Consistancy, Not Exceptions.
I think that Barbarians should follow the rules and have a D10 like everyone else.
...to make up for the loss of HP and to discourage Barbarians from using Charisma as a dump stat they would get a new class feature:
Imposing (Ex)
A barbarian's presence and personal intensity is tied closely to their hulking size and stamina. Barbarians may add their CHA Modifier, as well as the normal CON modifier, to their Hit Die for determining Hit Points.
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Thoughts?
My rational is that it makes a Dump-stat useful, allows for a decent Intimidate check, and links the intensity of persona and rage.
And barbarian should increase STR (for dmg), DEX (for CHA), CON (for rage), and CHA (for equilibrate the D10), with poor WIS (for will) ? while sorcerers and wizards use 1 or 2 stats ?? Barbarian will became useless without great charisma boost...
Consistancy, Not Exceptions.
I think that Barbarians should follow the rules and have a D10 like everyone else.
...to make up for the loss of HP and to discourage Barbarians from using Charisma as a dump stat they would get a new class feature:
Imposing (Ex)
A barbarian's presence and personal intensity is tied closely to their hulking size and stamina. Barbarians may add their CHA Modifier, as well as the normal CON modifier, to their Hit Die for determining Hit Points..
.
.
Thoughts?
I think the rules don't really work, and should probably only be applied to converting other classes, if then. Leave the barbarians alone.
Give them all the Toughness feat automatically, and then add in an exception that allows barbarians (and any other d12-HD 3.X class) to take Toughness a second time only. It's also essentially the same thing as +1 hp/die, also covering the extra hit points a d12 at first level would provide.
Hmm.. I might be OK with that, it grants a higher average, but I still like the D12. But then you have problems with barbarian being a 1 level dip class...
If you want to make CHA more than a dumb stat for most of the classes, put WILLPOWER away from WISDOM and into CHA.
Done.
Barbarians+d12=good. Always and forever. Backwards compatibility. Iconic build.
Leave them alone. They've got a lot of abuse to absorb.
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Give them all the Toughness feat automatically, and then add in an exception that allows barbarians (and any other d12-HD 3.X class) to take Toughness a second time only. It's also essentially the same thing as +1 hp/die, also covering the extra hit points a d12 at first level would provide.Hmm.. I might be OK with that, it grants a higher average, but I still like the D12. But then you have problems with barbarian being a 1 level dip class...
Define the ability as "Barbarian Toughness." +3 hp at 1st level of Barbarian, and +1 hp/class level thereafter.
I think that you risk having super high hp barbarians that way. I'd rather see them have the d10 for consistency, and have an ability that simply gives them a flat +1hp/barbarian level, which is the difference on average between a d10 and a d12.
I agree with this.
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Im not really sure what the point is of saying a barbarian should have his hp lowerd to d10 but in order to keep the same number of hp it has now give it tougness or a +1 per lvl. In all the cases your still creating an exception to the rules like the barbarian having d12 for hd which seems to be the crux of the argument anyway.
How often do we get to roll d12s anyways? Just let Barbarians roll d12, it doesn't break anything in the system and it gives them something special.
If you want to make CHA more than a dumb stat for most of the classes, put WILLPOWER away from WISDOM and into CHA.
Done.
I like this suggestion.
Define the ability as "Barbarian Toughness." +3 hp at 1st level of Barbarian, and +1 hp/class level thereafter.
This works for me. I don't think people will waste an entire level just to gain a one-time benefit of 3HP. Plus you'd have to do it at level one - no one becomes a barbarian later after being civilized (if the DM is running his campaign realisticly).
Barbarians+d12=good. Always and forever. Backwards compatibility. Iconic build.
Leave them alone. They've got a lot of abuse to absorb.
True - the reasoning behind the change doesn't really make sense.
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If you really wanted to lower barbarian HP to d10 for neatness's sake (I understand, I'm one of those people that has to sort my colored candies before I can eat them!), I'd just give them low DR at an early level to account for their durability - maybe only while they're raging to keep the whole "I'm going to take a one level dip to get DR 1/-" under control.
::shrug::
Random idea I thought I'd throw out.
Consistancy, Not Exceptions.
I think that Barbarians should follow the rules and have a D10 like everyone else.
Not backwards-compatible.
Try telling your barbarian player he has to lose HP because Hit Dice should be more consistent.
Consistancy, Not Exceptions.
I think that Barbarians should follow the rules and have a D10 like everyone else.
