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Oh! That's interesting!
Joe Goodman on Dungeon Crawl Classics for 4E
Special guest Joseph Goodman of Goodman Games gives us the scoop on the future of Dungeon Crawl Classics, featuring some customized fired-up licensing tricks. Approx. 45 minutes, with some discussion of the West End Games sale about 30 min. in. More complete show notes to come..
Go Goodman.
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Oh! That's interesting!
Joe Goodman on Dungeon Crawl Classics for 4E
Special guest Joseph Goodman of Goodman Games gives us the scoop on the future of Dungeon Crawl Classics, featuring some customized fired-up licensing tricks. Approx. 45 minutes, with some discussion of the West End Games sale about 30 min. in. More complete show notes to come..
What a nice trusting man. If only the people holding the contract were so nice. Goodman rallies behind the GSL, period.
Actually no. They're using OGL until the GSL goes live. After that, they go GSL. (about 9 minutes in)
:(
Actually no. They're using OGL until the GSL goes live. After that, they go GSL. (about 9 minutes in)
:(
Well, I guess that answers that mystery. Anyone able to transcript it for us non-speaker enhanced worker bees?
Still, it makes me wonder if GR can follow in Goodman's footsteps so that there can be a 4E Companion to Freeport.
Director of Brand Strategy
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What a nice trusting man. If only the people holding the contract were so nice. Goodman rallies behind the GSL, period.Oh! That's interesting!
Joe Goodman on Dungeon Crawl Classics for 4E
Special guest Joseph Goodman of Goodman Games gives us the scoop on the future of Dungeon Crawl Classics, featuring some customized fired-up licensing tricks. Approx. 45 minutes, with some discussion of the West End Games sale about 30 min. in. More complete show notes to come..
Publishing primarily adventures, I think Goodman is in a good position to not get screwed over by the GSL. If they were putting out a ton of new rules content, I think the situation would be otherwise.
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Actually no. They're using OGL until the GSL goes live. After that, they go GSL. (about 9 minutes in)
:(
Yes, the OGL is just a vehicle for him to get something together till he gets GSL material going. Overall, he has embraced the GSL. The GSL has very little effect on his market of creating adventures for 4th Edition. I think this follows the intent of the GSL. They want material that "goose steps" with their vision.
Cheers,
Zux
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My opinion: Goodman games has always wanted to be first with something, now is their chance. Unfortunately, their blind support for the GSL is distasteful, especially since Wizards of the Coast is damaging the 3PP community with their GSL failure, and damaging our game with their wonton destruction of the realms along with the video-esque incoherent, poor quality 4e. For these reasons, I find Goodman's zealous reaction to 4e distasteful, immature, and shows a strong level of insensitivity to our community. I've asked to be removed from all Goodman games advertisement email lists.
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My opinion: Goodman games has always wanted to be first with something, now is their chance. Unfortunately, their blind support for the GSL is distasteful, especially since Wizards of the Coast is damaging the 3PP community with their GSL failure, and damaging our game with their wonton destruction of the realms along with the video-esque incoherent, poor quality 4e. For these reasons, I find Goodman's zealous reaction to 4e distasteful, immature, and shows a strong level of insensitivity to our community. I've asked to be removed from all Goodman games advertisement email lists.
Grow up!
I can't believe this crap is stil being discussed, does nobody actually play? Or is it easier to b#&+*, moan and whine because you didn't get your own way?
4E is here, its D&D and if other companies want to play with wotc toys they can do so on their terms or buy their own!!!!
God, if Paizo can be mature enough to say hey not for us we'll do our own thing and let Wotc and those guys do theirs without throwing a screaming decade long hissy fit why can't the people wasting board space do the same?
I was toying with the idea of resubscribing to the pathfinder lines (I just love Paizo's stuff) and just converting it, however since I planned to use these boards to do that with others of like intent and they are being rendered useless by whiners and malcontents I don't see the point
Grow up!
I can't believe this crap is stil being discussed, does nobody actually play? Or is it easier to b*@#!, moan and whine because you didn't get your own way?
