Unless the pre-reqs for creating a[n] [undead] included [a caster level appropriate to their CR].
Like every construct does! (I suppose scrolls with a higher caster level could be purchased, but that's more expensive, and can be done with a scroll of Create Greater Undead anyway.)
The spell works fine in 3.5 because of the high caster level required to create undead. It's not hard to accept that a 15th level necromancer has the knowledge to create a Death Knight. It IS hard to accept that a lower level necromancer with the feat and a couple scrolls would be able to create a Death Knight.
Currently, a level 18(!) necromancer can barely create a Devourer or Morgh, which wouldn't even be a relevant challenge to the adventurers storming his secret hideout.
I still feel a single feat is too simplistic an approach. I'd like to hear KQ's take on it, if they respond.
Making it a single feat, with separate requirements for each type of undead would be a very long entry. You'd have to list every prerequisite for every type of undead, then all the spells needed to create it.
I still believe a feat chain would be better for these purposes. Maybe something like:
Craft Minor Undead
Prerequisites: Caster Level 3, Non-Good Alignment, able to cast Animate Dead or ability to rebuke undead.Craft Corporeal Undead
Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Craft Minor UndeadCraft Incorporeal Undead
Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Craft Minor UndeadThe types of undead each feat allows the user to create and spells necessary to create them should be listed under each feat.
Also, a disclaimer indicating that any type of undead utilizing a template (Vampire, Ghost, Lich, etc) cannot be created in this manner.
This series of feats would help with Ross' concern that the current spells for creating undead are too high level (I still disagree with it) and with the variety of undead that exist.
Well then why don't we have a create construct feat chain as well? Homunculi and ironforge wyrm are vastly different in power level and nature, but they can be made with the same feat. Is that okay?
I'd still prefer one feat with CL, spell, body and cost requirements to multiple feats invested in creation of servants roughly on par with those created with construct creation feat. If something then I'd prefer to see the 'create undead' feat sitting on top of two other otherwise useful feats. Spell focus (necromancy) and Create Wondrous Item (You need this one to achieve lichdom, so the connection can be justified).
Create Wondrous Item (You need this one to achieve lichdom, so the connection can be justified).
Well, most undead don't require Phylacteries, which is why Liches need Create Wondrous Item. If it were up to me, I'd just make it that Liches need Craft Undead instead.
Craft wondrous item would indirectly require a caster level requirement, which is important (since a Rogue could take Spell Focus (Necromancy) if they really wanted), but I'd rather just force a CL requirement on Craft Undead itself.
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Well then why don't we have a create construct feat chain as well? Homunculi and ironforge wyrm are vastly different in power level and nature, but they can be made with the same feat. Is that okay?
Yes, that is perfectly OK. All constructs are a hodge podge of different ingredients, so the same feat applies to their creation as long as all of the parts needed are available. Undead were living beings prior to their undead state, which is a HUGE difference.
As I stated in an earlier post, Constructs are closer to wands in terms of makeup than to undead.
I do not understand why so many people put Constructs in the same basket as Undead.
Yes, that is perfectly OK. All constructs are a hodge podge of different ingredients, so the same feat applies to their creation as long as all of the parts needed are available. Undead were living beings prior to their undead state, which is a HUGE difference.
As I stated in an earlier post, Constructs are closer to wands in terms of makeup than to undead.
I do not understand why so many people put Constructs in the same basket as Undead.
I don't see why a Clay Golem (which is simply an animated mass of clay, no moving parts) and clockwork constructs are any closer together than a Mummy and a Wraith.
I also don't see how it's closer to a wand than a creature. A wand shows up under detect magic. Constructs don't.
Honestly, it seems like undead should be more similar too each other, since the ingredients of a ghoul, a ghast, and a mummy are all ex-living creatures, while a homonculus, a flesh golem, and a shield guardian all have different materials, constructions, and animating forces.
One set of knowledge doesn't allow you to create any construct, anymore than Craft Wand lets you make any wand, either: A wizard will never be able to create a Clay Golem without Wishing for cleric spells. A Cleric can't make a Flesh Golem without several Miracles. A wizard who doesn't know how to Animate Dead can't make a flesh golem, because they lack the correct knowledge. The feat, like the Craft Item feats, just represents a baseline knowledge of enchanting permanent, non-dispelable magical effects. You still need specific spell knowledge and materials to create specific constructs.
