This has been brought up before, but I'd like to bring it up again. Creating undead should be made a feat, like constructs. After all, there isn't a Create Greater Golem spell.
This would ahve several benefits, such as require more exotic undead to have higher creation (and more flavorful) costs than 'A corpse and a diamond.'
It would also mean that Necromancers could actually make CR relevant undead! As it stands, by the time a Wizard can make zombies, zombies are a utter non-threat, and so on up the chain.
Undead creating magic still has it's place. However, the current spells can be adapted to be more in line with Summoning spells, temporarily animating corpses.
Discuss.
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I haven't seen this idea brought up before, but it makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, I think that the basic vanilla animate dead (they're tastier than you'd think!) is still worth having as a spell working just as it does now, for creating zombies and skeletons. Sure a human zombie isn't much of a threat at 9th level, but a troll skeleton or some other monster animated undead isn't too bad.
The craft undead feat would be a lot better though than the create (greater) undead spells.
I haven't seen this idea brought up before, but it makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, I think that the basic vanilla animate dead (they're tastier than you'd think!) is still worth having as a spell working just as it does now, for creating zombies and skeletons. Sure a human zombie isn't much of a threat at 9th level, but a troll skeleton or some other monster animated undead isn't too bad.
That's true, but it could still have a non-permanent duration, and discard the materials cost (The onyx, not the bodies.) So the evil necromancer can still create undead in combat, but they fall dead again afterwards, like Animate Objects.
The craft undead feat would be a lot better though than the create (greated) undead spells.
Yeah. they're really the proud nail. Yes, I'd love be be CL20 to make a CR11 devourer! It's not even like its powered down so it's not broken as a combat summon (I mean Summon Monster IX only gets CR 12 creatures), since they take an hour to cast.
I'm just sick of seeing every adventure stating that the undead made by the BBEG were made using scrolls, since if you were expecting to actually fight the BBEG and have the undead be challenging, they have to be within 4 CR levels or so of each other.
If Craft Undead does become a feat though, items similar to the Golem Manuals should be introduced for some of the more common types of 'Created' undead, like Mummies.
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I think I agree witht he OP.
It looks to me that necromancers should be training in something like this.
Sure the cost to create would need to be tweeked, Summon undead spells would make more sense to bring undead servitors for temporary uses. The amount of undead should be controled like leadership rules.
I didn't think I would agree with this originaly so to the OP, you have a compelling idea.
to the OP, you have a compelling idea.
Thank you, but I can't take credit. Someone else brought it up during Alpha one. I wanted to see if I could get the idea to gain some traction.
That's some really nice idea... undead creation with rituals sounds wonderful. I think that some sort of 'Craft (Undead)' skill (maybe part of spellcraft) can also be used to determine the number of HDs the creator can control.
The undead summoning had already been done in the Spell Compendium (Summon Undead Spells are on both Cleric and Srocerer/Wizard lists and they also appeared among Blackguard spells). No problem with them so far...
I like this a lot.
The feat could make skeletons and zombies permanent, otherwise the animate-dead spell could last 1 day/level or something like that without expensive components (required with using the Feat).
The fluff would be great and you could consider having Craft Lesser and Craft Greater Undead feats to differentiate and limit.
Sound's like a house-rule to me no matter what.
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This has been brought up before, but I'd like to bring it up again. Creating undead should be made a feat, like constructs.
I like this mainly because I've always liked the idea of a Necromancer being able to 'enchant' his undead. This zombie blows up like a Fireball when killed, that skeleton has Haste, etc.
The Corpsecrafting Feats in Libris Mortus did something like that, but I didn't like that it cost an entire Feat for each different effect (plus a prerequisite Feat), when one could use a single Feat to make hundreds of different magic items.
Then again, I've never liked the Item Creation feats either, so having undead creation become yet another of them just standardizes them into a system that bugs me...
Then again, I've never liked the Item Creation feats either, so having undead creation become yet another of them just standardizes them into a system that bugs me...
Craft Construct doesn't work in quite the same way as magic item creation either. It's more like it'd make crafting creatures its own subsystem, instead of Craft Construct being all on its own.
I was in favor of Create Undead and Create Greater Undead being feats before, and I remain so. It's a logical change, both in terms of congruity of games rules, and in terms of allocation of resources for useful payoff (a spell that grants permanent troops sort of rubs me the wrong way).
