Of course. And if I have a gun, I can shoot however I please. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong, though :P. Ability is not the question here.They can moderate however they please (as can Paizo).
Flawed analogy.
To use a rights analogy, you have a right to say whatever you please, you don't have a right to use their bullhorn.
Not flawed at all.
For one thing, I didn't use "right" "a low that allows me to", but "right" as in "proper".
You said they can moderate however they please. That's true.
But I never questioned their ability to ban people. I said that they don't use it fairly. That their definition of "troublemaker" is "doesn't worship wotc".
I can't command them to act differently, but I can have a low opinion of their practise, and I can say so.
So, as I said, give me a loaded gun and suddenly I have the ability to shoot at people. Doesn't mean I should.
Anywho, I've been thinking about starting up a small PF FR campaign, and I honestly have little to no experience in the realms. I've read a couple novels about the Phaerim (sp) and the Weave and such, but just haven't absorbed the setting in yet. I bought FR and Dragonlance 3e campaign settings for dirt cheap and just havent decided between the 2 of them which one to run yet.
You got the 3e FRCS. Read it. Let it sink in. Read it again. Anywhere between starting the first read and ending the second read, start your campaign. Make it clear to your players that your Realms contain only the Realmslore you're familiar with.
Do that and you're golden. You don't need anything else. Everything else can help (except Champions of Ruin - I liked everything FR 3e up until right before the end when they got the bombers carring the nukes airborne, but CoR was simply bad. And I don't know much about earlier sourcebooks), but you don't need it.
If you have someone who knows the Realms a lot in your game, tell him to run any specific realmslore he wants his character to know past you, so you can avoid him being disappointed finding out that in your Realms, Skippy the Armoursmith isn't really a secret Lord of Waterdeep. And, of course, you can find out if he's abusing player knowledge at the same time ;-)
To sum things up: You don't need anything but the FRCS to run great Realms games.
Ahem,
I think this thread takes a turn for the worse and it is time for SMURF.Let's get back to an FR disussion.
I might have agreed, but I'm allergic to smurf. So I'll derail this threat even further out of spite.
You know who else I hate?
Democrats.
And Republicans.
They all suck.
The only political party I can get interested in is the Pirate Party!
I still like Mystra passing away
It was fun the first time. Maybe second time even.
But sooner or later, it gets repetitive.
"We are supposed to do Realms"
"I don't know anything about it?"
"Write something completely new then and call it Realms!"
"But I can't write."
"Put a transcript of that awful soap opera you watch and replace the names with something from the realms."
"Good, so this Tyr guy and this Helm guy fight over..."
"Aren't those gods?"
"I don't know, I cannot tell them apart."
"Wasn't there something about that Mystra person dying? I think she's a cat"
"Okay, let's kill that one again."
Must have happened something like this, then.
Could it have been done better?
What would have been the way to integrate points of light into the FR? (as opposed to making a new setting for this concept, which I agree would have been cleanest)
Forgotten Realms was already a 'points of light' setting, or at least had regions which very much were in that vein. For example, in 2E and 3E the North is harsh wilderness with odd wandering monsters with stockaded, well-fortified towns separated by dangerous leages of wilderness. The Cold Lands, the Ride, the Blade Kingdoms, the Shaar, the Western Heartlands and many other regions also fitted the same template. Even the Dalelands prior to the refounding of Cormanthor, with Myth Drannor still a haunted ruin, were a 'points of light' area.
The difference was that you had a few more 'civilised' areas as well like Amn, Calimshan, Cormyr etc, but they had their own dangers as well.
Back to the original topic, as I've said previously I've never been a huge fan of the realms, but if I was to start using it as a setting for a 3.5/PFRPG campaign what advice would you have for me in terms of a good starting location and recommended reading?
The 'recommended' starting area has traditionally been the Dalelands/Cormyr/Sembia/Moonsea/Vast area (the eastern heartlands), or Waterdeep if you preferred a big city with a vast wilderness area (as in, about the size of France) beyond it to the north and east.
As to where to start, I started with the 2E original box setting, which was probably the best time to get into the Realms. There was a fair bit of lore by that time (1993) but nothing like what came along later. If you want to run 3E/PF then the 3E FR book is obviously the best place to start.
For an individual starting adventure, Under Illefarn is decent. I also enjoyed the early 3E adventure (name escapes me for now) involving the chaos in Cormyr, mainly as it reintroduced goblins (albeit otherdimensional ones) as a viable threat to higher-level players. Having my mid-level party dismissing them 'just' as goblins and then getting decked by them in battle was entertaining.
