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Well, a lot of people have been deprived of a product that they looked forward to receiving every month. Some had been collecting them for 20 or more years. It ticked off a lot of people. I have a right to be ticked off about it, and you have the right to ignore my post and move on if you don't agree.
Being ticked off because a company made a legitimate business decision is totally within your rights. That does not mean that the end of Dragon and Dungeon as print magazines was the result of corporate malfeasance.
OK...so are the new Goodman games modules for 4e that were supposed to be out at GenCon any good?
There's been extremely little buzz about these, but those few that bought them and commented have said they were good.
I did buy one of the 4e Goodman modules, but I confess I didn't have time at the con to give it a proper look through.
- Ashavan
The Irony of the whole thing is that Wizards wanted companies to do what Goodman, and Necromacer games were already doing, but by making the GSL so restictive few want to do so. And I shocked that companies like Mongoose decided to support 4e with thier class line. I'll respect all to say they know what they are doing, but it just seems too dangerous. On the other had, as much as I like OGL games that are 3.x like (Pathfinder, Conan, D20) and as much as I like a lot of the stuff that came out during the so called glut, I think in the end its good for OGL more then GSL as glut stuff will tend to go 4e while hopfully more quality orinted material will go Pathfinder and OGL way.
My opinion: Goodman games has always wanted to be first with something, now is their chance. Unfortunately, their blind support for the GSL is distasteful, especially since Wizards of the Coast is damaging the 3PP community with their GSL failure, and damaging our game with their wonton destruction of the realms along with the video-esque incoherent, poor quality 4e. For these reasons, I find Goodman's zealous reaction to 4e distasteful, immature, and shows a strong level of insensitivity to our community. I've asked to be removed from all Goodman games advertisement email lists.
No you!
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I heard some great points made in this Webcast. And, I agree with Mr. Goodman on these salient issues.
- The Game System License is a real license that is an effort by Wizards of the Coast to protect their identity, product and properties. There's nothing wrong with WotC trying to sell more of their books by asking 3rd party publishers to conform to a higher, stricter standard.
- The Dungeons & Dragons brand is a powerful tool. Being able to put the actual words Dungeons & Dragons on your product, as opposed to a d20 logo, should give 3rd party product a strong marketing tool and more closely identify themselves with the top RPG game and its standards.
- Goodman Games has communicated frequently with WotC to develop a favorable relationship so that both can make gains from the new 4E rules, rather than take an adversarial stance. This has allowed them to avoid lulls in production and get ahead on 4E publishing schedules.
- It's okay that computer fantasy and RPG games have informed the new edition of the game. For twenty-five years, the table-top game has influenced the computer industry. There is nothing wrong with the tables turning and the table-top games drawing on the popular and useful concepts brought to market by computer designers. It must also be noted that the 4E hearkens back to the game's tactical miniatures days.
- Goodman Games wants to make adventures for the rules people are buying and using. He wants to take full advantage of that powerful Dungeons & Dragons brand.
- A publisher's job is to bring needed product to the market. Dungeons & Dragons 4E has provided a market; a big, big market. Goodman Games shall be there to fill a particular need in that market - in this case, adventures.
- Goodman games focused on what's possible, rather than what they can't do. They found that a lot is possible and there are terrific new opportunities in store, including expanded product lines.
I support Joe and Goodman Games in their efforts. I think it's commendable that he found a way to work within the GSL that reconciles with his goals. Somebody besides WotC needs to provide 4E content for a public starving for commercially published adventures. Goodman could have sat around pouting about the GSL. Rather, they took the initiative, communicated with WotC, and are now the first to bring simultaneous 4E products to market.
Great job.
You know that Pathfinder already has a bigger errata than 4e, right? This is just yet another poorly argued and incoherent (see what I did there?) piece of written diarrhea from you.
You do know that Pathfinder is a Beta Test Version right???? Errata isn't really an issue when the whole purpose of the current release is to test for bugs and tweak the rule set until it works as desired.
Calling Pathfinder Beta's gliches errata is the equivalent of complaining that a painter's unfinished work a bad painting.
It costs money (for the printed version), putting the word beta on something you charge money for doesn't excuse a reasonable expectation of quality. And what is and isn't reasonable is a matter of personal preference.
You do know that Pathfinder is a Beta Test Version right???? Errata isn't really an issue when the whole purpose of the current release is to test for bugs and tweak the rule set until it works as desired.
Calling Pathfinder Beta's gliches errata is the equivalent of complaining that a painter's unfinished work a bad painting.