I concur, give us a Craft Undead feat!
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I like the idea. Craft Undead may be a bit broad and where would the dividing line be for Craft Greater? We need a list of craftable undead and and see if we can get a logical division in there. Perhaps 3 or 4 classes of undead? Animated Remains, Incorporeal, Lesser Aware and greater aware so you don't end up with necromancers with an army of zombies at the cost of 2 feats.
More than the creation feats I like the idea of limited duration combat undead spells. It neatly gets around the zombie apocalypse mid level necromancer army problem.
Well, the line may be set by the DC for undead creation and another roll for controll. To animate a death knight you need to roll better than to make a skeleton. Sure a low level necromancer may be able to animate a vampire with a natural 20 and DM allowing that, but who says that he actually controlls it. I smell some fun for RP... and bane for powergamers :D
Since the animation rituals take about an hour I doubt that rolling would slow things down and it would make necromancy a bit more dangerous and exciting as well.
I like this idea.
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This idea absolutely SUCKS!
Ok not really. I like it. I just got tired of seeing all the positive agreement and had to throw something in to make it look more like a real thread here.
:)
What are you talking about?!? This idea is great! I fling personal attacks in your general direction without even reading your entire post to see that we are in agreement.
Well, certain form of dice rolling may make the things a bit more exciting.
(When I finally get an idea that I like you'll have to pry it from my cold dead fingers :D )
Here's my attempt at the necessary Errata:
Craft Undead [Item Creation]
Prerequisites:
Spell Focus(Necromancy) or the ability to channel negative energy
Benefit
A creature with this feat can create any undead whose prerequisites it meets. See individual undead monster entries for details.
A newly created undead has average hit points for its Hit Dice.
Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, DF/M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Short (25 ft + 5ft./level)
Targets: One or more corpses, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart. (see text)
Duration: 1 round/Level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell infuses the bones or bodies of dead bodies with negative energy, temporarily animating them as creatures that resemble Skeletons or Zombies.
The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed or the spell expires. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)
Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.)
Skeletons
A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies
A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
Material Component: A fistful of graveyard soil, or a fragment of a tombstone.
Create Undead and Create Greater Undead no longer exist.
Added to the Zombie MM entry:
Creation
A zombie requires an intact or nearly intact, fleshy corpse. A dismembered corpse can be stitched back together with a DC 15 Heal check, but all body parts must come from the same corpse. A black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the zombie to be created is used as a focus during the creation process. When the creation is completed, the gem shatters, leaving worthless shards.
Caster level equal to half the HD of the zombie; Craft Undead, Gentle Repose; Price 50 gp/HD;
Added to the Skeleton MM entry:
Creation
A skeleton requires an intact skeleton. The flesh may be left to rot naturally, or can be stripped from the bones with a DC 5 Heal or Profession(Butcher) check. A black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the Skeleton to be created is used as a focus during the creation process. When the creation is completed, the gem shatters, leaving worthless shards.
Caster level equal to half the HD of the skeleton; Craft Undead, Cause Fear; Price 50 gp/HD
Added to the Mummy MM entry:
Creation
Creation of a mummy requires an intact humanoid corpse. The body must be enbalmed or preserved. The traditional method is via organ removal, drying, and wrapping, but other preservation methods are possible. No matter the method, it requires oils, herbs, and other supplies costing 500 gp.
CL 6th; Craft Undead, Gentle Repose, Cause Fear, Bestow Curse; Price: 1,000 gp
We clearly need a chain of feats for this :>
"Craft Spell-Stitched Creature".
Should make for a nice late or capstone feat to the line.
-S
Ross, I think you had a copy and paste error - the feat should be Craft Undead I presume.Here's my attempt at the necessary Errata:
Craft Construct [Item Creation]
Prerequisites:
Spell Focus(Necromancy) or the ability to channel negative energy
I knew I had missed something. I just didn't expect it to be in the TITLE of the feat. Sigh.
Edit: You pointed it out inside of the edit deadline. It has been fixed.
Create Undead and Create Greater Undead no longer exist
I'd very much like to keep them, but set casting times at 1 round and apply a 1 round/level duration. It'd be cool for a necromancer to be able to raise the spectres of his dead enemies during combat!
