Ya I know not OGL
But assuming I wanted to flip the duskblade into Pathfinder would it be reasonable to allow the same unlimited 0 level spells/day basically giving the duskblade the ability to enchant every melee attack with a 0 level spell at worst ?
Thoughts ?
Well the only 0 level spell that Duskblades get that can be channeled (assuming that is what you meant by enchant) through a melee attack is touch of fatigue. I dont see it being terrably overpowered. Once you hit 6th level you would actually have to start giving up an attack to add that touch of fatigue. At 13th level,sure every full round action could have a touch of fatigue attached to your attacks but then at that level what is not going to make its saving throw agains a 0 level spell?Ya I know not OGL
But assuming I wanted to flip the duskblade into Pathfinder would it be reasonable to allow the same unlimited 0 level spells/day basically giving the duskblade the ability to enchant every melee attack with a 0 level spell at worst ?
Thoughts ?
Do ranged touch not count as touch spells ? a ranged touch spell cast within 5 feet is fundamentally the same as a touch spell.
I would have said they do in which case acid orb, disrupt undead, ray of frost would all qualify for arcane channeling. allowing 1d3dmg acid or ice extra unlimited and extra 1d6 vs undead unlimited.
Do ranged touch not count as touch spells ? a ranged touch spell cast within 5 feet is fundamentally the same as a touch spell.I would have said they do in which case acid orb, disrupt undead, ray of frost would all qualify for arcane channeling. allowing 1d3dmg acid or ice extra unlimited and extra 1d6 vs undead unlimited.
Nope sorry Ranged Touch spells are different than Touch Spells. A Duskblade can't Arcane Channel those spells(Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead) into melee attacks.
Besides a Range Touch Attack spell that is used within 5ft of a creature would provoke an AoO unlike a Touch Attack Spell which doesn't. This is because you are using a ranged attack within a threatened area. Which helps shows how the two types of spells are very different.
So as Kalyth said the only spell to worry about is Touch of Fatigue. After having played tested this for a long time, over a year now, the only real downside is the poor DM that has to make all those extra saving throw on those hits. Those extra d20 rolls do start to add up after awhile. Otherwise what Kalyth said is pretty much correct.
later
Huh, well there ya go
Well thats just lowered my opinion of the ole duskblade somewhat, ah well
thanks anyway lads
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I don't see why that's so bad. Shocking Grasp is effectively giving you a sword with a damage element on it. Touch of idiocy is pretty damn good.
Besides.. it's not like the Duskblade has that made ranged touch spells and unlike a lot of casters, his BAB is good enough to use them in place of an opening round charge. :P
Given that they've already got an ungodly number like 11/day, I don't think the change is neccessary. By the time they got that high enough, they'll be wanting to use better.Ya I know not OGL
But assuming I wanted to flip the duskblade into Pathfinder would it be reasonable to allow the same unlimited 0 level spells/day basically giving the duskblade the ability to enchant every melee attack with a 0 level spell at worst ?
Thoughts ?
RAW the duskblade caps out at 6 0 level spells per day, not 11. The Pathfinder change to "at will" lets them cast all four (that's right there's only four) 0 level spells all day long. It isn't any more over powered than any other class having 0 levels all day long. And, as has been mentioned, only one of the four can be channelled into a melee attack.
I'm playing a sixth level duskblade right now. This is the usual sequence if he makes a serious attack:
swift action: cast Blade of Blood, take the 5 hp damage (+3d6)
move action: step up to target
standard action: melee attack with +1 spell storing elven lightblade, channelling Shocking Grasp (1d6 weapon + 5d6 shock + 3d6 BoB = 9d6)
free action: activate the second Shocking Grasp stored in the sword (+5d6 shock)
total damage: 14d6, 15d6 if its a crit
There are other cool moves, but this one is my favorite.
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Can't you only use one swift/free/immediate action per round?
Swift action, yes, only one per round, unless you're an Epic level spellcaster with Multispell casting multiple Quickened spells. Free actions you can string together as many as the DM will permit. (Immediate actions count as your one swift action from your next turn.)
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Ah, yes :)
Anyway, I've never played a Duskblade (nor seen one played in my group) - so I assume that the 0-level spells are taken from the Sor/Wiz charts, since they're not indicated anywhere. Since Wizards and Sorcerers both get the "Cantrips" class ability, I would say that it might be logical to also give it to the Duskblade.
