|
Read about it at Decision made.
Full post spoilerized below.
Green Ronin and 4E
I know a lot of fans have been waiting to find out if Green Ronin is going to support 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons and it's a fair question. Green Ronin's second product ever was Death in Freeport, an adventure for 3rd Edition that debuted the same day as the Player's Handbook almost eight years ago. We went on to do quite a lot of 3E support, ending only a couple of months back with the d20 Freeport Companion. Now Wizards of the Coast is terminating the d20 license and offering a different way to support the new edition of D&D. It's called the Game System License and we waited from August of last year until June of this year to see it. We've spent the last few weeks reviewing the license and discussing it internally and we have come to a consensus.
Green Ronin will not be signing the Game System License (GSL) at this time.
We plan to do one product in support of 4E: the Green Ronin Character Record Folio. This will be an update of the d20 System Character Record Folio and we'll be publishing it under the Open Game License (OGL).
Other than that we'll be giving our full attention to our own game lines: Mutants & Masterminds, A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying, True20 Adventure Roleplaying, and Freeport: The City of Adventure.
We had hoped to include 4E support in our plans, but the terms of the GSL are too one-sided as they stand. We certainly do not blame Wizards of the Coast for wanting to defend their intellectual property and take more control over the type of support products D&D receives. We do not, however, feel that this license treats third party publishers as valued partners. Under its terms WotC could frivolously sue a signatory for supposed violations of the GSL, lose the actual court case, and still ruin the winning company because the license specifies that the signatory has to pay WotC's legal fees. Also, the GSL can be changed at any time and WotC is not legally required to so much as inform its licensees.
Let me be clear in stating that I don't think that the people in charge of WotC currently are just waiting to attack companies with frivolous lawsuits. Once you sign the GSL though, you open yourself up to that at any point in the future. Who knows when new people will take over the D&D brand and who can say what their vision will be? Who knows when the political winds at WotC will change again and things will get even more restrictive? We do not want to operate under such a cloud moving ahead so that's why we won't be signing the GSL.
This means the Green Ronin Character Record Folio is the only 4E compatible product you'll be seeing from us this year and likely for 2009 as well. Perhaps WotC will revise the GSL in the positive way, but we cannot build our business on maybes. We know this will disappoint those of our fans who have embraced 4E and we're sorry about that. We have to make the best business decision for Green Ronin's future and right now this is it.
Thank you for your continued support.
Reaction: I think this is a smart and sensible move for Green Ronin. Personally, I was kinda expecting it.
The only real question, as far as I see, is whether or not Necro will be signing it. Of all the major 3pps (Paizo, Necro, Goodman, Mongoose, and GR), one is not supporting it all, 2 are supporting it without the GSL, and one is going GSL. But Necromancer, the loudest cheerleader of them all for WotC has been eerily silent for weeks now. I hope its due to Clark's day job, but I have a feeling that he's torn about what to do.
Well, I hope this means more Green Ronin love/support for True20 (including some Pathfinder conversions). Mutants & Masterminds has been getting a lot of products lately, but not so much for True20. I like both systems, but for different reasons.
|
|
Necromancer, the loudest cheerleader of them all for WotC has been eerily silent for weeks now.
Clark from Necromancer told everybody they won't be going GSL with their current trade marks (Advanced, Tome of Horrors, etc.), and they're still studying if they bring some new monster books.
But hey, GSL has also brought some great news: it'll be a Pathfinder Tome of Horrors!
Director of Brand Strategy
|
I hope all of this makes Wizards realize an update and loosening of the GSL is a good thing.
I personally think the restrictive GSL is a good thing--It's kept all the publishers I love doing OGL 3.x content. I couldn't have asked for anything more. If WotC released a carbon copy of the OGL for 4e it would have been a completely different situation, and GR, Goodman, Kenzer, Mongoose, and Necromancer would have all jumped on board without any underhanded skirting of the license. Maybe Paizo would have as well. WotC's decision to keep their IP in their total control is the best choice they could have made for someone like myself who wants little or nothing to do with them anymore. They can have their IP and their new, "better" edition. I'll stick with what I like, and they've made it much easier for me to do so.
|
|
Clark from Necromancer told everybody they won't be going GSL with their current trade marks (Advanced, Tome of Horrors, etc.)....I knew about the ToH but Advanced?
I hadn't heard that part either. Yikes.