Create Undead and Create Greater Undead no longer existI'd very much like to keep them, but set casting times at 1 round and apply a 1 round/level duration. It'd be cool for a necromancer to be able to raise the spectres of his dead enemies during combat!
At the very least, then, they should be renamed to 'Animate' or something similar, to convey their temporary nature. But yes, I'd be fine with them as ersatz Summon spells. It would would be best, then, to apply a HD cap to the Animate Dead spell that I wrote, above, since I let it scale infinitely, since there was no higher spell.
I am opposed to having actual 'Summon' spells for undead, though. You should need corpses!
Edit: One of the things I like about my new version of animate dead is that it is no longer range 'touch'. That means a Necromancer or evil Cleric can cast it in the middle of a graveyard, animating bodies in their shallow graves, and having the zombies claw their way free.
I am opposed to having actual 'Summon' spells for undead, though. You should need corpses!
Edit: One of the things I like about my new version of animate dead is that it is no longer range 'touch'. That means a Necromancer or evil Cleric can cast it in the middle of a graveyard, animating bodies in their shallow graves, and having the zombies claw their way free.
I agree; fighting a necromancer in a graveyard should be a lot scarier than fighting one where there's not a supply of bodies.
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One addition to a Craft Undead feat that I'd like to see would be the option to craft 'masterwork' or 'advanced' undead, or even a feat like Augment Summons that applies to created / summoned undead (although the feat would need to be adjusted a bit, to account for the sheer number of undead that are Incorporeal and would not benefit from a bonus to strength or a natural armor bonus).
Quick sample;
Augment Undead
Any undead you craft or animate receive a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, +2 Natural Armor and +2 hp / HD. Incorporeal undead receive instead a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, +2 deflection bonus to AC and +2 hp / die.
I agree; fighting a necromancer in a graveyard should be a lot scarier than fighting one where there's not a supply of bodies.
One of my favorite surprises for the players in a Hollowfaust campaign was when they fought the evil priest in her lair, and she sent her command rating in undead to slow them, which were being replaced as they fell, as she had created a potion (salve, actually) that she could smear on a corpse and leave resting. At any time after, she merely had to speak a command word and the prepared body would then Animate, allowing her to quickly replace fallen troops.
Had she not been in her lair, those prepared corpses would have done her no good, and since she was at her command limit, she couldn't afford to Animate them beforehand (since even if she animated them and kept them locked up until she needed them, she'd still have to spend actions to Rebuke her new recruits during combat and figure out a way to release them from wherever she had them locked up, without freeing any that weren't yet commanded...).
One addition to a Craft Undead feat that I'd like to see would be the option to craft 'masterwork' or 'advanced' undead, or even a feat like Augment Summons that applies to created / summoned undead (although the feat would need to be adjusted a bit, to account for the sheer number of undead that are Incorporeal and would not benefit from a bonus to strength or a natural armor bonus).
Quick sample;
Augment Undead
Any undead you craft or animate receive a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, +2 Natural Armor and +2 hp / HD. Incorporeal undead receive instead a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, +2 deflection bonus to AC and +2 hp / die.
Crafting Masterwork undead should be handled just like crafting Advanced Constructs. You pay a bit more for the extra HD.
I agree that there should be a feat for the 'Animate' spells to make them better. Perhaps just make Augment Summoning apply as well?
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I agree that there should be a feat for the 'Animate' spells to make them better. Perhaps just make Augment Summoning apply as well?
That would be simpler and 'more elegant,' but the prerequisite of Spell Focus (conjuration) would be a painful hit to a Necromancer who wants to also pick up Craft Undead. Plus, Augment Summoning doesn't do much for Shadows/Ghosts/Wraiths/Allips/Spectres/etc.
I think I'd rather have a dedicated feat for the Necro craftsmage than change Augment Summons around to better fit this dual purpose, and Augment Summons is already a very powerful feat (IMO) and probably doesn't need to be more versatile.
In addition to your temporary Animate Dead solution, it would be neat to have lower level spells that animate only a single undead for a brief time. Raising up a single skeleton or zombie for 1 round / level seems like a suitable 1st level spell.
Is there any way for a wizard (necromancer) to gain the Channel Negative Energy ability, short of multiclassing?
In addition to your temporary Animate Dead solution, it would be neat to have lower level spells that animate only a single undead for a brief time. Raising up a single skeleton or zombie for 1 round / level seems like a suitable 1st level spell.