Not backwards-compatible.
Try telling your barbarian player he has to lose HP because Hit Dice should be more consistent.
True, the barbarian D12 is NOT hurting anything but this silly new rule's feelings that wasn't needed for anything but justifying the removal of a D4 hit die and converting other classes. If it ant broke....
True, the barbarian D12 is NOT hurting anything but this silly new rule's feelings that wasn't needed for anything but justifying the removal of a D4 hit die and converting other classes. If it ant broke....
I apologize, please don't mistake my curtness for aggression.
As a house rule it's fine, logical even. But Pathfinder is walking a line as I understand it. You must remember how it felt when 3.5 was released and you had to scale back your character because someone arbitrarily decided it made more sense that way— even when it did make more sense, it still sucked.
So, as a rule, sure, and I like the feat. But I don't think it should go in.
True, the barbarian D12 is NOT hurting anything but this silly new rule's feelings that wasn't needed for anything but justifying the removal of a D4 hit die and converting other classes. If it ant broke....I apologize, please don't mistake my curtness for aggression.
As a house rule it's fine, logical even. But Pathfinder is walking a line as I understand it. You must remember how it felt when 3.5 was released and you had to scale back your character because someone arbitrarily decided it made more sense that way— even when it did make more sense, it still sucked.
So, as a rule, sure, and I like the feat. But I don't think it should go in.
OH no I had no problem with you. I just think Clerics and Druids BaB should be dropped a noch down one type, but keep their hit points.
Give them all the Toughness feat automatically
This is an excellent idea. Hit die to d10, and Toughness at Brb1. This also prevents any skill dipping issues to gain Barbarian Toughness, or the like.
The basic game design reasons to skip the idea of barbarians with two different Toughness sources are:
Hit die to d10, and Toughness at Brb1. This also prevents any skill dipping issues to gain Barbarian Toughness, or the like.
And to correct myself. Giving Toughness at Brb1 would make the class dipping issue worse. Toughness could be moved to the first "dry" Brb level, or some such.
Honestly I think that changing the barbarian's HD to d10 and then turning around and giving him extra free hit points (at any level) is just plain silly.
Why take away one of his iconic features just to make him fit in a kind of anal little grouping and then turn around and find a more complicated way to give it back to him. Ridiculous.
Sorry if I come across acerbic...but c'mon! Silly!
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I'd rather see them have the d10 for consistency, and have an ability that simply gives them a flat +1hp/barbarian level, which is the difference on average between a d10 and a d12.
I am firmly in the d10 camp. If you are going to standardize something then it should be standardized and not have exceptions to the rule. I like the idea of them gaining Toughness as a Bonus Feat at 1st level, which basically amounts to what you have said. The only problem is that I can see where this would lead to a 1 level dip into Barbarian. However, I still think that it is the best solution to the problem without creating yet another new class ability.
My rational is that it makes a Dump-stat useful, allows for a decent Intimidate check, and links the intensity of persona and rage.
Only problem is that there is a Feat (I think it's called Intimidating Presence, but I'm not 100% sure and I don't have the time atm to look) that lets a character substitute STR for CHA when using Intimidate. It does take up a Feat slot, but I think it's well worth it because it means that you can make CHA a Dump Stat, not a bad choice for a Barbarian.
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Only problem is that there is a Feat (I think it's called Intimidating Presence, but I'm not 100% sure and I don't have the time atm to look) that lets a character substitute STR for CHA when using Intimidate. It does take up a Feat slot, but I think it's well worth it because it means that you can make CHA a Dump Stat, not a bad choice for a Barbarian.
There are a lot of DMs out there who rule this way anyway, without requiring a feat.
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Honestly I think that changing the barbarian's HD to d10 and then turning around and giving him extra free hit points (at any level) is just plain silly.
Why take away one of his iconic features just to make him fit in a kind of anal little grouping and then turn around and find a more complicated way to give it back to him. Ridiculous.
Sorry if I come across acerbic...but c'mon! Silly!
Got to agree with you there. What I tried to say earlier only not as well.
Give them all the Toughness feat automaticallyThis is an excellent idea. Hit die to d10, and Toughness at Brb1. This also prevents any skill dipping issues to gain Barbarian Toughness, or the like.
The basic game design reasons to skip the idea of barbarians with two different Toughness sources are:
Keep it simple, no exceptions to feats or new class abilities, and
Backwards compatibility, if 3.5 Brb didn't have Toughness subtract 3hp, otherwise you're fine.