I am hoping Clarks' silence comes from him entering a seperate deal with Wizards or some such thing. I guess we'll see when we see.
|
|
I hope all of this makes Wizards realize an update and loosening of the GSL is a good thing.I personally think the restrictive GSL is a good thing--It's kept all the publishers I love doing OGL 3.x content. I couldn't have asked for anything more. If WotC released a carbon copy of the OGL for 4e it would have been a completely different situation, and GR, Goodman, Kenzer, Mongoose, and Necromancer would have all jumped on board without any underhanded skirting of the license. Maybe Paizo would have as well. WotC's decision to keep their IP in their total control is the best choice they could have made for someone like myself who wants little or nothing to do with them anymore. They can have their IP and their new, "better" edition. I'll stick with what I like, and they've made it much easier for me to do so.
Never mind. I got all worked up by this and I need to edit my response. But I am taking my own advice and just taking a deep breath and ignoring this. I don't know if you were trying to be inciteful but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I like 4e and I would like to see third party material be a little easier to produce. If the GSL is loosened perhaps we could both benefit.
|
How nice for you. :) I hold an opposite opinion. I would like to see it be a little easier for third parties to do 4e material because I play 4e.I hope all of this makes Wizards realize an update and loosening of the GSL is a good thing.I personally think the restrictive GSL is a good thing--It's kept all the publishers I love doing OGL 3.x content. I couldn't have asked for anything more. If WotC released a carbon copy of the OGL for 4e it would have been a completely different situation, and GR, Goodman, Kenzer, Mongoose, and Necromancer would have all jumped on board without any underhanded skirting of the license. Maybe Paizo would have as well. WotC's decision to keep their IP in their total control is the best choice they could have made for someone like myself who wants little or nothing to do with them anymore. They can have their IP and their new, "better" edition. I'll stick with what I like, and they've made it much easier for me to do so.
Before a potential flamewar breaks out, I'd like to interject that there's no guarantee that Green Ronin, Mongoose, or -- especially -- Paizo would still have embraced 4E with a less restrictive GSL. Paizo has, both officially and on the messageboards, more than once stated it's happy with the 3.x system, feeling they can tell their stories best with it. Mr. Mona has also pointed out that learning a new ruleset enough to write its high-quality adventures is also time-consuming, something WotC didn't provide with its delays.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
Never mind. I got all worked up by this and I need to edit my response. But I am taking my own advice and just taking a deep breath and ignoring this. I don't know if you were trying to be inciteful but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I like 4e and I would like to see third party material be a little easier to produce. If the GSL is loosened perhaps we could both benefit.
Maybe I was being a bit inciteful, but it's too late to edit now. In any case, I think it's clear that WotC doesn't want to make 3pp stuff easier to make, and thus I would be very surprised if they ever update the GSL. Sorry if I got you all worked up. I'm sure the rebel-GSL stuff coming from Goodman will be as high-quality as everything else they've published in the past so at least there will be that.
GSL == epic fail.
I didn't realize Green Ronin signing the GSL had still been an open question, though I suppose if the post had to be made it must have been.
|
|
Maybe I was being a bit inciteful, but it's too late to edit now. In any case, I think it's clear that WotC doesn't want to make 3pp stuff easier to make, and thus I would be very surprised if they ever update the GSL. Sorry if I got you all worked up. I'm sure the rebel-GSL stuff coming from Goodman will be as high-quality as everything else they've published in the past so at least there will be that.
It's cool. I'm sorry I got so worked up. You know, I mention in another thread that all my gauges are screwed nine ways to next week, so I know a lot of why I feel so defensive stems from my own issues. I think I need to take a break from the boards. But you have to admit a lot the things said around here can be quite harsh (on both sides) so I think my reaction isn't entirely unwarranted. Heck, I am guilty of a good deal of snark myself and I am trying to ammend that.
I just want to discuss 4e and I want to do it here because I am a huge Paizo fan as well. It's nice to talk to other Paizo fans who enjoy 4e, perhaps even get some thoughts on gameplay, conversions, etc. But those threads always seem to drop off so fast in light of the more...."exciting" discussions.
As for the GSL, I can hope Wizards changes its mind, can't I? :)
For all we know there could be a "staring game" going on in Wizards right now. I think the company is probably pretty split. I hope the ones that want a looser GSL might make some headway with those that don't.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I honestly have sympathy for the 4.x crowd. I will confess to a bit of schadenfreude after reading people saying how I was being 'left behind' or in denial.
