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And frankly, were I working for Paizo, I would be a bit ticked at your idea that they will NEVER be able to grow their business beyond where it is. That it's impossible to become THE name in the RPG industry. They can't possibly be THAT successful.
There is a big difference between growth and taking the place of the industry leader. Apple is growing but they are still a bit player in the personal computer market compared to those aligned with Microsoft.
Hrmmmm...It's not not unheard of...How about the current state of the Auto Industry. The top car manufacturers (Chevy, Ford, etc...) aren't the top car manufacturers due to losses in sales, the economy, and missteps by the companies themselves. Smaller companies have gone toe to toe with them and have won (Toyota, Honda, etc...thanks to their smaller and more efficient cars).
No comparison. The auto industry has never had a single company dominate the entire market the way WotC has. The top car manufacturers have basically been in tight competition for many many decades.
Let's see...Oh how about the airline industry? They have been hit by losses in sales, the economy, missteps by the airlines themselves (safety being the most recent screw ups). The top airlines are in trouble yet a small airline took advantage of the other airlines mistakes, made good choices and Southwest airlines ended up on top.
Southwest is not the top carrier - that would be American. The airline industry is also a poor comparison - the top carriers share similarly sized slices of the market:
American 14.6%
Southwest 12.5%
United 11.2%
Delta 10.8%
Continental 7.8%
Northwest 6.6%
US Airways 6.5%
JetBlue 4.2%
AirTran Corporation 3.0%
Alaska 2.7%
Of course I'm sure you'll step up and educate us all with your PHD in how the Automobile and Airline industry are run.
That's what the interwebz is for.
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I still believe though that it is most definitely possible for Paizo or any other 3PP to go toe to toe with WotC and win. If Paizo plays their cards right and steps up to take advantage of WotC's missteps it could happen. It's not unheard of.
One of the freedoms you have is to speculate without any business or publishing experience. Of course, other people have the freedom to tell you you're wrong.
As for the it's not unheard of, you're talking lottery odds. If you knew anything at all about the industry then you'd know that.
And there it is...the old "well if you knew anything" comment. And I suppose you have a degree in RPG Industry Business and Publishing.
Your right...people do have the right to tell me I'm wrong. Granted it's the telling me I'm wrong with Insults, insinuating that I am somehow uneducated that is the problem.
And frankly, were I working for Paizo, I would be a bit ticked at your idea that they will NEVER be able to grow their business beyond where it is. That it's impossible to become THE name in the RPG industry. They can't possibly be THAT successful.
Hrmmmm...It's not not unheard of...How about the current state of the Auto Industry. The top car manufacturers (Chevy, Ford, etc...) aren't the top car manufacturers due to losses in sales, the economy, and missteps by the companies themselves. Smaller companies have gone toe to toe with them and have won (Toyota, Honda, etc...thanks to their smaller and more efficient cars). Let's see...Oh how about the airline industry? They have been hit by losses in sales, the economy, missteps by the airlines themselves (safety being the most recent screw ups). The top airlines are in trouble yet a small airline took advantage of the other airlines mistakes, made good choices and Southwest airlines ended up on top.
Of course I'm sure you'll step up and educate us all with your PHD in how the Automobile and Airline industry are run.
I think the point he is making is that for Paizo to enjoy the market share that WotC does, would be a long shot based on early returns on 4e. By all measures available, and even from the mouth of Paizo's own publisher WotC is doing more than healthy sales of 4e. There is no reason at all to think that Paizo will unseat them when their sales are so strong. They already went into this thing at an 80% market share according to Mona. Right now I would guess Paizo doesn't even have 10% of the market. That would mean that even if Paizo were at 10% they would have to not only increase their sales by 700%, they would have to do so while taking sales from WotC. That is a monumental task. Chris Pramas touched on this, but fan interest isn't the only factor here. The major distributors, and by extension all the major book chains have no interest in the 3e market now that 4e is out. The amount of sales Paizo generates through subscriptions and FLGS sales is a pittance compared to the numbers ordered by companies like Borders, B&N, Amazon etc. To actually get the majority market share, WotC sales woudl have to decline and Paizo's own sales increase to the point those distributors want to carry Pathfinder over 4e. Since 4e sales are very strong, there is no reason for them to do that. They already have a very strong product selling like crazy. There is no reason for them to pimp Pathfinder to those big chains because 4e is working just fine.