Considering that a print version is completely optional and a PDF version could have been gotten for free, it is a little nitpicky to harp on a little errata when every book has errata. Plus, there is more than a little quality to be found in the Beta so I think your expectations of quality have been met, at least if you have a reasonable expectation of quality.
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Please feel free to post that response to everyone who complains about 4e, you wouldn't be a hypocrit afterall, would you?
The big difference is that PF is still a work in progress. If th final version is out and we get a lot of errata as early as 4th got the, I will complain you can be sure about it.
But PF still can and most probably will change and as far as I can tell, the print version of the Beta is for those who prefer Deadwood Copies instead of PDFs.
Please feel free to post that response to everyone who complains about 4e, you wouldn't be a hypocrit afterall, would you?The big difference is that PF is still a work in progress. If th final version is out and we get a lot of errata as early as 4th got the, I will complain you can be sure about it.
But PF still can and most probably will change and as far as I can tell, the print version of the Beta is for those who prefer Deadwood Copies instead of PDFs.
Are you suggesting that a company like Paizo shouldn't worry about putting their name and reputation on a product with a bunch of errors such as cross-referencing feats and abilities that no longer exist in the product, merely because it is a Beta version? That they shouldn't bother approaching this product with the same professionalism they would approach a final version of the product?
What if someone at GenCon purchased this because their friend said Paizo's stuff was good, and this was the first product from the company they saw. Do you think a bunch of errors would make them more willing to purchase additional products? Would they ignore possibly bad editing and rushed aspects merely because it was a "Beta"?
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Are you suggesting that a company like Paizo shouldn't worry about putting their name and reputation on a product with a bunch of errors such as cross-referencing feats and abilities that no longer exist in the product, merely because it is a Beta version? That they shouldn't bother approaching this product with the same professionalism they would approach a final version of the product?
Nope, I am not suggesting that errors in the Beta are negliable. Errors like the ones you pointed out are bothersome and embarrassing for PAIZO too. Thes are due to bad editing and/or spellproofing.
(Although I must admit that so far I had a few looks at Beta, so I do not know if these errors really exist)ERRATA that actually change or update mechanics (e.g. if they change Perception DCs) is a different thing. PF is in flux and some mechanics may even change between Beta and Final version. But 4th is the Final Product.
The moment you start charging money for something, it's in a 'finished' form. See computer games and the complaints about MMOs launching with the first few months being effectively a paid beta. In computer game and computer software terms, beta traditionally means free in return for the testing.
Just to be fair, if you order some computer application Betas in CD format, instead of just downloading them, they will charge you some money, to cover cd costs, labeling, etc.
Paizo is not the only one to do the free PDF / pay-per-hardcopy thing for some products. In our university system, it is actually done with things like dissertations and theses, class syllabi, etc: free to DL / 15 euro for CD copy.A book hardcopy has practical advantages for the user and production costs for the manufacturer (especially relevant for small companies). Charging for it is expected. For a color richly illustrated book, that cost seems to me lower than doing it at home (I have printed and bound my share of dtr downloads). On the other hand, Paizo giving free pdf downloads to purchasers of subscriber hardcopy products is quite a unique (sadly) and generous attitude, as it is quite time-consuming and not-for-all-PC-users to produce a decent pdf (which has many uses) out of a hardcopy.
"Charging money" does not make something "finished", material and production costs are to be taken into account. What you don't pay for (yet) is the intellectual design process, as that is still being tested and in flux.
"involvement and investment in the project" sounds actually good. 4e did not really involve too much of the gaming community and did offer a finished product. I would have liked seeing a "4e beta playtest" in June 2008 and player feedback shaping some of the design decisions taken.
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OPINION: The word Beta is there solely to allow paizo to a) sell some copies of the book twice. B) make people feel involved and thus invested in the project and c) avoid accusations of failing at x/y/z with the words 'it's beta'.
If you have a look at the very low price for a full color book this big, you will see that this is a ver low margin book for PAIZO.
The primary reason for the Book is that there are a lot of DMs and Players who like their Deadwood Copy. The book from PAIZO is probably cheaper than if you print out the PDF yourself.And, after all, you still can download the PDF version for free!
I for my part will not buy the Beta but have downloaded the PDF and will post playtest reviews and participate in discussions.
I do sincerly think all those who discuss rules and mechanics and do playtesting not only feel involved but are involved.
From the start is was clear that the final rules will only come out in Sept. 09. This is still an open playtest. And if playtesters find failings in the system it will be changed.
