (by which I mean the extremist portions) are fairly set in their poles.
Thumbs down to the sarcasm. On a more serious note, don't you think that the phrase "4E side" might be a touch polarizing? I like 4E, but I'm on Wotc's "side." I don't hesitate to call them out for stupid mistakes (GSL anyone?).
Its the binary situation, you are either with me or against me. It just doesnt have occured to them that we may like both things.
/shrug
Thumbs down to the sarcasm. On a more serious note, don't you think that the phrase "4E side" might be a touch polarizing? I like 4E, but I'm on Wotc's "side." I don't hesitate to call them out for stupid mistakes (GSL anyone?).Its the binary situation, you are either with me or against me. It just doesnt have occured to them that we may like both things.
/shrug
Don't you think the use of "them" might be a touch polarizing?
Don't you think the use of "them" might be a touch polarizing?
Only to those who are incorrect. By which, of course, I mean those who disagree with me. 'Cause I'm right. :P
Only to those who are incorrect. By which, of course, I mean those who disagree with me. 'Cause I'm right. :P
Don't you think the use of "them" might be a touch polarizing?
Meowth, dat's right!
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I am getting Sick and tired of these 4e Vs 3.5 arguments going on...
Just for the record, I personally don't like 4E vs. 3.5 arguments either. Comparing 4E to previous editions to then build an argument as to how 4E might be better or worse to one's personal tastes, I see it as a fine thing, and we've had some good discussions (yes, discussions) about this on this very forum (I call CWM, David Marks and others I've disagreed with in these discussions as witnesses).
I personally said, repeatedly, that I would play 4E and could see myself enjoying the game very much. I think the system on its own has its merits. I also happen to think this is not what I think of "D&D" when I think "D&D" (I'm a AD&D child, and I happen to think that 3.5 has a lot in common with AD&D1 - but that's for another topic). You can think both. I do.
Now, the system itself has nothing to do with the discussion here, IMO. This topic here discusses the merits of the existence of 4E, the business sense behind it, the integrity of WotC as a corporation, its marketing and PR. What the company stands for.
I for one (and others here) try very hard to not mix the two topics. I think it's healthy not to.
If WotC vanished, the industry would recover.Thanks, Ken. You've been respectfully articulate. I appreciate all of the points you've made. Still, the industry would recover, and I argue after it shakes out, it could be even stronger. I deplore monopolies, and the 80% share seems to take its biggest bite out of the consumer - with crazy wotc business decisions, missed deadlines, undelivered promises, smoke-and-mirrors-marketing, lack of integrity, and a long sordid history of mistreating their customers... Frankly, I'd like to be around one day when they tank, and watch some true leaders like PAIZO rise up.
Its kind of like preferring a democracy over a monarchy because one is sick of the king. Until 4e, the destruction of the realms, the cancelation of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, I might have said it was a benevolent monarchy. But now scorned by the bloodsucking marketeers and the horrible spin on everything, and the insults lobbed at former loyalists - - -
I actually agree that I think an industry with several top players would be much better for everyone, especially the gamers. If WotC hadn't lost me with their edition change, their business decisions and failed promises would surely have taken a massive chunk out of my enthusiasm for their products.
I guess my hope is that a company like Paizo can slowly grow to epic proportions. Mainly same result, just less painful to all involved, especially all of the good people who would lose their jobs in such a fallout (at WotC and elsewhere). So I don't really want to see WotC utterly crash even if I disagree with most of what they've done over the past year. Some gamers still enjoy 4e and WotC's products and I'm fine with that. I just want that 800lb gorilla to go on a diet and have some other gorillas move in with it. ;)
The leaders like Paizo can rise while WotC is still stumbling around with it's overpromising and underdelivering (as well as their "everything we did before sucked, but what we're doing now is mathematically perfect and we totally won't say the same thing when 5e is released" marketing campaign).
I guess REVOLUTION is in order!
And the revolution will be PDFed!
(So when the Pathfinder RPG Beta PDF is available on the 14th - I wonder, is that at midnight or when the staff gets in and flips the switch?)
The first thing I get when I tell people I play RPGs, is they think Sexual...
That says a lot about gaming today. Tell them you play TTRPGS; they'll probably get the wrong idea and instantly want to take their clothes off and ERP with you. ;-p
Here's an example of a game that died.
Galactic Empires was a CCG about spaceship combat.
It lasted a few years, then it was bought out by a company that never put out another card. Some of the artists who worked on it never got paid. The company who bought it continued to have conventions to market their board games such as Hercules and Zena.
The results? The only science fiction games that put out cards are based on Star Wars and Star Trek. Recently Star Wars came out with cardboard models like the pirates game. Star Trek doesn't because their ships are too big. Shuttlecraft maybe.
Anyways, CCGs didn't die. Independant science fiction card games became less attractive to investors. You can now regale me with the differences between Galactic Empires and 4th edition.
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..Sorry, suffering the urge to snark about the announcement:
"Our new fansite policy, in light of a ruling by the US Supreme Court, is that we will no longer water board fansite web masters nor imprison them behind walls of "Cease and Desist" orders. The reported allegations of using them as a cheap source of labor in our Chinese prison camp factories is totally baseless. Our accounting department ruled that plan to be non-cost effective."
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..Sorry, suffering the urge to snark about the announcement:
"Our new fansite policy, in light of a ruling by the US Supreme Court, is that we will no longer water board fansite web masters nor imprison them behind walls of "Cease and Desist" orders. The reported allegations of using them as a cheap source of labor in our Chinese prison camp factories is totally baseless. Our accounting department ruled that plan to be non-cost effective."
Erm is that a real announcment and if it is could someone tell me where a link to it would be?