The ability to become the big gorilla is a lot more complicated than how many fans a system has. Paizo is growing and selling their products extremely well according to everything they have said. That said, even their wildest expectations would only be a miniscule fraction of what WotC does. It isn't personal, it's just that for Paizo to become the big dog, WotC failing is far more important than Paizo succeeding. Since WotC is already seeing outstanding returns on 4e, that won't happen in the near future. The success of 4e will mean more customers for Pathfinder because the success of the product holding 80% of the market share will increase the size of the pie for EVERYONE. However, the assumption that Paizo will become the juggernaute that WotC is any time soon would require a lot of things to happen in synchrony that available data is telling us are not happening.
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How would your FLGS crash if D&D went away over night? Is that all they sell?
No, that is not all they sell. It is their top seller. If that went away then their ability to turn a profit would be dramatically decreased. Their margin will have decreased to such a degree that continued operation would be nigh impossible.
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Well following your line of logic:
This is Paizo. They make Pathfinder products and don't support 4E. Why do they have a 4E only forum, they should just close it and be done with it.
I am not trying to sound rude or anything, just curious as to why a publishing company would mantain a forum dedicated to something they don't support or have interest in.
Sarcasm aside, this is a public forum so far. I ask you Fakehealer do you like 4E? do you support 4E? if not why are you on 4E public forum? shouldn't you be on a Pathfinder only forum?
Well, I have been here awhile and "know" Fakey well from his posts. He really wasn't trying to be rude. He was asking an honest question. I don't think he was asking David to go away.
The 4e forum was established long before the game came out. It became a place to discuss 4e by all members, whether or not they planned to convert. In some cases this has led to horrendous flame wars that have left everyone hurt. In other cases this has led to fantastic conversations about the game, even with people who do not play.
Presumably the forum is for all Paizo fans that might want to discuss 4e. I don't think it is rude to ask why someone who is not interested in Paizo at this time why they are here. And I think David answered well enough. In fact, it was generally civil outside of your sarcastic comment.
As for shutting down the 4e forum. I am starting to think that is a good idea. You might be on to something.
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And frankly, were I working for Paizo, I would be a bit ticked at your idea that they will NEVER be able to grow their business beyond where it is. That it's impossible to become THE name in the RPG industry. They can't possibly be THAT successful.There is a big difference between growth and taking the place of the industry leader. Apple is growing but they are still a bit player in the personal computer market compared to those aligned with Microsoft.
Hrmmmm...It's not not unheard of...How about the current state of the Auto Industry. The top car manufacturers (Chevy, Ford, etc...) aren't the top car manufacturers due to losses in sales, the economy, and missteps by the companies themselves. Smaller companies have gone toe to toe with them and have won (Toyota, Honda, etc...thanks to their smaller and more efficient cars).No comparison. The auto industry has never had a single company dominate the entire market the way WotC has. The top car manufacturers have basically been in tight competition for many many decades.
Let's see...Oh how about the airline industry? They have been hit by losses in sales, the economy, missteps by the airlines themselves (safety being the most recent screw ups). The top airlines are in trouble yet a small airline took advantage of the other airlines mistakes, made good choices and Southwest airlines ended up on top.Southwest is not the top carrier - that would be American. The airline industry is also a poor comparison - the top carriers share similarly sized slices of the market:
American 14.6%
Southwest 12.5%
United 11.2%
Delta 10.8%
Continental 7.8%
Northwest 6.6%
US Airways 6.5%
JetBlue 4.2%
AirTran Corporation 3.0%
Alaska 2.7%Of course I'm sure you'll step up and educate us all with your PHD in how the Automobile and Airline industry are run.That's what the interwebz is for.
Tell that to the folks at Amrican and GM that are losing their jobs right now.
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Well following your line of logic:
This is Paizo. They make Pathfinder products and don't support 4E. Why do they have a 4E only forum, they should just close it and be done with it.
I am not trying to sound rude or anything, just curious as to why a publishing company would mantain a forum dedicated to something they don't support or have interest in.
Sarcasm aside, this is a public forum so far. I ask you Fakehealer do you like 4E? do you support 4E? if not why are you on 4E public forum? shouldn't you be on a Pathfinder only forum?
Well, I have been here awhile and "know" Fakey well from his posts. He really wasn't trying to be rude. He was asking an honest question. I don't think he was asking David to go away.
The 4e forum was established long before the game came out. It became a place to discuss 4e by all members, whether or not they planned to convert. In some cases this has led to horrendous flame wars that have left everyone hurt. In other cases this has led to fantastic conversations about the game, even with people who do not play.
Presumably the forum is for all Paizo fans that might want to discuss 4e. I don't think it is rude to ask why someone who is not interested in Paizo at this time why they are here. And I think David answered well enough. In fact, it was generally civil outside of your sarcastic comment.