Being behind is looking more comfortable.
Edit: yoda8 I hope they change their minds too. But until those two big hazards are gone (court costs & retroactivity) I see most companies warry
|
|
GSL == epic fail.
I didn't realize Green Ronin signing the GSL had still been an open question, though I suppose if the post had to be made it must have been.
If the GSL had been open enough to allow them to make, for instance, a 4E Freeport Companion, without losing the right to make pretty much anything else, ever, I'm sure they would have leapt for it. It would have just been good business sense to support 4E, had WotC allowed that option.
As for the GSL opening up, most companies run six months or more ahead, so even if WotC blinks and changes it tomorrow, we won't be seeing any 3rd party 4E products until well after Christmas, I would think, and then only from the companies who were willing to trust WotC not to pull a Lucy and snatch the ball away again at the last minute (which I don't think they would do intentionally, as I don't think they are EVIL or anything, but could happen with a change in leadership or a new directive from the Hasbro mothership, leading to total ruination for any smaller press that tried to switch gears and support the open-GSL only to have it slammed in their face before they got to print, but after they'd already paid substantial development costs).
Any potential 3rd party 4E publisher has to have looked at the GSL and heard Admiral Akbar in their heads, shouting, "IT'S A TRAP!"
|
|
Under its terms WotC could frivolously sue a signatory for supposed violations of the GSL, lose the actual court case, and still ruin the winning company because the license specifies that the signatory has to pay WotC's legal fees. Also, the GSL can be changed at any time and WotC is not legally required to so much as inform its licensees.
Let me be clear in stating that I don't think that the people in charge of WotC currently are just waiting to attack companies with frivolous lawsuits. Once you sign the GSL though, you open yourself up to that at any point in the future.
I thought that this was the most interesting part of the whole release. It really makes you stop and think when guys like Green Ronin say we don't think the guys at WOTC would result to frivolous lawsuits to get rid of competition, but we're not ruling it out either.
I don't blame Green Ronin for this decision at all. I personally planned to self-publish some 4e adventures, but after reading the GSL, I scrapped that idea.
As far as 3pp, as a 4e player, I still plan to purchase 3pp (mostly Paizo) because I find 3pp adventures much better than what WotC has offered so far. I find converting easy and even kinda fun. I wonder how many others are out there that plan to do the same thing - another topic for another thread.
|
|
I knew about the ToH but Advanced?
Well, maybe I understood that too easily, but he said -Enworld.org MBs- that he won't give his PI to WotC so they'd be able to do whatever they'd want with it.
SO I understood Necro won't be converting their Advanced line.BUT I also understood they'll be creating 4e content similar to those product lines with new ones.
SO I think it's probable that some kind of Advanced manuals for 4e hit the FLGSs in the next months.
I'm not sure if they'll be under the GSL or not.
Personally, I think working outside the GSL frame is a risky but nice option, and fairly legitimate. Back to 2E days, isn't it?
---
About 3X/4E war:
I don't have any problem with 4e or 4e gamers, and I even like lots of things about the _new_ game, but I dislike WotC's corporative manners since some time to the present day.
I don't think it's a gaming discussion, I think it's a legal discussion that affects the gamer community.
From my POV, the OGL made the RPGs more popular -evidence: they have sold an incredible amount of basic handbooks-, and now that Karzoug rules over WotC -sorry, I couldn't avoid it! ;)- they'll be able to regain market percentage but splitting and agitating negatively the gamer community and the industry.
-Aritz
I don't blame Green Ronin for this decision at all. I personally planned to self-publish some 4e adventures, but after reading the GSL, I scrapped that idea.
Meh. I'm self-publishing a 4E-compatible adventure anyway. I'm just not doing it under GSL.
I wonder what influence GR's decision will have (if any) on other publishers.
Interesting stuff...
Meh. I'm self-publishing a 4E-compatible adventure anyway. I'm just not doing it under GSL.I don't blame Green Ronin for this decision at all. I personally planned to self-publish some 4e adventures, but after reading the GSL, I scrapped that idea.
I thought about that and here's where I ended up - it's already competitive enough to attempt to self-publish adventures. Without the advantages of using the GSL, it seems it will be that much more difficult.
I may reconsider when I've looked at the Goodman Game adventures though. Haven't had a chance.
Good luck, though, in your ventures.
I thought about that and here's where I ended up - it's already competitive enough to attempt to self-publish adventures. Without the advantages of using the GSL, it seems it will be that much more difficult.