In the end, it really depends on what you want your starting area of the realms to look like. You have civalized, boarder towns, outright uncivalized and so much else. If you give us a clue what you're looking for we could aim you better. I've played entire campaignes that never left Waterdeep. I've played others that went from Waterdeep to WinterKeep and everywhere in between. Played in a marvelous one were we all got into trouble one time and the way out was to claim to be noblity from a far off land (we chose Winterkeep since it was completely unknown to us at that time). From that point on we were the Dukes Of Winterkeep out to raise an army and retake our lost lands. Never mind the three of us were from different races and claimed to all be related, it was a blast. The party paladin was not a part of this deception she joined us later and was actually noblity making us stay in character as Duke always. It is stuff like that to me that makes a game worth playing, not the name of the realm. But the realm gives you a landscape to act on and a place to get into and out of trouble.
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[suggestion]
I would be happy to handle the layout and proof editing of a FREE Fanzine dedicated to the continuing realms.... I would need a small team of dedicated:
>Writers
>Writers
>Writers
and.... an artist.... not someone who needs to draw, just someone who can pick appropriate artwork to go alongside articles, adventures, and new canon.
Is this an unreasonable idea?
I would accept articles, adventures, stories, fiction, etc. Nothing needs approval (i think) because it would be a FANZINE for FREE - I belive that stuff is okay to post somewhere for free distribution.
In fact, I have a few URLS that I bought.... I'd be willing to create a site and host them....
The anchor to the project would be in the theme of "Lathander's 1385 D.R." or something that strongly and clearly indicates "No Spellplague Here"
We would not accept any 4th edition material, because as Betts certifies that might defeat the purpose.
I'm not a lawyer - so, are we safe as a free publication then?
I'd be willing to handle typesetting and print material... but that could get costly.
A free quarterly .PDF.... called.... "SONS OF THE VAST", sounds rebellious and adventurous, ...that has a ring to it. Thoughts? We would provide 100% Spellplague-Free Content.
Thoughts?
Oh, yeah. All this criticism of the new Realms has nothing to do with criticism of 4th Edition. No one is attacking 4th Edition here. All you 4th Edition defenders, nothing to see here. Just some criticism of the new Realms that totally is not at the same time criticism of 4th Edition in any way, whatsoever.
The longer you linger here and try to tell us what we can or cannot say, the more of a double-standard you make yourself. We aren't clogging up a thread on the 4e board, we are in the 3.5/PF board. If any of us went over to the 4e board and said half of what you've said already, you'd be ripping us a new one. Just leave us grognards in our obsolescent wailing. I've got a lot of reading to catch up on.
Kaeyoss, thanks for the advice. Whatever I run it's going to be small, maybe 2 players, so I may just focus on a certain portion of the map and just read ahead as they venture out.
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Kaeyoss, thanks for the advice. Whatever I run it's going to be small, maybe 2 players, so I may just focus on a certain portion of the map and just read ahead as they venture out.
....Its funny, but I had that issue too, and someone very wise (my Guru friend that I mentioned in the OP) just reminded me to start very small. So I did. I just started with a 15 mile radius map of the local area.
...The campaign set the stage with the funeral of a local hero to symbolize the twilight of the Age of Glorious fools, and the start of a fresh new generation, who would be tested to see if they would live up to the reputation of the great fading grognards....er, I mean local heros.
Anyhow - the advice to start small is brilliant. And when I did, I enjoyed developing as I went. Using canon, but mostly making up fresh new ideas. It felt like a special treat for my players to actually adventre in The Vast, as it was described in various books and rpg guides, but the campaign was 100% original story, NPCs, but the setting and factions, such as the Zentarim, the Wizards college in Maskyr's eye, or the High Blade of Mulmaster, were decidedly canonical.
Above all, have fun!
[suggestion]
I would be happy to handle the layout and proof editing of a FREE Fanzine dedicated to the continuing realms.... I would need a small team of dedicated:
>Writers
>Writers
>Writers
and.... an artist.... not someone who needs to draw, just someone who can pick appropriate artwork to go alongside articles, adventures, and new canon.Is this an unreasonable idea?
I would accept articles, adventures, stories, fiction, etc. Nothing needs approval (i think) because it would be a FANZINE for FREE - I belive that stuff is okay to post somewhere for free distribution.
In fact, I have a few URLS that I bought.... I'd be willing to create a site and host them....
The anchor to the project would be in the theme of "Lathander's 1385 D.R." or something that strongly and clearly indicates "No Spellplague Here"
We would not accept any 4th edition material, because as Betts certifies that might defeat the purpose.
I'm not a lawyer - so, are we safe as a free publication then?
I'd be willing to handle typesetting and print material... but that could get costly.
A free quarterly .PDF.... called.... "SONS OF THE VAST", sounds rebellious and adventurous, ...that has a ring to it. Thoughts? We would provide 100% Spellplague-Free Content.
Thoughts?
I'd be willing to put in some effort, I got NPCs and Stories to spare, all set in FR.
It might be slow going for me, Im currently using my free time working on a 1e campaign setting.
Also im a moderate artist, I could produce some original art.
It might be kewl to have some folks experianced with one of the cartogarphy utilities.
