|
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I have no problem with opinions - these boards are full of them. The point is that he was being helpful - right up to the point where it was mentioned it was a 4e game, and somehow, the fact that the game system in question became more important than helping a fellow gamer out. The perpetuation of the attitude that somehow Game X is better/worse than Game Y is one of the worst things about this hobby, and while I don't see it going away any time soon, I certainly don't like it, and I don't want to see that attitude in my chat room.
If I weren't already married to an awesome gamer chick, I would have to consider stalking you.
As it is I will have to depend on the largesse of occasional cookies.
|
In the end, I didn't have to do anything. He got a warning, he stepped away.
Why did he deserve even a warning? He was neither rude nor obnoxious. All he did was withdraw his help. No one is entitled to that, help that is.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I have no problem with opinions - these boards are full of them. The point is that he was being helpful - right up to the point where it was mentioned it was a 4e game, and somehow, the fact that the game system in question became more important than helping a fellow gamer out. The perpetuation of the attitude that somehow Game X is better/worse than Game Y is one of the worst things about this hobby, and while I don't see it going away any time soon, I certainly don't like it, and I don't want to see that attitude in my chat room.
Which is his right to do. He doesnt want anything to 4e, on ANY level. He neither slammed the game, nor the person he was helping....which is alot more than I see around here.
perhaps its a matter of principle to him.
|
I have always figured at the end of the day, we were gamers, and whether we play 3e, Pathfinder, 4e, Vampire, Twerps, Hero, or whatever, we could still discuss games in general, and in particular, story elements that are totally unrelated to the underlying mechanics. Is helping me improve my game really supporting 4e?
Am I wrong? Was this chatter just one isolated douchebag?
I would answer your question, but I don't support 4e, so I won't answer any questions asked by someone who plays 4e.
*eh, that joke was already done, nevermind*
...
Seriously, the guy was just a jerk. I don't care for 4e, and have no interest in participating in any 4e games--I even have a lot of distaste for 4e. However, there's no call for behaving like a tit--I'd prefer to help a game out. Even if he/she played Palladium. *shudders*
|
I have always figured at the end of the day, we were gamers, and whether we play 3e, Pathfinder, 4e, Vampire, Twerps, Hero, or whatever, we could still discuss games in general, and in particular, story elements that are totally unrelated to the underlying mechanics. Is helping me improve my game really supporting 4e?
Unfortunately, there are people out their who thrive on playing the "martyred-gamer" card, where it is the end of the world if everybody isn't playing their self-appointed "Uebersystem".
It is sad, because if people like that calmed down and were a little more tolerant, they would have a lot more people to game with (and probably enjoy gaming more).
|
|
Okay, I just had an experience on the chatroom that pissed me off. I was bouncing off ideas for my upcoming 4e campaign to get some feedback. The vast majority of chatters were extremely cool, and gave me a lot of great suggestions (shout-outs to pygon, camptramses, fatespinner, lilith, tensor, karelzarath (who mostly joked), yasha (who mostly smoked) for all the terrific help), but one chatter started out very helpful only to completely cease contact once I mentioned the game was a 4e game.
I was discussing the plot elements, not involving any game mechanics whatsoever, and the response I got was "I don't support 4e, so I won't help anyone with anything involving 4e."
WTF? So now, because I play a game you don't like, you won't even help me as a person? What the hell is that about?
I have always figured at the end of the day, we were gamers, and whether we play 3e, Pathfinder, 4e, Vampire, Twerps, Hero, or whatever, we could still discuss games in general, and in particular, story elements that are totally unrelated to the underlying mechanics. Is helping me improve my game really supporting 4e?
Am I wrong? Was this chatter just one isolated douchebag?
Probably. That said, if it got beyond the very basics of plot and setting, I'd be utterly useless as a resource to a 4e GM. I read the rules once, decided they weren't for me, and exchanged the book for something I'll get some use out of. Therefore, I'd be unable to recommend specific monsters, tactics, and such, because my head does not contain the necessary information. However, if you want general advice, I'd offer whatever help with your you (or any other civil gamer) wanted from me.
