And that's what's kind of fun about modern cinema, the gender role subversion. We get to see the exact opposite. Buffy is the 'action hero.' Xander is the cringing guy clutching a man-purse behind her, and Giles is her often-knocked-out and sometimes-captured 'emotional support.'
[thread jack]
I think that you're being a trifle unfair here.In an interesting point of fact, Xander saves the world from a villain's vengeance through nonviolent means in its first season after 9/11. (Contrast this with series like 24...) In addition, he plays an important role in saving the world in season one, season three (twice), and in season four. Plus, it does take a heck of a lot of courage to go into these kinds of battles with no super powers whatsoever. That's my kind of stupid. He could be a PC in my party any day.
As for Giles, remember how bad-ass he is in the season finale of five and six as well. [/thread jack]
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How could I possibly forget her:
Col. Samantha Carter (Stargate SG-1)
Probably one of most well-written female characters I've ever seen.
Want any proof, watch the new movie Continuum:
In the alternate timeline, O'Neill (a man she loves) gets killed right in front of her. After about a minute of shock. Col. Mitchell tells her he needs her with them, she says "Yes, sir." and is right back into it.
Col. Samantha Carter (Stargate SG-1)
Probably one of most well-written female characters I've ever seen.
hear hear!
Oh God. And the stammering indecisive JRPG love interest...
True for more than just the JRPG. Most of the time, capable women are strong, confident, sexual, alluring, and EVIL. If they are good, they are purely defensive/healer characters. Deedlit (from the novels and the second anime series) and Lina Inverse are rare exceptions.
If only Troy McClure's book "Get Confident, Stupid!" were actually in print in those universes.
Mikaze for the win!
Sethra Lavode from Steven Brust's Dragaera series.
Seconded!
How could I possibly forget her:
Col. Samantha Carter (Stargate SG-1)
Probably one of most well-written female characters I've ever seen.
Want any proof, watch the new movie Continuum:
** spoiler omitted **
Definitely! Smart, tough, and still showed a sense of humor. Not caught up the 'I have to look/act/sound this way' thing.
Sethra Lavode from Steven Brust's Dragaera series.Seconded!
I like Tazendra.
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You like Angela Carter at all? She's one of my favorites.
I'm not all that familiar with her. A colleague gave me a copy of Wise Children(?) a handful of years ago but I never got a chance to read it. During that conversation (so long ago, in which my old friend recommended her to me, another colleague jumped in and said something like, Naw, she's just a waana-be Anne Sexton -- 'cept she writes fiction, but I really don't know if he was being serious. I think he said it in play to rile up a couple Feminists.
You tell me, should I read Wise Children(?) or is there perhaps something else I should pick up?
-W. E. Ray
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And that's what's kind of fun about modern cinema, . . . etc., etc.
Ain't it great that we as a society have come this far? Where contemporary mass media: cinema, TV shows, commercial advertisements, mass-market paperbacks, etc. play with gender roles not as an artistic medium but as an avenue to stay PC and at the same time stifle (and educate) those last few havens of gross ignorance and sexism!
Of course, in my post I was just making fun of how pathetic baby Anakin is in Star Wars I.
One day, perhaps the notion of 'male roles' or 'female roles' will be as rare as hen's teeth.
Here you're (rightfully) wrong. There are significant and important differences between the genders. And that is okay. Look at early childhood behavior. Four-year-olds distinctly recognize gender differences, as do their caretakers. I was amazed with the truths I learned when editing a very good friend's EdD dissertation on Early Childhood gender roles.
-W. E. Ray
It's not an awful time to be alive, if you want to see some balanced, or even *reversed* gender presentations. One day, perhaps the notion of 'male roles' or 'female roles' will be as rare as hen's teeth.
Unlikely, but still an ideal to aim for. Male and female gender are no mere social constructs, but the idea that they are clearly distinct is. The point is, that all genders should be equal in what is expected and accepted of a person.
Science of gender currently is about as advanced, that they can say, that they don't know how it works. But upringing and society play as much a part as does brain patterns and hormones, so thtere's also always a genetic component.Personally, I'm even more interested in characters that don't fall easily into the male/female patterns, and with those I don't mean fluffy gay guys for comic relief.
But it's probably best to start small. Realistic women characters are a good start. ^^
You tell me, should I read Wise Children(?) or is there perhaps something else I should pick up?