Seems like it would be easy enough to have Animate Dead I - IX, exactly analagous to the summon monster spells, except they'd be Necromancy instead of Conjuration. And would require corpses (or at least souls - I could see someone crushing his trap the soul receptacle gem, releasing the trapped soul as an angry ghost...).
Good point, Set.
Ok. Here's a plan for the 'Animation' spells.
Introduce an 'Animation' subschool. (Like the 'Summoning' subschool)
Animate Dead -> Animate Dead (Emulates Zombies or Skeletons)
Create Undead -> Animate Dead, Greater (Emulates Ghouls, and other coporeal undead)
Create Greater Undead -> Compel Spirit (Emulates Incoporeal undead) (May need a better name)
(The Animate I-IX idea might also work, but I'm trying to break existing spell lists as little as possible. If less backward compatibility is needed, I prefer your idea, Kith, though animate dead currently allows things like animating masses of Zombies that direct summon analogs would not.)
Negative Energy Infusion[General]
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (Necromancy).
Benefit:
Each undead creature you create with any animation spell gains two bonus hit points per hit die and a +4 profane bonus to Strength. If that creature is incoporeal, it gains a +4 bonus to dexterity.
Is there any way for a wizard (necromancer) to gain the Channel Negative Energy ability, short of multiclassing?
No.
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mmm quite interesting
a combination of Animate undead Spells and the craft for more permanent ones... interesting indeed, i will need to work on it myself
i do not like the feats to be broken in lesser, normal and greater (even if normal is not included), have never like that rule about Magic Items, but aye would have to check what can be done about that...
Well, obviously I'm in the overwhelming minority, but I don't really like this idea. I thought the idea behind Craft: Construct was that you had to actually, you know, BUILD something. You need to stitch a flesh golem together, you need to sculpt the body of one that's made of metal or clay, etc. The animation would be part of the construction process. I can see a boy genius with a "How to Make a Golem" manual and all the ingredients being able to make a Shield Guardian.
Undead, on the other hand, should be the product of a magic spell, preferably a very evil one. Necromancy should be soul-blackening magic, not a purely mechanical process (which is how I see most of the Craft skills working). Little Jimmy the Boy Wonder needs to study the Dark Arts before he can raise a dead cricket.The difference is minor, and mainly one of flavor, but I just can't really see it any other way.
But I'm obviously in the overwhelming minority.
Another issue with Animate Dead I-IX is that clerics are supposed to be better at Undead stuff than necromancers, so it'd be necessary to stagger them, in the way that Cure spells work between clerics and druids.
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Good point, Set.
Negative Energy Infusion[General]
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (Necromancy).
Benefit:
Each undead creature you create with any animation spell gains two bonus hit points per hit die and a +4 profane bonus to Strength. If that creature is incoporeal, it gains a +4 bonus to dexterity.
I think the bonus hp either would stack with or step on the toes of the desecrate spell. Since they're from different sources, I'd say that, as written, they'd stack and give +3 hp/HD, which is a bit much.
Instead, how about making the bonus from the feat be +4 Str/+4 Dex, and a +2 bonus to natural armor/deflection?
Well, obviously I'm in the overwhelming minority, but I don't really like this idea. I thought the idea behind Craft: Construct was that you had to actually, you know, BUILD something. You need to stich a flesh golem together, you need to sculpt the body of one that's made of metal or clay, etc. The animation would be part of the construction process. I can see a boy genius with a "How to Make a Golem" manual and all the ingredients being able to make a Shield Guardian.
Undead, on the other hand, should be the product of a magic spell, preferably a very evil one. Necromancy should be soul-blackening magic, not a purely mechanical process (which is how I see most of the Craft skills working). Little Jimmy the Boy Wonder needs to study the Dark Arts before he can raise a dead cricket.The difference is minor, and mainly one of flavor, but I just can't really see it any other way.
But I'm obviously in the overwhelming minority.
Well, don't Mummies normally require an elaborate preparation? And it's not like a 'boy genius' could create a mummy, even with a 'Mummy Manual'. Just like the Golem manuals, you need a certain level of spellcasting proficiency to make use of it.
Ghouls and Zombies would have very low market values, so they can be created in less than a day. For more powerful undead like Morghs, doesn't it make sense that it might take time to create things like those unnatural tongues? Or that creating a Devourer from a humanoid corpse might take a big longer?