I may reconsider when I've looked at the Goodman Game adventures though. Haven't had a chance.
Good luck, though, in your ventures.
Yeah, those are good points. I'm going to e-publish it and it's more or less a freebie to the community. If someone wants to paypal a buck or two, then that's cool but I'm not charging for the download. If the adventure is well-received I may think about trying to do a bit more as a serious business sidelines, but as it is I'm doing it more for fun than anything :)
I'm going to e-publish it and it's more or less a freebie to the community.
Let us know when you've got it up!
|
|
Other than that we'll be giving our full attention to our own game lines: Mutants & Masterminds, A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying, True20 Adventure Roleplaying, and Freeport: The City of Adventure.
Well, I won't comment the rest ... but I am a fan of GRR Martin, so that part about the new AGOT game is good. Yes mighty good to me.
Only thing to make me want to try something other than D&D in years ...
About 3X/4E war:
I don't have any problem with 4e or 4e gamers, and I even like lots of things about the _new_ game, but I dislike WotC's corporative manners since some time to the present day.
I don't think it's a gaming discussion, I think it's a legal discussion that affects the gamer community.
From my POV, the OGL made the RPGs more popular -evidence: they have sold an incredible amount of basic handbooks-, and now that Karzoug rules over WotC -sorry, I couldn't avoid it! ;)- they'll be able to regain market percentage but splitting and agitating negatively the gamer community and the industry.-Aritz
WotC obviously does not believe that they made a good move with the OGL. More telling evidence is that a lot of smaller publishers with good IPs watched what took place with Wizards and Dungeons and Dragons. Have you seen anything like open gaming for the Shadowrun IP? How about Gurps or World of Darkness? I could go on but you get the idea. Wizards basically have said they feel the OGL did not manage to do what they wanted it to do and it seems no one else with good intellectual properties has ever followed WotCs lead. The circumstantial evidence seems to indicate that WotC made a terrible mistake when they created the OGL.
Meh. I'm self-publishing a 4E-compatible adventure anyway. I'm just not doing it under GSL.I don't blame Green Ronin for this decision at all. I personally planned to self-publish some 4e adventures, but after reading the GSL, I scrapped that idea.
Why not put forth a submission to Dungeon?
Why not put forth a submission to Dungeon?
My understanding is that you have to pitch the idea first (i.e. a proposal), then submit if they like the pitch, etc. I'm not really interested in that process.
Plus, I think I'd rather just make this first one available than give over ownership to WotC :)
|
WotC obviously does not believe that they made a good move with the OGL. More telling evidence is that a lot of smaller publishers with good IPs watched what took place with Wizards and Dungeons and Dragons. Have you seen anything like open gaming for the Shadowrun IP? How about Gurps or World of Darkness? I could go on but you get the idea. Wizards basically have said they feel the OGL did not manage to do what they wanted it to do and it seems no one else with good intellectual properties has ever followed WotCs lead. The circumstantial evidence seems to indicate that WotC made a terrible mistake when they created the OGL.
The current Powers That Be at WotC/Hasbro may very believe that the OGL was a strategic mistake. But it was clearly of great value to the gaming community, and it reinvigorated an industry that was becoming somewhat stagnant.
d20/OGL provided exactly what the RPG industry & player community had been looking for for years -- a lingua franca set of game rules that any publisher, large or small, could provide accessories for, adapt for new settings & styles, and mix & match elements between publishers.
Players clamored for Steve Jackson to do this with GURPS back in the late 80s, but he made an executive decision that he didn't want the GURPS brand polluted with ancillary material of dubious quality. Had he gone the other way on that decision GURPS may very well be the 500 lb gorilla that d20 is today.
If you go back and you read Ryan Dancey's chain of logic that resulted in the OGL you will find that it was both completely sensible and adequately profit-seeking. Dancey was interested in resurrecting a brand that TSR had almost run into the ground -- 10 years later, mission accomplished. He did so by enlisting the support of nearly the entire RPG publishing industry, using a license that made it possible for all of them to play in the space.
Ultimately, I think that WotC/Hasbro now has a completely different vision for D&D than Dancey, and that's their business, to succeed or fail on their own strategy. Unfortunately for us, Paizo, Green Ronin, Necromancer, etc., the new strategy does not involve creating the kind of community participation that the 3E strategy involved. They have chosen the Cathedral over the Bazaar.
