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My guesses for the included iconics:
Kyra, the cleric. Sarenrae features as the good deity in the issue with Chapter 2, so we finaly learn what prestige class a cleric with Iron Will gets. Plus, you can't have a desert campaign without scimitar weilding heroes, so it's either her or Seltyiel, and he's probably too dark for the tone this one sounds like, even if he hadn't been in the AP right before it. She's in.
Lem, the bard. The early enemies are slavers, and Chapter 1 looks like it has plenty of social opportunities, like Sandpoint. There's also the Sinbad voyaging JJ mentioned in the chat, and he looks like he belongs on a boat. Given his background, he seems like a likely pick.
Merisiel, the rogue. The sands and seas are good matches thematically for her sort of fighting style. She's also originally from Riddleport. The pigeonhole principle guarantees that at least two of the four must have been together in one of the 3 previous APs, and I consider Valeros and Seoni to be out since their art is the most often used.
The last pick is a little tougher, since you have to wonder if the Second Darkness foursome are eligible. Amiri grew up next door to the Vikings, but she herself is a brunette, and I can't imagine her swinging over in a boarding action. You'd need one rope for her, and one for her ballast-piece. She's out. Likewise, Lini will have to wait for another campaign to go gather cedar for her stick collection. Since there's several forests in 2nd Darkness, I suspect she gets plenty of appearences and we'll have had enough of her. I also hope they save Lini for some madness in Galt someday. I don't think Seltyiel works, since the tone doesn't sound like it welcomes an evil PC. That leaves Ezren, Harsk, Seelah, and Sajan. I could see Harsk being useful for the first couple of adventures, but I doubt this one fits Ezren. Sajan has the fighting style and costume to fit in, like Merisiel. There's also a decent chance they call on Jalmeray, so there could be an article to tie into Vudra. Seelah, while her background is a good fit, has too much armor.
My four: Kyra, Lem, Merisiel, and Sajan, though I wouldn't be surprised if Harsk edged out Sajan or even Merisiel.
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Sajan? That'd leave no fighter-type in the group. A monk is no substitute for a true warrior. Harsk or even Seelah will be in there before Sajan will.
I agree the Monk is not a fighter replacement; Kyra is. Sajan is the rogue-supplement in this group. My earlier complaints about her were on how melee she was. (That was why I was a vigorous proponent of having another cleric as the 12th, given that it wasn't going to be psionic.) The Bard is the CLW-monkey in this group. They make some odd picks at Paizo; they've had a Ranger in a city campaign and a druid in the underdark. Also, in a campaign focused on an ancient, mystical empire of wizards, the included PC arcanist had more ranks in cleavage than, say, Knowledge (Something Useful in Addiion to Arcana). In fact, that whole group was a little lacking in the Int. Valeros was the brains of the opperation!
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Sajan? That'd leave no fighter-type in the group. A monk is no substitute for a true warrior. Harsk or even Seelah will be in there before Sajan will.I agree the Monk is not a fighter replacement; Kyra is. Sajan is the rogue-supplement in this group. My earlier complaints about her were on how melee she was. (That was why I was a vigorous proponent of having another cleric as the 12th, given that it wasn't going to be psionic.) The Bard is the CLW-monkey in this group. They make some odd picks at Paizo; they've had a Ranger in a city campaign and a druid in the underdark. Also, in a campaign focused on an ancient, mystical empire of wizards, the included PC arcanist had more ranks in cleavage than, say, Knowledge (Something Useful in Addiion to Arcana). In fact, that whole group was a little lacking in the Int. Valeros was the brains of the opperation!
Kyra? Remember, this is going to be the first Pathfinder RPG Adventure Path, and PRPG tones down the Cleric-as-Fighter thing, even if we could consider Kyra a substitute at all. Yes, she will now be getting Scimitar proficiency for free, but still, her BAB and her Str (judging by the stats in Pf #6) just don't even remotely come close to filling the warrior-type role.
Maybe it'll be Valeros again, giving him a chance for more character development.
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Kyra? Remember, this is going to be the first Pathfinder RPG Adventure Path, and PRPG tones down the Cleric-as-Fighter thing, even if we could consider Kyra a substitute at all. Yes, she will now be getting Scimitar proficiency for free, but still, her BAB and her Str (judging by the stats in Pf #6) just don't even remotely come close to filling the warrior-type role.
