Yeah—I wonder if he's going the route of offering 4E rules-compatible products without signing to the GSL. Pretty much the only thing he loses is the ability to place Wizards' compatibility logo on the back cover, and the ability to refer to any game terms that wizards has trademarked (do they even have any such terms?)
Well is the term 'Dungeon Master' trademarked?
Goodman Games products get the early release I'm sure partly because they were on board with supporting 4E from the get-go. Whereas Paizo was too busy with listening to idiots like Razz and came out with the Pathfinder RPG, which I'm never going to touch.
Then you're here why? I'm sure WotC has a nice place where you can trash Pathfinder on their website.
Special licensing agreement, I wager.Either that or sometimes you have to punch someone in the groin to see if they are a career bully or just bluffing.
*Blackdragon pausing to write this one down.* LOL!
Well is the term 'Dungeon Master' trademarked?Yeah—I wonder if he's going the route of offering 4E rules-compatible products without signing to the GSL. Pretty much the only thing he loses is the ability to place Wizards' compatibility logo on the back cover, and the ability to refer to any game terms that wizards has trademarked (do they even have any such terms?)
It doesn't look like they're claiming it as a trademark in the 4e books. I seem to remember it was claimed as a trademark in earlier editions, though. Not sure if it's ever been registered, though.
Huge. Wizards could lose control of their IP. IIRC, Kobolds are not in the SRD. Well Kobolds are a german myth. Guess what, Goodman and AE can have Kobolds in their adventures. Mind Flayers are just a Cthulhu knock-off. Cthulhu is now public domain. Guess what. AE and Goodman can have their own Cthulhu knock off in their adventures. How about adventures "in the Realms Forgotten by time"? Publishers played nice in 3E because they had a favorable, safe harbor environment to publish in. Now, publishers are making a business decision because Wizards took away the safe harbor.
I agree with all of this. Just keep in mind, though, that something in the "public domain" in terms of copyright can still be a protectable trademark. You have to look at both when moving forward.
Chief Technical Officer
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Well is the term 'Dungeon Master' trademarked?Yeah—I wonder if he's going the route of offering 4E rules-compatible products without signing to the GSL. Pretty much the only thing he loses is the ability to place Wizards' compatibility logo on the back cover, and the ability to refer to any game terms that wizards has trademarked (do they even have any such terms?)
Yes. However, it's my understanding that "DM," "Game Master," and "GM" are not (at least, with respect to the usage we're talking about).
Word Mark DUNGEON MASTER
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I don't think anyone posted this. One of Goodman Games products is 'Points of Light'. It is a collection of generic campign settings. I found it funny.
It is four unrelated lands, each with a different theme....
Rob Conley, co-Author of Points Light.
I am sure it is fine work. But it is either an amazing coincidence or an act of defiance to WotC that you are calling it 'Points of Light'. That is the title of the default setting description as Rich Baker described it. Address to WotC article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070829a
Then you're here why? I'm sure WotC has a nice place where you can trash Pathfinder on their website.
Actually, they take more abuse over on their own site then they do here, believe it or not.
I think the only 'safe' haven for 4e gamers is EnWorld these days, and I'm not even sure about that.
Mind you, I have nothing against the 4e rules - I just prefer to play with the system I have invested hundreds (thousands?) of dollars in already.
Don't get me started with that abomination they are calling the 4go‡en Realms, though. They managed to drive away a 20-year fan... right into the arms of Golarion. Rules come and rules go, but they Nuked my favorite setting.
You wouldnt be able to call them mind flayers, or illithid or have the look of illithids.
Same thing with kobolds. Kobolds are a germanic myth but WOTC can easily point out, kobolds in myth look like miniature humans and NOT the D&D kobold.
Yea. Paizo did the same thing. Boggarts are Paizo frogmen. WotC owns the IP to ... whatever their classic D&D name is and they're not OGL. Paizo wanted to use frogmen in Pathfinder so they made their own. The idea of a froman isn't WotC IP, they just drew on different sources.
Be very carfeful about mxing trademark with copyright.
Furthermore, I don't think those that are angry with WOTC want WOTC to lose their IP. If they do, it also affects the industry in a big way (without WOTC providing the largest source of investment and advertising, you'll see the market shrink).
I'm sure Goodman and AE know what they're doing. They've had nearly a year to prepare since the official announcment and plenty of companies had more then a clue before then. And mind you, that's assuming that they're going that route. They might have received special permission to publish early. They mighty being simply taking a "hard stance" for negotiating purposes.
Who knows, maybe Orcus and Joseph Goodman are playing good cop/bad cop (with the demon lord/lawyer as the good cop *shudder*). Orcus has been essentially begging and pleeding WotC for a publisher friendly license. He might be going, "Can you please work with us? I don't know how long I can hold him back."
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Chief Technical Officer
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Who knows, maybe Orcus and Joseph Goodman are playing good cop/bad cop (with the demon lord/lawyer as the good cop *shudder*). Orcus has been essentially begging and pleeding WotC for a publisher friendly license. He might be going, "Can you please work with us? I don't know how long I can hold him back."
Love it!
Have they ever done a good job protecting their IP? I look around and there are tons of WOTC IP in every fantasy CRPG ( Final Fantasy series for example), in CCGs and in other RPGs.
This has gone for years, has it really done that much of a harm to WOTC?
D&D is still the most famous RPG, with over 50% of the market share. And the D&D brand CRPGS are plentyfull and profitable.
So is people publishing unlicensed for 4E really that much of a threat?
I mean, it has happened before and I guess it will happen again.
