Just as a casual observation, anyone who considers the presence of Vancian magic a dealbreaker is probably lost to us, and I'm ok with that.
Why do you hate America?
North America or South America?...
The one that matters.
North America or South America?...The one that matters.
Ah ... South America
*whispers behind his hand* that's where all the former nazis live.
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To the issue of hypocrisy if there are two choices for something and one choice indirectly supports your political/moral/religious/national interest and one does not, then choosing the one that does is fine. If there are not two choices but only one choice and that choice does not support your other interests then choosing that one is fine as well.
So given a choice between going with the pathfinder system and 4e, choosing 4e partially based on it being printed in the US is fine and is not hypocritical merely because WotC also has things made in China. Especially if (1) the person is not interested in those other things (i.e. he is supporting those things he has an interest in) or (2) there is no real other option for those other products (how many US companies are making plastic miniatures for RPGs?).
Yea, I think your way of base with this one. It has more to do with the fact that this person is ignorant of certain facts. And if you are going to throw something in a company's or for that matter anyone elses face, you should have a good understanding of the facts.
I'm sure the OP didn't otherwise they wouldn't have brought it up.
If he took the time to look at all those plastic figs that WOTC sells he would know that they too are made in China.
A person cannot simply claim the moral high ground, and not have other just accept what he says.
What he said was hypocritical.
What he said was hypocritical.
You certainly have a right to that opinion. Now if he had said, "I am going to 4e because their books are made in the US, besides I love their miniatures." That might come across as hypocritical.
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"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." -Oscar WildeOh, a quote. Therefore it must be true. It is not like any famous person was ever wrong or talking out of their arse.
Dude, you need to lay off on the personal attacks. Take a step back and look at what your doing here.
He's quoting Oscar Wilde. A man so steeped in irony that his picture should be next to it in the dictionary.
Maybe your having a bad day or something but please ease back.
Dude, you need to lay off on the personal attacks.
Oh my god, is Zombieneighbours really Oscar Wilde? I am so sorry Mr. Wilde.
Chill dude. It is called sarcasm, lighten up.
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What he said was hypocritical.You certainly have a right to that opinion. Now if he had said, "I am going to 4e because their books are made in the US, besides I love their miniatures." That might come across as hypocritical.
I love when people roll back with that line. "Well that's your opinion..." or "You have a right to that opinion"
I wish I could tell what they say afterwards because I got to tell you I loose all interest after that.
You see I really don't need anyone to tell me that I spoke my opinion out loud/wrote my opinion down. I have all the mental skills to track all that.
Why anyone would want to help someone understand that is beyond me. It's insulting and well not really worth my time.
Pres man.
Have a good day Dude. I'll keep thinking positive things for ya.
North America or South America?...The one that matters.Ah ... South America
Are you kidding me with this? Only English speaking countries matter and they only speak Mexican down there.
Wait?..Did Someone mention Nazis?..
Damn..just when this thread was getting good... ;-)
Only if there is a comparison my friend. Merely mentioning is not enough, so don't worry.
Have a good day Dude. I'll keep thinking positive things for ya.
I'll do the same for you buddy. I hope you don't stay upset by a mere turn of the phrase. Have a good one.
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. Is English not your first language? man I take it all back.
Don't worry pal, I know you're just talking through the frustration. Just let it out, its cool.
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(i.e. he is supporting those things he has an interest in) or (2) there is no real other option for those other products (how many US companies are making plastic miniatures for RPGs?).
Rackham makes his figurines in France. Do you sincerely believe that Hasbro can't produce this minis in US?
If you buy some kind of product you are supporting the whole company. I can't imagine a bunch of chinese people printing Paizo books, but to produce painted miniatures you need to employ a lot of people. So, it's very hard to see how can anyone accuse Paizo of investing in chinese industry and then buying Hasbro products.
You see I really don't need anyone to tell me that I spoke my opinion out loud/wrote my opinion down. I have all the mental skills to track all that.
That is just your opinion.
Rackham makes his figurines in France. Do you sincerely believe that Hasbro can't produce this minis in US?
No doubt they could. Just as Paizo could print their materials in the US. But it wouldn't be good for either of their bottom lines.
If you buy some kind of product you are supporting the whole company. I can't imagine a bunch of chinese people printing Paizo books, but to produce painted miniatures you need to employ a lot of people. So, it's very hard to see how can anyone accuse Paizo of investing in chinese industry and then buying Hasbro products.
Look, first I'm not defending this person's opinion. Heck if they don't want to by a gaming product because they don't like the color of paper its printed on that is just as valid a subjective reason as this is. That's the point, its subjective. They think this issue, where a specific product that they are purchasing was made, is some how subjectively important. Good for them. Frankly I could careless where it is printed.