However, I think my preference (since it's a PHB2 class, and already a boost over core 3.5 classes, much like Pathfinder classes are) would be using the "Arcane Attunement" ability of the Duskblade as the replacement for Cantrips (since the Duskblade is supposed to have a limited spell list, it might not make sense to provide any available 0-level spell at-will). You could take Arcane Attunement and turn those into at-wills, instead of limiting use to 3 + INT MOD times per day and leave the 0-level spells as-is in the class.
Thank you! I obviously did skim it too quickly.
That said, I think either way would work just fine.
Yes but that's because they get Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Flare Ghost Sound and Read Magic as spell like abilities at level 1.
I believe that since they're all touch spells, they're channelable.Where are they listed? Maybe I skimmed the class description too quickly. :) I didn't see any 0-levels listed in the Spells section of the PHB2 either for the Duskblade...Page 24. Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, and Touch of Fatigue.
This was already covered upthread... Touch of Fatigue is a touch spell. Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, and Ray of Frost are ranged touch spells. There is a difference there, just like melee attacks and ranged attacks are different. I'm not sure it'd really hurt the Duskblade to channel them, by the rules, he can't.
Touch spells mean "Range: Touch". The colloquialism "ranged touch spells" is not an official term at all. They typically are distinguished by "Effect: Ray", and are then described as requiring a ranged touch attack to hit.
It's not very open to debate or interpretation, though the DM call rules of course.
As to the original question, I generally feel if a class already has 0th level spells, and does not have another at-will ability, probably best to give them "Cantrips" or "Orisons". I hesitate to say this as I feel the Duskblade is ridiculously overpowered as it is (not looking to debate that) - but it just makes general sense.
Touch of Fatigue channeled at will is pretty darn powerful to my eyes. I barely even allow the "Touch of" spells in my games, particularly the no-save Touch of Idiocy.
RAW the duskblade caps out at 6 0 level spells per day, not 11. The Pathfinder change to "at will" lets them cast all four (that's right there's only four) 0 level spells all day long. It isn't any more over powered than any other class having 0 levels all day long. And, as has been mentioned, only one of the four can be channelled into a melee attack.I'm playing a sixth level duskblade right now. This is the usual sequence if he makes a serious attack:
swift action: cast Blade of Blood, take the 5 hp damage (+3d6)
move action: step up to target
standard action: melee attack with +1 spell storing elven lightblade, channelling Shocking Grasp (1d6 weapon + 5d6 shock + 3d6 BoB = 9d6)
free action: activate the second Shocking Grasp stored in the sword (+5d6 shock)
total damage: 14d6, 15d6 if its a crit
There are other cool moves, but this one is my favorite.
It's reasons like this is why I hate the duskblade. It makes most melee classes obsolute. Do you want to know how sick a duskblade can get?
Step One: Quick Cast True Strike
Step Two: Full Attack Action (Channel Shocking Grasp)
Step Three: Power Attack
Even if using the pathfinder variation of power attack, thats still pretty high.
Lets say the duskblade was...we'll say strength 16 (Which is pretty low considering magic items and the fact that the duskblade can just buff himself). Give him/her a two-handed weapon and wer've got
4 Damage from Strength, 6 from power attack, 5D6 from shocking grasp, and weapon damage.
Not taking into account weapon damage this already amounts to an average of 28.5 points on damage On every attack and thats before applying weapon damage on top of it. It gets better, if you use True Strike to acheive this, despite power attacking you actually have a better attack modifier.
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It's reasons like this is why I hate the duskblade. It makes most melee classes obsolute. Do you want to know how sick a duskblade can get?
Step One: Quick Cast True Strike
Step Two: Full Attack Action (Channel Shocking Grasp)
Step Three: Power AttackEven if using the pathfinder variation of power attack, thats still pretty high.
Lets say the duskblade was...we'll say strength 16 (Which is pretty low considering magic items and the fact that the duskblade can just buff himself). Give him/her a two-handed weapon and wer've got
4 Damage from Strength, 6 from power attack, 5D6 from shocking grasp, and weapon damage.
Not taking into account weapon damage this already amounts to an average of 28.5 points on damage On every attack and thats before applying weapon damage on top of it. It gets better, if you use True Strike to acheive this, despite power attacking you actually have a better attack modifier.
