SJ@'s 4Experience

[Neil Spicer]

Dreamer wrote:

I'm just wondering -- perhaps from others' perspectives -- what's the point of this game? Is there an objective? How do you know when you're doing well or if you've won? And what keeps you going when it goes flat?

The number one objective is to have fun. But that's defined in different ways according to each players' tastes.

Much like you (I suspect), I'm more interested in the storytelling and roleplaying than the mechanics. I could care less if Ceelie uses Sly Flourish over Piercing Strike. The "color" of those attacks can be explained in the course of the roleplay. And it really doesn't matter to me that Zieke has Craft points he can spend to create magic items between adventures. All I really need is an avenue in which to develop his abilities or resources at the appropriate moment in the story. So I'm perfectly fine with a DM assessing Zieke and determining what fits best as a treasure for him to find.

Now having said that, a roleplaying game wouldn't be a "game" if there weren't some sort of mechanics and rules for defining success or failure of intended actions. This isn't just a storytelling exercise. Or, maybe a better way of saying it is that RPGs via PbP are a little more like "Choose Your Own Adventure"...where you select a certain course of action and then deal with the consequences. We just happen to roll dice for that part. And, we're each better prepared to perform certain actions over others based on the choices we've made while advancing our characters.

Aside from that, I feel like "success" within the game is based on my character's ability to navigate the storyline of an adventure. I want to ensure he (or she) contributes meaningfully to the plot. And I want the experiences that arise from the outcomes of all the characters' combined actions to affect my character in a way that demonstrates growth or change over the course of the adventure. If the game enables me to vicariously carry out a part of that character's life as he or she morphs into a true hero, then I'm having fun.

So what do I do when things go flat? Well, the easiest answer is that I move on to another game. What usually makes a game go flat? Burn out from the DM or players. Real-life pulling too many players away at once. Inattentive players. Different playing styles that don't mesh well with what I outlined above. Character concepts that stretch the bounds of what I imagine a typical medieval fantasy story should contain.

But it's more difficult for me to let go of a game that's starting to go flat when I know the other players share my playing style. It's very hard to find a group that just clicks together...with similar goals and objectives in telling the story of a particular adventure. So once I've found that, I'll stick to it and push through any other distractions in order to maintain the playing group. How? Patience, mostly. Reassurance. Support for one another. Even a temporary break if it allows folks to recharge after they've gotten burned out.

Hope that helps,
--Neil

[FabesMinis]

How do I win? I win by defeating evil, by solving mysteries, by getting new toys. :D I like a good story but I really enjoy the mechanics aspect and using abilities and whatnot.

I agree that if a game has gone stale, I will often go to a new one. But as is the case with ROTRL, I feel that pressures on people have got to a stage where they can't be ignored, which may contribute to a feeling of burn-out.

The Elsir Vale game had a lot of potential too. I am loving it as Kriv.

[Ragadolf]

Hm.
Good questions Dreamer,

For me, the game has always been about having fun. Having the adventures I'd always read about or seen in the movies. Getting to be somebody, or someTHING, That I just can't really be in real life. A great warrior or powerful wizard. (I do especially luv the magic!) It developed into just spending time with my friends, having fun together. My college buddies and I have spent MANY hours, playing many different games. Some we returned to, some we never touched again. BUt we had a great time all the same.

As mentioned above, everyone's idea of fun is different. I know people that would have quit if they even had to PRETEND to figure out a magically locked doorway. They prefer the 'Hack-n-Slash' adventures. Others can't live without the intellectual challenge of a fiendish puzzle-trap. I happen to fit squarely inbetween those two. I enjoy the fights, I enjoy the puzzles, but a balance, not too much of either.

If you hadn't figured it out by now, I'm a frustrated performer. ;P Games give me my chance to act out (Literally and figuratively). And the fact that the rules mean that the hero COULD die makes it exciting when facing a challenging foe. I have lost a few characters. (Not as many as I could have, I never have gotten to play as much as I would like!) And there have been one or two I didn't really want to give up, And I have played the exact same character again in another game/world/etc. Sometimes I didn't even bother changing the name! ;D

So, In short, I enjoy getting to 'perform', I enjoy the fantasy elements of the game. (I love spells, magic, etc, again, something I can't be in real life, like tall and handsome! ;P) and I enjoy getting to spend time with my friends. Or sometimes, like at a convention, just with like-minded people that might become a friend! I enjoy getting to be creative- especially with spells. (A monster might be too powerful to be affected by a single firebolt, but if I deliberately use the firebolt to ignite the alcohol behind the bar he's using for cover,... Or I have used (earlier editions, different spell descriptions) an Enlarge spell to make a barrel of water large enough to extinguish a large fire. Did I mention that I had Levitated the barrel over the fire first? ;P )

As far as winning, well, for the most part, most of the scenarios have an 'end' to them, like blowing up the Death Star in SW IV. It wasn't the end of the campaign, but we 'won' that adventure. And I have played when we 'lost' a scenario, and had to carry on with the consequences. That can be fun as well. And don't forget the treasure! (Luv the magic = Luv the magic ITEMS!)