Second, so what if the company still has dealings with this other country. He is not "protesting" a company, he is "protesting" a product. Why, I don't know. But personally I think if there are two equally valid choices and a person uses a totally subjective reason to decide between them, so what? "He's a hypocrit!" Maybe, maybe not. As pointed out by many others, it is impossible in today's world to only live by the goods exclusively from your own country in most civilized countries.
Sure you could live in the woods and use tree bark for toilet paper until the government comes after you for not paying taxes. But for most people, they instead have to limit themselves to smaller decisions. Walk instead of driving so you don't give more money then you have to the middle east. Cook at home some you don't give more money to the McCorps. And maybe just purchase a book that was made in the US so you don't have to give the Chinese more money then you have to.
A few comments:
1. To the original poster: Even if the books are being printed overseas, it still helps American families at the ports, the airports, the shipping companies, and so forth. They count and they need to feed their families too.
2. Someone mentioned Kung Pao chicken with their book .. that's not a bad idea. A free order of chinese food with your book could really be a selling point, esp. if you are ordering hungry!
Director of Narrative
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2. Someone mentioned Kung Pao chicken with their book .. that's not a bad idea. A free order of chinese food with your book could really be a selling point, esp. if you are ordering hungry!
But not ordering from Hungary. With the shipping times, the Kung Pao might be a little foul.
1. To the original poster: Even if the books are being printed overseas, it still helps American families at the ports, the airports, the shipping companies, and so forth. They count and they need to feed their families too.
Good point, but it could be made a little better. If it was made in the US, it would still be sent out from the US so those people would still get a benefit from it. But they benefit more from having it made in China. Because it gets shipped from China to Paizo's location (workers at ports, airports, shipping, etc get job 1st time) and then Paizo ships it back out to other locations (workers at ports, airports, shipping, etc get job 2nd time). So by doing it this way it benefits US shipping workers twice, not just once (if it was made in the US). ;)
Just as a side note:
Did you ever notice that if a package is carried in a car, it is called a shipment, but if it is carried in a ship it is called cargo.
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6. And this is the real kicker that finally pushed me over the edge -- 4th edition, it turns out, is being printed in the U.S., while Pathfinder is being printed in China. If given a choice, I will support a company which supports American families rather than the People's Liberation Army slave-labor sweatshop factories.
Call me cynical, but if you think patriotism has anything to do with Wizards printing in the US you're off your rocker. We're talking about the biggest RPG company bar none: if they can afford to print in the US while retaining profit margins that satisfy Hasbro, it's because they can demand conditions smaller companies can't even dream of. Wizards prints in the US because it's the best deal they can get.
And on the Chinese side of the coin, please note that the (quality) printing business requires both a serious investment in equipment and, more to the point, skilled employees. My family's in the business, I can assure you that paying the kind of wages necessary to get and keep skilled employees is an investment that always pays off.
Most Fords, Dodges, and Chevys are built outside of the United States while most Toyotas, Hondas, and Suburus are built in the United States. Yet most people refuse to buy a "foreign" car because it "takes money away from American workers." By the same token, my friends in the industry have informed me that the "American" publisher that WoTC is using has it's plants predominately in India and Mexico. With the exception of the OP I can find no sources for the "Pathfinder is printed in China" charge.
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Perhaps being printed in America is what causes all those problems with the ink and paper in fourth edition. Here in China, we have no problems with printing, having, after all, invented ink, paper, binding, and associated technologies a thousand or so years before the first caucasian Americans were distributing smallpox and syphillis to the new world, and spelling "creature" as "critter".
Just a thought.
But at least they gave us NASCAR. Supporter of Michael Waltrip Racing since 2007.
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With the exception of the OP I can find no sources for the "Pathfinder is printed in China" charge.
It has been well known on these boards, since the beginning, that Pathfinder is printed China. It's been mentioned a lot, in a lot of posts by a lot of people, including Paizo employees. Around here, it is just common knowledge.
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With the exception of the OP I can find no sources for the "Pathfinder is printed in China" charge.It has been well known on these boards, since the beginning, that Pathfinder is printed China. It's been mentioned a lot, in a lot of posts by a lot of people, including Paizo employees. Around here, it is just common knowledge.
I've only been on the boards for about a month or so. I guess I just haven't stumbled on to it. Curse you Google, you have failed me again.
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Gosh Dernit, my 40K miniatures are manufactured in the US of A. In Maryland, which is real close-like to the Capitol so it's extra patriotic (even though it's a British company). See that's how you know yer patriotic--that and you have to have an American flag on your foreign oil gas-guzzling Hummer (and front porch).