But then again, I'm hoping one of these days, I can find something that is neither 3e or 4e to play, just as a change of pace (not exclusively or instead of D&D; in addition to it). I've been listening to the Sons of Kryos, and they have me wanting to try (among other things) Burning Wheel, Primetime Adventures, Dogs in the Vineyard, Don't Rest Your Head, Sorcerer, Mechaton, and Cats. I have extensive L5r, GURPS, In Nomine, and Aberrant libraries in addition to my d20 one. I consider 3.5/Pathfinder to be the only version of D&D I'll ever need or want, but not the only RPG I'd ever countenance playing in, so I may not be the best example. But, yeah, gamer first, edition loyalist second.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I dunno.. given that it's you, Sebastian, could it have been possible for him to have said "Well, since you're talking about 4E, I can't help you," and meant exactly THAT - no more or less. He just didn't feel that he could contribute?
Considering your.. ah.. zeal.. and your treatement of anyone who dares disagree with your assessment on anything, don't you think it might be more likely that you did a bit of alienating first?
As usual, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Go away troll.
I was discussing the plot elements, not involving any game mechanics whatsoever, and the response I got was "I don't support 4e, so I won't help anyone with anything involving 4e."
Vance, you might read the above. It's from the OP.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Vance:
My Sebastian speak is somewhat hazy, but I think that translates as:
'Read this whole thread and you will see that the subject of speculation suddenly withdrew support halfway through a discussion when the fact that 4E was involved came to light- and he had been providing enlightening and useful suggestions up until that very moment.'Either that or Sebastian forgot to add a ':D' to indicate he was making a clever joke about your opinion of him, but I don't really think that Sebastian's into that sort of cryptic posting.
Edit: your translation is much kinder than I would phrase it.
*BEEP BEEP, GROUND PROXIMITY WARNING, PULL UP, PULL UP*
This thread is going to end badly.
|
|
Right, but even that says "I won't help with anything involving 4E"... okay, he dislikes the game, but it does NOT say "I won't help you with anything because you like 4E." Very dramatic difference between what the guy actually said, and Sebastian's interpretation of it.Edit: And, for the record, my WIFE is the subscriber. :P
Don't do it Sebastian. You'll get covered with goo and some sort of ongoing rage effect.
Step away from the keys...
|
|
I find it quite bizarre that someone would refuse to help someone who is playing a different game system to the one they like – that they would in fact withdraw their previously offered help. Makes little sense to me.
Had it been me – and I was so against the game in question that I felt I couldn’t in good conscious help any more – I would probably just slink away.
I guess the person was trying to make a point … just rather a pointless one.
Of course, if I were assisting Sebastian with an idea, and then I found out half-way through that it was a plot involving the drowning of puppies, I’d withdraw my help too, and certainly let him know why. Yes, it’s off the dial to equate playing 4e with drowning puppies, but some misguided souls who really need to get a life seem to do so.
To this guy’s credit it sounds like he wasn’t rude beyond that. From what I can tell he (or she) didn’t directly insult anyone or trash the game. So I’d put it down to yet another example of random human stupidity and move on.
|
|
Right, but even that says "I won't help with anything involving 4E"... okay, he dislikes the game, but it does NOT say "I won't help you with anything because you like 4E." Very dramatic difference between what the guy actually said, and Sebastian's interpretation of it.
Huh … your definition of “very dramatic” is far different to mine. Each to their own I suppose. I also missed the part where Sebastian said that they person withdrew their help because he liked 4e (rather than because he was discussing it) … but it’s a fast growing thread, maybe I did miss it.
Either way though, dramatic difference in semantics or not, same result.
|
|
Well, it's a bit over the top, to be sure, but 4E was a bit like a 'last straw' for a crowd that was already feeling more and more alienated by WotC. To that end, when WotC was actually insulting previous-edition players so vehemently, I suppose that that pretty much it for them being civil.Though, in this case, the guy just wanted to avoid it outright, and didn't seem actually pushing past that point. It SOUNDS like he was trying to avoid any future conflicts, predicting that one would occur.
And, of course, he was right, as it turns out.
That could be the case. It seems a fairly provacative statement to leave on though, if you're trying to avoid conflict.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
To this guy`s credit it sounds like he wasn`t rude beyond that. From what I can tell he (or she) didn`t directly insult anyone or trash the game. So I`d put it down to yet another example of random human stupidity and move on.
He was classy in how he handled it afterwards and he did apologize (to a certain extent - it was more 'I'm sorry that I hate 4e that much'). I think what hit the hardest was that I'd had good conversations with the person before. I just couldn't believe someone would be so passionate about 4e that they couldn't even have a conversation about gaming with me.