As for shutting down the 4e forum. I am starting to think that is a good idea. You might be on to something.
I agree with everything except shutting down the 4e forum. I want 4e fans to be welcome and feel comfortable here. The complaining a small vocal group aside, there have been some great conversations about 4e that I would miss if not here. I will admit that when 4e first came out I was bitter and contributed to some of those flame wars. Now I like most others have moved on. I see some real strengths in the 4e game, and I think the fan conversions some folks are doing of the Pathfinder material for 4e are really exciting. For folks that just aren't converting to 4e (and I am not), we have PFRPG so there is no reason to continue to be upset. I want 4e to be successful and for the fans of that game to be here. If the GSL changes allow it, I am sure Paizo will produce 4e support products, although probably not in the Pathfinder line.
Either way, I want 4e folks to be able to come here and be a part of the community without having to deal with the constant flaming they seem to get. I also hope the 4e folks will stop telling the PFRPG fans that Paizo will go completely to 4e no matter what because as near as I can tell PFRPG is successful enough on its own that it doesn't have to. All that said, the constant sniping needs to stop. All gamers are welcome here and I think that should remain the case.
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How would your FLGS crash if D&D went away over night? Is that all they sell?No, that is not all they sell. It is their top seller. If that went away then their ability to turn a profit would be dramatically decreased. Their margin will have decreased to such a degree that continued operation would be nigh impossible.
Like I said...go to your store...look at how much D&D product they actually carry...ask the owner if D&D is how he pays the bills. I promise you that D&D is not what is keeping him afloat. Our biggest FLGS has 8 locations in the metroplex. They have been in business since the early 80's or so. You walk into any one of their stores they have at this moment ONE spinner of D&D material and ONE shelf of older 3.5 D&D material. Games Workshop has an entire WALL and 2 4 sided display/shelving units devoted to their product. The other 2/3's of the store is Comic Book and related merchandise (toys, books, dolls, collectables etc. etc. etc.) They have a room set aside JUST for gaming. There is usually one of 3 games going on in that room...card games, Warhammer/40K, or Battletech. I've never seen a game of D&D, or any other RPG for that matter, happening.
Like I said if an FLGS is having to survive on the sales of D&D alone...then they probably deserve to go under.
In fact, it was generally civil outside of your sarcastic comment.
So I post the exact same thing he posted and his was civil while mine was not?
Asking someone why are they are here and that they would be better at some other forum is akin to asking them to go away.
As for shutting down the 4e forum. I am starting to think that is a good idea. You might be on to something.
Yes, because that would help continue the anti-4E assumption that paizo has on other boards. Something I very well imagine is good for business.
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I think the point he is making is that for Paizo to enjoy the market share that WotC does, would be a long shot based on early returns on 4e. By all measures available, and even from the mouth of Paizo's own publisher WotC is doing more than healthy sales of 4e. There is no reason at all to think that Paizo will unseat them when their sales are so strong. They already went into this thing at an 80% market share according to Mona. Right now I would guess Paizo doesn't even have 10% of the market. That would mean that even if Paizo were at 10% they would have to not only increase their sales by 700%, they would have to do so while taking sales from WotC. That is a monumental task. Chris Pramas touched on this, but fan interest isn't the only factor here. The major distributors, and by extension all the major book chains have no interest in the 3e market now that 4e is out. The amount of sales Paizo generates through subscriptions and FLGS sales is a pittance compared to the numbers ordered by companies like Borders, B&N, Amazon etc. To actually get the majority market share, WotC sales woudl have to decline and Paizo's own sales increase to the point those distributors want to carry Pathfinder over 4e. Since 4e sales are very strong, there is no reason for them to do that. They already have a very strong product selling like crazy. There is no reason for them to pimp Pathfinder to those big chains because 4e is working just fine.
The ability to become the big gorilla is a lot more complicated than how many fans a system has. Paizo is growing and selling their products extremely well according to everything they have said. That said, even their wildest expectations would only be a miniscule fraction of what WotC does. It isn't personal, it's just that for Paizo to become the big dog, WotC failing is far more important than Paizo succeeding. Since WotC is already seeing outstanding returns on 4e, that won't happen in the near future. The success of 4e will mean more customers for Pathfinder because the success of the product holding 80% of the market share will increase the size of the pie for EVERYONE. However, the assumption that Paizo will become the juggernaute that WotC is any time soon would require a lot of things to happen in synchrony that available data is telling us are not happening.
Thank you for the civil reply. I agree with all of this BUT again it's not impossible for Paizo to become the gorilla. I'm not expecting it to happen over night. I know it would be a long and difficult crawl but I do believe that Paizo is capable of doing so. Slow and steady wins the race.