Sorry, but I get annoyed. Most vocal flag-wavers wouldn't know patriotism if it kicked them in the face. There's a line between blind nationalism and patriotism.
If you buy some kind of product you are supporting the whole company.
I don't feel that way.
For example, I've stoped ordering meat from fast food places because they deal with massive meat-factories that I feel treat their animals inhumanely. But that doesn't stop me from ordering a fry every now and then.
They never hurt the potato.
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If you buy some kind of product you are supporting the whole company.I don't feel that way.
For example, I've stoped ordering meat from fast food places because they deal with massive meat-factories that I feel treat their animals inhumanely. But that doesn't stop me from ordering a fry every now and then.
They never hurt the potato.
Man I'd hate to be your friend, Don't mind me, I'm just going to rip your feet off, chop them up and throw them into hot oil, it won't hurt a bit.
Silly LK, potatoes have eyes, not feet! (Dammit, I just said potaTOES, maybe they do have feet after all...)
Silly LK, potatoes have eyes, not feet! (Dammit, I just said potaTOES, maybe they do have feet after all...)
Well, that subject should carry us into page 6 or 7.
If you buy some kind of product you are supporting the whole company.I don't feel that way.
For example, I've stoped ordering meat from fast food places because they deal with massive meat-factories that I feel treat their animals inhumanely. But that doesn't stop me from ordering a fry every now and then.
They never hurt the potato.
French Fries are potato murder! That's why you put ketchup on them... it's like fake blood on furs.
I never understood throwing paint or fake blood on furs. For one, if the coat is ruined it means those animals now died in vain. For another, it now means that MORE furry critters have to die to replace the fur coats that were just ruined.
It seems like a counter-productive form of protest. Kinda like setting fire to an oil-well to protest global warming and the energy crisis.
You say goodbye, and I say hello... Hello Hello... Don't know why you say goodbye, when I say hello (Pathfinder), hello, hello, helllllooooo (Pathfinder)
Arrgh, now I've The Beatles stuck in my head! THEY'RE LAYING EGGS!!!!!
Arrgh, now I've The Beatles stuck in my head! THEY'RE LAYING EGGS!!!!!
Okay, that got me. I'll remember that one.
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Chief Technical Officer
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By the same token, my friends in the industry have informed me that the "American" publisher that WoTC is using has it's plants predominately in India and Mexico. With the exception of the OP I can find no sources for the "Pathfinder is printed in China" charge.
Federal law requires accurate identification of the country of origin on most types of goods manufactured outside of the US. So if you see "Printed in the USA" on a Wizards product, they actually mean it's printed in the USA; if they lied about that, they'd be fined back into the stone age.
And, indeed, you'll find "Printed in China" on pretty much every product we're making these days. I think the only thing we haven't done in China this year is our T-shirt printing. (And I haven't checked the tags to see where the T-shirts are actually *manufactured*...)
Are you kidding me with this? Only English speaking countries matter and they only speak Mexican down there.North America or South America?...The one that matters.Ah ... South America
Caramba, eu adoro esse tipo de sarcasmo. É legal a idéia de que para a pessoa dos Estados Unidos o Brasil é somente "carnaval", "bunda" e "amazonia". <- This was Portuguese, oops, I mean, "Spanish" ¬¬
By the way, 4th edition still seems...well...strange for me. I don't like the cosmology, and that I could change, and I don't like how the monsters are handed, and that I could change, damn, I don't even like the feel of hack and slash, but that I could change.
But the classes seem strange, coming from a mmorpg, and that I can't change (c'mon, if it was to be like this, why didn't they write that the Tankers, oops, sorry, Defenders, pull the Aggro to them?).
Nice, tieflings! Where the Heaven are the Aasimar? -I can't stand the loss of some classes...
So, goobye guy, be happy, maybe, just maybe, whe it fit my tastes, I'll be dming 4th edition...
Maybe.
...
As far as flag waving goes, where I come from it is called patriotism.
And if we could only get rid of the left-wing, liberal, enviro-weenies, perhaps America would drill for it's own oil. But thank the democrats for hamstringing any attempts at energy independence.
If you think the economy is bad now, wait until a Democrat becomes President... that frightens me... really...Sorry for the political discourse. All of the above is my opinion only. Feel free to disagree...
If you consider the fact that States are paying for oil and saving their own reserves for worse times when they may not be able to import it a bad politic...
Completely out of topic, but sometimes I can't resist the urge.
the Kung Pao might be a little foul.
LOL. Nice unintended joke there. Kung Pao chicken being alittle foul. Very well played lol.
the Kung Pao might be a little foul.LOL. Nice unintended joke there. Kung Pao chicken being alittle foul. Very well played lol.