Ah, late. Stopping before I write another chapter to this book. Hope that gave you enough of my perspective Dreamer.

Laters~

[SJ@]

As we come down the home stretch of the short-lived Elsir Vale campaign (perhaps one-off is more correct), I'd like to make some notes about the encounter and 4E in general. Opinionated notes, to be sure. Here goes...

First, thanks for sticking with this even after it became apparent that it would be a temporary game rather than the longer campaign that it was shaping up to be. I appreciated the life you gave to your characters and am really glad that Fabes is taking over (in some fashion) after the last (Hob)goblin falls. I feel like I got a good first experience at running 4E which is what I wanted in the first place, so thanks for that as well.

Some notes on the encounter as written. It's a level 1 encounter worth 580 xp. I didn't change the number or power level of the opponents at all, I just changed the number that entered the bar during round 3. It was only supposed to be two hobgoblins with the final hobgoblin and goblin entering in round 4. The hogoblins were (of course) all minions, and the goblins were goblin blackblades. The hobgoblins storm the bar, attack patrons, light the place up, and don't really start focusing on the party until round 3--they attack whoever is in their way until then (the patrons, or human rabble).

Ridiculous.

Though I haven't looked back, I get the sense that invisible castle was rolling hot for you guys, but even taking that into account, this encounter was a yawner--an appetizer for new players to 4E or D&D in general. Inexperienced players might have struggled with this encounter, but for you guys it was a breeze (though these last two holdouts might prove me wrong). Had I anticipated this more adequately, I would've sent these guys into the bar in two waves on rounds 1 and 2, or 1 and 3, and been done with it. I would also have sent in the two goblins together--they're hampered by working seperately. Lesson(s) learned.

In terms of 4E, I'm a convert. There's just no denying that from the DM's seat, the game is less of a headache all the way around. I really thought that tracking conditions, especially on a PbP, was going to be a pain. This encounter wasn't a good example of that one way or the other, but I get the sense that it's not all that hard to keep track of things. Around a real table, I think the various suggestions in the DMG (note cards, etc.) would work just fine. Heaving a lot of that on players would also be helpful. For a PbP, there's the added advantage of being able to scroll up to previous posts to see what was what--bonus!

Similarly, I found that it was helpful (and hopefully you did too) to update the encounter map more than once a round. I think that went a long way in cutting down confusion--especially since, by mid-round, several of the chracter's positions would change.

The real difference, for me, is the darned stat-block. Holy Cow! I know it sounds silly, but I cannot say enough about how easy it is to read the new stat-blocks. I literally don't think I even refered to the stat-blocks after the first couple of (real time) days other than to jot down goblin hit points. I remember my first 3E encounter as DM--the experiences are night and day. I'd feel super-confident running a 4E campaign right now, not so with 3.5. That's kind of a big deal for me.

On the flip-side of things, I'm excited at the thought of creating a 4E character (I haven't yet, if you can believe it). I can see where an arguement can be made that there are fewer options and more limitations on flexibility in the 4E character-creation process than in 3E, but it's not something that I'm hung up on any longer. I kind of like the paring-down that has happened, but that's just a preference thing.

There's more that I could say (I haven't even talked about the new Forgotten Realms guide that I flipped through recently), but I think the bottom-line is this: I'd be happy playing a character in either edition of D&D in the future. But if I were to DM a game, it'd be a 4E game, hands-down.

Lastly, like JSL, the more I get into and understand 4E and its rules, the more dismayed I am at the direction Paizo chose to take with Pathfinder. Golarion is a very cool place that feels like it's tied to an albatros of a game system--one that seems to be getting more bloated in PfRPG rather than less. Unfortunately, I think they missed a golden opportunity. A 4E Golarion would have been so much more appealing to me than any setting I've seen (FR included) out of WoTC.

That's more than two cents, but they're my cents nevertheless.

[Dreamer]

Quick thoughts:

• I'm glad you had fun.