-W. E. Ray
You can pick up a copy of her short story compilation called The Bloody Chamber. That's a good one for someone who also likes Fantasy.
One of my favorites in that collection is called Wolf Alice, which is also available here (if you don't mind reading the screen or printing):
Also good in that compilation are the Erl-King, Company Wolves, and the title story The Bloody Chamber, which is essentially a re-telling of Bluebeard.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Nobody has mentioned Y The Last Man yet? A comic book that only had two male characters in it? And one of them is a monkey? Am I the only one who thought that 355 was freakin' awesome?
You are not the only one. She is another object of my lust who could break me in pieces. Maybe I should see someone about this.
When I picked up that comic -- the premise of which was all the men in the world die except for one and he's at the center of the story* -- I thought 'this could be bad' but it seems like an honest attempt to explore gender, power, violence, kindness, and cruelty.
*
Of course, as a teacher I find that if I have 30 women in the class and 1 man (other than me), he talks half the time so it didn't seem so unreasonable that when there were 2.5 billion women and 1 man, he would be talking half the time.
One of my favorites in that collection is called Wolf Alice, which is also available here (if you don't mind reading the screen or printing):
Thank you so much! I took an Intro. to Folklore class this summer and a part of that story was one of our assigned readings. I intend to look up "In the Company of Wolves" (at least, that was what was on our printout) for the rest of whatever it contains. Undoubtedly good reading to be had.
As for my favorite characters that I think are the best--
I can't remember the name of the ship from "The Ship who Searched" (Tia, was it?), but she's up there. Del as well, though she's been pointed out already. I liked Poledra more than Polgara, though.
Deunan Knute from "Appleseed ex Machina"
And I believe Lt. Karrin Murphy from "The Dresden Files" has been pointed out, yes?
Nothing else that either hasn't been said or qualifies, unfortunately. It seems my circles of entertainment don't point me towards strong women figures... I will put Gally of "Battle Angel Alita/Gunnm" fame out there for consideration, though.
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Lythande, by Marion Zimmer Bradley -- great independant character, with a dry sene of humor.
Cawti from the Teckla series -- strong, independant, and very feminine, and realistic how she acts in relationship that breaks down.
The Lady from the Black Company series -- she's lived for hundreds of years, had to do horrible things, and is still human underneath. Great villan turned protagonist.
While it's sci-fi, not fantasy, Arianhod from the Eisenhorn series is great.
What?!
No one has mentioned Hayao Mizake?
Princess Mononoke for crying out loud! To say nothing of Kushana from Nausicaä (the novel, anyway).
Sethra Lavode from Steven Brust's Dragaera series.
H**l's Yeah! ...
but what about that Kiera the Thief character... she's a pretty well "layered" character.
*snicker, giggle.
... And as far as the Anime/Manga arguement goes,
... if you can't find good, strong, independant females in anime, here are your two reasons.
Traditionally, the female in Japanese culture is protrayed as such because of the influence of thier various religions detailing the opposing forces dancing in harmony,
and, .. unfortunately, but more than likely, the type of manga/anime you're reading maybe in a different genre that the stories that encourage or are based on strong female characters.
Um... Andrea Andropolous, anyone? Aka Lotana (briefly) and "that evil wench who slept with Walter Slovotsky" (twice). Also from that series, Tennetty and the cook, I forget her name (as far as great supporting/NPC females go)
Alice Pleasance Liddel Hargreaves, the real world model for Alice in wonderland, as depicted by Philip Jose Farmer in the Riverworld series.
Lucy from Narnia.
one could go on. Perhaps there could be created elsewhere an "Oscars of Fantasy/Sci-Fi" with votes on different categories from setting to concept to best leading female to best supporting character etc..
Strange thing is, I see a lot more of them in mangas and anime than in american fiction (at least in the mangas I read).
and, .. unfortunately, but more than likely, the type of manga/anime you're reading maybe in a different genre that the stories that encourage or are based on strong female characters.
...ahem.
Danifae from War of the Spider Queen. Certainly not a good role model, as she's a completely crazy b!@$@, but most people will agree that she knows what she wants and has no reservations to do everything it takes to get it.
