we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time.
- Ashavan
Actually, we did have an edition war between 1st and 2nd. I remember it vividly. We just didn't have the internet then, so all of the wars were local. They were there, though.
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You recall incorrectly. The druid was still around in 2e. The Monk and Assassin (with the ridiculous % to kill anyone ability) were removed at the start of 2e (along with the poor half-orc. What is it with even numbered editions hating on the monk and haf-orc?)
Role playing will be a part of 4e if the DM wants it to be. Whether WotC will release adventures that make that clear has yet to be seen, but I see as much role play potential in 4e as there was in 2e. Which was also, as I recall, missing both the monk and the druid at start.I had actually gone to double check after posting, knowing if I was wrong someone would point it out and was editing my post to reflect that as you entered yours.
But note, you're proving my point... there was stuff missing then too - monk, assassin, half-orc - but we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time. There was also stuff drastically changed, notably the druid and illusionist.
- Ashavan
I wasn't trying to disprove your point, just correct the mistake about the druid. You are correct that edition wars are stupid but (and I know I'm going to sound like a whiny 6 year old) *pointing at WotC and their promo video* they started it!.
Actually, we did have an edition war between 1st and 2nd. I remember it vividly. We just didn't have the internet then, so all of the wars were local. They were there, though.we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time.
- Ashavan
There were certainly people unhappy over the change to 2e... but not to nearly the same degree. There were plenty of discussions about this on local computer bulletin board systems at the time, plenty of them nationally carried groups like WWIV and FidoNet. They didn't come near to this crazy war over editions though, at least not in my area (or on the BBS groups I read at the time).
- Ashavan
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6. And this is the real kicker that finally pushed me over the edge -- 4th edition, it turns out, is being printed in the U.S., while Pathfinder is being printed in China. If given a choice, I will support a company which supports American families rather than the People's Liberation Army slave-labor sweatshop factories.
Honestly, this "anti-China" mentality just seems old world.
The Chinese are keeping our economy from sinking totally in the toilet, as they are the ones who are buying and keeping our American dollar afloat.
Besides, trying to get the biggest bang for your buck is the American capitalist system at its best, isn't it?
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Well, I wavered back and forth for a while, and there are still things that I'm going to heavily houserule for 4th (specifically, non-combat skills -- I want more of them, not less). But some things have finally gotten to me and I'm off.
1. Upper levels still look hellish in Pathfinder. Since I usually DM, the idea of suffering through all those modifiers and cross-references for a monster that's going to die anyway is just too much.
2. The mess of iterative attacks is still there. Ugh.
3. Spellcasters are still going to reduce the melee classes to sidekicks. And worse, the fighter is still as boring to play as a brick. "I miss, I hit, I miss, I hit." Yech.
4. Vancian casting is still haunting the scene. Enough said on that point.
5. Exception-based design is a lot better than the 'rules depict everything' design, IMO. I like the idea that there might be non-human magical traditions which can cast spells that humans can't -- and that can't cast spells which humans can -- for example. And it's damn fast to whip up an opponent, too.
6. And this is the real kicker that finally pushed me over the edge -- 4th edition, it turns out, is being printed in the U.S., while Pathfinder is being printed in China. If given a choice, I will support a company which supports American families rather than the People's Liberation Army slave-labor sweatshop factories.
Have fun with Pathfinder.
What in the world were you EXPECTING? The game had to be backwards-compatible. That means that iterative attacks, vancian spellcasting, etc. have to stay in. It almost sounds as if you were either never on board with this in the first place and/or are a WotC plant trying to discredit the PRPG, here. Your post count of EIGHT seems to support this. If 4e is your cup of tea, go drink deeply. We'll still be here when you get tired of the same old thing every time you sit down, no matter what class your character sheet says you're playing.
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Sorry for the political discourse. All of the above is my opinion only. Feel free to disagree...
780 MILLION ACRES of untapped land ready for oil drilling. Why not tap that?
Patriotism is over the top when you think that the Oil Companies and BILLIONS in profits is okay are right then you certainly have drunk the neo-con GW Bush kool-aid. Enjoy.
Oh and as for us left-wing liberals. Damn straight. I would much rather breath the clean air.Sorry off-topic.