Eric
The first campaign I ever ran was Ravenloft, which is to say, a relatively small mass of land , but infinitely confusing, with each "realm" being it's own microcosm, complete with it's own era in time(one realm might be renaissance, it's neighbor stone age), technology, magic level, government, etc. I started with Kartakass, which only has 2 cities and a few landmarks, and we ended up adventuring there nearly 2 years in RL! Now that I think about it, This might make FR a lot easier to run!
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Oh, yeah. All this criticism of the new Realms has nothing to do with criticism of 4th Edition.
It should not have to have but in the end it has. It is not about how 4t edition works but rather about 4th edition mechanics being so different to 1-3rd edition mechanics and the WoC percieved need to fit the Setting to the rules not the other way round.
If 4th edition was a new Porsche engine and FR was a Bentley Chassis, then the 4th FR Designers used the new engine with the old chassis. Seeing that the chassis did not fit the engine, they took out saw and welder and changed the Chassis.
Now we have a Car with a Porsche Motor and a Bentley Chassis that does not look like a Bentley Chassis but does also not look like a Porsche Chassis but rathr like a home welded scrap car.
The better way to do this would be to use the Motor Technology and build a moto that fits to the chassis, not thr other way round.
Or simply create a new chassis that fits the motor.
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Oh, yeah. All this criticism of the new Realms has nothing to do with criticism of 4th Edition.It should not have to have but in the end it has. It is not about how 4t edition works but rather about 4th edition mechanics being so different to 1-3rd edition mechanics and the WoC percieved need to fit the Setting to the rules not the other way round.
If 4th edition was a new Porsche engine and FR was a Bentley Chassis, then the 4th FR Designers used the new engine with the old chassis. Seeing that the chassis did not fit the engine, they took out saw and welder and changed the Chassis.
Now we have a Car with a Porsche Motor and a Bentley Chassis that does not look like a Bentley Chassis but does also not look like a Porsche Chassis but rathr like a home welded scrap car.The better way to do this would be to use the Motor Technology and build a moto that fits to the chassis, not th other way round.
Or simply create a new chassis that fits the motor.
Well said.
And, from a software development or ADDIE model perspective, its like they skipped analaysis, and design, and went straight for development with abandon and disregard!
Its like inviting a bull to come organize your china shoppe.
The Forgotten Realms is to sweet god-like nectar, as 4e designers are to crude goblinoid dung-sweeps. And, let's not name names—It is the work product we dislike, not individual persons. That said - - - somebody didn't do their homework, crammed for the presentation the night before, and flunked out of D&D-Game-Steward Skool.
I give it an F-
The minus is received because the dismatling of a perfectly good alignment system (and its profound impact on the realms) deserves a month of detentions, summer skool, and being held back a grade. Just poor. Simply poor work, and reasoning, without methodology, caution, care, custodianship, and lacking complete respect for 22 years of hard-earned history and tradition.
*spits*
Isn't it time to just forget the forgettable Realms?
Go play a homebrew world of your own and stop depending on others to tell you where the map ends.
Spoken like a true non-fan.Isn't it time to just forget the forgettable Realms?
Go play a homebrew world of your own and stop depending on others to tell you where the map ends.
True. It seems strange to me to allow others to have control over my game setting and then complain when they make decisions I disagree with. That always happens when someone else has the reins. Take them back and control your own destiny.
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My prefered version of post 1384 FR involves Cyric assassinating Shar in a bid to win Mystra's love, with Mystra being forced to take on the shadow-weave by Cyric's actions, and her alignment slipping toward neutrality.
Unfathomable evils of course then move in to quietly assume the rest of Shar's portfolio, which evils may well have had a hand in encouraging Cyric to bump Shar off in the first place.
Strange chants of 'Ia Cthulhu, Cthulhu ftaghn!' can be heard echoing on otherwise deserted shores of the Realms as something altogether more sinister than Shar ever was quietly moves in...
<rip>
This is what I like about dropping into this forum - there are always lots of good ideas floating around. The ripping sound? Ah, that was the BBEG from my current adventure having his motivation ripped out. Time to replace it with something cool I just read on the web.
<scribble>
:)
Thanks, Mr 25
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True. It seems strange to me to allow others to have control over my game setting and then complain when they make decisions I disagree with. That always happens when someone else has the reins. Take them back and control your own destiny.Spoken like a true non-fan.Isn't it time to just forget the forgettable Realms?
Go play a homebrew world of your own and stop depending on others to tell you where the map ends.
:D
TSR and WotC have never had control over our gaming group's settings. One of the best campaigns I played in was with a friend of mine DMing the Realms. He had a alien 'force' (not really SF, not really Cthulu, more fantasy) crash into the Realms and lead to a terrific crisis that took kept the major NPCs busy so we had to figure out how to solve the situation. We ran into Khelben, Storm and even Szass Tam and it was not canon at all. And it was good.
The first rule Ed Greenwood seems to have about running in the Realms is "How does it work in your Realms?" He never pushed for canon and such, but wanted to give a setting that was detailed with history, some cities, some NPCs and release the adventurers into the world. Only after the RSE novels became popular and took hold did canon start having a stake in the games.