I also like Mara Jade (in the older books, before she got together with this whiny sissy). Not completely fantasy but close enough I would say. Again, a bit crazy at first, but absolutely kick ass from the very beginning.
...ahem.
and, .. unfortunately, but more than likely, the type of manga/anime you're reading maybe in a different genre that the stories that encourage or are based on strong female characters.
*blows raspberry * :P
I was trying to imply Shogen anime/manga vs shonen; silly. :)
that connotation is an entirely different subject. But one I won't get into.. being as how I'm a good, morale woman. ;)
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What type of characters do you prefer to play?
I have yet to play a female character, but I've GMed quite a few in my day. My litmus test is generally: "would any reasonable female consider this character the result of a mysoginistic mindset?" if not, I'll use them. If so, I retool the NPC until it's no longer mysogyinistic seeming or scrap it entirely. My female characters tend to be confident, chaste (or so far out of the PC's league it makes no difference), and extremely dangerous. A few favorites:
Vasilieth, CG redeemed erinyes devil and high priestess of Essellos, goddess of redemption. A very strong, yet still feminine woman. She aided the party numerous times, and was never a "damsel in distress". This was one of the few "sexy" NPCs I've ever created, and I tried very hard to make her classy and desirable in an unattainable way rather than seeming cheap.
Moriah Flatfoot, N Halfling merchant captain. A friendly and mischievous merchant who has hired my PCs as security on her vessel.
Seblyne, NE Gestalt blackguard//arcanist. A vicious seneschal of a cell belonging to the cult of an evil magic deity, she gave the PCs a hard run for their money.
"The Gunwoman" LN elite mercenary. Probably the single most dangerous NPC I have ever created. She hounded the PCs from the second session until one of the last of the previous campaign. Her femaleness ws incidental; she was more of a living weapon that could be pointed at troublesome targets than anything else.
Tenebria: CG drow bounty hunter. A character that my wife is currently playing, she's tremendously cool. The consummate professional and a lethal swordswoman, she also displays cute little moments of mischief and th occasional touching act of kindness.
Alexis J. Hastings: NG human journalist. A former PC of my wife's, she traveled the world picking up all kinds of intersting stories and publishing them in a publication not unlike the Pathfinder chronicles in Golarion. She never lost her sense of wonderment about things.
Which woman fantasy characters work for you?
Some favorites:
Kahlan Amnell (Sword of Truth), Leia Organa-Solo (Star Wars), Arabella Strange(Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrel), Lythande the Star-Browed (Thieves' World), Liz Sherman (Hellboy), Beauty (Beauty by Robin McKinley)
I like strong female characters with brains and confidence.
Which authors write women characters well?
Terry Goodkind
Tamora PierceSusanna Clarke
Mike Mignola
Robert Asprin & Lynn Abbey
Robin McKinley
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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ah, if we're in comics, yes I love the New Mutants.
Dani, was strong and confident as a leader, even though she had a meh power.
Rahne, was the wallflower, the one who was afraid of her powers and what they meant.
Illyana, Oh my first comic book love :-) Having that beautiful outside and the dark part of her offering power with the promise of corruption. Since I always had a burning rage in me that was so destructove (depression caused) but didn't know why, she resonated with me.
Karma, the 'big sister' who had more experience, but more pressures.
And Amara, the bold Roman princess, so skilled in her environment and yet so out of her place in the modern world. I always loved the 'not quite relationship' between her and Sam.
Marvel seems to have learned how to take everything they touch in the comics and turn it to crap.
And yes, Asgard Wars was the New Mutants at their best. Though the X-men vs. Alpha Flight was good too. I wondered if Rachel could have taken down the entire flight by herself. :-)
Speaking of comics, how about Heather Hudson (the original, not the exiles version)
You guys are killing me, here.
I can't believe no one has mentioned JIREL OF JOIRY, the very first female sword and sorcery character and one of the finest women ever to wield a blade!
Jirel is good. But ...
REH's Dark Agnes killed her "fat pig" of a husband Francois at the altar in front of the priest with just a dagger tucked in her bosom. None too shabby with a short sharp blade, I'd say.
Maybe Dagney Taggart in Atlas Shrugged. That's basically speculative fiction.
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Despite the series getting downright pornographic and incredibly dry(sometimes simultaneously) at times, Artesia really grew on me. She's really made for a believable "Lady of War" in the terms of her setting.