4E is here, its D&D and if other companies want to play with wotc toys they can do so on their terms or buy their own!!!!
God, if Paizo can be mature enough to say hey not for us we'll do our own thing and let Wotc and those guys do theirs without throwing a screaming decade long hissy fit why can't the people wasting board space do the same?
I was toying with the idea of resubscribing to the pathfinder lines (I just love Paizo's stuff) and just converting it, however since I planned to use these boards to do that with others of like intent and they are being rendered useless by whiners and malcontents I don't see the point
Ironically, this is the most immature and over the top post I've seen here in a week or two. Things have started to settle down, at least in terms of the inflammatory language.
Horus, if you compare your post to the one you are complaining about I think you'll see that yours is much, much worse in terms of tone and language.
I was toying with the idea of resubscribing to the pathfinder lines (I just love Paizo's stuff) and just converting it, however since I planned to use these boards to do that with others of like intent and they are being rendered useless by whiners and malcontents I don't see the point
So you love Paizo's stuff, eh, but not enough to subscribe.... but you're happy enough to make use of the boards that are being rendered useless by whiners and malcontents. Interesting, interesting.
Personally, I don't agree with Pax, but what the heck, live and let live, I always say. Besides his subscription helps pay for these boards.
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I was toying with the idea of resubscribing to the pathfinder lines (I just love Paizo's stuff) and just converting it, however since I planned to use these boards to do that with others of like intent and they are being rendered useless by whiners and malcontents I don't see the pointSo you love Paizo's stuff, eh, but not enough to subscribe.... but you're happy enough to make use of the boards that are being rendered useless by whiners and malcontents. Interesting, interesting.
Personally, I don't agree with Pax, but what the heck, live and let live, I always say. Besides his subscription helps pay for these boards.
I was a full superscriber, but money issues (now resolved) forced me to cancel. I would happily resubscribe and support my favourite publisher but my intent would be to convert the material, however being a working grown up I'd like a little help (and I enjoy the discussions involved in converting), that's no longer possible here since any discussion will soon be turned into or forced from the page by a b$@~*fest about how 4E ruined someones life.
So do I buy Pathfinder stuff to sit on my shelf unused? Or do I end up going with my second option for campaign material?
I know what I want to do but that's just not realistically possible on these boards for the forseeable future. Strange as these are boards for discussing the 4E game.
Oh and I held/expressed the same opinion as a superscriber. Does that make it more or less valid?
...that's no longer possible here since any discussion will soon be turned into or forced from the page by a b@!&&fest about how 4E ruined someones life.
The Burnt Offerings conversion thread looks pretty good to me other than one stupid post from Razz. See, I just don't understand what this thread has to do with your not being able to convert because someone irrationally detests anything related to 4E, nor do I understand your dismissing Paizo and the boards because someone like that is around.
No hard feelings dude. I don't want to get into it with you. Personally, I just ignored Pax's comment. Do what you will.
Sorry for snarking on you so easy.
Ironically, this is the most immature and over the top post I've seen here in a week or two. Things have started to settle down, at least in terms of the inflammatory language.
Horus, if you compare your post to the one you are complaining about I think you'll see that yours is much, much worse in terms of tone and language.
Honestly Steer, Pax is slamming another company on Paizo's boards (which is pretty blatantly against this board's policy) for doing something he doesn't want them to do. Disagreeing with their choice is fine but declaring it immature is silly, and worse than any offense Horus might have perpetrated in calling Pax on it.
It seems this board has cooled off a lot recently, but mostly because of depopulation. Not much to flame about when few people are really here to read it. Ah well.
Edit: Just to be clear, I think ignoring Pax is probably the best. Engaging with him will just encourage him to post more. Trolls are best left to starve (it's hard to burn them over the 'net) :)
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Unfortunately there are a few people that think it's awesome to rag on 4th ed. and anyone who plays. I think it's great that the small gamer community can get fragmented to such a large degree because we like *different* versions of the same game.
And the forums are a good little form of advertising, by providing a forum Paizo benefits from bringing potential and existing customers into their site. It's an incredibly good thing to bring in 4th ed players, seeing as they may be customers someday soon.