Why not? Because there are laws on the books championed by the Demos that prevent it.
Back on topic: to the OP. I have not heard any proof that 4e will be any better at high levels. Combat takes just as long or longer for the same reasons that 3.x does...some players have a hard time figuring out what to do.
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I confess, I still get confused at the assumption that 4e must be hack and slash. Both 1e and 2e also focused on combat rules and allowed the DM to do free form roll-playing (IF THEY WANTED TO). It's not D&D because it's all hack and slash, that's what I hear. But Goodman Games and Necromancer both had popular lines based on "Classic" D&D... and what were they? dungeon crawls with heavy combat focus. That IS classic D&D, so in many ways 4e returns to D&D's roots. Yes, they change a lot of the mechanics, but they also allow a DM to "wing it" like we used to be able to. Yes, they even out the classes... but that evening out makes the sort of "teamwork" you reference almost a requirement.
I'm sorry for not being able to express what I wanted by saying that 4e is hack'n slash.
What I meant is that the rules progressed in a way to give support to Role Play, there is a number of skills for that, some feats, just to increase the backstory of the PC. THen comes 4e and goes back to 1st and 2ed on this point.
I've played a lot of 2ed (not much of the 1st) and had lots of fun with it, also, I RPed as much as I was able to, and improved it as much as I could, the RP was all I wanted at the time, but, by changing the system and putting all the focus on combat they are going a step back (IMHO).
Also, as stated on the previous post, I will play 4e someday, dont know yet if Ill like it, but so far, for what I've read, it just doesnt feels like D&D, maybe Mazes and Monsters, but not D&D.
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Back on topic: to the OP. I have not heard any proof that 4e will be any better at high levels. Combat takes just as long or longer for the same reasons that 3.x does...some players have a hard time figuring out what to do.
I'm not a 4e supporter, but 4e does present fewer options. Therefore, it's easier to decide what to do.
Personally, I view the pulp fantasy roots of the game as a feature and not a flaw,
One of the main reasons I believe PRPG is in good hands.
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6. And this is the real kicker that finally pushed me over the edge -- 4th edition, it turns out, is being printed in the U.S., while Pathfinder is being printed in China. If given a choice, I will support a company which supports American families rather than the People's Liberation Army slave-labor sweatshop factories.
By this token you should not support WOTC or anything Hasbro : need I remind you that over 80% of toys worldwide are crafted in the far east ? Hasbro being one of the major players ?
Let's talk about the D&D mini line for instance, will you ?
Anyhow, I am afraid that in today's world, your options for having a 100 % patriotic hobby (whatever it is) are fairly limited.
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1. Upper levels still look hellish in Pathfinder...
2. The mess of iterative attacks is still there.
3. Spellcasters are still going to reduce the melee classes to sidekicks...
4. Vancian casting is still haunting the scene.
5. Exception-based design is a lot better than the 'rules depict everything' design ...
I actually agree with the original poster in his first five points. I whole-heartedly agree that higher level play in D&D 3.x is a tangled, snarled mess. I think that problem is frustrated by iterative attacks, for sure. But, spellcasters dominate the game in 3.x and their seemingly endless options are the real drag on managing and resolving 3.x combats. I've always despised the Vancian magic system and have been using spell points as presented in Unearthed Arcana for about five years.
Wizards of the Coast has done a great job in smoothing out these issues with 4th Edition. I was reluctant to try it, but I am glad I did. Unlike the original poster, though, I'll still buy the next two versions of Pathfinder RPG (this August's and the 2009 final version) out of loyalty to Paizo, even if I never take the time to see how it plays. I love Paizo's work, and they have earned my business as a collector of great products, even if I don't actually use their stuff in-game. Plus, I'd like to get all of the parts of Second Darkness, at least.
Just as a casual observation, anyone who considers the presence of Vancian magic a dealbreaker is probably lost to us, and I'm ok with that.
Personally, I view the pulp fantasy roots of the game as a feature and not a flaw, and I'm glad that there is an edition of the game for people who don't, because that is not a version of the game I am very interested in publishing.
Yes! It is the demolishing of the Vancian magic system in 4E that is one of the big reasons why I'm not happy with 4E. It feels like 4E is turning its back on its roots. I'm glad that Pathfinder is sticking with it.
