WotC to Revise D&D 4th Edition GSL and SRD


4th Edition

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Sovereign Court

Link

WotC to Revise D&D 4th Edition GSL and SRD
08/11/2008News Archive

Wizards of the Coast announces a forthcoming revision to the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Game System License (GSL) and System Reference Document (SRD).

“We recognize the important role third party publishing support plays in the success of the 4th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons. We have listened to the community and our valued colleagues and have taken their concerns and recommendations to heart. Our commitment to the health of the industry and hobby gaming lifestyle is reflected in the revisions to the Game System License.”
--Linae Foster D&D Licensing Manager

While the delivery date is not yet firmly established, the revised documents will be available in the very near future.

The new fan site policy, to be made public at a later date, will be posted upon completion.

Sovereign Court

This is very good news! A step in the right direction for WotC.


WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Also known as "We don't really have a GenCon release other than 4e FR, so we need something for the fans to feel good about while they're over looking at Pathfinder."

Yes, it's snarky. Don't care.


Kvantum wrote:
Also known as "We don't really have a GenCon release other than 4e FR, so we need something for the fans to feel good about while they're over looking at Pathfinder"

Maybe...but...maybe not.

Edit: Also, I looked at the Pathfinder Campaign Setting...didn't do it for me, probably won't do it for a lot of other people, too.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I'd advise only cautious optimism until we see what changes make it into the next version. Maybe only some of the common concerns get addressed, or maybe some of the changes won't adequately adress the concerns. I hope that they make all of the changes that the 3PP community has collectively asked for, but I've learned not to count chickens before they hatch, since you never know when one hatches into a cockatrice.


Kvantum wrote:
Also known as "We don't really have a GenCon release other than 4e FR, so we need something for the fans to feel good about while they're over looking at Pathfinder"

I am slightly less cynical than you are about this.

In my eyes, this is one more sign that Wizards is listening to the fans. Might be a bit late though.


Kvantum wrote:

Also known as "We don't really have a GenCon release other than 4e FR, so we need something for the fans to feel good about while they're over looking at Pathfinder."

Yes, it's snarky. Don't care.

DM's Screen

H3 Pyramid of Shadows

But you know, don't let reality get in the way of your snark.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Anaxxius wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
Also known as "We don't really have a GenCon release other than 4e FR, so we need something for the fans to feel good about while they're over looking at Pathfinder"
Maybe...but...maybe not.

Well, if it does bring about verifiable, substantive changes it's a good thing, a very good thing for the industry. But that's relying on WotC's lawyers to realize most of the flaws in the GSL from a non-WotC perspective are flaws for WotC as well, and thus far... what have they done to engender any good will since the OGL? It took Scott and Linae pulling teeth to even get the GSL as it stands right now.

Dark Archive

Kvantum wrote:

Also known as "We don't really have a GenCon release other than 4e FR, so we need something for the fans to feel good about while they're over looking at Pathfinder."

Yes, it's snarky. Don't care.

hehehe

Oh so true!


Pete Apple wrote:

Link

WotC to Revise D&D 4th Edition GSL and SRD
08/11/2008News Archive

Wizards of the Coast announces a forthcoming revision to the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Game System License (GSL) and System Reference Document (SRD).

“We recognize the important role third party publishing support plays in the success of the 4th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons. We have listened to the community and our valued colleagues and have taken their concerns and recommendations to heart. Our commitment to the health of the industry and hobby gaming lifestyle is reflected in the revisions to the Game System License.”
--Linae Foster D&D Licensing Manager

While the delivery date is not yet firmly established, the revised documents will be available in the very near future.

The new fan site policy, to be made public at a later date, will be posted upon completion.

I think this is great news. Personally I want to see the restriction on modules quoting statblocks lifted, the limitation on the GSL being a single-route license (as in if the GSL goes you could continue publishing under the OGL) and a better wording for some of the clauses people are using to fuel paranoid ideas (one I read said the GSL was written to allow wotc to take over other companies).

I'm not personally bothered by any limitations preventing someone from making 'bob's version of D&D using the core rules' but I know some might want to see a 4e-styles M&M equivalent.


Nameless wrote:
This is very good news! A step in the right direction for WotC.

I am sorry but being a 3rd party publisher, I am even MORE skeptic to the GSL. WOTC could have done this from the beginning, but they didn't because they thought they did not have to make the GSL 3PP friendly. But now since they have lost just about all the major 3rd party publishers support for 4th edition, now WOTC feels it is time to "do the right thing” and support 3PP with a “new” GSL. This is just another misstep in the whole release in 4th edition from WOTC. I have to wonder, how long 3PP are going to have to wait to see this new revised GSL? Maybe six months to a year. I don't know too many companies that can wait that long (who have already waited a year to release 4th Edition) just to see this new license.