Creating undead isn't the same as creating a construct. But they can be and should be mechanically similar. A Craft Undead feat would mark the basic, fundamental knowledge needed to animate undead creatures in a permanent manner, while specific spell and material (and caster level) needs can be applied to specific types of undead to differentiate their creation in a flavorful and interesting way.
Just, as an example, wouldn't you prefer:
Creating a Devourer:
Creating a devourer requires the body of a medium humanoid. Animating this body as a devourer requires an elaborate ritual, binding the new undead to the Astral or Etheral plane. During this ritual, the body grows tall and gaunt, leaving the Devourer's distinctive chest cavity. At the completion of the ritual, devourer may be provided with a Trapped Essence from a soul trapped using other means (such as Magic Jar or Trap the Soul), or via the sacrifice of a living creature. The devourer can be created without a trapped essence, but will be unable to use its Spell-like abilities until it can trap an essence for itself.
CL 12th; Craft Undead, Caster Level 12th, Magic Jar, Planar Binding (any), Enlarge Person, Enervation, Spectral Hand; Market Price 12,000 gp; Cost to Create 6000 gp
To:
Cast Create Greater Undead at 18th caster level on a dead body, using a clay pot of grave dirt and another of brackish water, and a material component of 600 gp of black onyx.
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Yes, that is perfectly OK. All constructs are a hodge podge of different ingredients, so the same feat applies to their creation as long as all of the parts needed are available. Undead were living beings prior to their undead state, which is a HUGE difference.
As I stated in an earlier post, Constructs are closer to wands in terms of makeup than to undead.
I do not understand why so many people put Constructs in the same basket as Undead.
I don't see why a Clay Golem (which is simply an animated mass of clay, no moving parts) and clockwork constructs are any closer together than a Mummy and a Wraith.
I also don't see how it's closer to a wand than a creature. A wand shows up under detect magic. Constructs don't.
Honestly, it seems like undead should be more similar too each other, since the ingredients of a ghoul, a ghast, and a mummy are all ex-living creatures, while a homonculus, a flesh golem, and a shield guardian all have different materials, constructions, and animating forces.
One set of knowledge doesn't allow you to create any construct, anymore than Craft Wand lets you make any wand, either: A wizard will never be able to create a Clay Golem without Wishing for cleric spells. A Cleric can't make a Flesh Golem without several Miracles. A wizard who doesn't know how to Animate Dead can't make a flesh golem, because they lack the correct knowledge. The feat, like the Craft Item feats, just represents a baseline knowledge of enchanting permanent, non-dispelable magical effects. You still need specific spell knowledge and materials to create specific constructs.
Creating undead isn't the same as creating a construct. But they can be and should be mechanically similar. A Craft Undead feat would mark the basic, fundamental knowledge needed to animate undead creatures in a permanent manner, while specific spell and material (and caster level) needs can be applied to specific types of undead to differentiate their creation in a flavorful and...
I'm guessing we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point.
I see where you're going with it, but just don't agree with the constructs = undead approach to the feats. (Maybe it's because I'm a Lich and know firsthand what I had to go through to become one...)What I'd love to hear, though, are some of the Paizonians' views on this topic.
Barring that, Ross, if you could let me/us know what KQ says about your submission, it would be greatly appreciated!
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Just, as an example, wouldn't you prefer:
Creating a Devourer:
Creating a devourer requires the body of a medium humanoid. Animating this body as a devourer requires an elaborate ritual, binding the new undead to the Astral or Etheral plane. During this ritual, the body grows tall and gaunt, leaving the Devourer's distinctive chest cavity. At the completion of the ritual, devourer may be provided with a Trapped Essence from a soul trapped using other means (such as Magic Jar or Trap the Soul), or via the sacrifice of a living creature. The devourer can be created without a trapped essence, but will be unable to use its Spell-like abilities until it can trap an essence for itself.