To make a really half-assed comparison: think Jirel of Joiry crossed with the Lady from Black Company.
Nobody has mentioned Y The Last Man yet? A comic book that only had two male characters in it? And one of them is a monkey? Am I the only one who thought that 355 was freakin' awesome?
355 is made of love, win, CQC, and naivety about the content of modern comic books. I've just been putting off finishing the last three or so volumes of Y because I don't want it to be over so soon.
Speaking of comics, how about Heather Hudson (the original, not the exiles version)
Liked her too, more than her husband. Both versions really. But it's hard to compete against Puck when it comes to favorite Flight members.
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ok half of my chars are female, what i prefer either strong willed, quick witted, fast footed, no-nonsense heroines or light-hearted idealistic, but again quick witted.
favorites... to many to remember actually... but one of the most recentes Merisiel (even if i am lacking any intel on her), and even more recentely Seelah (after reading her background who someone kidly pointed to me to get more information in Iomedae)
Favorites chars that come to mind:
*Natasha Romanova (specially the one in Ultimates... snif i hated what happened to her in Ultimates 2... but she deserved it)
*Nova (Starcraft: Ghost, she is idealitic and heroic in a gritty environment that answer badly to heroics)
*Irena Kolyana (from House of Strahd, from Ravenloft, she was Innocent, but brave, even if a bit of damsel in distress... well meeting Strahd von Zarovich EVERYONE is a Damsel in Distress)
*Motoko Kusanagi (Ghost in the Shell, because she takes bullshit from no one but her boss and she is an awesome fighter)
*Lucita (Vampire: The Masquerade, quick witted, beautiful, deadly)
*Clade (Claymore Anime, strong, silent, more interested in understanding how things flow than just being strong, caring)
*Aeon Flux (strong, independent, cool, deadly, i don't care what they say, i loved the movie :D)
*RE-1 Mayer (o Lol Mayer from Ergo Proxy... ok she b$*#+ a lot, she is troublesome, but i don't love her less for that)
*Alicia (Bulletwitch, moody, silent, depressed, with all the problems of the world weighting over her shoulders... she still goes and does the job)
*Ayane (Dear or Alive Series, ok she is the pariah, the one made aside, and even then she follows her duty to whatever extreme is needed)
Taki (Soulcaliburn, Ninja wih a duty)
*Regina Blake (Vampire: Victorian Age Trilogy, young, naive, adventurous... learns the bad way you shouls not be too curious about a few things... an excellent Mature excene where she is "almost" sacrificed)
*Lilith (from the Exalted line from WW)
*Jordan (from meeting Jordan, cool forensic, no nonsense, she takes what she wants no matter what, and solves the problem and saves the guy)
*Faith (from buffy, she is cooler than buffy)
Those are the ones that come easy to mind :P
Authors between many i like Kathleen Ryan, Karen Traviss (wow, wonderful job in Republic Commandos, it has a great female secundary character that works for the treasury and falls for a NULL... but can't remember her name.)
What Female characters i am using right now:
in a "Heroes Game" Natalia Castillo, a Psyquic with ESP and Pyrokinesis, whose father was in the army and gave her discipline to control such powers she inherited from him (he was part of an experiment but never achieved as much power as she did). She is still a bit naive, she tries to do good, she even began to use rubber bullets when the opinion of those she care where against the vigilante, but still she is dead serious when she is in a mission, she gets all the infromation she need, plans with at least 2 options and surprise her rivals... right now the low life in the city sees her as their bogeyman, she would were clothes similar to those used by Selene in Underworld, but just one handgun, army made, with silencer and her only inheritance from her father (her sister got the car, both of them think they got the better deal and the other one got the scraps)
now for Paizo today we begin a new game, I have Jordan Fenix, a Cleric of Iomedae, she is not exactly nave, but she is good hearted, she tries to see the ebst in things and in people, but she knows when you are lying and you are about to betray her, she tries to show people that there is light even in the darkes places... but if there is none... her job is to take a ligh there.. usually with fire and sword, and she won't stop untill the evil that plagues people and hurts innocents, is dead, surrenders or she herself is killed.
