Cantrips, Channel, Orisons, Claws, powers, and the 1 level dip.


Races & Classes


I like the changes increasing the power of the sorcerer and the wizard at low level. I also like the alternations to the cleric. However I think this really makes these classes appealing for single level dips.

My sorcerer character is almost 4th level, he's definitely taking another level of sorcerer next level. However this morning on my way into work I started thinking about 1 level dips for some reason. What if my sorcerer took a single level of cleric?

He would gain Channel Positive Energy 6 times/ day, Orisons, First Level Cleric spells, plus access to the first level domain powers for 2 domains (some of which are quite nice).

Ok, maybe that's not so great but what about some others.

A rogue taking a 1 level sorcerer dip gains 2 full BAB attacks per round, unlimited cantrips, plus 2 1st level sorcerer spells.

I was thinking this was really bad but the more I think about it the more I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Dark Archive

I don't think its all that bad, nor unbalancing IMO. I sorta like it because now you can get some of the flavor of the other classes without having to take many levels. It was there before, but since there are more abilities at the early levels, it is more noticeable. This should open up character generation a bit, and you won't have to take as many levels to get the flavor of class.


It has always been the case that one level of a spellcasting class gives you a lot (ability to use wands/staves/scrolls, a few low-level spells, a domain/familiar/animal companion). But as long as you don't get anything that scales with character level instead of class level, it's not a big problem.

Having said that, I'm playing a Pathfinder monk with a level of sorcerer; I think I'll get a lot of mileage out of the ability to cast Mage Armor and Enlarge Person (and use wands/scrolls of other assorted buffs later on).


You are right- it's a quite nice little dip.

Monk 1 has always been a fairly nice dip for some classes as well.. (rogue for example, druid for another..)

Nothing really to stop it except the DM telling someone they can't do it.

-S

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager

Dennis da Ogre wrote:
A rogue taking a 1 level sorcerer dip gains 2 full BAB attacks per round, unlimited cantrips, plus 2 1st level sorcerer spells.

Remember, though, that "unlimited cantrips" are taken from a limited list known by the sorcerer. This list does not increase unless the PC takes additional sorcerer levels. Personally, I'd go with a dip in wizard, as it gets you at-will cantrips, and you can know any number of them if you add them to your spellbook, as well as a school power. But then again, I've always been more of a wizard person than a sorcerer person.


yoda8myhead wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
A rogue taking a 1 level sorcerer dip gains 2 full BAB attacks per round, unlimited cantrips, plus 2 1st level sorcerer spells.
Remember, though, that "unlimited cantrips" are taken from a limited list known by the sorcerer. This list does not increase unless the PC takes additional sorcerer levels. Personally, I'd go with a dip in wizard, as it gets you at-will cantrips, and you can know any number of them if you add them to your spellbook, as well as a school power. But then again, I've always been more of a wizard person than a sorcerer person.

Well I was thinking the rogue sorcerer was a good combo because the claws get you 2 attacks/ round at full BAB. It's better than dual short swords, finessable and can't be disarmed (well you can't remove the weapon without the hand). Cantrips are probably not that big a deal.


The level-on dip has been a bit problematic since the new-style multiclassing was introduced in 3.0. So long as the classes are frontloaded - and you get the full benefit of that frontloading with a one-level dip - it's going to be awkward. Perhaps you could split level one into "level 0" and "level 1". It wouldn't have much effect on dual-classes, but it would make it far less attractive to dip into several classes. If it seems unbalancing, provide some bonus skill ranks for those who take a rank-0 level after rank-0. That way the fact that they're acquiring a whole new set of skills would be properly represented.


This is an interesting thought... alternately you could have a small rules section on multi classing under each class. It's a tough call since multi classing is such a crap shoot. Different combinations of classes have different synergies. To be honest the 3.X multi classes really needs a serious overhaul. I don't see Paizo doing it under this release since backwards compatability is such a big goal. Maybe in a few years they will come out with a less compatible multi-class system which would resolve some of these issues.

What if characters only got some class benefits if they took a class as their first class. So if you take barbarian as second class you don't get accelerated movement until 3rd level. I'm not picking on the barbarian, If I were to do it I would break up almost all classes a bit. Maybe multi class clerics get their domains at 3rd level also.

It's the multi class paradox. At low levels I think multi class characters can be better. Once past about 4th level though the balance starts to swing the other way and higher level class benefits outweigh the early power boost from multi classing. It doesn't work that way for every combination but in general it seems to work that way.


Well, it has been done: our local games are using the point-buy rules from Eclipse: The Codex Persona (a free download at RPGNow) - which basically eliminated classes and prestige classes entirely while still breaking down and balancing the builds for all the SRD 3.0, 3.5, and Modern classes in the back. I was kind of hoping to see something more like that in Pathfinder, or at least a class-generation engine of some sort.