Maybe it'll be Valeros again, giving him a chance for more character development.
He could use some more development. What's your 4?
I think this ones still 3.5. The Pathfinder RPG paths start in
August 2009.
How about a non-human party: Harsk (ranger/crossbowman), Lem (bard, support and mind influencing spells), Lini (Druid, animal companion and summoning for melee, battlefield control), and Merisiel (rogue, for big damage sneak attacks and traps). It's a little dependent on the single caster for both melee and crowd control, but at least that's what a druid is good at. Lem and Harsk help carry the load with cure wands. And they're all light armor wearers, which makes desert stuff and infiltration approaches feasible. Plus, they've got two wilderness types, a face man, and three skill monkeys. They're a bit behind on blasting, but what can you do?
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I just remembered that there's only 450 potential iconic parties, as the 45 Seelah-Seltyiel pairings are forbidden by her code of conduct, since he's evil.
Maybe someday, when they print a Mirror-Universe adventure, we'll see Seelah the blackguard, and then they can hang out.
Actually... Seelah is more likely to adventure with Seltyiel than Amiri, who is Chaotic Neutral. At least Seelah and Seltyiel can agree on the law aspect of things.
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AND: While it's still 4 months until I have to choose what 4 iconics go after the Legacy of Fire...
One, I guarantee, will be Kyra.
And since the first adventure starts out in Solku, which is where Seelah became a paladin... she's a strong choice for #2.
And I'm tempted to make #3 and #4 Seoni and Merisiel.
Actually... Seelah is more likely to adventure with Seltyiel than Amiri, who is Chaotic Neutral. At least Seelah and Seltyiel can agree on the law aspect of things.
I thought the Paladin's code of conduct was quite strict on such things. Evil is worse than Chaotic. Lawful or not, he'd be an Evil associate.
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Actually... Seelah is more likely to adventure with Seltyiel than Amiri, who is Chaotic Neutral. At least Seelah and Seltyiel can agree on the law aspect of things.I thought the Paladin's code of conduct was quite strict on such things. Evil is worse than Chaotic. Lawful or not, he'd be an Evil associate.
Adventure 1: Pregens include Seelah the Paladin and Seltyiel.
Adventure 2: Pregens include Seelah the Fallen Paladin and Seltyiel.So, you see, they could be in the same party.
Actually, I might suggest thatAND: While it's still 4 months until I have to choose what 4 iconics go after the Legacy of Fire...
One, I guarantee, will be Kyra.
And since the first adventure starts out in Solku, which is where Seelah became a paladin... she's a strong choice for #2.
And I'm tempted to make #3 and #4 Seoni and Merisiel.
- Seelah
- Kyra
- Lem
- Sajan
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AND: While it's still 4 months until I have to choose what 4 iconics go after the Legacy of Fire...
One, I guarantee, will be Kyra.
And since the first adventure starts out in Solku, which is where Seelah became a paladin... she's a strong choice for #2.
And I'm tempted to make #3 and #4 Seoni and Merisiel.
Interesting...an all female party.
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Actually... Seelah is more likely to adventure with Seltyiel than Amiri, who is Chaotic Neutral. At least Seelah and Seltyiel can agree on the law aspect of things.I thought the Paladin's code of conduct was quite strict on such things. Evil is worse than Chaotic. Lawful or not, he'd be an Evil associate.
Depends on the paladin code you're talking about. In any event... this is one of the reasons I dislike paladin PCs so much, to be honest. They're a lot more disruptive and restrictive on total party makeup than pretty much any other class.
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In any event... this is one of the reasons I dislike paladin PCs so much, to be honest. They're a lot more disruptive and restrictive on total party makeup than pretty much any other class.
I agree. I like paladins, but have seen players almost come to blows because of the way someone plays their Paladin.
I've always said the Paladin should be of any alignmetn, as long as it matches their God. No reason other alignments should miss out.Then again, I always said the same about Rangers as well, there was no reason they should have an alignment restriction and lo and behold in 3.5 it was done for all. Hopefully *crosses fingers* PFRPG can do the same to Paladins.