Clark from Necromancer told everybody they won't be going GSL with their current trade marks (Advanced, Tome of Horrors, etc.), and they're still studying if they bring some new monster books.
But hey, GSL has also brought some great news: it'll be a Pathfinder Tome of Horrors!
Clark said that right after the GSL was released. But since then he hasn't released any details about it, discussed how the license has changed his strategy for products, he hasn't updated his website since January. Hell he hasn't even updated the tagline of his company to 4E Rules, 1E feel except in the forementioned Jan announcement. His own forums says he hasn't even posted since June 20th (two days after he made the announcement you are referencing). No one's seen him on ENWorld in about that same amount of time. I think this is the longest I've seen him not post.
Clark said that right after the GSL was released. But since then he hasn't released any details about it, discussed how the license has changed his strategy for products, he hasn't updated his website since January. Hell he hasn't even updated the tagline of his company to 4E Rules, 1E feel except in the forementioned Jan announcement. His own forums says he hasn't even posted since June 20th (two days after he made the announcement you are referencing). No one's seen him on ENWorld in about that same amount of time. I think this is the longest I've seen him not post.
:O! The aliens got him!
Green Ronin
Be your own master.
That says it all.
|
|
I hope all of this makes Wizards realize an update and loosening of the GSL is a good thing.
I sure hope not. I want that GSL as tight as possible. If it gets loosened, people will start making 4e product, and as a gamer totally uninterested in playing or running 4e, that just means there'll be less stuff I can use out there. I'd like to see WotC close down any sort of licensing at all for 4e, frankly.
|
|
I hope all of this makes Wizards realize an update and loosening of the GSL is a good thing.I sure hope not. I want that GSL as tight as possible. If it gets loosened, people will start making 4e product, and as a gamer totally uninterested in playing or running 4e, that just means there'll be less stuff I can use out there.
Personally I'd like the GSL so-called "loosened" so publishers can produce dual-stat materials and thus satisfying everyone's tastes.
|
|
WotC seems to be throwing the third party publishers a bone, nothing more. By making the GSL restrictive and phasing out certain aspects of the OGL licenses, a gradual restoration of the status quo to the D&D brand is bound to occur.
I dont think its throwing 3rd party folks a bone. Its throwing its fans, the consumers one.
Think about it just for a moment. They OGL/GSL was suppose to be out in January. But it got delayed and delayed.....and then just before release, shortly, GSL came out.
If Wotc came out in January with this crappy license, or just came out and flatly said "we really dont want 3rd party products", the players might come at them with pitchforks.
Look how bad the flames were with the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon magazine. I dont think they were expecting that much backlash. And didnt want a repeat of it....
Let us know when you've got it up!
Thanks I will. Work has been hectic lately so that's slowing me down.
WotC seems to be throwing the third party publishers a bone, nothing more. By making the GSL restrictive and phasing out certain aspects of the OGL licenses, a gradual restoration of the status quo to the D&D brand is bound to occur.Thngs will eventually return to how they were before the OGL, with one company having "sole custody" (as it were). It works because for years, D&D was the exclusive property of TSR; it would work again, for WotC.
No they won't, because WotC can't phase out the OGL. The phasing out provisions only apply to people who sign on to GSL. OGL goes on in perpetuity for anyone who wishes to use it.
Personally I'd like the GSL so-called "loosened" so publishers can produce dual-stat materials and thus satisfying everyone's tastes.
amen
I want to choose
I hope all of this makes Wizards realize an update and loosening of the GSL is a good thing.
That'd surprise me. My opinion is that WotC doesn't want to share 4e -- the GSL exists primarily to conceal that fact. They've exhibited little or no credible evidence that they are interested in third-party contributions.
Paranoid? Yeah, probably :/
Personally I'd like the GSL so-called "loosened" so publishers can produce dual-stat materials and thus satisfying everyone's tastes.
amen. I want to choose
Yeah, but WotC doesn't want you to.
Have you seen anything like open gaming for the Shadowrun IP? How about Gurps or World of Darkness? I could go on but you get the idea.
Well, let's see. RuneQuest and Traveller have been released under the OGL itself. Next question?
|
|
Have you seen anything like open gaming for the Shadowrun IP? How about Gurps or World of Darkness? I could go on but you get the idea.Well, let's see. RuneQuest and Traveller have been released under the OGL itself. Next question?
And There is a version of the World of Darkness D20... most of it I am sure is not Open..