1) you're spending two rounds to set this up (Spontanious casters can't quicken, so no 6th level quickened True Strike for you).
2) True Strike only works on the first attack, so that's one punch you take two rounds to set up.
3) it's a full round action, that means you're 5' away from your target at most. Unless you're surrounded, that gives you fewer targets.
4) after the first round of this trick, if you're fighting anything with reach, you'll be drawing AoAs when you cast. Sure you can cast defensively, but they can ready actions if you're fighting multiple oponents.
5) It is generally accepted that the fighter is the weakest (least diverse) of the classes. He is made 'obsolete' by the wildshaping druid, or divine might cleric long before the duskblade came along. May as well complain that the Warrior is inferior to the Fighter.
6) All the Duskblade can do is damage. His skill list, while diverse, is eaten up in part by the 'skill tax' of Concentration/Spellcraft/Knowledge Arcana. While not as limited as the Sorceror (Int based casting helps) he is still limited if it's not 'hulk smask'
7) The Fighter and the Duskblade take different roles. At low levels, the Figter can soak attacks due to greater hit points and better armor. At higher levels, this can be enhanced. The fighter can load up on adamantine heavy armor and HP, the duskblade is still going to me in Mithral and not in a heavy shield if he'd like to cast. in 4.x terms *shudder* The Duskblade is a striker, the Fighter a defender. in X-man terms, the Fighter is Colossus, the duskblade is Gambit ;-)
8) What I call the 'why won't you just die!' theory. The duskblade can run out of spells. GWF and GWS keep working as long as you have the tool.
Having played a duskblade, I do find they burn through spells quickly. like a mini-nova. YRMV of course.
1) you're spending two rounds to set this up (Spontanious casters can't quicken, so no 6th level quickened True Strike for you).2) True Strike only works on the first attack, so that's one punch you take two rounds to set up.
3) it's a full round action, that means you're 5' away from your target at most. Unless you're surrounded, that gives you fewer targets.
4) after the first round of this trick, if you're fighting anything with reach, you'll be drawing AoAs when you cast. Sure you can cast defensively, but they can ready actions if you're fighting multiple oponents.
5) It is generally accepted that the fighter is the weakest (least diverse) of the classes. He is made 'obsolete' by the wildshaping druid, or divine might cleric long before the duskblade came along. May as well complain that the Warrior is inferior to the Fighter.
6) All the Duskblade can do is damage. His skill list, while diverse, is eaten up in part by the 'skill tax' of Concentration/Spellcraft/Knowledge Arcana. While not as limited as the Sorceror (Int...
Actually with quick-cast you're doing it that very same round. Duskblades can quicken spells as a class feature.
Secondly one attack can be enough, I've actually used a tactic like this IG and one-shotted many bosses. In fact theres even feats that let you deal even more power attack damage on a charge (such as leap attack).
Thirdly, quick casting provokes no attacks of oppertunity, neither does arcane channeling.
Fourthly, this doesn't just outdo fighters. It out-does barberians, paladins, basically any melee class that isn't TOB.
Fifthly, yes he can only do damage. But he does it well and better than the combat classes. I'm not trying to say he's overpowering to a druid or cleric, I'm trying to say he's overpowering compared to combat classes. Wizards, druids and clerics aren't that bad unless the player intentionally chooses broken spells, this tactic on the other hand was actually partially the intention of a duskblade. Not only does the author admit this but the sample duskblade in the entry uses this tactc.
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Sorry, didn't have the PHB II handy.
Ok, forgot about the quick cast. On average, a 5th level duskblade is going to drop a 5th level fighter, if he hits. you're burning almost 20% of your resources in one shot, you'd better win.
A fighter is going to win by tactics.
with 5 feats, the fighter can take EWP spiked chain, WF spiked chain, WS spiked chain, Combat Expertise and improved trip. in melee, all I need to do is ready a move action 'if he arcane channels, then I back up.' I smack you with a spiked chain as my standard action, making sure to keep 5' away. You arcane channel, I back up 20' (we'll assume heavy armor) you have to move forward, I AoA and trip you, you fall on your butt, I hit you again, (Improved trip) and your true strike and channelled spell go poof. That's not even me taking an optimizer build. I'm no good at that.