And it's ironic, because it was a very subtle change. The first real RSE novel was the Time of Troubles trilogy. TSR also released companion adventures to the novels so that players could "follow along" in game, but it wasn't required. Then 3E came out and the rules didn't change the story of the game, but WotC began to publish an annual RSE with the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. Normally fans could pick and choose novels prior to that to be canon since the other novels didn't affect a large portion of the Realms, but with RotA, then the subsequent series like the Rage of Dragons, we had something happening every year.
DMs of the Realms should have a speech made before running any non-published campaign that would state "Yes, I know you read about X, but that is not part of this game and should not be brought up". It might make things a lot easier when dealing with players who have too much canon hardwired into their brains.
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D&D has "lost" new people interested in roleplaying to other game companies due to the astonishing amount of reading one had to do in order to be "up to date" on events in the realms.
Why would a DM feel compelled to do that?
I've lived in the same state for 20 years now, and I haven't bothered looking up every obsessive little detail about the place. I would feel very comfortable running a game here, or leading a tour, or whatever, despite not knowing *everything* about New Hampshire.
It's the same with the Realms. If I'm running a game in Chessenta, I don't need to know bupkiss about Cormyrian adventuring writs (which I think are lame) or that 'potstickers' are tres popular in Waterdeep this season or that some Drow are CG worshippers of the goddess of hot chicks dancing nekkid in the moonlight with sharp objects. Indeed, given the amount of information on Chessenta, I'll probably look at books about Greek / Mesopotamian / Babylonian society for ideas, more than Realms products...
Wherefore comes this strange notion that a DM has to know every single thing ever written about a setting before using a tiny portion of it in a game? It's just silly. Can you imagine a mechanic or IT guy who refused to touch your car or computer because he hasn't read every book ever written about your specific car or computer?
Removed several posts all specifically linked to a single post that attempted to bypass our profanity filter. Not cool. Please do not attempt again.
Also removed a post bashing the moderating on another board. Let's keep the way other boards handle their traffic out of the discussion on our board please.
Pax Veritas -- Please discontinue the use of the word that's bypassing the profanity filter. You know exactly what I'm talking about.
I run a heavily modified FR setting:
First I cut way down on magic items. I go for a world with few (but also often powerful) magic items, where all magic items have a history. No magic shops in every town. No wizards advertising for custom items. No temples selling potions to everyone, or even giving bulk discounts. Most people use either mundane gear, masterwork items, or buff themselves and allies with spells. The red wizards make a fortune (and have a lot of influence) because they sell scrolls and potions to everyone, unlike just about everyone else.
Second, less treasure. There are no orc tribes possessing tons of gold, not bandits amassing a fortune just ripe for the picking. Not many tombs filled with gold. People pay less for "adventuring services" as well. Having 1000 gold from pure loot at level 10 is pretty good for an adventurer, but noble titles, monopolies, lands, logging rights, and secure trade routes are where the real money - and power - is gotten from, and any high-level adventurer knows it, and strives for that if they want to get ahead.
Less spellcasters as a whole. There are no dozens of high-level wizards tending bars. No legions of high-level clerics polishing idols and statues in every temple. I don't always use the stats from the FRCS for the existing high level spellcasters, and usually do not define their levels. Elminster is a sage, pretty sure a capable wizard, but nothing past that is known for sure. The tales always get exagerated anyway. As long as no one needs him to cast Elminster can be a level 5 wizard for all I care.
Certain spells are banned, others are almost nonexistent. Teleport and Teleport without error and all the instant relocation spells with a greater range than Dimension Door are only available to NPC-mages that take a prestige class like the wayfarer from T&B, but without spell progression. People in need of a fast transport can either look for such a mage - and hope they have enough money or services to compensate his time should they arrive at convincing him to aid them - or they can look for ancient, semi-reliable portals scattered among ruins and the like.
Resurrection and similar spells are very, very rare - the stuff of legends. Dead usually is dead. Harm is banned. Haste is banned. Divine Power just gives you 18 strength, nothing more. Persistent spell does not exist. Improved Invisibility and Fly are very rare. People do not usually cast Polymorph Other on allies as there are side effects.
The societies of the realms are a lot more grim than the FRCS suggests. Peasants don't live a good life, nobility means a lot or all in most countries. The dales are modelled after the medieval swiss, a bunch of rather backward peasants good at fighting, sought after as mercenaries. Cormyr is a centralized monarchy modelled after France. South of Baldur's Gate and Cormyr slavery is the norm. Death or enslavement is a common punishment for many crimes in almost all civilized countries, and the laws are not equal - nobles and the wealthy are favored, openly in most locations. True good states are very rare - most leaders are neutral, having to compromise their morals for politics. The true power, money, lies with the (noble) landholders, or with merchant companies or houses, not with some eccentric mage living in an out of the way tower.