I was just flipping through a friends 4th ed PHB today. I doubt I'll be switching but it could be fun to give it a go sometime.
As to Goodman games, since they pretty much just to adventures then of course they're going to go 4th edition. I don't see them having much of a choice.
Unfortunately there are a few people that think it's awesome to rag on 4th ed. and anyone who plays. I think it's great that the small gamer community can get fragmented to such a large degree because we like *different* versions of the same game.
People have been killing each other over a different choice of the same thing for all of history (and probably most of the stuff before that). What we really need is a good robot apocalypse to bring us together. Nothing says we can play DnD together, whatever the edition, like a Terminator outside your door.
Cheers! :P
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Contributor
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Unfortunately there are a few people that think it's awesome to rag on 4th ed. and anyone who plays. I think it's great that the small gamer community can get fragmented to such a large degree because we like *different* versions of the same game.People have been killing each other over a different choice of the same thing for all of history (and probably most of the stuff before that). What we really need is a good robot apocalypse to bring us together. Nothing says we can play DnD together, whatever the edition, like a Terminator outside your door.
Cheers! :P
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***Sigh***
My apologies if I offended anyone. It's just a little frustrating, I keep taking extended breaks only to come back and see the same crap regurgitated.
I wouldn't go and rag on someone else's game of choice or do my best to render it impossible to discuss civilly just because it;s not my cup of tea, am I of an alien mindset to expect the same courtesy from others?
There have been and are some excellent and constructive(TM) discussions but look where they end up......
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half way down the page or off screen.
However that said I'm not going to punish Paizo or myself by missing out on their fantastic products,I'll be getting them locally not as a subscriber, the international fees were killing me, especially if my order slipped over £30-£35 quid.
Anyway I digress so again I apologise, especially to Pax as it appeared I was singling him out. That was not the case.
People have been killing each other over a different choice of the same thing for all of history (and probably most of the stuff before that). What we really need is a good robot apocalypse to bring us together. Nothing says we can play DnD together, whatever the edition, like a Terminator outside your door.
Cheers! :P
So if Steve Jackson Games launched a military offensive against WotC, Paizo, and any other GSL or OGL companies, we'd all come together and sing kumbaiya!
:)
f+%+in A
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***Sigh***
My apologies if I offended anyone. It's just a little frustrating, I keep taking extended breaks only to come back and see the same crap regurgitated.
Poor Horus, caught in the apology trap that I had to go through. Honestly Horus, I do not think anyone would interfere with your desire to do conversions. This particular post is about "GSL", "4th Edition", "3PP", "Goodman Games".
These particular topics are attracting flames for controversial moths. You defintely could expect some irksome posters at this thread. I think serious conversion work would have no such "flame bait". I understand if us Paizo Fanatics and Anti-4th Editioners are repressive and a little boisterous, but in this particular thread, you know those opinions will come out. I think once you get the right people under your conversion threads, this will all appear like garbage in comparison to what you will be working on. I do not want to make you feel like you are being parred off and told not to post your feelings on this thread. I am still smarting from your last comment to one of my posts some months ago.
Peace Out,
Zux
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Director of Game Development
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I've asked to be removed from all Goodman games advertisement email lists.
This post has nothing to do with being inflammatory or aggressive in the slightest, but I think you perhaps should reconsider your position, as Goodman has launched a new line of System Neutral products that you may miss out on, if of course, they apply to your particular style of play.
Edit: My post isn't entirely on topic and is slightly peripheral.
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***Sigh***
My apologies if I offended anyone. It's just a little frustrating, I keep taking extended breaks only to come back and see the same crap regurgitated.
Poor Horus, caught in the apology trap that I had to go through. Honestly Horus, I do not think anyone would interfere with your desire to do conversions. This particular post is about "GSL", "4th Edition", "3PP", "Goodman Games".