Now...back to the topic at hand. There have been so many posts I've lost track of one I wanted to comment on earlier...something about employees at WotC influencing the GSL change. How much of the change is WotC Employees and how much of it was the 3PPs saying "No Way"?
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Come on guys. This is getting far to snipy. Noone here should be telling others they have to leave. I'm sure that Paizo wants all the members of this community to feel welcome no matter what game they play or support. This constant flame war every time 4e is even talked about, and in the 4e forum no less, is getting ridiculous. The change of the GSL is positive news, but from the tone of this thread you would think WotC had already announced 5e and had found a way to legally force the entirety of the gaming world to burn everything they own and fork over $5000 just to get the chance to buy 5e. It's silly. The change of the GSL would be a very good thing for ALL gaming fans. Because anything that makes the entire industry healthy is going to be good for everyone involved in gaming from companies, to fans, to "flaming ass metrics" of product. This shouldn't be this ugly in terms of how we are treating each other. Enough is enough.
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So I post the exact same thing he posted and his was civil while mine was not?
Asking someone why are they are here and that they would be better at some other forum is akin to asking them to go away.
Okay. You said, specifically in your post that you were being sarcastic. I am only going on by what you have said. You admitted to being confrontational so trying to step back and say "Oh, double standard" doesn't really make much sense.
I don't think FakeHealer was really asking him to go away. He said he was not trying to be rude but was asking an honest question. I take what he said at face value much in the way I take what you said at face value.
Yes, because that would help continue the anti-4E assumption that paizo has on other boards. Something I very well imagine is good for business.
I was simply agreeing with you. What does it take to make you happy?
(By the way, that was sarcasm).
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Come on guys. This is getting far to snipy. Noone here should be telling others they have to leave. I'm sure that Paizo wants all the members of this community to feel welcome no matter what game they play or support. This constant flame war every time 4e is even talked about, and in the 4e forum no less, is getting ridiculous. The change of the GSL is positive news, but from the tone of this thread you would think WotC had already announced 5e and had found a way to legally force the entirety of the gaming world to burn everything they own and fork over $5000 just to get the chance to buy 5e. It's silly. The change of the GSL would be a very good thing for ALL gaming fans. Because anything that makes the entire industry healthy is going to be good for everyone involved in gaming from companies, to fans, to flaming ass metrics of product. This shouldn't be this ugly in terms of how we are treating each other. Enough is enough.
See this isn't healthy though. There is a pretty big wound in the industry between the publishers as well as between the gamers. I don't think it will be healed any time soon (or ever?). WotC made this. Now they are trying to fix it. I just don't think it can be fixed no matter what the new GSL says. It's unfortunate.
Like I said if an FLGS is having to survive on the sales of D&D alone...then they probably deserve to go under.But, consider . . .
- The current U.S. economy is in distress. This is forcing people to make serious cut-backs in discretionary spending. That number includes RPG players. :(
- Brick & Mortor stores were having difficulties before the economy started having issues.
- Gaming & Comic shops [and hobby stores in general] tend to be pretty low margin businesses even in the best of times.
Okay. You said, specifically in your post that you were being sarcastic. I am only going on by what you have said. You admitted to being confrontational so trying to step back and say "Oh, double standard" doesn't really make much sense.I don't think FakeHealer was really asking him to go away. He said he was not trying to be rude but was asking an honest question. I take what he said at face value much in the way I take what you said at face value.
Okay I will accept that you really belive what he said was not rude nor civil. I'll mark that as a description of your character.
Yes, because that would help continue the anti-4E assumption that paizo has on other boards. Something I very well imagine is good for business.
I was simply agreeing with you. What does it take to make you happy?
(By the way, that was sarcasm).
Some cookie on cookie action.
He said he was not trying to be rude but was asking an honest question.
I love it when people say, "I am not trying to be rude or anything, but [followed by a statement/question that makes it clear they are trying to be rude]." It is just funny when you think about it.
See this isn't healthy though. There is a pretty big wound in the industry between the publishers as well as between the gamers. I don't think it will be healed any time soon (or ever?). WotC made this. Now they are trying to fix it. I just don't think it can be fixed no matter what the new GSL says. It's unfortunate.
That's a pretty defeatist actittude to take.
This not WOTC fault, its just nerdrage.
GSL has nothing to do with this, and by revising it they are not trying to heal anything.
It is just a business decision.
As for when will it end, well that depends on when the forumites(or is that forumers?), stirring up trouble just because they cant stand a new edition, decide to stop.