W00t! Maybe now a sliver, nay, a speck, of hope, for Pathfinder 4e?

Yeah, I doubt it too, but still the possibility of a fair GSL is exciting.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Dragonklaw82 wrote:

W00t! Maybe now a sliver, nay, a speck, of hope, for Pathfinder 4e?

Yeah, I doubt it too, but still the possibility of a fair GSL is exciting.

Pathfinder 4e will probably be the sign that Paizo's about to go under.


Hooray!

Scarab Sages

Dennis da Ogre wrote:
In my eyes, this is one more sign that Wizards is listening to the fans. Might be a bit late though.

A bit like neglecting to go to the dentist until you have a tooth pain, as far as I'm concerned. Two steps behind, one step forward, from my POV. Too little, too late.


The Red Death wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
In my eyes, this is one more sign that Wizards is listening to the fans. Might be a bit late though.
A bit like neglecting to go to the dentist until you have a tooth pain, as far as I'm concerned. Two steps behind, one step forward, from my POV. Too little, too late.

Look, WotC could have easily gone and responded to the 3PP's complaints with a stern "Screw off, it's our game," and gone on to make huge amounts of money on their own, which it looks like they're already poised to do. But instead they appear to have said "You're right, 3rd-party publishers do help drive innovation and it's a shame to effectively prevent them from building on what we've done. We'll work on making it right."

Assuming they make some really significant changes to the GSL that makes it more hospitable to 3PPs (and I don't see why they wouldn't, since otherwise they wouldn't bother changing it), we should start to see a few of those 3PPs who said "We'll make 4e products when they fix the GSL," come around almost immediately.

Others will take longer, sure, and some (like Paizo) may even end up sticking with their own system despite the changes. But all in all, this is good for the industry.

Scarab Sages

Scott Betts wrote:
But all in all, this is good for the industry.

Oh surely. When you think 4E is a good thing, and when you are convinced that WotC is the only thing that can tract the entire industry. It's the culture of the status quo.

WotC is making mistakes and silly decisions, one after the other, and people just get behind because they say "oops" a bit later, because they are the leader of the market, and because they own the D&D brand. Period.

I disagree with it. I'm personally done trying to find any subtlety or good spirit in WotC's hit-and-miss decision-making process. They are doing this right now because it makes corporate, PR sense. Not because they're "good people" (whether they are or not, it doesn't matter).

But hey, I'm not one of the third party publishers interested in publishing 4E in the first place. So they don't give a damn about my opinion.

Like you might not yourself. I'm fine with that.

Sovereign Court

Scott Betts wrote:
But all in all, this is good for the industry.

I'm waiting to read it and hear reactions, but I'd tend to agree.

Anything that could provide 3rd parties with 4E revenue opportunities with less risk to their current product lines would be goodness for them and the industry.

As well, if the 3rd parties could more easily leverage their current/future IP (Content) for multiple editions of the game that's also goodness from a manpower standpoint.

We'll have to wait and see but I'm cautiously optomistic. Heck, it's already clear that it won't be worse. :-)

And as well, speculating on what Paizo might or might not do before anything concrete is out really isn't useful. They will produce great products (as usual) that their fans demand. If the new GSL/SRD appear to allow 4E products from Paizo and they see a business case for it, I'm sure they'll take a look, because they're smart cookies.

Shadow Lodge

I'm cautiously optimistic. Hell, honestly? I like 4e. It's different, and it takes some getting used to, but I like it. My main complaints have largely been with two things...the GSL itself, which was too restrictive, and their heavy-handed and clumsy treatment of the Forgotten Realms setting, a setting which I've loved and played in for years. As someone who hopes to get their foot in the door in the RPG design industry, and who has plenty of ideas for their own things, I look forward to the revisions to the GSL. Maybe then I can try to implement some of my ideas with this new system without worry that bad things will happen. Of course, that doesn't mean bad things would have happened before, but in all honesty I wasn't wanting to take the risk that it could. Call me pessimistic in that regard, I suppose.


The Red Death wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
But all in all, this is good for the industry.
Oh surely. When you think 4E is a good thing, and when you are convinced that WotC is the only thing that can tract the entire industry. It's the culture of the status quo.

What a cynical attitude. I will likely never use 4e... but I follow it to some extent because it's an extension of the game that I learned to love. This is good for the industry as a whole, no one loses here.

About the only negative I can see here is that perhaps a few less 3PP will publish stuff for Pathfinder RPG, but as a whole this will help the entire industry.

Of course the assumption here is that the new GSL will be enough of an improvement to lure some of the publishers over to 4e which is not entirely clear. If it turns out that the next version of the GSL is only trivially different then it won't make a difference.

Liberty's Edge

The Red Death wrote:

Oh surely. When you think 4E is a good thing, and when you are convinced that WotC is the only thing that can tract the entire industry. It's the culture of the status quo.