Actually, we did have an edition war between 1st and 2nd. I remember it vividly. We just didn't have the internet then, so all of the wars were local. They were there, though.we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time.
- Ashavan
My memories of the time were more like "Second edition? Huh? Why?" and never bothered with it for a long time (just kept on playing first edition). Eventually I started running a hybrid game because the two systems were so similar. We finally did switch completely to 2nd around '94.
So, in our group there really wasn't a war. It was more a case of "Meh" at first. Once we did finally switch, we bought lots of books and settings right up to the end of TSR (and spend quite a bit buying the back catalogue of 2E material that we missed out on).
Just as a casual observation, anyone who considers the presence of Vancian magic a dealbreaker is probably lost to us, and I'm ok with that.
Dealbreaker, no. But I don't like it, and I houserule it in my game.
I intend to play BOTH 4e and Pathfinder. The former seems like bubblegum RP, will be fun for pickup games and new characters. The latter seems like a great home for my beloved characters and stories that are cast aside.
The Vancian issue is divisive, sure. But Pathfinder has a lot more to offer than refuge for the Vancians alone, as the publisher I should hope you would be open to the rest of us.
As for parting shot type posts— it might be a little petty, but at least he names his reasons. That's helpful in some way, I suppose.
6. And this is the real kicker that finally pushed me over the edge -- 4th edition, it turns out, is being printed in the U.S., while Pathfinder is being printed in China. If given a choice, I will support a company which supports American families rather than the People's Liberation Army slave-labor sweatshop factories.
Call me cynical, but if you think patriotism has anything to do with Wizards printing in the US you're off your rocker. We're talking about the biggest RPG company bar none: if they can afford to print in the US while retaining profit margins that satisfy Hasbro, it's because they can demand conditions smaller companies can't even dream of. Wizards prints in the US because it's the best deal they can get.
And on the Chinese side of the coin, please note that the (quality) printing business requires both a serious investment in equipment and, more to the point, skilled employees. My family's in the business, I can assure you that paying the kind of wages necessary to get and keep skilled employees is an investment that always pays off.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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6. And this is the real kicker that finally pushed me over the edge -- 4th edition, it turns out, is being printed in the U.S., while Pathfinder is being printed in China. If given a choice, I will support a company which supports American families rather than the People's Liberation Army slave-labor sweatshop factories.
I hope you are consistent, and don't buy Wizard's D&D minis. Made in China.
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Depends on whether you like red bean mash or not. Suncake is delicious. There are some excellent fruit cakes. Cake is sometimes not sweet. Rice cake can be great. The moon cakes are awesome. Some of the cake is very overwhelmingly distressingly creamy. The decoration can take four of five hours for some cakes. There is a large difference between the Japanese style commercial cakes, which are ornamental, sickly, cream and decoration gooey weirdness, and the traditional cakes, which are more like slightly dry pastries. Nuts and beans feature prominently, in traditional chinese baking. Baking itself is not as prominent as steaming.
Notables:
Pineapple cake: square, used for weddings. Glazed
Almond cake: Almond flour, soft.
Moon cake: Slightly oily. Regional styles. Green bean or condensed egg yolk, or red bean. Cantonese style is bigger, and square. Usually pressed with a relief design.
Shark fin cake: Go figure.
I LOVE Pineapple cake. That is really good stuff.
Never tried Almond cake. I love almonds though. Any chance you have a recipe sitting around you would be willing to share?
...If you ever find you need proof that people can be stupid, just visit a forum, any forum...
This troll doesn't even rise to the level of true trolling. His facts are nothing more than 3E vs 4E talking points, his logic is skewed, and he evidently is a true red blooded racist.
I would LOVE to visit his home, on the condition thast I could bludgeon him with anything that was made in a country that "we" don't like.
a fool, plain and simple. One that was never onboard to begin with, and will not be missed as he waves his finger at us in the distance...but a fool nonetheless.
CEO
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Actually, we did have an edition war between 1st and 2nd. I remember it vividly. We just didn't have the internet then, so all of the wars were local. They were there, though.we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time.