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Come on guys. This is getting far to snipy. Noone here should be telling others they have to leave. I'm sure that Paizo wants all the members of this community to feel welcome no matter what game they play or support. This constant flame war every time 4e is even talked about, and in the 4e forum no less, is getting ridiculous. The change of the GSL is positive news, but from the tone of this thread you would think WotC had already announced 5e and had found a way to legally force the entirety of the gaming world to burn everything they own and fork over $5000 just to get the chance to buy 5e. It's silly. The change of the GSL would be a very good thing for ALL gaming fans. Because anything that makes the entire industry healthy is going to be good for everyone involved in gaming from companies, to fans, to flaming ass metrics of product. This shouldn't be this ugly in terms of how we are treating each other. Enough is enough.See this isn't healthy though. There is a pretty big wound in the industry between the publishers as well as between the gamers. I don't think it will be healed any time soon (or ever?). WotC made this. Now they are trying to fix it. I just don't think it can be fixed no matter what the new GSL says. It's unfortunate.
I agree that there is a wound, but I don't think continually picking at it will make it better either. If there weren't alternatives available for people who don't want to convert to 4e, then I would understand it a bit better. But as it is, PFRPG is here and here to stay. It is a great product made by a great company that is doing everything it can to reasonably make the game that the folks who feel hurt by 4e want. The initial anger on release and all the bad feelings that went with it is totally understandable as an initial response. Losing a favorite game or even setting can be like the loss of a loved one. I totally understand that. But just like grieving for a loved one, eventually we have to move on. More to the point, those hurt feelings and ongoing anger are contributing fuel to a fire that isn't actually changing anything. All the anger in the world won't change the success of 4e or the fun being had by those playing it. So being hurt about it only really causes pain for the folks who didn't want a change. If a persons recreational hobby causes them that much grief over a long period of time, then something is seriously wrong. Games are supposed to be fun.
I don't think fixing the GSL is intended to be a salve for the wound that the anti 4e crowd feels. Rather, it is a change to protect the health of the entire industry. It is the decision that should have been made from the beginning. It wasn't, so the only thing they can do is try to fix it now. That is a step in the right direction. Regardless of what is happening at the corporate level though, there is no reason for gamers to unleash such anger on each other. I don't go around lashing out at people that play a different version of monopoly than me or who have an XBox 360 instead of a Wii. It's time for us all to be friends again and let it go.
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Okay I will accept that you really belive what he said was not rude nor civil. I'll mark that as a description of your character.
Remarkably naive and hopeful. <grin>
I just don't think he really meant it as a request to go away. I know how it can be read. Maybe he did mean it that way. I would like to think he didn't based off of what I know about his posting history.
Ack! What has become of us?!?!? :)
Some cookie on cookie action.
How naughty.
And yet intriguing. I would like to see some of this cookie on cookie action.
As for when will it end, well that depends on when the forumites(or is that forumers?), stirring up trouble just because they cant stand a new edition, decide to stop.
To be fair and honest, there is equal amount of "stirring up" going on by people who can't stand people not liking a new edition. There is equal stirring going on from all sides, and to claim otherwise is to run with blinders on.
My Youth Theatre kids do that all the time: "No offence but..."
Now when they start that I cut in with, "I'm preparing to be offended. choose your next words wisely."
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He said he was not trying to be rude but was asking an honest question.I love it when people say, "I am not trying to be rude or anything, but [followed by a statement/question that makes it clear they are trying to be rude]." It is just funny when you think about it.
Hrm....I understand.
Sometimes I say that right before I ask a question that can be quite rude only because 1) I am being straightforward and I want to make sure it is understand I am not trying to be confrontational or 2) because I can't think of a nice way to phrase the question I am asking.
Perhaps that means I shouldn't be asking the question at all. :)
I know that sounds odd, but there you go. It can be used disingenuously but I am not sure it is always meant that way.
Maybe I do live in my own little world.
To be fair and honest, there is equal amount of "stirring up" going on by people who can't stand people not liking a new edition. There is equal stirgin going on from all sides, and to claim otherwise is to run with blinders on.
As for when will it end, well that depends on when the forumites(or is that forumers?), stirring up trouble just because they cant stand a new edition, decide to stop.
I agree completely Ixan, but how many from the other side have you seen crossing over into Pathfinder or even 3E forums to 'stirr up trouble'?
I agree completely Ixan, but how many from the other side have you seen crossing over into Pathfinder or even 3E forums to 'stirr up trouble'?
Quite frankly from what I've seen, just as many as I have seen in the 4e forums ... and frequently, it is the exact same people.