I am sorry to disagree here, but I think the hole point of keeping it a D12 here was to keep it simple. You can just leave it a D12 and have everything with a D12 easily convertible, or you could add this huge amount of text describing this specific class ability to be added to every class that has their hit die dropped to a D10 from a D12.
I am sorry to disagree here, but I think the hole point of keeping it a D12 here was to keep it simple. You can just leave it a D12 and have everything with a D12 easily convertible, or you could add this huge amount of text describing this specific class ability to be added to every class that has their hit die dropped to a D10 from a D12.
Or you could change the d12 to d10. Simple. I'm all for it.
I am all in favor of standardization. But I don't like giving the Toughness feat. (dipping issue...)
I prefer the suggestion of adding 1hp/Brb level. A kind of "Barbarian Toughness". (that would stack with the Toughness feat, if a player choose to take it)
Changing D12 to D10+1 also gives an unlucky player an higher *minimum* HP. A roll of 1 becomes 1+1, and I think it fits with the concept of the tough Barbarian.
It is also easier for backward compatibility. Average D12 = D10+1. No change has to made to Barbarian from 3.5
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If you want to make CHA more than a dumb stat for most of the classes, put WILLPOWER away from WISDOM and into CHA.
Done.Love this idea. Fits thematically, these days anyway. Wisdom has been redefined as perception and intuition, and Charisma as ego and force of personality.
Yeah but thenthat just makes WIS a Dump Stat for everyone but Clerics.
Yeah but thenthat just makes WIS a Dump Stat for everyone but Clerics.
Does it? Some really good "defensive" skills, Perception and Sense Motive, which in some games are nearly as valuable as a will save.
Monks still use it for AC, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Druids cast off it.
In fact, all that I say against the notion of CHA to Will saves is... not compatible. It would make good sense otherwise.
I like the idea of standardizing Hit Dice to BAB progressions, but instead of the 6-8-10 progression, I would have preferred 4-6-8 progression. Barbarians could either retain their d12, or could be brought down to d10. Yes, I would like classes to have fewer, rather than more hit points as they progress in levels than they have in 3.5E. Let's get rid of this hit point inflation already! The problem of low initial/starting hit points could instead be solved by giving characters a flat hit point bonus at level 1, such as the racial hit points variant already present in Pathfinder RPG Alpha releases.
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Why do you all disdain the d12 so much? Tis a lonely life, that of the d12, to be so oft maligned.... Will you next cast a scornful eye at the greataxe? The last holdout for the d12? I say nay!!!!
We must rally to save our endangered d12's! They must be raised up and held in a position of power! The regulator of the barbarian's survival! That which determines if the Axe hits powerfully or with a whimper.
The mighty D12!!!
Save this majestic die or we shall live in a d12-less world....a place I don't want to imagine.
Why do you all disdain the d12 so much? Tis a lonely life, that of the d12, to be so oft maligned.... Will you next cast a scornful eye at the greataxe? The last holdout for the d12? I say nay!!!!
We must rally to save our endangered d12's! They must be raised up and held in a position of power! The regulator of the barbarian's survival! That which determines if the Axe hits powerfully or with a whimper.
The mighty D12!!!
Save this majestic die or we shall live in a d12-less world....a place I don't want to imagine.
All hail the d12!!! Love the d12!!! 12: a celestially perfect number!!
Do not malign the wondrous d12! It has needs and feelings just like the rest of your dice.
Why do you all disdain the d12 so much? Tis a lonely life, that of the d12, to be so oft maligned.... Will you next cast a scornful eye at the greataxe? The last holdout for the d12? I say nay!!!!
We must rally to save our endangered d12's! They must be raised up and held in a position of power! The regulator of the barbarian's survival! That which determines if the Axe hits powerfully or with a whimper.
The mighty D12!!!
Save this majestic die or we shall live in a d12-less world....a place I don't want to imagine.
I agree. d12 is the most appealing, attractive, noble of all the dice.
Just keep the D12. It's easier then mucking about with new class abilities or giving bonus feats that will just accomplish the same thing anyway.
Wow...
Just wow...
Seriously folks, it ain't broke, don't need to go fixing it, especially if you're logic is 'lets simplify things by making it D10 and then complicating things with another class ability.
I would suggest that it be kept d12 and let the people who dislike that houserule it to their hearts content. It hardly qualifies as one of the aspects of 3.5 that need smoothing out.