- Ashavan
Yep, I even stopped playing D&D when 2nd edition came out because I didn't like what they did to my game. Of course, that meant that I started a game company instead, went on to help create Ars Magica and Vampire: The Masquerade, before returning to D&D with 3e. So in some ways, 2e was a very good change for me. :)
-Lisa
But note, you're proving my point... there was stuff missing then too - monk, assassin, half-orc - but we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time. There was also stuff drastically changed, notably the druid and illusionist.
- Ashavan
Yes, there was a lot of conflict between devotees of those editions (and the original D&D vs. 1st Edition AD&D). There have always been these types of issues as D&D moved to another edition. I'm sure most people here remember the arguments between 2nd edition AD&D and 3E fans. It is greater now because WotC have made far more changes, and fundamental changes at that, to the basic assumptions of the game. That ramped up the conflict. In this case of course the partisans of the older edition, including me, have a game to hang onto courtesy of the OGL. I suspect this iteration of the "edition wars" will be with us longer as a result. Which, as long as I have my 3.x support is fine with me.
*edit* Oh, viva la differance btw. I figure each side can have their cake and eat it too. Cake... all this mention of cake in this thread. I'm a diabetic (type 2), damn you! Arghh.
Spelling issues. *sigh*
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Well, to be fair, one cannot be blamed for what the gov't does...
If one does not want to buy foreign products, that is ones choice... and it is taking money away from the foreign company no matter how you look at it.As far as flag waving goes, where I come from it is called patriotism.
And if we could only get rid of the left-wing, liberal, enviro-weenies, perhaps America would drill for it's own oil. But thank the democrats for hamstringing any attempts at energy independence.
If you think the economy is bad now, wait until a Democrat becomes President... that frightens me... really...Sorry for the political discourse. All of the above is my opinion only. Feel free to disagree...
Left winger here. I disagree with you. Completely. And just for the record, I CAN'T wait till a Democrat becomes President. Maybe we can put our white hats back on and stop being pre-emptive badguys. Maybe even be proud to be called Americans again. Besides, domestic drilling isn't the answer; let's find alternative energy sources and get the monkey off our backs permanently. And not that it needs to be said, but all of the above is in my opinion only; since they haven't found a way to completely stop that yet.
Having said that; let's keep politics out of gaming boards if at all possible. It ticks off Sebastian and it distracts from the important stuff: like championing Pathfinder and dissing 4th Edition.
But note, you're proving my point... there was stuff missing then too - monk, assassin, half-orc - but we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time. There was also stuff drastically changed, notably the druid and illusionist.
Well, also in the interest of fairness, you could run a 1st edition class in a 2nd edition game fairly easily, and it even mentioned allowing your players with 1st edition classes to "grandfather" them into 2nd edition.
There was also a "build your own class" section of the 2nd edition DMG.
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Just a sidenote to the underinformed OP ... I think in this day and age just being American supports China considering we have borrowed anywhere from 600 billion to 1 trillion bucks from China in the last 8 years ... approxiamtely 28% of our national income.
So if you're gonna be jingoist, be fully informed jingoist.
Oh, and keep waving that flag as you fund the oil cartels in not America drivin some overcompensation mobile.
.... I'm sorry. That was a bit out of line. My apologies.
Well, to be fair, one cannot be blamed for what the gov't does...
If one does not want to buy foreign products, that is ones choice... and it is taking money away from the foreign company no matter how you look at it.As far as flag waving goes, where I come from it is called patriotism.
And if we could only get rid of the left-wing, liberal, enviro-weenies, perhaps America would drill for it's own oil. But thank the democrats for hamstringing any attempts at energy independence.
If you think the economy is bad now, wait until a Democrat becomes President... that frightens me... really...Sorry for the political discourse. All of the above is my opinion only. Feel free to disagree...
Left winger here. I disagree with you. Completely. And just for the record, I CAN'T wait till a Democrat becomes President. Maybe we can put our white hats back on and stop being pre-emptive badguys. Maybe even be proud to be called Americans again. Besides, domestic drilling isn't the answer; let's find alternative energy sources and get the monkey off our backs permanently. And not that it needs to be said, but all of the above is in my opinion only; since they haven't found a way to completely stop that yet.