• Playtesting w/ JSL on a couple of 4e encounters, I learned how frustrating it can be to play the bad guys, knowing that they're supposed to get fried, but doing everything possible not to let that happen. It changed my perspective on the DM's job.

• Was the encounter supposed to be so violent? NPCs were falling right and left. And not in nice ways.

• You did a nice job on the maps.

[SJ@]

Dreamer wrote:

• Was the encounter supposed to be so violent? NPCs were falling right and left. And not in nice ways.

Thanks for the comments. The answer to the above question is "sort of" for the first part, and "I'm not sure there are nice ways for NPCs to fall" for the second. Less gratuitous, maybe, but I certainly wasn't attempting to add violence for violence('s) sake.

The encounter is basically this: the party is in a bar with eight other patrons, three of whom are playing cards at the back table, one behind the bar (they are statted-up as Human Rabble from the MM). The doors burst open and over the course of the next four rounds, 10 Hobgoblin minions and 2 goblin blackblades rush in and attack anything that moves (mostly NPCs the first two rounds until they wake up to the fact that the party is the main threat).

Read this way, no, the encounter isn't particular violent. But we took a little while to get going, so I had to put a face on these otherwise faceless NPCs. Andronsius and Jen are in the adventure (well, Jen's in the second episode of the AP, but whatever). Hess, Earod, Ellice, and Fina (and the Halfling bargemen) were all mine.

Unfortunately, when you put a face on the rabble, and the rabble are there to bite it, the violence quotient goes way up. It was an unintended consequence to trying to make the NPCs more than collateral damage and ended up playing like a Sam Peckinpah movie. Or, like Monty Python spoofing a Sam Peckinpah movie.

On the flip side, it personalizes the violence for the characters and gives them another source of motivation to get involved. I am sorry if it was over-the-top, though.

[Ragadolf]

Wait! It can't be over already!
I still have spells to cast! (Oh, wait, 4E, I don't run out of spells,...) ;P

Semi-seriously, (About the best I can manage right now,)

*Also glad that you had fun SJ@,

*I still need to read some more 4E stuff, especially combat! So no comments or questions there,

* I liked the 'personal touches' on the characters in the bar. Getting that level of detail makes it easier/funner (?) to get into character and interact with the environment. Much better than simply saying 'I order from wench X', or, 'I flirt with serving wench Y'.

Most of the time DM's (In general,) either don't have the time or energy to make the set dressing come to life like that. OR, worse, the group they game with doesn't care, they just want to get on with the attacking, so why bother? This DOES have the side effect (good, in my opinion) of making it more intimate when said set dressing gets it. I don't think it really makes it any more violent than it already is, it just makes it SEEM so. It's more intimate, more 'realistic'. (BOO, who put the realism in my fantasy?!? Just kidding!) ;)

Take for example, a GOOD, realistic, war movie, (Pick one of yours, I really don't have a favorite), and compare it to an '80's GI Joe cartoon. Same action. Same level of violence. But in the GI Joe cartoon you don't get the visual depictions of bloody wounds and flying body parts. (I don't think that Freddy Kruger would ever get watched if Hanna-Barbara did a cartoon version. What would be the point?) ;P

My just -turned 9 year old daughter has expressed an interest in Daddy's pastimes. (I'm so proud right now! My wife,... not so much.) SHe even has a toon on my one of mother-in-law's EQ2 accounts. (Yes, my MOTHER-IN-LAW gets to play EQ2, and I can't,... life is so unfair.) :( And I plan on either using the 'introductory set rules' for 3E, or the 4E rules when I get a chance to actually play with her. As both are laid out easily enough for her to follow, I think. My oft-derailed point is, I plan on using the 'GI Joe' or 'Pokemon' version of combat. I don't think that 'killing' the bad guys in visually descriptive ways will help her enjoy it any. I will replace the 'arrow through the chest' with 'ringing his helmet like a bell', etc.

*The pacing was little slower than we started out in RotRL, (Referring to the first battle, feels like, I could be wrong), but I think that's more due to RL issues from all of us than anything else. I'm barely managing to be a once-a-day poster for well over a month now! And as I am now used to the PbP format, it didn't bother me at all.

*Overall, great intro, story seems to be able to pan out over a long haul, harking back to the last couple of AP's from Dungeon (In Print). Loved the way you wrote the characters to life. And you obviously put in a lot of thought as to where you were going to take them, or at least use them, in the future adventures!

Yes, I can imagine that writing different descriptions for every NPC that jumps, dodges or bites it is a little more time consuming than writing for just your own PC! (I shudder, as you have NO idea how much time I spend in front of the PC writing for Slidell. Not sure I COULD put that kind of effort into every Tom, DIck and Larry,...) But you were obviously more than up to the challenge.