Anyway, in retrospect, he's probably not really a douchebag. He had stronger emotions than I think are appropriate for the topic, but he showed a lot of self restraint in ignoring the conversation thereafter. I think my initial reaction was tainted by some by the hardcore haters here. I expected him to be like Razz, but he wasn't nearly that bad.
|
|
Either way though, dramatic difference in semantics or not, same result.Well, the difference, just for pointing it out, is that one way says "I dislike the game, therefore I won't help".. the other is "I dislike YOU, therefore I won't help." Sebasatian's statement says the latter (You like 4E, I dislike 4E, therefore I dislike you, therefore I won't help). The ACTUAL statement says "I dislike 4E, therefore I won't help you with 4E".
It's not parsing semantics, it's a huge difference in meaning and intent. The guy may have still been a jerk, but what he said profoundly affects his level of jerkdom.
Again, I don’t see the bit where Sebastian says that the guy says “therefore I dislike you.”
BUT, for me to continue to argue the point would be another random act of human stupidity, so I’ll agree to disagree with you and bow out.
I do like “profoundly effects his level of jerkdom” though…
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
That's effectively the point of the thread. "I won't help you as a person because you like 4E", is what Sebastian said, isn't it? And, again, that's not actually what HAPPENED, as I inquired about, and was proven right.
Not being able to understand what you read is not the same as being proven right. Go away troll.
|
|
He was classy in how he handled it afterwards and he did apologize (to a certain extent - it was more 'I'm sorry that I hate 4e that much'). I think what hit the hardest was that I'd had good conversations with the person before. I just couldn't believe someone would be so passionate about 4e that they couldn't even have a conversation about gaming with me.
Anyway, in retrospect, he's probably not really a douchebag. He had stronger emotions than I think are appropriate for the topic, but he showed a lot of self restraint in ignoring the conversation thereafter. I think my initial reaction was tainted by some by the hardcore haters here. I expected him to be like Razz, but he wasn't nearly that bad.
Thats kinda the point. He has a strong reaction or principle against 4e, but he's acted MUCH better than behavior exibated around here on edition wars.
There's nothing really wrong with it, but it just caught you unaware.
Re the original point of the thread, I must say I respect the chap you reference; as you say he sounds like he politely bade goodbye when he heard you were playing 4e, something he wants nothing to do with.Blind hate should be respected? I have seen plenty of 3.5 soldier-fanatics both over this whole Edition Wars and long before just trying to get someone to try a non-D20 game.
Yeah ... as others have already pointed out, the poster referenced by the OP did not actually act in any sense out of blind hate toward the OP - he merely did not wish to help in any way with a 4e game, said as much, then 'in a kinda classy way' backed away.
He clearly had made much the same decision as others of us; I want nothing to do with playing or running 4e (and certainly won't ever now buy anything released by wotc - though that's another argument to that here).
Re 3e Sardaukar, I can only go by what I've been witness to ... not saying you're wrong - I'm sure you're not, just that my back has been well and truly put out by the 4e fanatics. The kind that are very common on other prominent boards; who leap on any even vaguely negative review of 4e, or discussion of how it played, stating that the people voicing their concerns are wrong, or are playing the game wrong, or are brainwashed by earlier negative reviews, or are trolls, or should just not mention their concerns on 4e boards, etc etc.
Anyway, no point going over and over about it, just quickly answering your post.
Yeah ... as others have already pointed out, the poster referenced by the OP did not actually act in any sense out of blind hate toward the OP...
I never said he did.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Thats kinda the point. He has a strong reaction or principle against 4e, but he's acted MUCH better than behavior exibated around here on edition wars.There's nothing really wrong with it, but it just caught you unaware.
Not sure I agree with that. If I were the world's biggest Cubs fan and I was talking baseball with the world's biggest Mets fan, I would expect that we could have a discussion about baseball without the Mets fan saying "what? You're a Cubs fan!??! Sorry, I can't do anything to support the Cubs, not even talk about baseball with a Cubs fan."
If you feel that strongly about 4e that you can't even talk about gaming generally with someone because they play 4e, you seriously need to consider therapy. That is not part of a balanced mental health breakfast.
How he backed away was less an issue for me.
If I was trying to set up the plot of my game and I was asking for help. Then when someone in the room found out it was a 4e they decided not to help. I would be slightly irritated.
What should I do if they ask for help for their PFRPG or 2e game? Should I be kind and help him even if he has declared he will never help me with my games because of my system? Or should I just ignore his pleas for help because he wouldn't help me.
I feel that refusing to help someone who asks, just because they play a different game from you is very, very unhealthy for a community.
Yeah ... as others have already pointed out, the poster referenced by the OP did not actually act in any sense out of blind hate toward the OP...I never said he did.