Having said that; let's keep politics out of gaming boards if at all possible. It ticks off Sebastian and it distracts from the important stuff: like championing Pathfinder and dissing 4th Edition.
Ok, who else thought of statting up Obama and McCain for a no-holds barred dungeon crawl for the Presidency when they read that?
Just me?
Ooops.
the whole made in america point is pretty much moot, everything we do has some connection with china, so whats the point is arguing about it? next, from what i've heard, 4ed sounds alot like WoW. alot of the online roll playing games have tricks that take you out of the game. my friend tried it and said there are rules for the fighter to "mark" a target. if the target attacks someone else they suffer a penalty to attack... what causes this? some mystical link that non spell casting fighters have? and i guess the paladin gets to deal his charisma modifier in damage to someone he has marked...? again why? he sends some punishing bolt of power at someone who he marks that doesn't attack him? it just doesn't have that "based in a real world" feel like all the other editions. from what i've heard about it it just seems like its all based on WoW and other online RPG's even the enemies are all designed with WoW in mind with mobs, leets, and Boss monsters. i prefer my fantasy Role Playing to have a sense of reality inter mixed.
Well, since I don't know you, I can't really say I'll miss you or anything, but hopefully you'll find something you like in 4e
1. Upper levels still look hellish in Pathfinder. Since I usually DM, the idea of suffering through all those modifiers and cross-references for a monster that's going to die anyway is just too much.
Just a matter of opinion, obviously. I don't have any problems with it. Some critters should be able to do complicated stuff, and they're not all just going to die - villains are enemies, too, there's such a thing as reoccuring villains, and I think that if someone doesn't want cross-referencing and modifiers, there's plenty of easy critters who just hit PCs. But a balor is supposed to have a lot of tricks up his sleave, and not just 10 variations of "I hit you over the head", either.
2. The mess of iterative attacks is still there. Ugh.
It's not a bug, it's a feature. It's not as if they could be removed without breaking the game.
3. Spellcasters are still going to reduce the melee classes to sidekicks.
I must say that in my current campaign (Rise of the Runelords, level 12 characters, about to enter the Runeforge), the fighter (Valeros, which I usually let run along the regular party as a DM-NPC because we often play with only two players. He's brought up to the other PCs' power level) doesn't have to hide behind the spherewalker OR the evoker.
And worse, the fighter is still as boring to play as a brick. "I miss, I hit, I miss, I hit." Yech.
It's not boring. It's simple. It's important to have at least one class that is relatively easy to play, without remembering a dozen different conditions and abilities and whether they can be used right now. Such an entry class is vital for people who don't want all the hustle, or people who are new to roleplaying.
The beauty of the fighter is that if you want, you can always start to get the more complicated feats to do a lot more than rolling attacks.
4. Vancian casting is still haunting the scene. Enough said on that point.
Of course it is. This is D&D (maybe not in name, but in spirit). Nothing says D&D more than Vancian Magic. Might as well get rid of bards or gnomes.
6. And this is the real kicker that finally pushed me over the edge -- 4th edition, it turns out, is being printed in the U.S., while Pathfinder is being printed in China. If given a choice, I will support a company which supports American families rather than the People's Liberation Army slave-labor sweatshop factories.
Well, that's of no concern to me, since I'm not an U.S. citicen. I like how Paizo doesn't let imperialist notions get into the way of business and proves to be a true Global Citicen.
I don't think that Paizo's printers run sweatshops any more than the factories that paint wizards' D&D Miniatures are sweatshops where small children are tied to the line and forced to paint the little plastic figures.
When being patriotic, it's always important to be consistently patriotic, lest people consider one to be a hypocrite.
Well, as Firefly showed us, in the future we're all going to be speaking in American English and Chinese. We should just all realize this and prepare. Now, if The Brown Coats had known this earlier...
Say, your coat looks quite brown, too. Want to tell my why that is?
Actually, we did have an edition war between 1st and 2nd. I remember it vividly. We just didn't have the internet then, so all of the wars were local. They were there, though.we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time.