These particular topics are attracting flames for controversial moths. You defintely could expect some irksome posters at this thread. I think serious conversion work would have no such "flame bait". I understand if us Paizo Fanatics and Anti-4th Editioners are repressive and a little boisterous, but in this particular thread, you know those opinions will come out. I think once you get the right people under your conversion threads, this will all appear like garbage in comparison to what you will be working on. I do not want to make you feel like you are being parred off and told not to post your feelings on this thread. I am still smarting from your last comment to one of my posts some months ago.
Peace Out,
Zux
It's my own fault, I have a tendency to let things build then snap and overreact. I don't want everyone to like 4E, I consider uniformity a monstrous sin, but acceptance that people do (or don't) would be nice.
Sadly, for me at least, when doing a conversion I want feedback from fans of the original. I think it keeps the conversion honest for want of a better term. Unfortunately that seems a pipe dream.
That said moaning is not constructive(TM) and after my holiday I think I'll get back on the conversion train starting with the Crimson Throne.
To the point of this thread however, I'm not a huge fan of the GSL. It really doesn't promote the game well, a huge amount of 3PP was absolute pap but the good stuff was....well, good! And often it's these other products that draw the diehard indie crowd over the fence.
However I think Goodman has made a good move, his bread and butter are adventure modules so I think he is unlikely IMHO to come out of this smelling of anything but Roses. And his products are a solid gold star+ for 4E fans.
Given the opportunity he could very well become the 4E Paizo, at least in regards to where fans shop for adventures.
Imho Goodman Games are not anywhere near as good with adventure design (or as professional generally as regards art, production values, etc etc) - sure I've used and enjoyed a handful of the bread-and-butter DCC modules, but none without major rework first, and the art has always been '1e feel' in that it was pretty patchy quality wise to say the least. Others from the series I checked out frankly looked to be unplayable and extremely amateurish.
I may still pick up some of these system neutral stuff, and I bear the company no ill will (unlike the evil Empire of wotc).
So to sum up, this one's a bit of a flat argument for me, beyond stating firmly that if Goodman are WotC's best adventure producers ... then that is not setting a particulaly high bar for future 4e adventures.
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So to sum up, this one's a bit of a flat argument for me, beyond stating firmly that if Goodman are WotC's best adventure producers ... then that is not setting a particulaly high bar for future 4e adventures.
There are some stuff I like from Goodman games... Their adventures are not part of that...
But that said.. the GSL is not that bad for just Fluff products.. Like Adventures..
Once you get into Crunch, that is when the GSL becomes harmful.
But it is sad that anyone using their GSL has to Mulch all their 3.0/3.5 products that are part of the same line... especially products that could still make money for the company.
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Kruelaid is right, I haven't seen much noise at the existing conversion threads so far. It is easy to ignore those threads (if you dislike 4E that is) and because there's no discussion about the advantages or disadvantages regarding 3E and 4E it seems that most people are understanding enough to stay on topic there (and not to chime in if they have nothing meaningful to add).
Besides, while it can get ugly really fast in this special subforum, the paizo crowd is usually very relaxed and friendly in the other parts of the boards. If shoutings start it is usually about more meaningful topics (gay paladins, scantily clad woman, Nick vs. Rich, Heathy vs. Sebastian and such things ;))
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Don't get me wrong Goodman is no Paizo but given that Paizo is not going 4E this is Goodman's opportunity to move up the ladder, so to speak.
As to their quality, from my admittedly limited exposure they seem quite nice if going for a specific style. However now is their opportunity to really put out some top notch stuff and in danger of repeating myself become the 4E Paizo.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've asked to be removed from all Goodman games advertisement email lists.This post has nothing to do with being inflammatory or aggressive in the slightest, but I think you perhaps should reconsider your position, as Goodman has launched a new line of System Neutral products that you may miss out on, if of course, they apply to your particular style of play.
Edit: My post isn't entirely on topic and is slightly peripheral.
Oooh, thanks Daigle. I've GM Gems, I didn't know about the others. Points of Light doesn't appeal to me, but PC Pearls definately does.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've avoided the conversion threads myself because a) I've no need of them and b) I don't know enough about 4x to contribute productively (Last thing you need is more snarky comments)
As to 4.x threads like this, yes I do have a vested interest in the GSL and how it affects the OGL product. I've a fair assortment of Goodman Games adventures (and am trying to get a fellow DM to run Castle Whiterock for us) and they basically do what they say on the tin, encounters are to be killed not socialised with. From what I hear about 4.x it seems to be a good fit.