I'm sorry but comparing the cost of a book to what it would cost an individual to print it isn't really meaningful. Of course it is cheaper, it is always (per unit) cheaper having a professional company print a large number in bulk. That is why individual companies don't print their own material on their company printers but go to a printing company in the first place.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Considering that a print version is completely optional and a PDF version could have been gotten for free, it is a little nitpicky to harp on a little errata when every book has errata. Plus, there is more than a little quality to be found in the Beta so I think your expectations of quality have been met, at least if you have a reasonable expectation of quality.Please feel free to post that response to everyone who complains about 4e, you wouldn't be a hypocrit afterall, would you?
Wow, where did you get your legal, free copy of 4e downloaded from?
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I'm sorry but comparing the cost of a book to what it would cost an individual to print it isn't really meaningful. Of course it is cheaper, it is always (per unit) cheaper having a professional company print a large number in bulk. That is why individual companies don't print their own material on their company printers but go to a printing company in the first place.
Do you think that Paizo is somehow profiteering off of the Pathfinder Beta rpg? That would be an odd accusation, it seems to me, given that they are giving away the pdf, from which you can print our own, for free. Some people wanted a printed version of the Beta (me included) and thought that the price was fine, even though we expect to have to annotate it with errata, etc. I'm no more upset than I would be if I was playtesting 4e and it contained errata.
I'm sorry but comparing the cost of a book to what it would cost an individual to print it isn't really meaningful. Of course it is cheaper, it is always (per unit) cheaper having a professional company print a large number in bulk. That is why individual companies don't print their own material on their company printers but go to a printing company in the first place.Do you think that Paizo is somehow profiteering off of the Pathfinder Beta rpg? That would be an odd accusation, it seems to me, given that they are giving away the pdf, from which you can print our own, for free. Some people wanted a printed version of the Beta (me included) and thought that the price was fine, even though we expect to have to annotate it with errata, etc. I'm no more upset than I would be if I was playtesting 4e and it contained errata.
Do I think they are making unreasonable profits? No. Do I think they are making some profit on the print copies? Yes. At least I would hope so considering how people keep suggesting Paizo is making great business decisions. I mean if they were selling it at a loss, well that might be "noble" but ultimately foolhardy.
The Beta is free. Its a playtest document. Nothing more.
If you want to buy it, you can. But you can just download it for free if you want. The hardcopies are for people who want art and layout at their fingertips, even in the crapper. That's why it exists (and why I bought one).
There is no "Errata" for the Beta. You're mistaken, CPEvilref. Deal with it. Its not the end of the world. We all make mistakes. No need to get assy about it though.
For reference, I'm DEFINITELY being assy right now...but then again I didn't make any mistakes.
God, its good to take off the official uniform and get back to posting whatever the f$#@ I feel.
LIFE IS TULIPS AND FAIRY-BALLS!
Does this mean you can say "c%%#*#@#&" again?God, its good to take off the official uniform and get back to posting whatever the f@** I feel.
Let's see...
cockpunch
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OOOOOH YEAH! :-)
Edit: Well played censor machine, well played.
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Does this mean you can say "c%%#*#@#&" again?God, its good to take off the official uniform and get back to posting whatever the f@** I feel.
Let's see...
c@%**@@@#
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OOOOOH YEAH! :-)
Edit: Well played censor machine, well played.
You know you are a very strange duck Nick, very strange. Oh yeah I want my indulgences. *cracks the whip*
Do I think they are making unreasonable profits? No. Do I think they are making some profit on the print copies?
Please compare with print-on-demand companies which offer printed and bound copies of public domain books (we purchase a lot of those at my job) which are easily available for free download in totally legal places like google books and others:
they make business, they are offering (and cutting some profit) of a "free product" (which they did not even author, so no creative workforce involved) because some people like or need a hardcopy: to deposit at the library, to read in bed, to read at the WC, as Nick pointed, etc.The customer pays for that because he wants it; the customer saves money when compared to house-printing a pdf (I was not comparing costs, just noting that printing certain pdfs at home, if you want or need a hardcopy is going to be pricier than purchasing it from the publisher).
I have not problem with profit as I am being provided with something I would like to have. Call me old fashioned, but I like having my basic gaming manuals on paper (supplements and such I can live with on pdf, fortunately for my savings). Actually, that seems a good option: hardcopies can produce more "reading situations" and hence more feedback.
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Interview with Joseph Goodman over at KQ, where he addresses his comments -- and the reaction -- on the business side of rpgs.
Interview with Joseph Goodman over at KQ, where he addresses his comments -- and the reaction -- on the business side of rpgs.
You should probably start a new thread instead of ressurecting this one. Just sayin...
Certainly a weird place to post this interview but it was an interesting interview.