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so why not make them learn like wizards?
Because faith magic isn't the same as arcane magic. There's no secret formulas, no meticulous learning.
A cleric doesn't commit his spell list to memory. A cleric asks his god to heal people and the result is Cure Light Wounds (if that's what the player chooses.)
Maybe in older editions he said a Cure Light Wounds prayer, but 3e changed that. All divine casters basically ASK their gods for a result and the result of that prayer is the spell itself.
It's not that the cleric knows his whole spell list really, it's that his faith and conviction is strong enough to be granted those "spells" when he prays.
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I agree with SirUrza . . . but see one bend to the logic. A cleric has to prepare the right sort of spell for which he or she intends to pray that day. So, the OP has a point of logic in the wizards and clerics prepare their spells similarly. I think SirUrza's explanation would be dead on if a cleric had open spell accessibility like sorcerors and bards, as opposed to the mechanic of pre-selection. (This isn't to find fault with SirUrza's explanation, but perhaps point out a hiccup in the rules.)
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i am prob going to be flamed alive here but has anyone thought of making clerics learn spells like wizards? i never liked the fact that they get every single spell in the PHB without any work or learning involved, they are a powerful class, one of the most, so why not make them learn like wizards? please comment for and against and why you think that please(dont bother with this sucks or no i dont like it they dont add any meaningful to the talk)
Although the mechanics say, "Hey, clerics can prepare any of the spells from their list", it's often a real pain for players to actually choose. When I bought The Spell Compendium, it got worse.
I thought about doing something to combine clerics and sorcerers, but with the Celestial Bloodline for Sorcerers, I don't see the reason for a divine spontaneous caster. (I know, it's been done already, but re-design is always an option for me. Just not in this case),
So, I've been thinking about giving clerics "all the spells" on a series of tiered lists:
Common Spells would be those taught to all members of the clergy (things like Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Aid, Santuary, ect.
Uncommon Spells would be those taught to senior members of the clergy.
Rare Spells would be those either taught to the highest ranking members of the clergy or those discovered while adventuring.
Personally, I think doing this would tie clerics a lot closer to their churches, their perspective dogmas, and would make discovering clerical scrolls just as exciting for them as can be for Wizards (when they discover Arcane scrolls).
That being said, it's a big project and on the back burner for me.
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Although the mechanics say, "Hey, clerics can prepare any of the spells from their list", it's often a real pain for players to actually choose. When I bought The Spell Compendium, it got worse.
You know, this reminds me of another issue that has arisen around the game table: Not all cleric spells are available to every cleric. Specifically, you can't take spells of opposed alignments to your cleric. This has caused some headaches for players not familiar with alignment descriptors to their spells . . . myself included.
Common Spells would be those taught to all members of the clergy (things like Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Aid, Santuary, ect.
Uncommon Spells would be those taught to senior members of the clergy.
Rare Spells would be those either taught to the highest ranking members of the clergy or those discovered while adventuring.
Personally, I think doing this would tie clerics a lot closer to their churches, their perspective dogmas, and would make discovering clerical scrolls just as exciting for them as can be for Wizards (when they discover Arcane scrolls).
That being said, it's a big project and on the back burner for me.
This system already exists: They're called spell levels. A first level cleric doesn't know Miracle any more than he knows Fireball. On the other hand, a 17th level cleric certainly would count as a 'highest ranking member of the clergy'.
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This system already exists: They're called spell levels.
Congratulations, you completely missed the point. ;) Fortunately, you get extra points for sarcasm.
first level cleric doesn't know Miracle any more than he knows Fireball. On the other hand, a 17th level cleric certainly would count as a 'highest ranking member of the clergy'.
I'm thinking along a completely different track by making a distinction between what the Temple/Cult/Church/Lodge/Whatever teaches every cleric (Common spells), what they probably teach specialty priests (Uncommon spells), and what those especially gifted members either learn or must discover on their own (Rare Spells).
You could easily argue that anything from the core books (the PHB) is common and then restrict other books (The Spell Compendium for instance) as being uncommon or rare (ie.. you must acquire it in game).
More to the point, level and church authority DO NOT (in most games, at least) go hand in hand. A 17th level cleric could still hold the rank of a lay priest and a high level expert with 14 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) might hold a much higher position in a church.
Of course, that's not core and falls squarely into the lap of the DM/designers.
Cheers,
Jaye
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I like it. Flavor aside, seems a good way to deal with the issue of the "ever-expanding" divine spell list.