Racism and to a lesser degree sexism run rampant.
Elves have no second wind, they are a people rooted in traditions, often unable to cope with the rapidly advancing humans. Elven magic is on the verge of becoming outdated compared to human-driven magic research. In some countries, namely Halrua, the magic knowledge available to humans has mainly surpassed elven traditions due to 3000 years of research driven by humans' zeal for progress. Elves generally look down on humans, but with far less reason than 1000 or even 200 years before. Stuck between the chaotic, carefree attitude of eternal children, and the stiffling traditions of long-lived beings that stiffles progress they have not much to look forward to. The elven items - most very old - are more graceful and more beautiful than comparable items from human or dwarves, but dwarven items, especially metal, are clearly better, of higher quality.
Dwarves are also a people whose time is past. The Thunder Twin event never happened, dwarven numbers keep declining. They have kept up, however, with progress in metalworking and mining, and are still the best at their craft.
Halflings are basically as they are presented, but not too common.
Gnomes are rare. There is no odd tinker gnome in every city.
One campaign is set in Mulhorand/Unther, which I modified even further. Both countries are structured after egypt, and are almost twin cultures.
Religion-wise, I remodeled the Mulhorandi pantheon and culture, and dropped the effects from the time of troubles - there are still gods walking the palaces in Skuld. No good gods though, only neutral gods. Mulhorand is a theocratic society modeled after communist russia, with the clerics of the different temples instead of the party running things. Unther was a manchester-capitalistic society controlled by their godking, and fell apart after the godking died, ripe for the picking by Mulhorand. Arcane casters in Mulhorand are, due to the belief that magic is god-granted and use of it without clerical backing is heresy, and due to the long-standing conflict with the Red Wizards of Thay, persecuted and very rare. The church of Toth, however, is mainly composed of mages with a few levels of cleric, for appearance's sake. The goddess Isis was struck by Set through a plot and her personality fragmented. Her different fragments - each a diferent aspect of her portofolio, and a shard of her mind - compete with each other. The result is a Goddess with split personalities. Good thing she can have multiple avatars.
The priest-caste and the churches dominate Mulhorand and the occupied territories of Unther, running the governement under the pharao and the army. Priests of other faiths than those of the Mulhorandi pantheon may not attempt to convert the people or risk the death penalty (and diplomatic incidences among the gods).
Historically, many events have not happened yet, or will not happen at all. King Azoun still lives, and might go on to live depending on the players. Shade has not (yet) appeared. The retreat is still going on.
I am sure I forgot something, but the gist of it should be clear.
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I run a heavily modified FR setting:
First I cut way down on magic items. I go for a world with few (but also often powerful) magic items, where all magic items have a history. No magic shops in every town. No wizards advertising for custom items. No temples selling potions to everyone, or even giving bulk discounts. Most people use either mundane gear, masterwork items, or buff themselves and allies with spells. The red wizards make a fortune (and have a lot of influence) because they sell scrolls and potions to everyone, unlike just about everyone else.
Second, less treasure. There are no orc tribes possessing tons of gold, not bandits amassing a fortune just ripe for the picking. Not many tombs filled with gold. People pay less for "adventuring services" as well. Having 1000 gold from pure loot at level 10 is pretty good for an adventurer, but noble titles, monopolies, lands, logging rights, and secure trade routes are where the real money - and power - is gotten from, and any high-level adventurer knows it, and strives for that if they want to get ahead.
Less spellcasters as a whole. There are no dozens of high-level wizards tending bars. No legions of high-level clerics polishing idols and statues in every temple. I don't always use the stats from the FRCS for the existing high level spellcasters, and usually do not define their levels. Elminster is a sage, pretty sure a capable wizard, but nothing past that is known for sure. The tales always get exagerated anyway. As long as no one needs him to cast Elminster can be a level 5 wizard for all I care.
Certain spells are banned, others are almost nonexistent. Teleport and Teleport without error and all the instant relocation spells with a greater range than Dimension Door are only available to NPC-mages that take a prestige class like the wayfarer from T&B, but without spell progression. People in need of a fast transport can either look for such a mage - and hope they have enough money or services to compensate his time should they arrive at...
Thanks Fuchs,
I'm sure those who are concerned about going against canon in their games, or worry that there is too much to learn, will see from your post that every gamemaster makes the realms her own.I think two things happened for me somewhere in 2007. First, I removed the mistique of 100% official content from my vocabulary, and explored many 3PPs and loved what I saw. This has truly enriched my game: Sword & Sorcery material, Necromancer, Paizo, etc. Second, I lifted the veil of Forgotten Realms expectations, and found that there weren't many on the part of players. I learned that, if anything, gamemasters are a bit too hard on themselves, and your post is an excellent illustration of just how flexible, and cool, a gaming group can be with the realms materials, and still have a wikedly great time.
Thanks for taking the time to post this detailed example. Perhaps it demonstrates just how unnecessary it is to adopt spellplague-thingies or newer materials in home campaigns.