Like I said if an FLGS is having to survive on the sales of D&D alone...then they probably deserve to go under.But, consider . . .So, now would not be a good time to ask them to try to survive the collapse of a major product line.
- The current U.S. economy is in distress. This is forcing people to make serious cut-backs in discretionary spending. That number includes RPG players. :(
- Brick & Mortor stores were having difficulties before the economy started having issues.
- Gaming & Comic shops [and hobby stores in general] tend to be pretty low margin businesses even in the best of times.
Well I dont think most of successful stores see DD as a major product line. Least none I go too (this could just be the region Im in). They all find it way too unreliable product for the return. Sides for all intensive purposes DD was dead for over half a year before 4e came out.
Pathfinder 4e will probably be the sign that Paizo's about to go under.W00t! Maybe now a sliver, nay, a speck, of hope, for Pathfinder 4e?
Yeah, I doubt it too, but still the possibility of a fair GSL is exciting.
I respectfully disagree. In fact, I'd love to see 4e supported by Paizo in addition to their own Pathfinder games. Of course, the new GSL would have to be radically different for that to happen, but I guess we'll see.
For me, this is potential good news. I am a fan of Paizo, but...I play 4e. Obviously with the split, it unfortunately left Pazio behind for me because nothing they have went to 4e.
With the whole GSL issue, it appears to have also left my other favorite writer behind Nicolas Logue from Sinister Adventures.
I'd love to purchase 4e material from both of them. If the revised GSL makes any right step in that process, I will be happy.
As for Pathfinder. I am not against it in anyway, but because it remains at 3.5, or 3.75 for those of you calling it such, it will always remain out of my vision.
That however, doesn't mean Pazio or Sinister Adventures have to.
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I agree completely Ixan, but how many from the other side have you seen crossing over into Pathfinder or even 3E forums to 'stirr up trouble'?
In all fairness, If he is like many of us, we dont look in the 4e forums, but instead look at the recently posted titles on the left of the screen of the message boards and it doesnt tell you what forum the title is from.
Many times Ive seen an interesting title, gone in and posted; and after the fact realized I was saying anti-4e things in the 4e forum. All I can say, is please understand, most of us aren't getting on anyone else who wants to play and likes 4e. Heck I don't like the World of Darkness Games either.:D
But expressing why we dislike it is as much our right as it is the the right of the folks to say why they like it. The issue comes from people who feel they have to argue that your opinion is wrong, and demand you to substantiate why you have your opinion...from either side of the house.
So I don't think its to stir up trouble. ;)
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WotC is releasing the Forgotten Realms campaign setting hardcover at Gen Con, and they will sell a flaming metric assload of them.
Of course, of wotC books only Star Wars sells -metric- assloads. What Erik -meant- here was a burning imperial assload (BIA), the American rpg standard of runaway success.
Heck I don't like the World of Darkness Games either.:D
Wait. Are you talking about old WoD or new WoD? Cuz old Mage was great but new Mage blows.
<waits for fishes .......>
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I respectfully disagree. In fact, I'd love to see 4e supported by Paizo in addition to their own Pathfinder games. Of course, the new GSL would have to be radically different for that to happen, but I guess we'll see.Pathfinder 4e will probably be the sign that Paizo's about to go under.W00t! Maybe now a sliver, nay, a speck, of hope, for Pathfinder 4e?
Yeah, I doubt it too, but still the possibility of a fair GSL is exciting.
Well, if it contains a "We're really, really, reeeeeeeeeeeally sorry about the whole magazine debacle, please write stuff for our mechanics!" clause...
Heck I don't like the World of Darkness Games either.:D
Wait. Are you talking about old WoD or new WoD? Cuz old Mage was great but new Mage blows.
<waits for fishes .......>
Dude. That discussion is a worthy topic for its own thread. But let's not threadjack this one. :)
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I agree that there is a wound, but I don't think continually picking at it will make it better either. If there weren't alternatives available for people who don't want to convert to 4e, then I would understand it a bit better. But as it is, PFRPG is here and here to stay. It is a great product made by a great company that is doing everything it can to reasonably make the game that the folks who feel hurt by 4e want. The initial anger on release and all the bad feelings that went with it is totally understandable as an initial response. Losing a favorite game or even setting can be like the loss of a loved one. I totally understand that. But just like grieving for a loved one, eventually we...Come on guys. This is getting far to snipy. Noone here should be telling others they have to leave. I'm sure that Paizo wants all the members of this community to feel welcome no matter what game they play or support. This constant flame war every time 4e is even talked about, and in the 4e forum no less, is getting ridiculous. The change of the GSL is positive news, but from the tone of this thread you would think WotC had already announced 5e and had found a way to legally force the entirety of the gaming world to burn everything they own and fork over $5000 just to get the chance to buy 5e. It's silly. The change of the GSL would be a very good thing for ALL gaming fans. Because anything that makes the entire industry healthy is going to be good for everyone involved in gaming from companies, to fans, to flaming ass metrics of product. This shouldn't be this ugly in terms of how we are treating each other. Enough is enough.See this isn't healthy though. There is a pretty big wound in the industry between the publishers as well as between the gamers. I don't think it will be healed any time soon (or ever?). WotC made this. Now they are trying to fix it. I just don't think it can be fixed no matter what the new GSL says. It's unfortunate.