CL 12th; Craft Undead, Caster Level 12th, Magic Jar, Planar Binding (any), Enlarge Person, Enervation, Spectral Hand; Market Price 12,000 gp; Cost to Create 6000 gp
To:
Cast Create Greater Undead at 18th caster level on a dead body, using a clay pot of grave dirt and another of brackish water, and a material component of 600 gp of black onyx.
It's good, but I don't see how a feat chain based on the different types of undead and caster level could not equally apply to your entry. Just change Craft Undead to Craft Corporeal Undead to reflect greater experience in the necromantic arts.
Honestly, if I had my druthers, I would like a way to create undead without assigning a gold piece value to them. My players would see that and assume they could purchase one.
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Another way to look at it is that a mechanical engineer can design both a rocket and a rollercoaster, even though they're both very different from each other, using the same skill set. Once he's got the mechanical engineering knowledge, he can design anything based on the similar mechanical principles he knows.
In the same way, a necromancer with the basic necromancy knowledge from a Craft Undead feat could use that knowledge to make a mummy, wraith, or skeleton.
Honestly, if I had my druthers, I would like a way to create undead without assigning a gold piece value to them. My players would see that and assume they could purchase one.
Yeah. I'd assume that cost might actually matter in a truly Evil nation where undead might be less frowned upon. Of course, that bit could be stricken. The important part is the cost to create.
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Making it a single feat, with separate requirements for each type of undead would be a very long entry. You'd have to list every prerequisite for every type of undead, then all the spells needed to create it.
No, that's not the case. The Craft Wand feat doesn't list the prerequisite for every type of wand, the Craft Construct feat doesn't list the prerequisite for every type of golem, etc. There's no need to include such a list in the description of the the feat. It makes far more sense to include the prerequisites in the creature description, the same way it's done with golems and other constructs.
Paizo could easily include such statistics in their new monster manual, or they could -- as has been suggested -- do a Classic Undead Revisited book.
It also doesn't make any sense to me to have multiple feats. You only need one feat to create every single possible type of construct, or to create every single possible wondrous item. Making it a matter of many different feats seems to serve no purpose except to hamper and punish necromancers for favoring undead minions over construct minions, which is weird since constuct minions are almost inevitably superior (can't turn a construct, for example).
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Also, Larry, I think you are assuming a LOT of flavor about undead that isn't part of other people's common assumptions about the game.
Like, I seriously can't understand why you can't understand why everyone is comparing constructs and undead. They are so incredibly similar in most people's minds that it makes for what we see as a compelling argument.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Also, Larry, I think you are assuming a LOT of flavor about undead that isn't part of other people's common assumptions about the game.
Like, I seriously can't understand why you can't understand why everyone is comparing constructs and undead. They are so incredibly similar in most people's minds that it makes for what we see as a compelling argument.
You may be right. Undead are a HUGE part of my campaigns, both as a player and a DM, and my interests outside the game lean toward legends and mythology surrounding undead creatures, so that may be blocking my ability to see them the way so many others seem to see them.
However, my main argument is that undead aren't pieced together or assembled like Constructs or Items. With Constructs or Items, you just obtain all of the ingredients, blend them together in the right ratio and order, and you have your complete product.
With Undead, I don't see how the process for their creation can fall into this same process. Since the origin of an undead creature is not a conglomeration of different ingredients blended together (they all start as living creatures, which Constructs and Items do not), I have trouble buying into an all-encompassing feat for their "creation."
Then there's the issue of controlling your creation. For the most part, Constructs (regardless of type) can be enchanted to do what they're told, and make great servants. Undead, on the other hand, tend to have their own agendas once you hit a certain HD level, which could be problematic for their creator if he/she tried to control them.
Construct: Undead = Apples: Oranges
Another thought: if we have a feat that allows one to convert a once-living being into a creature, why not have another feat that allows one to use other living creatures to create an Aberration? Or a Magical Beast? It would seem to me that a Conjurer or Abjurer who is familiar with these creatures and/or their abilities may know enough to make them as well. But that's another issue...
I realize I'm in the minority on this topic, but I can see everyone else's points as well. I'm just not convinced a single feat is the way to go for this issue based on my experiences using and battling Undead. YMMV.