I don't think I-
Wait, no...
Oh, that's bad.
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No. Of course not. Everyone knows that. When the aliens came to earth to put humans there, they first eradicated the dinos.Wait, dinosaurs and humans never coexisted?
Great Scott! I never knew that! Another great mystery solved over the Paizo boards.
Now if someone could just tell me how to raise my velociraptor, I think that would about do it for me. It's two weeks old now, scratches the hell out of me...but has this wonderful twinkle in his eye when I eat my dinner....
Cheers,
Zux
Gosh Dernit, my 40K miniatures are manufactured in the US of A. In Maryland, which is real close-like to the Capitol so it's extra patriotic (even though it's a British company).
Those treacherous bastards. How could they sell out the old world to those burger-eating, coke-guzzling bastards!!! ;-P
the Kung Pao might be a little foul.LOL. Nice unintended joke there. Kung Pao chicken being alittle foul. Very well played lol.
The chicken turning into a little foul? DELIVERY FASTER THAN LIGHT! ORDER TODAY, RECEIVE YESTERDAY! (Caution: if you receive a shipment you were going to order, please go ahead and make sure that you do order it later, or else you will be held liable for any damage in the space-time-continuum you cause!)
*whispers behind his hand* that's where all the former nazis live.
The sissies. The real Nazis still live on the north pole, in vast Stützpunkts under miles of ice, building thir U.F.Os (Reichsflugscheibes) to abduct people from all over the world to use their probes on them and turn them into proper Aarians.
(There's actually conspiracy theories about Nazis with bases in the north pole using UFOs.)
Just as a casual observation, anyone who considers the presence of Vancian magic a dealbreaker is probably lost to us, and I'm ok with that.Why do you hate America?
Ronald McDonald killed my father.
This makes me glad that I don't buy them. Also, weren't they randomized or something?
Yes. And of increasingly crappy quality - at least from just after the Underdark Set to when I stopped buying them. (Seriously, Underdarks commons looked better than some later rares, like Strahd)
I've bought maybe one mini in my life. Everything else is cardboard chits, those glass stones, pennies, etc.
I bought literally thousands. I used to be heavily into DDM (before wizards told me they didn't want my money any more), and still buy Reaper's Legendary Encounters (prepainted plastic miniatures that aren't randomised) and metal minis (especially Paizo minis now). And just today I bought another pot of paint, two brushes, and two spray primers. Painting minis is great fun. (Though I wouldn't want to paint everything).
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." -Oscar WildeOh, a quote. Therefore it must be true. It is not like any famous person was ever wrong or talking out of their arse.
many have said a great many false things, but with this one, wilde hit the nail on the head. I quote him, because he said what i wanted to express with great eligance. It is the reason we use quotes.
pres man: The ad hominem attacks really don't help your case.
“If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?” - General George S. Patton
“Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy” - George Bernard Shaw
“Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.” - Samuel Johnson
“You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.” - George Bernard Shaw
“Patriots always talk of dying for their country, and never of killing for their country.” - Bertrand Russell
“Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.” - Bertrand Russell
“Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -how passionately I hate them!” -Albert Einstein
“If patriotism is "the last refuge of a scoundrel," it is not merely because evil deeds may be performed in the name of patriotism, but because patriotic fervor can obliterate moral distinctions altogether”
- Ralph B. Perry
Boy, I'm glad that I served in the USMC and served my country so folks could trash it through "Freedom of Speech". :)
On another note about buying American.... I just bought my "American" car. A 2008 Dodge Charger. ....."German trasnmission, Mexican parts, assembled in Canada." Glad I bought American....
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"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." -Oscar WildeOh, a quote. Therefore it must be true. It is not like any famous person was ever wrong or talking out of their arse.many have said a great many false things, but with this one, wilde hit the nail on the head. I quote him, because he said what i wanted to express with great elegance. It is the reason we use quotes.
pres man: The ad homonym attacks really don't help your case.
“If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?” - General George S. Patton
“Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy” - George Bernard Shaw
“Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.” - Samuel Johnson
“You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.” - George Bernard Shaw
“Patriots always talk of dying for their country, and never of killing for their country.” - Bertrand Russell
“Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.” - Bertrand Russell
“Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -how passionately I hate them!” -Albert Einstein
“If patriotism is "the last refuge of a scoundrel," it is not merely because evil deeds may be performed in the name of patriotism, but because patriotic fervor can obliterate moral distinctions altogether”
- Ralph B. Perry
Might as well let it go ZN.
Pres Man can't be bothered with quotes from famous academics, logic or the correct understanding of hypocrisy. You see he's entitled to his opinion right or wrong.