and maybe for a future game with another game master Juleihda, an elven Bard, she thinks of her as a merchant and a future captain, alas she stole a vessel when her family tried to get her married with her childhood friend (hey she likes it and she may even marry him, but not right now), she is intentd in making a profit, learing the ropes of sailing and commerce and began her own company... but while she is on that her brother forces her in a quest of tomb raiding and adventure (all for the sake of getting enough money to finance herself)
she is not greedy... she just want to succed in this... and she doesn't want to be forced into a path of someone else choice... (exactly why she b#&+#es all the time to her brother about the tomb raiding)
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In D&D: My wife's 11th lvl Fighter (straight fighter..no PrC!) Ruebee Cole. She roleplays her as a calm, controller warrior who will disembowel you in a single moment if you look at her wrong or mess with her family (Myself and her sister-in-law). B A D A $ $.
In Comics: Emma Frost (The White Queen). Her dialog is some of the best ever. Scarlett in G.I. Joe was good too.
In Literature: Mara Jade.
TV: Gotta go with Leela on Futurama
How many of these works pass the Bechdel test?
1. It has to have at least two women in it,
2. Who talk to each other,
3. About something besides a man or babies or commiserate over their lack of same.
Buffy, Firefly, and BSG pass this test with flying colors, although not so much with Angel, interestingly.
But Angel has very few characters and a lot of them don't even know each other, their only conection is Angel. So it's not too surprising.
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*waits foe the feminazis to show up*
Nope not saying a word, I learned my lesson. Anything slightly politically incorrect will bring down the feminazis on you hard.
Femanazis? Wow yer cool man. Clever too.
But my bitter sarcasm aside some of my Fave Fantasy Femmes are as follows.
-Liriel Baenre, the drow heroine from Elaine Cunnigham's excellent "Starlight and Shadows" Trilogy.
-Ayra Stark, from George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series.
Kay I know the next bunch strays from the Fantasy genre but so sue me.
Storm of the X-Men.
Tara Maclay from BTVS.
Dr. Juliet Parrish, from "V the Series" and related movies. Yeah my geekdom goes that far back.
Rowyn Shepard, my character from the XBOX 360 game Mass Effect. Voiced by another heroine of mine the uber fabulous Jennifer Hale.
Pa'u Zotoh Zhaan, from Farscape series.
Tank girl by Alan Martin
Artesia by Mark Smylie
'Grimm' Ferris by Mark Smylie
Tank girl by Alan Martin
Artesia by Mark Smylie
'Grimm' Ferris by Mark Smylie
You are the only other person I've seen on any message board I frequent that reads Artesia.
I do need to learn more of this Grimm Ferris though, on account of the Smylie.
Ferris is a character from Artesia. I don't know how much you have read, but ferris is a axe weilding psycho and a priestess of hathhalla the sun lioness. Hathhalla is a goddess of vengance, whom, appeared to artesia, as a portent that King Brans harrem, which contained her closest friends and lovers, had been slain by the agallite witchhunters.
Ferris acts as a voice of causion and warning, always seeing the worst outcomes, which is where she gets the nickname grim.During the seige of Dara Dess, where artesia becomes queen in all but name, it is ferris who is tasked with hunting down and killing the agallites and the priests of the divine king.
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Tank girl by Alan Martin
Artesia by Mark Smylie
'Grimm' Ferris by Mark Smylie
You are the only other person I've seen on any message board I frequent that reads Artesia.
I do need to learn more of this Grimm Ferris though, on account of the Smylie.
Ferris is a character from Artesia. I don't know how much you have read, but ferris is a axe weilding psycho and a priestess of hathhalla the sun lioness. Hathhalla is a goddess of vengance, whom, appeared to artesia, as a portent that King Brans harrem, which contained her closest friends and lovers, had been slain by the agallite witchhunters.
Ferris acts as a voice of causion and warning, always seeing the worst outcomes, which is where she gets the nickname grim.
During the seige of Dara Dess, where artesia becomes queen in all but name, it is ferris who is tasked with hunting down and killing the agallites and the priests of the divine king.
Damnation! You got my hopes up for a spin-off of some sort! (the way it was worded and whatnot)
And I've read the first three volumes. Still waiting for the first of the second batch of trades to hit. Gotta love the series for putting both genders in mostly practical armor AND dishing out the horrors of war to them equally.
Its a great series, full of very cool characters, i don't understand why it isn't better known and well loved