Ah, enough rambling for this morning. Were there any specific areas you wanted addressed SJ@? Or was this the sort of thing you were looking for?

I thought that your DM'ing is fine. As far as I can tell with only this brief scenario, you had the rules right, corrected others (ME!) when we were mistaken, were fair and reasonable with the rulings, were creative with the entire set, not just the monsters and PC's. (Bar catching on fire was good, but the Raider's reference brought it to life for me! But I'm the player who spends half the game sessions quoting lines from movies at the appropriate moments, and not the player who says 'we're entering the fantasy world now, NO references to Rl culture or things will be allowed!') FOr me it IS the references to things that are familiar, like adventure movies, that help me get into the game and enjoy it more. Fortunately my 'core' gaming group were all the same way. so we fed off of each other and enjoyed it to the hilt. That's the sort of thing that I try to do with Slidell and Ben, but it is a little more difficult to do in PbP.

You kept the action rolling, (As much as was possible in a PbP!) and made it interesting and fun.

I enjoyed it. And I admit that I was looking forward to it continuing. Hopefully maybe we can pick up where this left off and keep going with NSPicer or another at the helm.

I hope that you get to at least drop in occasionally for a 'virtual visit' now and then. I will miss not only your creative writing, but your various inputs and viewpoints are always good for getting my brain to wake up and actually have to THINK about something.

Thank you for finishing up the first encounter before you take your final bow. I appreciate all the effort and time you took out to do so.

Ah,... I have to go to work now, More later.

LAters,...

(EDIT-Dang, did I write all that?!?)

[Dreamer]

Ragadolf wrote:

My just -turned 9 year old daughter has expressed an interest in Daddy's pastimes....And I plan on either using the 'introductory set rules' for 3E, or the 4E rules when I get a chance to actually play with her. As both are laid out easily enough for her to follow, I think. My oft-derailed point is, I plan on using the 'GI Joe' or 'Pokemon' version of combat. I don't think that 'killing' the bad guys in visually descriptive ways will help her enjoy it any. I will replace the 'arrow through the chest' with 'ringing his helmet like a bell', etc.

It's a good idea to see what it is that will make the experience most enjoyable to her. It's not necessarily the "killing" bad guys part that's bad. In fact, there can be a greater degree of security in knowing that the nasty, evil bad guy won't be back. But it would be a good idea to monitor the level of violence and how graphic it is.

My guess (from a girl's perspective) is that she probably enjoys the storytelling, character-character interactions (and by extension, the time-with-dad interaction), finding solutions to problems, and creating a world in which to play. (If I remember correctly, nine was about the age that all my friends were designing "dream houses" -- again, creating a perfect world that met our needs.)

Things that would make it less enjoyable: high-frustration tasks (however she defines it), situations that make her feel dumb (for example, when the computer program doesn't work, a guy is more likely to blame the computer; a girl is more likely to blame herself), or where she feels personally attacked (girls tend to be more socially aggressive than physically aggressive, especially starting around 9 or 10 when the hormones start increasing in preparation for puberty -- her fantasy world needs to be someplace where she can either take a break from that or have some sense of control over it). There seems to be enough flexibility in this kind of game that you can ask her what she wants out of it, what kind of setting, characters, goals, etc., and you can create it together. If she has a crafty streak, she might even be interested in creating a 3D game board or terrain or maps to make it "hers."

Finally, a one-player game can be something of a challenge--both to the player and the DM--and you'll want to take that into account. (Will you play an NPC companion for her PC? How will you make meaningful single player encounters? Will she be expected to play multiple characters?)

And a finally finally: 4e seems kind of visual to me. Rather than D&D minis, you may consider going to the local craft or educational toy store and get a few Toobs (sets of about a dozen or so brightly painted plastic figures with a variety of themes--knights, dragons, pirates, sea animals, etc. -- about $6-$8/set) to populate her world with. And maybe even get some Moon Sand (usually sold next to the Play-Doh -- about $5-20, depending on whether you get a single tub or get a whole set with molds) to stand them up in for terrain.

[santinj@]

Dreamer wrote:

Toobs (sets of about a dozen or so brightly painted plastic figures with a variety of themes--knights, dragons, pirates, sea animals, etc. -- about $6-$8/set) to populate her world with.

I've never seen these before until I looked them up on Amazon. My 3-year-old would love these! Awesome.

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it.

I'll probably lurk from time-to-time just to see when the baby comes! Congrats in advance, and I'll pray that the delivery goes smoothly.