WotC is making mistakes and silly decisions, one after the other, and people just get behind because they say "oops" a bit later, because they are the leader of the market, and because they own the D&D brand. Period.

State of today's culture, I'm afraid.

Dark Archive

Way I look at it unless that part of the GSL which states they can change it at any point to pretty much whatever they like isent removed then any revision will be for naught.


The Red Death wrote:
A bit like neglecting to go to the dentist until you have a tooth pain, as far as I'm concerned. Two steps behind, one step forward, from my POV. Too little, too late.

I definitely think it's too late. They have seriously shafted their 3PP with the GSL and in particular waiting so long to release it to the public. Wizards really needs to get with the program here and start working on a more reasonable time schedule. Third party publishers are either going out of business or supporting other platforms.

Scarab Sages

Dennis da Ogre wrote:
What a cynical attitude.

It is. I must point out that my cynicism about anything WotC is not of my sole making, however. Digital Dungeon & Dragon mags, DDI itself, the GSL, 4E, Gleemax... all this and more participated to my current feelings on the issue.


Nameless wrote:
This is very good news! A step in the right direction for WotC.

I'd like to wait to see the new GSL before giving them kudos. Remember the old Viking saying that you never praise any day till sunset, any beer till drunk, any river till crossed and any maiden till she's become your wife.


Thank god. This *might* solve one of my biggest problems with 4E. Let's see what they come up with.


Well that was a good game of chicken. Looks like crow is on the menu tonight over at the Wizards of the Coast commissary.


The Red Death wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
What a cynical attitude.
It is. I must point out that my cynicism about anything WotC is not of my sole making, however. Digital Dungeon & Dragon mags, DDI itself, the GSL, 4E, Gleemax... all this and more participated to my current feelings on the issue.

Maybe cynical isn't the correct word. I am cynical of everything that comes out of WotC. In particular I am suspicious that the license will be a long time coming and not really be a significant improve.

You on the other hand suggest that Wizards improving their license will be bad for the industry or at best neutral. That's beyond normal cynicism and maybe borderline paranoia.


Yeah... "Wotc played chicken with 3rd party publishers and lost."

That about sums it up.

Scarab Sages

Dennis da Ogre wrote:
You on the other hand suggest that Wizards improving their license will be bad for the industry or at best neutral. That's beyond normal cynicism and maybe borderline paranoia.

It isn't paranoia.

I do believe that 4E is a bad thing on the long term. I believe that WotC is not the only pony that could tract the RPG industry or carry the D&D brand. I believe in RPGs as craft works, not assembly line products. I believe that editions after editions of D&D shouldn't be a panacea for a lack of sales. I don't believe in the status quo we've got now. That doesn't make me paranoid, but someone who has a radically different opinion than most here.

I have no problem with it.

Scarab Sages

Definitely points to a change in image marketing, since they are not obligated by the GSL to announce revisions. This means they've noticed the backlash and are acting to address it. The question is how far they are willing to go.

To be honest, I don't really care too much anymore either way. I'm not purchasing from them.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Gee, this would have been welcome news a year ago.

Now? Well, let's just wait and see what changes are in store.

For anyone wondering about our plans for Pathfinder: FULL SPEED AHEAD!

Scarab Sages

Erik Mona wrote:

Gee, this would have been welcome news a year ago.

Now? Well, let's just wait and see what changes are in store.

For anyone wondering about our plans for Pathfinder: FULL SPEED AHEAD!

I'm throwing my coal in the furnace!

Shadow Lodge

I can't help but be hopeful about the changes. There's a large part of me that really does want to support WotC, and the new edition. Hell, I've decided to plug ahead with the changes they made to FR and just...live with it. I'll probably be happier for it, in the long run, than constantly muttering about what I think should have been. As for the Pathfinder RPG moving forward as planned, good! I love the PFRPG so far, and look forward to the final product. Hopefully, I'll be able to easily play both >_>

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

sedrorovin murghurobag wrote:

Yeah... "Wotc played chicken with 3rd party publishers and lost."

That about sums it up.

That would make sense.

Do keep in mind that these changes are likely the result of intense lobbying by the people of WoTC. The current GSL appeared to have been written by Hasbro's lawyers - and for a game like Scrabble - it might have made sense.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Erik Mona wrote:

Gee, this would have been welcome news a year ago.

Now? Well, let's just wait and see what changes are in store.

For anyone wondering about our plans for Pathfinder: FULL SPEED AHEAD!

Wasn't there a point where Paizo was on the fence about going to 4th edition? (. . . So a fair GSL and SRD then might have prevented the PathfinderRPG?)


Erik Mona wrote:

For anyone wondering about our plans for Pathfinder: FULL SPEED AHEAD!

Yay!


Erik Mona wrote:

Gee, this would have been welcome news a year ago.