But I digress: I do like the idea of Kyra in the party now that you have said it. I would replace Lem with her in my picks above.
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James, while you're here and on the subject, who chooses iconics for the 32-page adventures? I ask because I was surprised that Paizo didn't recommend, say, a cleric for "D3: Demon Within." There have been some other surprising choices, too.
Up through "The Last Baron," the iconics were chosen by Jeremy Walker for the modules. From Chimera Cove on, they're chosen by James Sutter.
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In any event... this is one of the reasons I dislike paladin PCs so much, to be honest. They're a lot more disruptive and restrictive on total party makeup than pretty much any other class.I agree. I like paladins, but have seen players almost come to blows because of the way someone plays their Paladin.
I've always said the Paladin should be of any alignmetn, as long as it matches their God. No reason other alignments should miss out.
Then again, I always said the same about Rangers as well, there was no reason they should have an alignment restriction and lo and behold in 3.5 it was done for all. Hopefully *crosses fingers* PFRPG can do the same to Paladins.
But I digress: I do like the idea of Kyra in the party now that you have said it. I would replace Lem with her in my picks above.
The problem is... a D&D paladin isn't a paladin if her alignment can be anything. The best way to fix it, I suspect, is to include more text about how to remember "Lawful Good" doesn't mean "Disruptive Jerk."
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AND: While it's still 4 months until I have to choose what 4 iconics go after the Legacy of Fire... One, I guarantee, will be Kyra. And since the first adventure starts out in Solku, which is where Seelah became a paladin... she's a strong choice for #2. And I'm tempted to make #3 and #4 Seoni and Merisiel.
I like this group.. though to be honest, Merisiel is probably the one that's best suited to be dropped in favor of someone else.
Now before you get onto me about fanboyism and Seoni, fact is she moves product, so having her in the first Pathfinder RPG AP is a good tactic. :)
Depends on the paladin code you're talking about. In any event... this is one of the reasons I dislike paladin PCs so much, to be honest. They're a lot more disruptive and restrictive on total party makeup than pretty much any other class.
I was referring to the generic one in the PHB/SRD. I agree, though, that it is way, way too One Size Fits All. Roy might not be a Paladin, but he is Lawful Good, and he adventures with Belkar. Doesn't change his alignment, and it keeps Belkar reined in. A Paladin should be able to do the same thing.
I am glad that PFRPG will be able to fix that (as well as adding that "Lawful Good" doesn't mean "Lawful Stupid" or "Jerk"). So, perhaps AP5 would be an opportunity to pair Seelah and Seltyiel.
You realize that this whole discussion presumes that Mr. Jacobs doesn't "pull a ringer" on us, and create four entirely new characters? :D (The much demanded Half-Orc iconic for example.)
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You realize that this whole discussion presumes that Mr. Jacobs doesn't "pull a ringer" on us, and create four entirely new characters? :D (The much demanded Half-Orc iconic for example.)
I consider that possihbility to have vanishingly small probability, until PFRPG comes out at least. The whole point of having iconics is about branding and especially unified, consistent and fast art orders. Producing fun, playable, or even optimized stock PCs is dead last on the list of reasons to have them; after all, the page that holds them in every issue could just be a Map of Mystery, and I'm sure there would be a fair bit of rejoicing (though not from me [probably]). A picture is worth a thousand words, both to readers and to artists; instead of each artist having to reimagine "Hot sorceress in distress from source X," the art order now becomes "Seoni, the sorceress, in combat with X." This allows more description of X. I think the long-run side benefit to this has been an increase in the average quality of the interior art, since half or more of the cast in every scene is already roughed-out from the moment the artist gets the task order.
The fan interest and attachment to the iconics is just a side benefit.
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AND: While it's still 4 months until I have to choose what 4 iconics go after the Legacy of Fire... One, I guarantee, will be Kyra. And since the first adventure starts out in Solku, which is where Seelah became a paladin... she's a strong choice for #2. And I'm tempted to make #3 and #4 Seoni and Merisiel.I like this group.. though to be honest, Merisiel is probably the one that's best suited to be dropped in favor of someone else.