I hope that the players of 4.x are able to get high quality product. We know there are/were freelancers who we look forward to our 3.x product offerings (Nick, Ari, Greg). I just want to make sure WotC doesn't go to war against the 3.x product. Pathfinder/Mutants and Masterminds/Spycraft don't have to be D&D to be successful* they can coexist, but I don't know of WotC suits see it that way.
*Conan, Babalyon 5, Firefly, BSG, Supernatural, etc do need to be more successful than Pathfinder, since they've licenses to satisfy
There are some stuff I like from Goodman games... Their adventures are not part of that...
But that said.. the GSL is not that bad for just Fluff products.. Like Adventures..
Once you get into Crunch, that is when the GSL becomes harmful.
But it is sad that anyone using their GSL has to Mulch all their 3.0/3.5 products that are part of the same line... especially products that could still make money for the company.
Technically they are allowed to sell off 3E books already printed, so it is doubtful any books will actually be pulped.
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There have been and are some excellent and constructive(TM) discussions but look where they end up.......
I enthusiastically play both. You just have to keep your head above it and not be partisan.
I use these forums as a resouirce and have helped convert several products over.
I think the Paizo stuff translates very well in 4.0 and has the richest narrative texture of any RPG product on the market. So, hey. I am here for you brother.
Just rein in your sense of moral outrage. That's what politics are for...
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Imho if Goodman are WotC's best adventure producers ... then that is not setting a particulaly high bar for future 4e adventures.Hahah, brutal. But good stuff.
Cheers,
Zux
Joe Goodman is a great person and I appreciate what he has tried to do with his line, but it's just not that good.
I have 8 different modules of his and none of them has ever made it into play. When I started converting stuff over, I never even considered working with his product.
Goodman Games probabaly has no choice but to go GSL. They cannot compete with Paizo in writing quality or with physical quality. Strategically, this is their chance to rebrand and grab a new position in the market. I wish them luck.
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What a nice trusting man. If only the people holding the contract were so nice.
So when exactly did WotC ever act in a not so nice manner?
Oh, and before you pull out the end of Dragon and Dungeon thang - that was a license that ended and they had every legal, moral, and ethical right to end it. It was not a good choice IMHO but it was not bad behavior.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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What a nice trusting man. If only the people holding the contract were so nice.So when exactly did WotC ever act in a not so nice manner?
Oh, and before you pull out the end of Dragon and Dungeon thang - that was a license that ended and they had every legal, moral, and ethical right to end it. It was not a good choice IMHO but it was not bad behavior.
Not that I'm against threadromancy, but CWM, why reply to a question almost a month old?
The potential for malice has been beaten to death quite extensively. And with a revised GSL in the pipeline, I don't see the point in bringing this up again until we see the 'new and improved' GSL.
Maybe this isn't the right thread for this and maybe I'll make myself look like a real douche for asking, but I can't resist: what the heck is OGL and GSL and how do they differ? I've tried to read up on them, but it's kind of confusing. Am I the only one a little lost in this?
OGL = Open Gaming License, this is what 3E runs on.
GSL = Gaming System License, this is what 4E runs on.
The OGL is very, very open, giving whoever wants open and free access to the 3E rule-set to create what they want. Paizo's Pathfinder is built off of the OGL, as is Mutants and Masterminds, Conan, Arcana Unearthed, and several other stand-alone games (Spycraft, maybe, definitely Everquest and World of Warcraft the RPG).
Coming out with 4E, WotC felt the OGL was too open and moved to restrict precisely what could be done with it. The GSL is still free to use, but places much stronger restrictions on what can and can't be done with it. One of the more controversial provisions is that you can't produce a product line with both OGL and GSL using products. Currently, however, the GSL is being revised to be more open, so we don't really know what it'll end up looking like.
Feel up to speed? :)
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What a nice trusting man. If only the people holding the contract were so nice.So when exactly did WotC ever act in a not so nice manner?