Okay ... no offence then, but you'll need to explain your point to me a bit more clearly as that's what I took you to mean?
|
|
Try Mets and Yankees, or Cubs and Whitesox.... or better yet try Celtic and Rangers in Glasgow. One of my friends their is such a dedicated Rangers supporter that he will not allow anyone wearing any combination of green and white into his flat.
Some guy in Oklahoma gelded another guy for wearing a Longhorns hat in the bar.
Thats kinda the point. He has a strong reaction or principle against 4e, but he's acted MUCH better than behavior exibated around here on edition wars.There's nothing really wrong with it, but it just caught you unaware.
Not sure I agree with that. If I were the world's biggest Cubs fan and I was talking baseball with the world's biggest Mets fan, I would expect that we could have a discussion about baseball without the Mets fan saying "what? You're a Cubs fan!??! Sorry, I can't do anything to support the Cubs, not even talk about baseball with a Cubs fan."
If you feel that strongly about 4e that you can't even talk about gaming generally with someone because they play 4e, you seriously need to consider therapy. That is not part of a balanced mental health breakfast.
Eh ... it's tricky speaking for someone else, and trying to guess their motives third hand, but I'd imagine he simply feels so strongly against 4e he does not in any way wish to contribute to it possibly being a success.
Extreme? Certainly. But as he wasn't rude about it, why can't people just respect his decision and refrain from slagging him off here? I doubt he was mentally retarded, or in any sense in need of therapy, and see no evidence he did anything to warrant public flogging and name calling.
If you feel that strongly about 4e that you can't even talk about gaming generally with someone because they play 4e, you seriously need to consider therapy. That is not part of a balanced mental health breakfast.
Can't or just choose not to?
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Extreme? Certainly. But as he wasn't rude about it, why can't people just respect his decision and refrain from slagging him off here? I doubt he was mentally retarded, or in any sense in need of therapy, and see no evidence he did anything to warrant public flogging and name calling.
I guess if you think that helping someone when they ask and then withdrawing that help is an act of morale courage and principle, I don't have much else to say. I find it childish and rude, and I am heartened by the fact that I'm not alone. I don't know how acting decently to a fellow gamer "supports 4e" but if that's the conclusion you reach in your own mind, you need to grow up.
Okay ... no offence then, but you'll need to explain your point to me a bit more clearly as that's what I took you to mean?
The poster referenced by the OP acted out of a sense of blind hate for 4e. It is this kind of blind hate that has caused the Edition Wars. Granted this particular individual did not start a flame war, but that, in and of itself is not enough of a reason to respect someone. Plenty of people are capable of acting reasonably and not starting flame wars.
Why is Sebastian any less deserving of assistance just because he happens to play 4e?
|
|
Some guy in Oklahoma gelded another guy for wearing a Longhorns hat in the bar.Try Mets and Yankees, or Cubs and Whitesox.... or better yet try Celtic and Rangers in Glasgow. One of my friends their is such a dedicated Rangers supporter that he will not allow anyone wearing any combination of green and white into his flat.
i was jumped by some drunk aggie fratboys once for wearing a longhorn shirt. pathetic, really. i hope they enjoyed their time in TDC...
|
This whole thread is an attack on an anonymous poster on a just-as-anonymous chat room where we have Sebastian's word alone that he was absolutely innocent and that the guy being talked about was just a prick who said 'Oh, this is 4E, I'm leaving and won't help you, nyah!'.
Except all the other people that were there...
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Why is Sebastian any less deserving of assistance just because he happens to play 4e?Assuming, of course, we know the entire story, which we do not - though we do know that Sebastian's story has changed...
This whole thread is an attack on an anonymous poster on a just-as-anonymous chat room where we have Sebastian's word alone that he was absolutely innocent and that the guy being talked about was just a prick who said 'Oh, this is 4E, I'm leaving and won't help you, nyah!'.
Even though Sebastian admitted that the guy was civil and really just left to not be part of something he didn't like, is Sebastian REALLY deserving of service when he started this thread to attack the guy, and has made numerous insulting comments to him (none of which substantiated), including calling him 'clinically insane', and has had the need to personally attack ME on several posts.
I'm thinking that this thread serves no purpose other than as an attack, and should probably be closed as violating the very blurb up top there.
I see your reading comprehension still has not improved. If it had, you might note that other persons in the chat room at the time all this happened have responded to this thread. Take your threadstalking elsewhere, troll.