Now before you get onto me about fanboyism and Seoni, fact is she moves product, so having her in the first Pathfinder RPG AP is a good tactic. :)
AP4 isn't the first Pathfinder RPG AP, that will be AP5 which starts in August of '09.
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AND: While it's still 4 months until I have to choose what 4 iconics go after the Legacy of Fire...
One, I guarantee, will be Kyra.
And since the first adventure starts out in Solku, which is where Seelah became a paladin... she's a strong choice for #2.
And I'm tempted to make #3 and #4 Seoni and Merisiel.
I know Seoni-Merisiel is bound to have its share of 'shippers, but why not drop the elf for Sajan? That way, when the go to sea, he can play Mulder to Kyra's Scully.
We'll see plenty of elves in 2nd Darkness. Lem, as an escaped slave, has almost as much background reason to be in the first adventure as Seelah, and he looks ship-shape.
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The problem is... a D&D paladin isn't a paladin if her alignment can be anything. The best way to fix it, I suspect, is to include more text about how to remember "Lawful Good" doesn't mean "Disruptive Jerk."
Sure they are.
Up until 3.5 a D&D Ranger was a Good Warrior. Now they're any alignment (which is what they should have been, 3.5 got that right IMHO).To my mind a Paladin isn't just Mr(s) Highandmighty, they are a Holy Warrior protecting the, and fighting for, the interests of their God. What is to say that a Deity of any alignment can't have their own Holy Warrior? I know that back in the AD&D (2E) Trading Card Series there was a Chaotic Good Paladin of Horus on one (I could pull out the number of the card, but I'd have to go digging). I was stoked when I saw that, but never saw any rules for it.A Paladin should be the same alignment as their God, I think that should be the only alignment restriction.
At the very least there should be some leeway over the alignment. Any Lawful would be my suggestion for this (and it would actually fit in quite well with Cheliax). It also does away with the need for the Blackguard PrC (why should an Evil player be penalized and have to wait X amount of levels to get almost exactly the same benefits as a good player can get from word go?).
Also in my experience there is a wide gulf between Normal PC Lawful Good and Paladin Lawful Good, at least in how players tend to play their characters.
This is a Threadjack though, but this is something that I am quite passionate about as I really do like the Paladin Class (I am playing a Rogue/Paladin atm in a PbP here and I am not playing him as Paladin LG, but Normal PC LG) and would love to hear yours and others thoughts on the matter James.
EDIT: I started a New Thread Here
Up until 3.5 a D&D Ranger was a Good Warrior. Now they're any alignment (which is what they should have been, 3.5 got that right IMHO).
Actually, that change happened in D&D 3.0. not 3.5
I think the Seoni fans need to take a cold shower.
No use. I tried liquid oxygen and dry ice, doesn't work.
Up until 3.5 a D&D Ranger was a Good Warrior. Now they're any alignment (which is what they should have been, 3.5 got that right IMHO).Actually, that change happened in D&D 3.0. not 3.5
Mostly-right. The alignment restriction was removed in 3.0, but it added a bit about "Only evil Rangers can choose their own race as a favored enemy." That was excised in 3.5.
I'd lean away from an all female (or male) or all human party so...
Kyra
Seelah
Lem
Seoni
I agree Lem would help backup the fighting Kyra on the healing front, plus diversify spells for the 'evocative' Seoni. One interesting function is that they are *all* high Charisma characters (with Kyra being the least so).
Mostly-right. The alignment restriction was removed in 3.0, but it added a bit about "Only evil Rangers can choose their own race as a favored enemy." That was excised in 3.5.
And for good reason. A Human bounty hunter doesn't need to be evil to hunt human fugitives, and a Elf certainly doesn't need to be evil to hunt Drow.
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I'd lean away from an all female (or male) or all human party so...
Kyra
Seelah
Lem
Seoni
That's a good mix. Here's what I would go with:
* Kyra, f hmn clr of Saranrap (from AP #1)
* Seelah, f hmn pal of Iomedae** (from AP #2)
* Sajan, m hmn mnk of ?? (from AP #3)
* a new character, perhaps a m half-elf rog/sor
** incorrectly listed as a Paladin of Atheist in PF #11
a new character, perhaps a m half-elf rog/sor
They have 12 Iconics. They are not making more.