Oh, and before you pull out the end of Dragon and Dungeon thang - that was a license that ended and they had every legal, moral, and ethical right to end it. It was not a good choice IMHO but it was not bad behavior.
Not that I'm against threadromancy, but CWM, why reply to a question almost a month old?
The potential for malice has been beaten to death quite extensively. And with a revised GSL in the pipeline, I don't see the point in bringing this up again until we see the 'new and improved' GSL.
Sorry. Did not see how old the post was.
It just bugs me that WotC (or any other game company) gets bashed for no apparent reason.
I wish people would just admit that they do not like the game without seeking justification by tilting at windmills.
I wish people would just admit that they do not like the game without seeking justification by tilting at windmills.
How can you be sure they aren't monstrous giants of infamous repute, with four great arms whirling at their back though? :P
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What a nice trusting man. If only the people holding the contract were so nice.So when exactly did WotC ever act in a not so nice manner?
Oh, and before you pull out the end of Dragon and Dungeon thang - that was a license that ended and they had every legal, moral, and ethical right to end it. It was not a good choice IMHO but it was not bad behavior.
I would call depriving fans of cherished icons that they looked forward to receiving and reading every month "bad behavior". At the very least, it was extremely non-customer friendly behavior. Depriving Paizo of one of their main product lines wasn't too nice either. Sure, they had a legal right to do it, but it still hosed a lot of people.
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OGL = Open Gaming License, this is what 3E runs on.
GSL = Gaming System License, this is what 4E runs on.
The OGL is very, very open, giving whoever wants open and free access to the 3E rule-set to create what they want. Paizo's Pathfinder is built off of the OGL, as is Mutants and Masterminds, Conan, Arcana Unearthed, and several other stand-alone games (Spycraft, maybe, definitely Everquest and World of Warcraft the RPG).
Coming out with 4E, WotC felt the OGL was too open and moved to restrict precisely what could be done with it. The GSL is still free to use, but places much stronger restrictions on what can and can't be done with it. One of the more controversial provisions is that you can't produce a product line with both OGL and GSL using products. Currently, however, the GSL is being revised to be more open, so we don't really know what it'll end up looking like.
Feel up to speed? :)
Hanging head in shame...
That was very easy to understand and very well presented. Thanks a lot, I feel up to speed now. It seems to me, however, that WotC would want to make the GSL more open so that more people would play and more people would, in the end, buy more of their products.
Hanging head in shame...
That was very easy to understand and very well presented. Thanks a lot, I feel up to speed now. It seems to me, however, that WotC would want to make the GSL more open so that more people would play and more people would, in the end, buy more of their products.
Heh, no need to hang your head. This has been debated to death many times, and probably spawned more pages of discussion than many people's thesises (certainly more than mine currently ...)
As to whether WotC is making the right decision in making the GSL more restrictive, well everyone has a different opinion on that matter. Some people agree with you, some agree with WotC.
Personally, I think they went a little too far with the GSL as it currently stands (so I'm happy they're revising it!) but I can see where games like Conan, EQ, or WoW kinda cheesed them off using the rules from the OGL wholesale and not really requiring any investment into any of their stuff.
Cheers! :)
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but you see that's the problem,
You just made bad, unlikeable behaviour. Your acting badly right now because your annoying other people (depriving people of their ability to discuss their cherished game without some guy tilting at windmills.)
You don't speak for the people, I don't remember voting for you, or even an election of any kind. Lots of us are happy with the changes, including the changes to dungeons and dragons, and if your biggest gripe is omg a licence that was temporary (no matter how long it was actually in affect) was ended pretty amicably by both side (as I seem to recall various people saying, even to the point where WotC is okay with being the "monolateral badguy" in what was a business relation and decision to end it.
But hey thanks anyway, I'm not interested buhbye
Logos
Well, a lot of people have been deprived of a product that they looked forward to receiving every month. Some had been collecting them for 20 or more years. It ticked off a lot of people. I have a right to be ticked off about it, and you have the right to ignore my post and move on if you don't agree.