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D&D has "lost" new people interested in roleplaying to other game companies due to the astonishing amount of reading one had to do in order to be "up to date" on events in the realms.Why would a DM feel compelled to do that?
I've lived in the same state for 20 years now, and I haven't bothered looking up every obsessive little detail about the place. I would feel very comfortable running a game here, or leading a tour, or whatever, despite not knowing *everything* about New Hampshire.
It's the same with the Realms. If I'm running a game in Chessenta, I don't need to know bupkiss about Cormyrian adventuring writs (which I think are lame) or that 'potstickers' are tres popular in Waterdeep this season or that some Drow are CG worshippers of the goddess of hot chicks dancing nekkid in the moonlight with sharp objects. Indeed, given the amount of information on Chessenta, I'll probably look at books about Greek / Mesopotamian / Babylonian society for ideas, more than Realms products...
Wherefore comes this strange notion that a DM has to know every single thing ever written about a setting before using a tiny portion of it in a game? It's just silly. Can you imagine a mechanic or IT guy who refused to touch your car or computer because he hasn't read every book ever written about your specific car or computer?
There is, perhaps, a reasonable explanation to answer your question about why a GM would attempt to do that?
Here's one theory, comprised of several factors:
>For 9 years, "100% Official Content" has been a mantra that kept gamers buying wotci materials, but avoiding 3PPs
>There is a sense of community when a gamemaster can walk into a FLGS or invite new friends over the house, or show up with an adventure, and have everyone in the room know exactly where the game was taking place, and already possess a "shared world experience"; For example: I love the fact that I can jump into a game in Greyhawk city and already know my way around (but this is a huge - out-of-game benefit, its just a bit of a community-feel, that's all)
>During the past 5 or so years, more than TWENTY-ONE hardcover books, + FIVE or more soft cover RPG books were published. Its been a marveous ride. This decade has seen some of the highest production value books, coupled with many of the best writers ever to pen for FR
>Simultaneous with all of this, and since the Time of Troubles, it seems novels and other writings have mirrored the progression of the game. And even though some GMs haven't joined LIVING WATERDEEP, or whatever the flavor-of-the-day convention-style tourneys were organized as play, GMs weren't allowed to get those "secret modules" unless they were part of organized play. And this, actually, always bothered me. For example: I was attempting to run a small campaign for a different group of players in the Delymbier River valley. I was fleshing out places like Loudwater etc., but I learned some of this area was defined by the "Legacy of the Green Regent" living campaign. I tried very hard to get that content to quickly integrate, but I eventually gave up: both on getting the "secret content" and running anything in that area.
Now, I'm a smart guy - but even I had an issue with this. I think it just takes time for the veil to be lifted from GM's eyes. PAIZO's Pathfinder RPG has certainly put a capstone on all things WOTC for me. For example, I won't buy anything from them ever again. Period. And this is an extreme reaction I know, but a response to the foolishness I feel they have put me through over these past few years.
To act like realmslore was heroine-like nectar of the gods that only they could drip out of their precious printers, and then to completely nuke the setting from space - is, for me, just too uncaringly wild of disperate marketing "spells" that I never wish to fail a saving throw against again.
Hmnnn... does any of that make sense?
Isn't it time to just forget the forgettable Realms?
Go play a homebrew world of your own and stop depending on others to tell you where the map ends.
Or, another option.
"Isn't it time to just forget the Forgotten Realms?
Come over to Golarion. Things are just better here.
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Isn't it time to just forget the forgettable Realms?
Go play a homebrew world of your own and stop depending on others to tell you where the map ends.
Or, another option.
"Isn't it time to just forget the Forgotten Realms?
Come over to Golarion. Things are just better here.
No doubt. Golarion rocks. I love Erik's campaign source book, and have immersed myself in Golarion since Burnt Offerings with modules and the chronicles, suppliments, etc.
And I understand what you are saying.
But that is not the point.
The Forgotten Realms were, are, and always will be, a very special place for gamers, and holds a dear and important place in the history and evolution of our game.
Our game.
Our game, not in the evolution of the IP owner's profit margin, but a special place in our game, and our game history.
There have been a multitude of communities who have enjoyed the realms, and you'll see why with even a cursory review of this thread.
These are the beloved Forgotten Realms, a campaign setting, an author, and a contribution to the advancement of the collective community's mindset about just how incredible a setting can be.
Greenwood gave us stories, iconics, politics, commerce, deific battles, symbolism, and [insert the 5 million other things here].
Yes. Golarion is where it is at. It is where we're all moving to, or already are. But there has been an assassination attempt upon the king. LONG LIVE THE KING. LONG LIVE THE UNDESTROYED REALMS! is the battle cry here.
Yes. Golarion is where it is at. It is where we're all moving to, or already are. But there has been an assassination attempt upon the king. LONG LIVE THE KING. LONG LIVE THE UNDESTROYED REALMS! is the battle cry here.