So, I've been thinking about giving clerics "all the spells" on a series of tiered lists:Common Spells would be those taught to all members of the clergy (things like Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Aid, Santuary, ect.
Uncommon Spells would be those taught to senior members of the clergy.
Rare Spells would be those either taught to the highest ranking members of the clergy or those discovered while adventuring.
Personally, I think doing this would tie clerics a lot closer to their churches, their perspective dogmas, and would make discovering clerical scrolls just as exciting for them as can be for Wizards (when they discover Arcane scrolls).
I've been toying around with the idea anyway, so I'll probably develop this concept further in the future as an alternative rule/mechanic. If Paizo doesn't beat me to it.
;)
Cheers,
Jaye
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i sort did that already, any PHB spell they get, any other book is off limits until they find someone to learn how to ask for it from their god. just last game the party was in outer planes and i allowed the cleric to pick up some prays from manual of the planes, which worked out well. but something in the core rules to limit them getting every single spell out there would be great. i liked the old 2e rules on rarity of both mage and cleric spells, have PF do that would really be a godsend(punt intended :P)
I'd argue against it being a core mechanic. An alternative rule, sure. But not core. There's absolutely no reason the make a rule when the DM can just say, "Ummm ..yeah... no."
The problem with that is what happens when a PC becomes the highest level cleric of his God in the area? Who does he learn his new 'Common' spells from? What about Chaotic churches with no structure or rank?
I would not exactly have a problem with forcing Clerics to use 'Prayer Books' that function exactly like spellbooks. I do not see the need to introduce a new subsystem, which may or may not result in worldbuilding issues.
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The problem with that is what happens when a PC becomes the highest level cleric of his God in the area? Who does he learn his new 'Common' spells from? What about Chaotic churches with no structure or rank?
I would not exactly have a problem with forcing Clerics to use 'Prayer Books' that function exactly like spellbooks. I do not see the need to introduce a new subsystem, which may or may not result in worldbuilding issues.
I agree it should not be a core mechanic. I think it would be a fun, alternative mechanic, however.
As for world-building issues, I don't see that much of a problem. Even the most chaotic organizations have some structure (generally based on individual strength or ability; think Drow or the evil hordes of Takisis from Dragonlance).
For the DM, it shouldn't be hard to say,
"Okay, Charley, you're playing a cleric of Shiny the Sungod. I'd like you to pick 4 spells (prayers) plus a number equal to your Wisdom bonus. These should all be first level. You also get all the zero level spells (called Orisons) that aren't opposed to you in alignment or church creed. Since you've got a high Wisdom modifier, you can also select 1 additional uncommon spell (prayer) to add to your prayer book, as well. Basically, these are the spells the church fathers feel you have mastered. Father Happy Sunguy has also added a few, more complicated prayers that he wants you to begin studying as you travel. When you have mastered those new prayers (reached a new level), you should consider returning to the church for more. Otherwise, you can attempt to learn additional prayers while you're out adventuring if you encounter them. Lucky for you, the church fathers hear you're heading west through the Darkenfell Bog and want you to check out an abandoned shrine there...."
Mechanically, treating Cleric spells like wizard spells shouldn't pose a huge problem. In fact, it might increase the chance that the player isn't bogged down by spell selection. Moreover, each deity might offer his or her clergy the ability to spontaneously cast certain spells (not just cure light wounds) tied to his or her ethos. A war god might grant Bless Weapon, a god of strongholds and civilization might grant Sanctuary, and so on..
This has the potential to be a fun alternative class/mechanic.
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If anything, I'd say that a cleric should cast spells like a sorcerer, not a wizard. He should have a roster of spells known representing the cleric spells that best exemplify his particular beliefs, and should be able to cast them all spontaneously.
i do agree, or at least have that for their domain spells
aisde of that, had anyone thought about Clerics developing their own spells? or is that just for wizards?
does a Cleric hs ways to study his religions to achieve a different kind of miracle (lay hands on someone and healing him its airacle in itself)
:D i am beggining Tuesday a new campaign and i am going to play with a Cleric of Iomedae, we at last decided to playtest the setting... (its going to be madness for the poor DM to play with 6 players in internet. but its his show, i let him).
i haven't played a Cleric in years... and i was thinking about the idea oif creating some personal spells for her, what do you think, it might be posible to create cleric spells as a wizard would create his own spells?