I do not see this as a problem in Pathfinder since all the classes now have good class abilities that you will miss out on if taking levels in other classes. And as always if you are playing a caster, taking levels in any other class (bar a prestige with caster level increase) will weaken you more then anything else you can get. Especially if you are a Sorcerer and you already are one level behind a wizard with higher levels spells available.

Once I had a Chaos gnome (+1 LA) Sorcerer in my party and he was almost useless.


Equally a problem: if you're going to use "level" as a measure of total effectiveness/power/whatever, and base encounters and XP awards on it, then two characters of equal level should be equally useful in a party regardless of design. Unfortunately, at least some multiclass combinations are somewhat overpowered at low levels and underpowered at high ones.

Secondarily, various campaigns have very different ranges of play. A three or four year campaign may wind up playing from levels 1-30 and up - and characters will get those high-end special abilities whether they delay a level or two or not. Other games may play for six months before ending and only cover a range of levels 4-6 - in which case nobody will be getting any advanced abilities and multiclassing may look a great deal better.

Secondarily, both "level" - and, to at least some extent - "class" are game constructs. Lets say that two players want to make a "mystic scout" and have roughly the same ideas about it. One makes a Rogue/Ranger/Sorcerer. Such a build can be tolerably effective at a number of things, but is it really likely to be as effective at levels level 20 (6/8/6) as another "mystic scout" with with the same background, and description of where and how he or she was trained, who took 20 levels in a "mystic scout" class which includes most of the same lesser abilities, but combines some of them at medium levels - after all, higher level abilities should be more potent than those for lower levels - and then adds some capstone special abilities based on how those lesser abilities work together? The one character will be much more effective than the other based purely on player activities (a.k.a "Metagaming") rather than on anything in the game world.

Classes are very convenient for creating characters quickly, and are a valuable tool for making NPC's - but players should be allowed to build the characters they want without being penalized because no one's gotten around to making up a "class" that fits their idea yet.

The Exchange

Quentyn wrote:
Well, it has been done: our local games are using the point-buy rules from Eclipse: The Codex Persona (a free download at RPGNow) - which basically eliminated classes and prestige classes entirely while still breaking down and balancing the builds for all the SRD 3.0, 3.5, and Modern classes in the back. I was kind of hoping to see something more like that in Pathfinder, or at least a class-generation engine of some sort.

Link please!


Fake Healer wrote:
Quentyn wrote:
Well, it has been done: our local games are using the point-buy rules from Eclipse: The Codex Persona (a free download at RPGNow) - which basically eliminated classes and prestige classes entirely while still breaking down and balancing the builds for all the SRD 3.0, 3.5, and Modern classes in the back. I was kind of hoping to see something more like that in Pathfinder, or at least a class-generation engine of some sort.
Link please!

Let's see if I can get this right:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=17110&pr oducts_id=51255

Whoa - I know Link Fu..... ;P

Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"

The Exchange

Thank ye kindly, Dalesman. Keep bringin' Big D**n Justice, brother.


Quick question on the Rogue/Sorc dip

You get 2 full BAB 1d6 attacks at 2nd level which is sweet at low levels but kinda falls away quickly after that, is there any way to scale them within the core classes assuming you wanted to play a claw rogue with some magic utility spells all the way up to 20th ?

Shadow Lodge

Phasics wrote:

Quick question on the Rogue/Sorc dip

You get 2 full BAB 1d6 attacks at 2nd level which is sweet at low levels but kinda falls away quickly after that, is there any way to scale them within the core classes assuming you wanted to play a claw rogue with some magic utility spells all the way up to 20th ?

Well if you dual class then the claws upgrade at Sorc 5 to magic, at Sorc 9 (I think) they do 1d8. Otherwise you could probably self buff with spells. I think if you wanted to do rogue/ sorcerer then you are best going at least sorcerer 5 so you get invisibility plus magic claws.


That is why SWSE came up with the greatest multiclass rules yet.
Best thing they done is remove spellcasting from specific classes and from levels. So you can take any class and still be a useful if not powerful spellcaster.
Then they removed the favored class and any alignment restrictions (or better to say, removed alignments altogether).
Then they made all prestige classes more approachable even if you do not have the perfect class for it.

I wish Pathfinder could somehow introduce some elements from SWSE.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Phasics wrote:

Quick question on the Rogue/Sorc dip

You get 2 full BAB 1d6 attacks at 2nd level which is sweet at low levels but kinda falls away quickly after that, is there any way to scale them within the core classes assuming you wanted to play a claw rogue with some magic utility spells all the way up to 20th ?

Alternatively you use some of your feats (~'improved natural attack') to keep some stuff scaling. I assume that the sorceror / wizard / cleric abilities will have some upgrade feats available (possibly after beta though)

I think this does balance out over the levels but it does mean you can optimise at low levels and pay the price later (or possibly vice versa)....

I guess wether this is a problem or not depends on wether you play 1-20 campaigns or limited level games.....


Fake Healer wrote:
Thank ye kindly, Dalesman. Keep bringin' Big D**n Justice, brother.

I will indeed, sir. My pleasure! :)

Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"

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