Oh yeah I agree with ya there as well. Granted my only beef at this point are the snarky comments from certain posters concerning my opinion about the future of the RPG industry. Insinuations that I'm somehow uneducated and have no idea what I'm talking about. Well how do I know they know what they are talking about?
I think my main issue is that WotC got to be the gorilla because of MtG and Hasbro. D&D came after the fact. My opinion is that I think it's silly that 3PPs should have to "Bow Down" to WotC just because they're WotC and D&D. Yes there are many companies that benefited from the OGL and wouldn't be here initially if not for it. BUT several of these companies have a quality product and quality customer relations and would do well even without WotC. And my personal belief is that WotC figured that out and that's why the change to the GSL. Perhaps they feel they need the 3PPs more than the 3PPs seem to think they need WotC.
Dude. That discussion is a worthy topic for its own thread. But let's not threadjack this one. :)Heck I don't like the World of Darkness Games either.:D
Wait. Are you talking about old WoD or new WoD? Cuz old Mage was great but new Mage blows.
<waits for fishes .......>
And we have a nibble!
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FWIW, a flaming metric assload is one assload of kilograms squared.
WotC is releasing the Forgotten Realms campaign setting hardcover at Gen Con, and they will sell a flaming metric assload of them.
My take was:
Flaming: hot, onfire, in excess of expectation, a whole bunch, many, lots
Metric: measurement of business performance. As in, what do the metrics say?
Assload: depends on personal capacity, but I think teh core point ehre is that and assload would certainly feel like a lot.
This just seems relavent so I thought I'd throw it out here.
I'll chime in with a few things.
Q) Is the timing of this announcement in any way related to GenCon happening later this week?
A) Why yes. Linae and I wanted to actually release the changes to the license prior to the show but when it became clear that wasn't going to happen we decided to make the announcement of our intentions to stem off questions regarding the license.
Q) Is the GSL going to have significant changes?
A) We hope so. If the changes we recommended go through they will be significant.
Q) Am I going to like the changes?
A) I think many people will be happy. It probably won't please everyone but if the changes we recommended go through the license we appeal to a lot more people.
Q) Why should we trust you?
A) You probably shouldn't. As the saying goes "seeing is believing" but know that our intentions are to make the license more user friendly. The proof of our efforts will be in the final output so I would hope for the best but maintain a certain level of skepticism.
Q) Is Clark Peterson a payed shill or something?
A) No, but we value Clark's insight and opinion and want to see publishers like Necromancer make 4th edition compatible supplements.
Q) Is this going to take 6 months (or longer) to release like the last time?
A) I sure hope not. Our legal team has told us they will work on it next week but we are not committing to a time line as those things often shift.
See it for yourself here!
I'm just curious but I thought I would ask, you don't like Pathfinder Setting, you are a fan of 4E and, as far as I can tell, you don't like the Pathfinder RPG. Why are you here? This is Paizo. They make Pathfinder products and don't support 4E. It sounds like you should be over at WOTC's site judging by your preferences. I am not trying to sound rude or anything, I am just curious as to why someone would frequent a gaming site that they don't support or have interest in?
I'm just curious, you are a fan of Pathfinder RPG, you obviously can't stand 4e. Why are you here? This is the 4e board. Did it ever occur to you that if Paizo didn't want people here and discussing 4e that they would... you know... not have a 4e board?
Anaxxius is here most likely because he likes the Pathfinder Adventure Paths and other Pathfinder materials. Makes a lot more sense to me than someone who can't stand 4e being on the 4e boards.
This just seems relavent so I thought I'd throw it out here.
Thanks David!
Q) Why should we trust you?
A) You probably shouldn't. As the saying goes "seeing is believing" but know that our intentions are to make the license more user friendly. The proof of our efforts will be in the final output so I would hope for the best but maintain a certain level of skepticism.
Seems that Rouse knows the audience has gotten pretty skeptical... maybe this is a good sign?