Another thought: if we have a feat that allows one to convert a once-living being into a creature, why not have another feat that allows one to use other living creatures to create an Aberration? Or a Magical Beast? It would seem to me that a Conjurer or Abjurer who is familiar with these creatures and/or their abilities may know enough to make them as well. But that's another...
Isn't that how Owlbears happened? Heck, Pathfinder products keep dropping the term 'fleshforges'.
Oh, and Larry, my position isn't that you're making Undead more complex than they need to be, it's that you're underselling other magic items and constructs.
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I still think this is a great idea. Ross has shown that creating an entry for undead whould be no more difficult than a magic item. I see no need for multiple types of Create Undead feats for "greater" undead, when a caster level and requirements alredy fill that need. The spells would then only create "temporary" undead, nuch like a conjurer. Permenant undead would require the feat.
All in all, some really good suggestions.
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However, my main argument is that undead aren't pieced together or assembled like Constructs or Items. With Constructs or Items, you just obtain all of the ingredients, blend them together in the right ratio and order, and you have your complete product.
With Undead, I don't see how the process for their creation can fall into this same process. Since the origin of an undead creature is not a conglomeration of different ingredients blended together (they all start as living creatures, which Constructs and Items do not), I have trouble buying into an all-encompassing feat for their "creation."
See, I tend to think of most undead as being the result of necromantic rituals, rather than being naturally occurring. Some sorts of undead -- ghosts, phantoms, revenants -- seem to originate naturally, but the the vast majority seem to be more along the lines of skeletons, zombies and mummies: created by necromancers for a specific purpose.
And what's the difference between a zombie and a mummy, really? Some linen wrappings, some herbs and spices, and a bit more powerful mojo in the animation. Both get used as guards for important sites, though you never see mummies getting used to
Or like, consider a skeleton: just animated bones, right? But with the addition of a enchanted circlet that binds a intelligent soul to the bones, and various magical treatments to those bones to make them more powerful, a mere skeleton.
Undead aren't pieced together... Well, mummy is certainly a little upgraded over the original body and the lich also needs certain accessories to exist, but later on there are things that have more common with the constructs. And what happens with that onix gem anyway? Does it somehow become part of the dead creature or it simply falls off once the animation ritual is complete?
Blaspheme is assembled from multiple parts, just like charnel hounds and necronauts. Neither monster entry allows PC creation, but they all are a result of some necromantic rituals and their bodies are put together before animation. Blood hulk, necrosis carnex and plague walker are also assembled and they can even me made by PCs. Neither of these appears naturally.
Raiment is formed from clothes posessed by vengeful spirit. Helmed horror is a full plate posessed by an evil spirit. The first one is undead, the second is a construct.
Necromental is an undead elemental, not much in common with the living...
Some undead may not be created, some must. All we were talking about was possible mechanic of undead origin through PCs actions. The feat may be called 'Animate Dead' or whatever. I don't care, but from the game mechanic point of view I think that one feat with assembling requirements is a way to go.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Another thought: if we have a feat that allows one to convert a once-living being into a creature, why not have another feat that allows one to use other living creatures to create an Aberration? Or a Magical Beast? It would seem to me that a Conjurer or Abjurer who is familiar with these creatures and/or their abilities may know enough to make them as well. But that's another...
Isn't that how Owlbears happened? Heck, Pathfinder products keep dropping the term 'fleshforges'.
Hmm...Maybe Pathfinder has something in mind for this already?
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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It seems very much like you're getting hung up on the word "Craft" as part of the concept of a Craft Undead feat. Magic item crafting often doesn't involve creating the base physical part of the object in question at all. One needs, for instance, to start with a masterwork weapon before enchanting a magic weapon. One needs to build the body of a golem separately (as represented in the RAW by a craft check or third-party purchase) before animating it. Likewise with undead - one isn't necessarily creating the body or creature. Just enchanting and dressing it so that it is (re)animate. Nobody thus far has proposed that a Craft Undead feat would allow a person to build or assemble bodies from scratch..