* Kyra, f hmn clr of Saranrap (from AP #1)
ROTFL
I didn't consider her as that "clingy," myself...
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Mostly-right. The alignment restriction was removed in 3.0, but it added a bit about "Only evil Rangers can choose their own race as a favored enemy." That was excised in 3.5.And for good reason. A Human bounty hunter doesn't need to be evil to hunt human fugitives, and a Elf certainly doesn't need to be evil to hunt Drow.
Absolutely. Similarly, half-orcs may have reason to hunt down either of their full-blooded relatives without being evil. (Either vicious, lynch-mobbing bigots or savage, pillage-and-burn reavers.) Dwarves can hunt Duregar, Halflings can stalk Jerren, and Gnomes... ...gnomes can just be weird.
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Yeah...whenever I read "Sarenrae" my brain changes it to "Saran Wrap"...* Kyra, f hmn clr of Saranrap (from AP #1)ROTFL
I didn't consider her as that "clingy," myself...
Just for the record... it's pronounced: SAIR-in-ray. When we first started doing Pathfinder stuff, one of the editors here kept spelling the name Saranrae, which DOES encourage the blasphemous mispronunciation... I had to scour that from his mind with the lash.
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Sajan? That'd leave no fighter-type in the group. A monk is no substitute for a true warrior. Harsk or even Seelah will be in there before Sajan will.I agree the Monk is not a fighter replacement; Kyra is. Sajan is the rogue-supplement in this group. My earlier complaints about her were on how melee she was. (That was why I was a vigorous proponent of having another cleric as the 12th, given that it wasn't going to be psionic.) The Bard is the CLW-monkey in this group. They make some odd picks at Paizo; they've had a Ranger in a city campaign and a druid in the underdark. Also, in a campaign focused on an ancient, mystical empire of wizards, the included PC arcanist had more ranks in cleavage than, say, Knowledge (Something Useful in Addiion to Arcana). In fact, that whole group was a little lacking in the Int. Valeros was the brains of the opperation!
The early iconic choices weren't made with the content of the adventures in mind. The goal was to get the 12 iconics done in the first 3 AP's, to give the fans the stats of those iconics because it was asked for so much with the Dungeon iconics, to set the tone for what the Pathfinder world would be about through the artwork on the iconics, and to have cool artwork to generate strong sales as they established the product. Starting with the 4th AP in the Pathfinder line they will make choices on which iconics to include based on the adventures themselves. I just wanted to point out the choices for which iconics would be featured in each of the first three AP's was based more on those four factors I mentioned than what would work best for the content of the AP in question.
Sajan? That'd leave no fighter-type in the group. A monk is no substitute for a true warrior. Harsk or even Seelah will be in there before Sajan will.I agree the Monk is not a fighter replacement; Kyra is. Sajan is the rogue-supplement in this group. My earlier complaints about her were on how melee she was. (That was why I was a vigorous proponent of having another cleric as the 12th, given that it wasn't going to be psionic.) The Bard is the CLW-monkey in this group. They make some odd picks at Paizo; they've had a Ranger in a city campaign and a druid in the underdark. Also, in a campaign focused on an ancient, mystical empire of wizards, the included PC arcanist had more ranks in cleavage than, say, Knowledge (Something Useful in Addiion to Arcana). In fact, that whole group was a little lacking in the Int. Valeros was the brains of the opperation!
Counterwise, if you are going that route, Seoni with her Varisian heratage and "de-facto" ranks in Diplomacy would have been more useful in the Urban oriented setting of CotCT. (But, I also think that Seoni's heritage - and even her attire - would have been well served by including a couple ranks of 'perform (dance)' to her skill list. )
But, Brent is right. It was about spitting out the 12 iconics more then providing PCs for the adventure path. :)
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Just for the record... it's pronounced: SAIR-in-ray.This makes me think of something off-topic: is the deities manual going to include pronunciation giudes? That would probably be a handy feature that would take up very little room.
-Skeld
The Gods & Magic book does not... but the Campaign Setting hardcover will. That's actually probably a pretty cool idea for a blog post...