thanks
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If anything, I'd say that a cleric should cast spells like a sorcerer, not a wizard. He should have a roster of spells known representing the cleric spells that best exemplify his particular beliefs, and should be able to cast them all spontaneously.i do agree, or at least have that for their domain spells
aside of that, had anyone thought about Clerics developing their own spells? or is that just for wizards?
does a Cleric have ways to study his religions to achieve a different kind of miracle (lay hands on someone and healing him its miracle in itself)
:D i am beginning Tuesday a new campaign and i am going to play with a Cleric of Iomedae, we at last decided to playtest the setting... (its going to be madness for the poor DM to play with 6 players in internet. but its his show, i let him).
i haven't played a Cleric in years... and i was thinking about the idea of creating some personal spells for her, what do you think, it might be possible to create cleric spells as a wizard would create his own spells?
thanks
The spontaneous casting Cleric is called a Favored Soul, located in Complete Divine. Spontaneous Domain Casting is a feat in that book, too, IIRC.
And it's always been possible for any divine caster to create new spells. Same rules and restrictions as per an arcane caster creating a new spell.
As far as the Common/Uncommon/Rare spell splits, Monte Cook beat you to it years ago. That's how spells are dealt with in Arcana Unearthed and Arcana Evolved.
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We tried this as a similar mechanic with the release of the Kalamar campaign setting.
Each cleric was required to have a prayer book (granting a +2 circumstance bonus to Religon checks). A cleric would have to read passages (much as a Wizard studies) from this prayer book to gain the inspiration to memorize spells. Readign a passage with a different perspective might grant a spell that previously was unknown.
Mechanically, there was no difference. It was just for flavor. But some of my players still role-play their cleric characters like this.
We tried this as a similar mechanic with the release of the Kalamar campaign setting.
Each cleric was required to have a prayer book (granting a +2 circumstance bonus to Religon checks). A cleric would have to read passages (much as a Wizard studies) from this prayer book to gain the inspiration to memorize spells. Readign a passage with a different perspective might grant a spell that previously was unknown.
Mechanically, there was no difference. It was just for flavor. But some of my players still role-play their cleric characters like this.
I would have to say that I kind of lean in the opposite direction away from learned spells or prayer books for clerics. I think it might be a viable option to say that Clerics don't need to prepare specific spells. They do need to meditate and pray in order to prepare themselves. Then you could use a variant of the spontaneous casting cleric from Unearthed Arcana except that the cleric's spells known list would basically be every divine spell that exists that falls under something that his deity would approve of. The DM of course would have final say over what a particular deity would approve of. The spells per day list would be the same as for a regular spontaneous casting cleric he would just be incredible versatile in his selection of spells as long as his deity approved of his selection. I know that this would make the cleric a VERY versatile character but to me it seems more like how a system for answering prayers might work. Would it really unbalance the game as long as bad guys got it too and as long as the limiting factor of a certain number of spells per day is in effect? It might be a little tougher on players always having to be on their toes as far as selecting which spells to cast but not much more than it is currently. The easiest option though would be to limit the cleric in his spells known and just go with the spontaneous caster option in Unearthed Arcana.
Charles
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On a slightly tangential aside: Church and deity-specific spell lists are already represented in the ruleset. That's what domains are.
Yeah, I know that. What I was saying when I said this: "Moreover, each deity might offer his or her clergy the ability to spontaneously cast certain spells (not just cure light wounds) tied to his or her ethos. A war god might grant Bless Weapon, a god of strongholds and civilization might grant Sanctuary, and so on.."
Was that you could develop new spontaneous spells linked to an ethos or deity. That's it. You could certainly pull those from the domains if you chose to.
My biggest qualm with this subject is that whenever a new splatbook is released, Clerics effectively double the size of their spellbook automatically, for free, and whether they like it or not.
I personally believe that there should be a mechanic for Cleric "learning" new spells, because it is a balance issue.
Oi, I believe that the Archivist was a clergy who is unlocking the powers of a deceased deity, and is trying to get him to rise to power. In the forgotten realms, it could be seen as an alternative route during Lolth's silence.
The archivist, I also used, did research on divinity, and eventually sought out to not become a deity, but allow someone else to become a deity so that way said archivist could rule the world as a proxy. Reason being, is in my campaign world... Deities have no interaction with mortals unless they are their worshippers.
And lastly, remember alignment. Cleric's can't cast spells of their opposing alignments.