Now? Well, let's just wait and see what changes are in store.

For anyone wondering about our plans for Pathfinder: FULL SPEED AHEAD!

I'm waiting by my mailbox, waiting for the Campaign and the Beta books to arrive.

They go to the top of the reading pile.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Lord Fyre wrote:


Wasn't there a point where Paizo was on the fence about going to 4th edition? (. . . So a fair GSL and SRD then might have prevented the PathfinderRPG?)

Basically, yes.

That point was over a year ago.

Oops.

--Erik

Liberty's Edge

Pete Apple wrote:

Link ...

“We recognize the important role third party publishing support plays in the success of the 4th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons. We have listened to the community and our valued colleagues...

I normally would stay clear of anything snarky, or let Leeroy do my sarcasm, but I can't resist--This is a far cry from [sic]"Some things were good [about the OGL and the work of Third Party Publishers], but a lot of things were bad...". Plus, the idea of the Company listening to fans and the lot, and then changing business policy? Here's to hoping it all works out.


Lord Fyre wrote:
Do keep in mind that these changes are likely the result of intense lobbying by the people of WoTC. The current GSL appeared to have been written by Hasbro's lawyers - and for a game like Scrabble - it might have made sense.

Yeah, people at WotC have worked with, are friends with, and play D&D with people at (probably) every 3pp. I hope the revision of the GSL eases some strains in the d20 area of roleplaying.

Scarab Sages

Erik Mona wrote:
For anyone wondering about our plans for Pathfinder: FULL SPEED AHEAD!

Good to read! :-)


Erik Mona wrote:

Gee, this would have been welcome news a year ago.

Now? Well, let's just wait and see what changes are in store.

For anyone wondering about our plans for Pathfinder: FULL SPEED AHEAD!

You'd be crazy to change your plans at this point.

I am hoping the new GSL is a little less ridiculous though. I even hold out some hope that it might allow for Paizo-produced content, but I'm not holding my breath.

Dark Archive

Lord people...There will be NO PATHFINDER 4.0!! How many ways does Erik have to say it?!

Erik are you multilingual? Perhaps saying "Paizo is committed to the Pathfinder RPG and it will not be 4.0" in swaheeli (however you spell it) would help.

WotC late as usual. D&DOnline was a no go when it should have been, release day for 4.0. And I agree, they got nothing for Gencon. This announcement is too little too late.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

BigDaddyG wrote:

Lord people...There will be NO PATHFINDER 4.0!! How many ways does Erik have to say it?!

Erik are you multilingual? Perhaps saying "Paizo is committed to the Pathfinder RPG and it will not be 4.0" in swaheeli (however you spell it) would help.

WotC late as usual. D&DOnline was a no go when it should have been, release day for 4.0. And I agree, they got nothing for Gencon. This announcement is too little too late.

We agree. a Pathfinder 4.0 is unlikely. However, given how the market shakes out, some Paizo created content for 4th Edition would be possible. (Or, even, dare I say it - Official conversions for the Pathfinder Adventure Paths?)

That said, I agree with you. This GSL change is too late to be of major help. :(

Scarab Sages

Scott Betts wrote:


But instead they appear to have said "You're right, 3rd-party publishers do help our sales figures by printing low margin items we don't really want to but are demanded by the community and it's a shame to effectively prevent them from supporting what we've done. We'll work on correcting our mistake."

I corrected your original post to make it more accurate. For someone who spends a good amount of time posting on a 3PP website, you seem to have a very skewed view of their place in the market and the degree that they are beholden to WotC.


Erik Mona wrote:

Gee, this would have been welcome news a year ago.

Now? Well, let's just wait and see what changes are in store.

To be cynical: "We're going to have an open license for third party partners Very Soon Now" WAS the news a year ago. Sigh.

Water under the burnt bridge, or whatever. I do hope that this re-opens the door to the previously planned fourth edition Necromancer material via Paizo, though. And I think that it is another testament to the strength of the OGL that the GSL is going to have to undergo yet more revision in order to compete with WotC's own license of eight years ago. If WotC wants partners rather than (more) competitors, their license needs to meet certain minimum expectations set by the OGL. Well played, Dancey.

Erik Mona wrote:
For anyone wondering about our plans for Pathfinder: FULL SPEED AHEAD!

Oh, no doubt. </omar_little>


sedrorovin murghurobag wrote:
Yeah... "Wotc played chicken with 3rd party publishers and everyone lost."

Fixed. 3PP certainly did not win in this deal. Nor did consumers.


It's like I said.
They come out with a trial balloon that people stomp on.
Then they come out with a version that addresses thoes complaints.
It is so rare that I can say I told you so.
I really did.

I just wonder why they put up with people in their organization that keep antagonizing their customers. Must be someone who inherited the name Dungeons and Dragons.

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