I'm just curious but I thought I would ask, you don't like Pathfinder Setting, you are a fan of 4E and, as far as I can tell, you don't like the Pathfinder RPG. Why are you here? This is Paizo. They make Pathfinder products and don't support 4E. It sounds like you should be over at WOTC's site judging by your preferences. I am not trying to sound rude or anything, I am just curious as to why someone would frequent a gaming site that they don't support or have interest in?I'm just curious, you are a fan of Pathfinder RPG, you obviously can't stand 4e. Why are you here? This is the 4e board. Did it ever occur to you that if Paizo didn't want people here and discussing 4e that they would... you know... not have a 4e board?
Anaxxius is here most likely because he likes the Pathfinder Adventure Paths and other Pathfinder materials. Makes a lot more sense to me than someone who can't stand 4e being on the 4e boards.
I'm just curious. Why is anybody who just wants to argue with no true desire to come to a conclusion here? Wouldn't you be happier starting your own threads entitled "I'm right; you're wrong" or "why nobody likes talking to me"?
Because Dennis, we have a small piece of paper in this country called the Constitution, which allows us to express our rights under its First Amendment. I for one think 4E is horrible. But does that mean I can't chime in from time to time on issues involving it? I think not. It seems to me that the most hateful people on these boards are those trying to defend, unsuccessfully I might add, 4E. "Stop saying bad things about 4E!" "I dont want to see the writing on the wall!"
Bandit of LV
Quite welcome Dennis! I'll admit, the first post I read by you gave me a rather negative impression of you (I don't even recall what you wrote though!) but since then you've proven that first impression repeatedly wrong. :)
As for The Rouse, I believe he tried VERY hard to make the GSL as open and welcoming as he could, and took a pretty big hit to the value of his word when it came out and it was as it is now. I think he is basicly trying to hedge his bets/acknowledge that he has said similar things in the past and it didn't turn out too well before. Hopefully, this time some of the higher ups will listen! :)
Bandit, while the Constitution does give you the right to free speech in public, remember we discuss currently on Paizo's private property. If they say we can't say something here, them's the rules.
Of course, they (and I) prefer free speech and all, and I can think of barely a handful of times they've ever censored anyone on their boards. Just making clear that the first amendment isn't going to help anyone out re: who can say what.
Cheers! :)
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I'm just curious. Why is anybody who just wants to argue with no true desire to come to a conclusion here? Wouldn't you be happier starting your own threads entitled "I'm right; you're wrong" or "why nobody likes talking to me"?I'm just curious but I thought I would ask, you don't like Pathfinder Setting, you are a fan of 4E and, as far as I can tell, you don't like the Pathfinder RPG. Why are you here? This is Paizo. They make Pathfinder products and don't support 4E. It sounds like you should be over at WOTC's site judging by your preferences. I am not trying to sound rude or anything, I am just curious as to why someone would frequent a gaming site that they don't support or have interest in?I'm just curious, you are a fan of Pathfinder RPG, you obviously can't stand 4e. Why are you here? This is the 4e board. Did it ever occur to you that if Paizo didn't want people here and discussing 4e that they would... you know... not have a 4e board?
Anaxxius is here most likely because he likes the Pathfinder Adventure Paths and other Pathfinder materials. Makes a lot more sense to me than someone who can't stand 4e being on the 4e boards.
there is one already...
Ah right ... sorry! I guess I just haven't seen anyone post there in a while. Thanks.
Now, could everyone who wants to argue and whine please go there.
there is one already...Ah right ... sorry! I guess I just haven't seen anyone post there in a while. Thanks.
Now, could everyone who wants to argue and whine please go there.
That would cause the rest of the forum to empty out quickly.
That would cause the rest of the forum to empty out quickly.there is one already...Ah right ... sorry! I guess I just haven't seen anyone post there in a while. Thanks.
Now, could everyone who wants to argue and whine please go there.
Wouldn't that be a good thing? I'm tired of my shoes getting ruined by people trying to mark their (virtual) territory.
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See it for yourself here!
Thanks for finding this. I found Rouse's and Lidda's replies to be interesting.
Too often folks define "WotC" as this faceless corporate entity. Sounds like it's clear that just like any other medium-large company you gots internal battles you sometimes win and sometimes lose -- you do the best you can then put on your game face for the outside world. Been there, done that, got the "Microsoft Bob" T-shirt.
Sounds like they made their case on the issues with the GSL/SRD and finally got traction on it. It would be amusing to know how many of them said "we told you so" but can't actually state that externally.
-Pete
Wouldn't that be a good thing? I'm tired of my shoes getting ruined by people trying to mark their (virtual) territory.
But, it would be awefully quiet.