I'm sure I've said this before, but one correction that I would really like to see in Pathfinder (and I don't think this would kill anyone as far as a drastic rules change) is a substantial increase of the clothing prices...
why?
There is no way that the clothing, new that is, can be worth as little as they are priced at to be.
For one, most of the listed cloth (canvas included) is more expensive than the finished garments for peasant clothes... granted burlap would be cheaper than canvas but you get the point.
Second, considering that 1sp is the bottom wage per day, the mere cloth could not be woven up in a day's time, much less cut out and stitched together. And even with the higher priced outfits you have to consider the additional costs to make those boots and shoes... the leather, the working up, the stitching of the form.
There is no way that the clothing, new that is, can be worth as little as they are priced at to be.
While in theory I agree with your arguments...why would clothing be new? None of the prices in D&D are realistic. The economy of D&D itself is complete nonsense. Where does one start are stop when trying to inject realism.
You can try to put some realistic economy into Pathfinder (or any version of D&D) but I'm afraid you are doomed to countless hours of frustration and disappointment.
For realistic economies and item pricing seek out games like Hârn or Chivalry & Sorcery. The very concept of wealth hiding in holes in the ground being protected by monsters turns any sort of reasonable economy on its ear.
CJ
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Another potential solution would be to list everything by economical category. In my homebrew, I use:
Poor quality - 75% PHB list price. Prone to easily breaking (-1 item saves), -1 to diplomacy* checks.
Average quality - PHB list price.
Good quality - 125% PHB list price. Far more durable (+1 item saves), +1 to diplomacy.
Excellent quality - 150% PHB list price. (+1 item saves), +2 to diplomacy.
Mastercraft - 200%+ PHB list price. (+2 item saves), +2 to diplomacy.
(While I think this would make the Pathfinder economical system more detailed, I am quite sure it would also make it more complicated.)
Simply put, you might say that everything in the PHB is listed at the lowest possible cost (average quality), because the characters are shopping for bargains. It is assumed (in my homebrew) that the characters won't buy items of poor quality because their lives may depend on said item...
Overall, I've found this a great way to bridge the gap between masterwork quality items, magic quality items, and so on. Moreover, I can quickly make judgement calls on the cost of an inn, food, transportation, ect using this formula. So, if the players try to go to the nicer resturants in a city in poor clothing and are turned away, they know why. Likewise, if they make their way in, they are generally prepared to pay the price (150% PHB cost or better).
It's not perfect, but it does well enough for us.
*This is a one time (once per encounter) item bonus granted to characters trying to improve how NPCs view them. This bonus is only allowed if all of the character's gear is like or better quality. IE, a character must be wielding masterwork weapons (considered excellent quality weapons in my homebrew) and dressed entirely in excellent clothing (cloaks, boots, clothing, ect) to get the bonus.
I'm not going to demand the D&D economy make sense. It CAN'T given the abstraction of 'raw materials cost' in Crafting.
However, I would like the items in the PHB gone through to make sure that things cost more than the parts that make them up.
If only so that I can stop hearing about the great scam involving ladders and a hatchet. (For those who are not familiar, the process goes something like buy a ten foot ladder. Cut all the rungs. See it as two ten-foot poles at a profit. Repeat.)
Similarly, clothes should cost more than the cloth used to make them, and a spellbook should cost more than the pages that make it up.
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Oh, my dear fellows... please note the Gygaxian economic explanations that you'll find in books such as Insidae (Cross) and Living Fantasy (Gygax). I won't elaborate here, because the economic detail is robust, but for any DM looking to "make sense" of economics in their game play I'd suggest checking out Gygax's equations between dollars and gold for purposes of relating "realism" in your fantasy games (for those interested only, of course).
I don't really see a problem with economy in fantasy games. So a +3 sword costs 18.000 gp which is 180.000 daily wages for a commoner. True, that's a lot, but I don't really know for how long I would have to work to afford a $1,000,000,000 warship (that's what the things cost today)
A brand new leopard 2 tank would still be $3,500,000. Let's assume you make $7 per hour (I guess that's pretty bad, but does happen in the real world) or $70 per 10 hour day, it would be 50,000 days of work. Our 1st level commoner could have a +5 sword for that (hypotheticaly, because that would be about 140 years).
And I think robes of the archmage or +4 swords don't lie around in holes in the ground to be picked up by whoever finds them. If they do, the gm is making something wrong. There are items of imense value, but they are not part of everyday economy. It makes everything a bit more complicated, but the DMG has a gp limit for items for a reason. You can't simply walk into a large town (gp limit 3,000) and try to sell your +2 longsword (8,300 gp) to the local blacksmith, as you can't go to your used cars guy and ask him "hey, would you like to buy this tank I found for 2 million dollars?" ^^
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As far as economies going and a finished product costing more than its components...