However, my main argument is that undead aren't pieced together or assembled like Constructs or Items. With Constructs or Items, you just obtain all of the ingredients, blend them together in the right ratio and order, and you have your complete product.
Someone has to obtain the parts prior to crafting, whether it's items, constructs, or Undead. They can either be purchased pre-assembled, or assembled by the crafter himself. I'm not stuck on the crafter assembling the item, just that constructs and items have to be assembled prior to the final creation. Undead are already "complete" in that all you need is a dead body. Nothing further has to be made/forged/created.
Likewise, there has neither been any assumption on anyone's part save your own that 1) ALL undead could be created through the feat; 2) that all undead would HAVE to be created through use of the feat (as opposed to being unintentionally created by metaphysical side-effects of some cosmically tragic or evil event for instance); or 3) that a crafter would automatically know how to create ALL types of undead simply by possessing the feat..
Why limit the types of undead that can be created if you don't limit the types of constructs that can be created with the Craft Construct feat?
Then there's the issue of controlling your creation. For the most part, Constructs (regardless of type) can be enchanted to do what they're told, and make great servants. Undead, on the other hand, tend to have their own agendas once you hit a certain HD level, which could be problematic for their creator if he/she tried to control them.Uhh...control and compulsion are amongst the most classic aspects of undead in fantasy literature. For instance: Newly formed vampires being forced to obey their creators; zombies working together in their mindless,...
True, but in the examples you provide from literature are very different from what we are proposing: New vampires are generally created by other vampires who have domination as part of their skillset. These smaller vampires constantly long for a way to break that control. Zombies are mindless and driven by their instincts to feed, or controlled by more intelligent beings due to magic (like Voodoo Houngans). In both cases, controlling the undead that have been created requires a separate ability from their initial creation.
In game terms, creating undead and controlling them can be (and should be) two different concepts - especially when dealing with intelligent undead.
Someone has to obtain the parts prior to crafting, whether it's items, constructs, or Undead. They can either be purchased pre-assembled, or assembled by the crafter himself. I'm not stuck on the crafter assembling the item, just that constructs and items have to be assembled prior to the final creation. Undead are already "complete" in that all you need is a dead body. Nothing further has to be made/forged/created.
I think mummies are an archetypal undead which requires additional effort to be applied to the body. Death knights and Liches might not require changes to the body, but they require creating a linked object.
Why limit the types of undead that can be created if you don't limit the types of constructs that can be...
The types of constructs that can be constructed is limited. Even within the SRD, there are no rules for the creation of Inevitables: They have to come from a Lawful plane, where some greater entity or perhaps a self-sustaining forge creates them. Clockwork horrors can be made, but only by other clockwork horrors (IIRC).
Most constructs have creation rules, simply because in fantasy, golems don't come from nowhere. But that doesn't mean they have to be made by mortal hands.
In the same vein, many types of undead are associated with creation or animation by a necromancer. Skeletons, zombies, and mummies being the most traditional. However, only a Vampire can make another Vampire. Nightshades are simply embodiments of shadow and negative energy (and might not be ex-living at all). Allips and ghosts are only created through certain types of death.
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Someone has to obtain the parts prior to crafting, whether it's items, constructs, or Undead. They can either be purchased pre-assembled, or assembled by the crafter himself. I'm not stuck on the crafter assembling the item, just that constructs and items have to be assembled prior to the final creation. Undead are already "complete" in that all you need is a dead body. Nothing further has to be made/forged/created.
At some point Larry, you're just arguing to argue. And I think we've reached that point. People have already tossed out plenty of examples of undead that require construction or preparation of some sort.
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Someone has to obtain the parts prior to crafting, whether it's items, constructs, or Undead. They can either be purchased pre-assembled, or assembled by the crafter himself. I'm not stuck on the crafter assembling the item, just that constructs and items have to be assembled prior to the final creation. Undead are already "complete" in that all you need is a dead body. Nothing further has to be made/forged/created.At some point Larry, you're just arguing to argue. And I think we've reached that point. People have already tossed out plenty of examples of undead that require construction or preparation of some sort.
Not meaning to be a pain. I just want to make sure I got my point across so people can understand my view on undead. I have done so, so I will beg out of the conversation.