The fighter's (only) strength is reliability. WF and WS never stop working, they don't have uses/day they don't go away in an anti-magic shell or globe of invulnerability, they don't become useless in a silence spell.
Is the fighter on a whole, outclassed by everyone at higher levels? Hells yes. That's one of the issues Pathfinder is addressing. Are they so outclassed as to be completely useless in a team? Not so much.
Sorry, didn't have the PHB II handy.
Ok, forgot about the quick cast. On average, a 5th level duskblade is going to drop a 5th level fighter, if he hits. you're burning almost 20% of your resources in one shot, you'd better win.
A fighter is going to win by tactics.
with 5 feats, the fighter can take EWP spiked chain, WF spiked chain, WS spiked chain, Combat Expertise and improved trip. in melee, all I need to do is ready a move action 'if he arcane channels, then I back up.' I smack you with a spiked chain as my standard action, making sure to keep 5' away. You arcane channel, I back up 20' (we'll assume heavy armor) you have to move forward, I AoA and trip you, you fall on your butt, I hit you again, (Improved trip) and your true strike and channelled spell go poof. That's not even me taking an optimizer build. I'm no good at that.
The fighter's (only) strength is reliability. WF and WS never stop working, they don't have uses/day they don't go away in an anti-magic shell or globe of invulnerability, they don't become useless in a silence spell.
Is the fighter on a whole, outclassed by everyone at higher levels? Hells yes. That's one of the issues Pathfinder is addressing. Are they so outclassed as to be completely useless in a team? Not so much.
A smart fighter can make use of so many feats. Again, I've personally done this and my group will agree that he was by far the most broken character I've ever made.
Firstly: Any class can win by using tactics, that's not what makes a class balanced. If you're going to use the argument of "I can beat him/her if I come up with a good plan" then no class is overpowered. In fact, I've seen several good plans to kill a Tarrasque (CR 20) at level 11 using only single characters. Does that mean those classes need re-writing just because a player used their abilities well?
Secondly: I hate to break it to you but an anti-magic field is a place where any spellcasting classes lose all their class features. It should never be anything that crops up often, let alone often enough to really influence balance. Also, I like to mention that should an NPC use an AMF, they're idiots since only primary spellcasters can cast such a spell.
Thirdly:What exactly stops the duskblade taking the spiked chain as well? Taking the proficency + improved trip is really all thats needed to keep an enemy at bay.
Also, I'd like to point out you're comparing the classes in a battle against each other. The point I'm making is that if part of a team fighting against monsters the duskblade is going to dominate more than the fighter. Is your Chain trip build going to work on a collosal dragon? No. The True Strike and Power Attack tactic however works on just about any monster.
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Sorry, I thought you were comparing the two in a combat against each other, I was doing so in reply.
Against monsters, the fighter is going to lag, but again, I look at his consistancy as a strength. The Duskblade can run out of spells the figher keeps on trucking. It's his -only- strength mind you, which is what Pathfinder addresses.
A 'Pathfinder Duskblade' (to get back to the original topic) I think should have unlimited cantrips and then an average BAB. That way it wouldn't overshine anyone.
I'm going to agree to disagree, I feel that the Fighter is not completely overshined by the DB. Dimmed, yes, but no where near as SRD classes can do.
As to the spiked chain bit, most Duskblades aren't going to sink 3 feats into one weapon I'd think.
Sorry, I thought you were comparing the two in a combat against each other, I was doing so in reply.
Against monsters, the fighter is going to lag, but again, I look at his consistancy as a strength. The Duskblade can run out of spells the figher keeps on trucking. It's his -only- strength mind you, which is what Pathfinder addresses.
** spoiler omitted **
A 'Pathfinder Duskblade' (to get back to the original topic) I think should have unlimited cantrips and then an average BAB. That way it wouldn't overshine anyone.
I'm going to agree to disagree, I feel that the Fighter is not completely overshined by the DB. Dimmed, yes, but no where near as SRD classes can do.
As to the spiked chain bit, most Duskblades aren't going to sink 3 feats into one weapon I'd think.
I would be inclined to agree on your first point, but the duskblade can get an absurd number of spells per day very quickly. If the class had less spells per day (perhaps somthing similer to the bard progression) I think it would be more viable.