I have read throught this thread. And believe me, I have a large collection of Realms Lore.
But in direct answer to you, I need to say ...
The king is dead.
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Yes. Golarion is where it is at. It is where we're all moving to, or already are. But there has been an assassination attempt upon the king. LONG LIVE THE KING. LONG LIVE THE UNDESTROYED REALMS! is the battle cry here.I have read throught this thread. And believe me, I have a large collection of Realms Lore.
But in direct answer to you, I need to say ...
The king is dead.
Long Live the King.
And by who's decree do you pronounce such a death? According to whom? By who's authority?
The destruction of the 4gotten realms rings the death knoll for the age of mega-corps writing for RPGs. We now enter an age of mini-companies, and soon, gamers writing for gamers, bartering, trading, selling, and creating a new economy in the void that the mega-corp left in the space of its own casket.
Put simply, Greyhawk lives on, and so should the realms. And the silly slip of pure gaming enjoyment that slid toward following official content this decade will soon be over, and the times when Eileen Prophet of Istus can trade me Greyhawk games for my Forgotten Realms games has begun.
We do not need a company to dictate this end. For the IP owners of Dungeons and Dragons do not own fantasy role-playing any more than the NFL owns the game of football.
We reject 4e and all its works. 1385 is still unwritten.
A bad stroke of a pen - can be unwritten.
If any "King" is dead, my friend, it is a Wizard that lies in his place.
I'm not a huge Realms fan, but I see two problems with the new Realms:
1) It's designed largely around the complaints of people who didn't like the Realms to begin with. That's like taking airships and warforged out of Eberron to satisfy the people who don't like that setting.
2) I think WotC had a nice balance settings-wise in 3rd edition. They had Greyhawk, which was left largely generic and undetailed, they had Eberron, which was very detailed but had no timeline advancement, and they had the Realms, which was very detailed and was constantly in motion. That's three different approaches to settings that appeal to several different types of players. With the new setting philosophy, everything is left somewhere between the Greyhawk and Eberron level of detail. That's a pain for those who did like to see the world around the PCs in motion.
Of course, I don't have the sales figures that WotC does, so maybe that's the only setting style that's making money these days. Still, unless sales were really plummeting for the Realms, I don't think it's a great strategy to redesign the setting around the folks who aren't interested in it in the first place.
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I don't think it's a great strategy to redesign the setting around the folks who aren't interested in it in the first place.Yes, it has the taste of a cook who ruins a great recipe just for the whims or desires to please one person who doesn't fundamentally like the dish in most forms anyhow!
That happens alot just so you know!
IMO, I don't see what the big deal is. If you have your 3e FR books, then just let your imagination flow.
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I don't think it's a great strategy to redesign the setting around the folks who aren't interested in it in the first place.Yes, it has the taste of a cook who ruins a great recipe just for the whims or desires to please one person who doesn't fundamentally like the dish in most forms anyhow!That happens alot just so you know!
IMO, I don't see what the big deal is. If you have your 3e FR books, then just let your imagination flow.
Generally Mac, I would agree. Imagination is what matters. Each GM will make decisions according to taste. Again, not so much the point.
But with this particular setting, steeped in tradition, community, and lore. They've disgraced it with nonsense, abandoned support, and forced fans like the scribes at Candlekeep to literally put their pens down. They acted without much consult from Greenwood - so its just a big slap in the face.
And all of this coming from me, who is not nearly as much of an ardent fan as others have disclosed on this thread.
As a community we are reeling, feeling not only abandoned, but also hearing that the IP owners made some of these decisions IN SPITE of those that love the setting, favoring those who don't.
Now, if that isn't a connundrum, I don't know what is.
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Good Points
I'm just tired of the "My setting is better than your setting so THERE" arguements.
I don't like 4e, but not out of any hatred to WoTC for anything. My gaming group and I tried the "pre-gen" adventure WoTC released and weren't impressed. Does that mean its a bad system? No. We could see the points of it, but it wasn't for us. So we stuck with 3.X and used our imaginations to make universes of our own.
One other point. Everyone that is screaming that "I'll never buy a WoTC product again!", I would certainly hope not. While this arguement might deflate in the face of their Miniatures, you aren't playing 4e! You have no reason to buy anything again from WoTC. STOP SAYING THAT. Support Paizo or any other 3.X publisher.
Sorry if this becomes a rant, I'm just tired of all the macho posturing for no reason. Love the game you love, ignore the ones you hate.
[suggestion]
I would be happy to handle the layout and proof editing of a FREE Fanzine dedicated to the continuing realms.... I would need a small team of dedicated:
>Writers
>Writers
>Writers
and.... an artist.... not someone who needs to draw, just someone who can pick appropriate artwork to go alongside articles, adventures, and new canon.Is this an unreasonable idea?
I would accept articles, adventures, stories, fiction, etc. Nothing needs approval (i think) because it would be a FANZINE for FREE - I belive that stuff is okay to post somewhere for free distribution.