- AshavanYep, I even stopped playing D&D when 2nd edition came out because I didn't like what they did to my game. Of course, that meant that I started a game company instead, went on to help create Ars Magica and Vampire: The Masquerade, before returning to D&D with 3e. So in some ways, 2e was a very good change for me. :)
-Lisa
And it repeates with every even edition :D
Those would have to be some fairly high level stat blocks.
Crowd: But why Gene?
Gene: Because they're political... Giants!
Har har har...
No?
Damn... :p
Gene, you're a hack man ;-P
But note, you're proving my point... there was stuff missing then too - monk, assassin, half-orc - but we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time. There was also stuff drastically changed, notably the druid and illusionist.Well, also in the interest of fairness, you could run a 1st edition class in a 2nd edition game fairly easily, and it even mentioned allowing your players with 1st edition classes to "grandfather" them into 2nd edition.
There was also a "build your own class" section of the 2nd edition DMG.
You're quoting me quoting someone else further upthread btw :) I agree with you. The change between editions has always been fairly easy, until now. I delayed changing from the original D&D to AD&D largely because of the holier than though "though shalt play no way but my way" bit from TSR. Eventually I learned to ignore the ranting and get on with my game. The change from 1E AD&D to 2E AD&D went fairly smooth. About the time 2E got cumbersome (about a million "kits" among other things) 3E came out. I was cautious, but the more I looked the better I liked it, so I jumped ship. The 3E transition took a little work, but WotC made it as easy as possible. 3.5 was really easy. 4E on the other hand feels like a different game. An RPG, sure, but not D&D. And I'm not going to trash a setting I've been using for over 30 years to move to a game that isn't better, IMHO, just... different.
*edit* The boards have been a little wierd for me today. Posts being eaten, double posts, etc. Anybody else getting that, or is it *cue spooky music* just me?
Anyhow, I am afraid that in today's world, your options for having a 100 % patriotic hobby (whatever it is) are fairly limited.Walk bare foot and naked in your backyard.
...assuming you live in the country.
What? That is absolutely anti-patritotic and communistic. It makes our children gay and causes the breakdown of all morale and democracy. Though god has made us in his image, he does not want us to enjoy it. I'm afraid we have to stone you, as in the tradition of the founding fathers.
What? That is absolutely anti-patritotic and communistic. It makes our children gay and causes the breakdown of all morale and democracy. Though god has made us in his image, he does not want us to enjoy it. I'm afraid we have to stone you, as in the tradition of the founding fathers.
Err... you mean in the tradition of the Puritans. The Founding Fathers were a bunch of liberal Deists who slept around and partied too much... well maybe not too much. Just a lot :D
... But it's not even done yet.
4th Edition wasn't done when the Pathfinder RPG was announced.
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I treat the OP's statements as much interest as they warrant and think other folks ought to do the same.
If you can't use your real name as your sign in or in your profile, that lends even less credence to your statements, in my opinion. It's easy to lob spitbombs behind the annonimity of an alias.
Seriously, unless your last name is "Cook" or such, if you come on the board and announce that "4E" is it, so what? <shrug> Whoop-de-do. And I like playing 4E. And PF too.
Just as a casual observation, anyone who considers the presence of Vancian magic a dealbreaker is probably lost to us, and I'm ok with that.
Personally, I view the pulp fantasy roots of the game as a feature and not a flaw, and I'm glad that there is an edition of the game for people who don't, because that is not a version of the game I am very interested in publishing.
THANK YOU!
I'm very pleased to hear the reception you folks got at Origins.
It's gonna be a fun ride! :)
You're quoting me quoting someone else further upthread btw :)
Heh . . . sorry about that.
Don't feed the trolls.
*Oink*
Please don't feed me to the trolls.. :-(
*Oink*
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Actually, we did have an edition war between 1st and 2nd. I remember it vividly. We just didn't have the internet then, so all of the wars were local. They were there, though.we didn't have this ridiculous edition war at the time.
- AshavanYep, I even stopped playing D&D when 2nd edition came out because I didn't like what they did to my game. Of course, that meant that I started a game company instead, went on to help create Ars Magica and Vampire: The Masquerade, before returning to D&D with 3e. So in some ways, 2e was a very good change for me. :)
-Lisa
And for me since I am a White Wolf Storyteller system fanatic!!!!! :-)