Magical item creation doesn't require you to actually make anything either. For instance, Craft Magical Arms and Armor allows you to buy Masterwork items from the local smith to enchant. The important part of Item Creation feats is the ritual magic required to make permanent magical changes. Compare a crafted +1 Sword with a masterwork sword that just has Magic Weapon cast on it. They're the same, until the duration runs out or someone with Dispel Magic shows up. Couldn't undead work the same way?
Edit: It just occured to me that the Prerequisite for Lichdom should be changed to Craft Undead instead of Craft Wondrous Item.
Good point, Set.
Negative Energy Infusion[General]
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (Necromancy).
Benefit:
Each undead creature you create with any animation spell gains two bonus hit points per hit die and a +4 profane bonus to Strength. If that creature is incoporeal, it gains a +4 bonus to dexterity.I think the bonus hp either would stack with or step on the toes of the desecrate spell. Since they're from different sources, I'd say that, as written, they'd stack and give +3 hp/HD, which is a bit much.
Instead, how about making the bonus from the feat be +4 Str/+4 Dex, and a +2 bonus to natural armor/deflection?
Could work. We really need Jason in here.
The Animate I-IX idea might also work, but I'm trying to break existing spell lists as little as possible. If less backward compatibility is needed, I prefer your idea, Kith, though animate dead currently allows things like animating masses of Zombies that direct summon analogs would not.
Well, if you cast summon monster IX and pick 7th level monsters, you get 2-5 of them. Don't see why we couldn't scale it similarly, and give you like 8-20 zombies (or more) for a higher-level spell.
Is there any way for a wizard (necromancer) to gain the Channel Negative Energy ability, short of multiclassing? No.
That blows. Makes it hard for necromancers to meet the Create Undead prerequisites.
Another issue with Animate Dead I-IX is that clerics are supposed to be better at Undead stuff than necromancers, so it'd be necessary to stagger them, in the way that Cure spells work between clerics and druids.
I disagree that general all-purpose evil clerics should be better at it than people who specialize in necromancy.
That blows. Makes it hard for necromancers to meet the Create Undead prerequisites.
That's why it's 'Or'. I just wanted Evil Clerics to be able to take it without needing to take Spell Focus.
I disagree that general all-purpose evil clerics should be better at it than people who specialize in necromancy
I agree. However, it's a longstanding issue with D&D and its why, for instance, Animate Dead is a higher level spell for a Wizard than a Cleric. I'm willing to go with the legacy of the game on this one. (If we change that, then I'd also like to examine why Druids don't get Cure Moderate as a 2nd level spell.)
VARIANT CLASS FEATURE: DARK CHANNELER
Prerequisite: Wizard specializing in necromancy
Replaces: You lose all Necromancy specialist school abilities.
Benfit: You gain the ability to channel negative energy as an evil cleric of your class level.
I agree. However, it's a longstanding issue with D&D and its why, for instance, Animate Dead is a higher level spell for a Wizard than a Cleric. I'm willing to go with the legacy of the game on this one. (If we change that, then I'd also like to examine why Druids don't get Cure Moderate as a 2nd level spell.)
We're OK with totally eliminating save-or-die effects, but are afraid to revamp some of the spell levels? Even if Paizo won't go that route, I'm not afraid to houserule it! In fact, if they ignore this thread, maybe Nick Logue will let us compile all this together as a Sinister Indulgence. I'd even let him keep my share of the profits.
Even if Paizo won't go that route, I'm not afraid to houserule it! In fact, if they ignore this thread, maybe Nick Logue will let us compile all this together as a Sinister Indulgence. I'd even let him keep my share of the profits.
Or we could send it to KQ. Trouble with that is we wouldn't have the space to add a 'Creation' entry for every creatable undead in the MM.
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Even if Paizo won't go that route, I'm not afraid to houserule it! In fact, if they ignore this thread, maybe Nick Logue will let us compile all this together as a Sinister Indulgence. I'd even let him keep my share of the profits.Or we could send it to KQ. Trouble with that is we wouldn't have the space to add a 'Creation' entry for every creatable undead in the MM.
You wouldn't need to. Include skeleton, zombies and mummies like you have, and then one incorporeal, say spectres. If the article is popular enough that KQ readers want the rest filled in, that's simply a follow up article for you.