In fact, I have a few URLS that I bought.... I'd be willing to create a site and host them....
The anchor to the project would be in the theme of "Lathander's 1385 D.R." or something that strongly and clearly indicates "No Spellplague Here"
We would not accept any 4th edition material, because as Betts certifies that might defeat the purpose.
I'm not a lawyer - so, are we safe as a free publication then?
I'd be willing to handle typesetting and print material... but that could get costly.
A free quarterly .PDF.... called.... "SONS OF THE VAST", sounds rebellious and adventurous, ...that has a ring to it. Thoughts? We would provide 100% Spellplague-Free Content.
Thoughts?
Sounds like a dangerous game. WotC owns all this IP and you are solidly on record as being anti-WotC. One day you just might do or say something that hits a nerve, something they actually notice, and in a fit of pique they'll scrape $50,000 together from the coffee money and play 'lets see who throw more money onto the bonfire' in litigation.
In other words this is a game you should only play if you and all the participants are either very, very, rich or very, very, poor. Anything in between could be disastrous.
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In other words this is a game you should only play if you and all the participants are either very, very, rich or very, very, poor. Anything in between could be disastrous.
Okay - let's review. Because, I just want to be clear about what this hobby has turned into....
Mega-corp A receives mega dollar$$$ over the course of ten years, selling books that develop a world, all the while encouraging fans and gamers to 'make it their own.'
Then, after being trained to buy imaginative bits for 10 years, fans finally step out to make some stuff on their own, because the mega-corp has been saying 'make it your own' as a selling point for years. Additionally, independent fans have been putting out fanzines like Candlekeep's .pdfs for years without issue.
WHEN ALL OF A SUDDEN..... just like a crappy adventure, the GM changes the rules, nukes the setting from space, and expects everyone to just follow along.... or else!
Somehow, for those of us who don't want, nor need any part of that company any more.... for how they've behaved, for how they've mistreaded fans and the setting, ... why are we somehow constrained from sharing FOR FREE, creative new stuff for the realms setting....?
I don't seem to recall a disclaimer on the front pages of any of the books saying,"WARNING: by using these fantastic ideas, you agree NOT to use your imagination and creativity to actually come up with or share any extended or developed ideas on your own!"
Hmmmmnnnnn...... someone help me understand why fans can't create and distribute fun stuff for free?
Perhaps the copyright laws are that strict? In which case, the entire industry has been hijacked.
But, seriously, if there is some reason a fan can't create and share with others, then there's something seriously wrong with all of this.
The mega-corp should not be able to stifle the free speech and creativity associated with the game. Or..... do they have this power? Or is this power simply perceived but not real....
I'm asking, I don't know........
That needs a snappier byline, Pax :)
Pax, the difference is that you can use only what is acknowledged as OGL. Anything beyond that is infringement, if you publish it, regardless of intent and whether you are making any monies from it.
An example I experienced was belonging to an online fanclub based on the Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey. We had set guidelines we could use, and depending on what the club had requested depended on how far we could go on playing in Anne's playground.
Those Timelines that chose to push the envelope of free use to the point of trying to "sell" their short stories in hard copy (you were defraying the printing cost and paying for shipping) were often shut down, because money was changing hands. It did not matter that they were not making a profit.
Another situation was a club that was posting their stories openly online, with art and excerpts from Anne's own works. They also were shut down, because they infringed on the rights of the artists and Anne ... it was a very odd balancing act that many of the clubs had to do to keep themselves safe and not cross lines that many folks saw as pretty arbitrary.
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Pax, the difference is that you can use only what is acknowledged as OGL. Anything beyond that is infringement, if you publish it, regardless of intent and whether you are making any monies from it.
An example I experienced was belonging to an online fanclub based on the Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey. We had set guidelines we could use, and depending on what the club had requested depended on how far we could go on playing in Anne's playground.
Those Timelines that chose to push the envelope of free use to the point of trying to "sell" their short stories in hard copy (you were defraying the printing cost and paying for shipping) were often shut down, because money was changing hands. It did not matter that they were not making a profit.
Another situation was a club that was posting their stories openly online, with art and excerpts from Anne's own works. They also were shut down, because they infringed on the rights of the artists and Anne ... it was a very odd balancing act that many of the clubs had to do to keep themselves safe and not cross lines that many folks saw as pretty arbitrary.
Well, that's informative.
And, wouldn't you agree... too bad? I mean whatever happened to the Dragons of Pern fan club? Maybe its time for someone to create a wonderful campaign setting that itself is true open source. Then have all gamers around the world be able to develop and create for it.
It sure would be nice to feel a sense of community across the globe that way.
Perhaps the only way to do this... is to become a publisher and a game designer ourselves. And this gets us back to something I heard Monte Cook mentioning recently in one of his interviews... we're on the verge of an industry where we might see the rise of gamers publishing for gamers. The open design concept seems to be walking that way.
Thanks, Gamer Girrl.