I am going to refer to World of Warcraft here (I know I know, but it really serves as a good example).
They have a very robust economy on our server. The whole supply and demand thing really truly works. In addition you have people like me manipulating the market. I buy low valued products on the Auction House then turn around and relist them for more. I nearly always come out ahead.
Now, the WOW server is not a real world economy, but it is definitely an economy.
That being said, one of the things that drives me crazy is the backward economy of materials to products. I can sell a vest for 1G. It takes two bolts of silk to make. But I can sell the two bolts of silk for 2G. So why would I ever bother to sell the vest? I don't. I sell the mats.
And why is the WOW economy that way? There are thousands of players who can make that vest. And while everyone has access to the silk, not everyone has access when they need it. Therefore someone is willing to pay for that silk right now at a price higher than the vest is worth. So, why make the vest? Because it provides a nice armor or stat bonus, because you need it to get your skill up so you can make the item you REALLY want. But you make it because you need to.
Now, I'm NOT saying that the D&D economy works that way. But I am saying there is precedent for an economy working that way.
Personally I would like D&D to use a Silver Standard instead of Gold. I would love to see prices changed to more reflective of their relative worth. But it is a game and it works well enough.
As for the gold-silver standard and wages, I've always equated that 1sp/day wage as the kind of thing an unskilled labored makes. It's below modern minimum wage. Look at agricultural migrant workers now. They do not make $5/hr. Furthermore, anyone with even a few ranks in a Craft or Profession skill can make more than that. So 1sp/day is actually quite poor. Even the peasants who make that much are doing a lot of work to clothe, shelter, and feed themselves that just isn't being paid in coin.
Using a string of logic that I can no longer recall (23 and I'm already getting old), I equated a gold piece to about $40 or $50 in modern currency. At that level, most of the prices in the PHB at least come close to making sense. Magic items are still really expensive (a +1 sword costs the equivalent of $80,000), but it's reasonable that the rich can afford them. This figure may require adjustment if American stagflation continues at its current pace, but it holds for now.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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a spellbook should cost more than the pages that make it up.
Actually, it does. A spellbook is described as having 100 pages of parchment, which in fact is 50 sheets of parchment (each sheet has a front and a back page). 1 sheet of parchment is 2 sp, so 50 is 10gp. A blank spellbook is 15 gp, so has 5 gp left for covers, binding, and profit. This is assuming that you can't haggle a volume discount when buying 50 sheets of parchment at once or even more if you're in the book binding business and buy a lot of parchment over the course of a year.
True, it doesn't fit the 1/3 raw material rule that the craft skill uses, but a spellbook price more than covers the costs. Adjusting the price to 25-30 gp would probably be more realistic.
I thought spellbooks were paper? Paper costs more than parchment. Making it clear that an 'Entry level' spellbook (like a wooden holy symbol) is parchment would certain clear that one up.
There is no way that the clothing, new that is, can be worth as little as they are priced at to be.While in theory I agree with your arguments...why would clothing be new? None of the prices in D&D are realistic. The economy of D&D itself is complete nonsense. Where does one start are stop when trying to inject realism.
You can try to put some realistic economy into Pathfinder (or any version of D&D) but I'm afraid you are doomed to countless hours of frustration and disappointment.
For realistic economies and item pricing seek out games like Hârn or Chivalry & Sorcery. The very concept of wealth hiding in holes in the ground being protected by monsters turns any sort of reasonable economy on its ear.
CJ
Oh man, I totally agree. I tried to think about what a "realistic" industrial revolution would like look in D&D. They found me five days later huddled in the corner of my apartment with the lights off, mumbling things about inflation and create food/water.
My conclusion (after regaining consciousness) was that D&D is a pseudo-capitalist/feudalism system, where the entire world's economy effectively revolves around 4-5 people (the party).
My conclusion (after regaining consciousness) was that D&D is a pseudo-capitalist/feudalism system, where the entire world's economy effectively revolves around 4-5 people (the party).
Heh.
It isn't even that. It is a closed system geared entirely to facilitate the inputs and outputs from those 4-5 people. Attempts to extrapolate a coherent system more than 2 steps beyond the core group fail.
As such, as GM, you should make your players pay whatever you feel is necessary for goods and services. If you want them to be able to afford it, charge them less than the total amount of gold they have in hand. If you don't want them to buy something -- it should cost more.
CJ
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I just started reading this book and while it may not deal with overhauling your campaign's economy, it does put things into an interesting perspective. So far, it's a bit dry .... more of a history lesson in agricultural and industrial development.
YMMV