I don't think anyone posted this. One of Goodman Games products is 'Points of Light'. It is a collection of generic campign settings. I found it funny.It is four unrelated lands, each with a different theme. Each land is has a map with numbered hexes along with locales keyed to a hex. The background for each are kept light and with an eye towards making it easy for a referee to drop it in her campaign. The lands are roughly 125 by 100 miles. Entries have minimal stats that are useful for most RPGs especially the various editions of AD&D/D&D.
If you have a need for a frontier where players can carve out baronies then Southlands will help. If you have a frontier overrun by humaniods or barbarians than look at Wildlands. A war torn land split between two empires or factions then look at Borderlands. Finally the Swamp of Acheron is an realm set in the Outer Planes.
Rob Conley
co-Author of Points Light.
Sounds nifty! I'll probably check that out.
Ok, I've noticed that you follow Razz around and seem to answer every, single, regenerating (TROLL!), post Razz makes on 4e.I have to ask, how are you behaving any different than he does? I mean, I know that his posts are inflammatory, especially to someone who likes 4e, but I fail to see how your post-stalking is much better. To a large degree, I think its behavior like this (both you & Razz) that contribute to the ill will between the fans of 3.5 and 4e.
The 'Ling
Check your perspective here. You're seriously trying to draw a comparison between Razz's postings and FabesMinis? Did you note that FabesMinis was posting on this thread before Razz came along? Given that Razz only posts in the 4e forum despite his well known feelings for it? If people were following him to other threads outside 4e I could understand your point, but of course he doesn't post anywhere else, does he? He's a one trick pony, and sniping at FabesMinis, who actually contributes positively to the community, is unfair.
Don't know if this has been posted yet (didn't see it upthread) but:
We are allowing the publishers that take advantage of the designer kit to distribute promotional (not for sale) products prior to Aug 1 (as in the case for free RPG Day).
Well, if you say it... it must be gospel.Are you stalking Razz? Cause every time I see him post, you pop up and say something snarky. Fascinating.
Well, isn't it obvious? They're the same person!
And he's made of soylent green! AAAAAHHH!!! Conspiracy!!!;D
From looking at the website, it says that the DCC 53-55 are for 4E. Hmmm. Interesting.
Yep, noticed that. This looks like a potentially brilliant move on Joseph's part. The OGL and d20 license created brand association among the fans that can't be revoked like a license.
They were banking on the strength of the D&D brand without realizing they had already leveraged most of its usefulness to the major 3PPs.
The GSL is starting to look like a paper dragon.
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Don't know if this has been posted yet (didn't see it upthread) but:
We are allowing the publishers that take advantage of the designer kit to distribute promotional (not for sale) products prior to Aug 1 (as in the case for free RPG Day).
The post in question is datet 01/08/08, so it's from a time when Wizards was still in favour of the 5k route. They also planned for the bought in designers to distribute on gen con. The whole situation has changed since then.
The post in question is datet 01/08/08, so it's from a time when Wizards was still in favour of the 5k route. They also planned for the bought in designers to distribute on gen con. The whole situation has changed since then.
Very true. But it was also in response to Goodman's announcement of releasing product before the (then) Aug 1 release date, with The Rouse giving him a go ahead. Just thought it was something that bore thinking on (as in, Goodman may have the greenlight on this too)
Cheers! :)
I am sure it is fine work. But it is either an amazing coincidence or an act of defiance to WotC that you are calling it 'Points of Light'. That is the title of the default setting description as Rich Baker described it. Address to WotC article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070829a
Joseph Goodman is a great guy to work with however he is clear that marketing is his area of expertise. I could say that I am just the author and he is the boss; but when he proposed it I agreed wholeheartedly. The term doesn't appear to be protected in any form.
I will say that the lands I created for PoL had their origins long before Rich Baker wrote his article. His article is almost a perfect description of Judges Guild Wilderlands of High Fantasy which is the world that I started with back in the early 80's.
I appreciate Rich Baker putting it all together under a snazzy title. But the concept is not original. Many of us old timers were running Points of Light before the term was coined.
Wizards however was partly responsible for PoL. Last winter I threw up a fantasy version of the Outdoor Survival Map over on the Original D&D Discussion Board. One of the posters worked at Wizards and put me into contact with the right person to ask formal permission so I can publish it. While they were nice about it, I didn't get permission. My intent was to make a mini-setting where high-level character can go and carve out their own barony.
So I created a new Southland map. and made a pitch to Joesph Goodman for a product focused on mini-settings. It was accepted. When it came time to decide on a title and how to market it, Points of Lights fit the description of the lands I was creating and wasn't protected. Writing a mini-setting means that it is so stat light that it is effectively systemless. Which was good because it was written in April when we had no idea what would publishers be allowed to do.
Also if you look at the DMG they describe their setting like a Points of Light but nowhere they use it as a formal title of their setting "Nentir Vale", "Fallcrest", etc.
I am sure it is fine work. But it is either an amazing coincidence or an act of defiance to WotC that you are calling it 'Points of Light'. That is the title of the default setting description as Rich Baker described it. Address to WotC article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070829a
Joseph Goodman is a great guy to work with however he is clear that marketing is his area of expertise. ....I will say that the lands I created for PoL had their origins long before Rich Baker wrote his article.
I did not mean to imply any wrong doing. But this title just makes it scream, 'Use me with 4e!'. Not only for use with 4e, but extra sales don't hurt. This sounds like an amazing coincidence AND an act of defiance. Joseph titled it well.
By the way, I love 'generic' campaign settings. It allows you to take the author's ideas and mix them into your campaign. PoL is on my wishlist.
Again, according to Hasbro, this is pretty much all WotC's doing. Hasbro's only edict was that WotC get to profitability.
Pardon me if this was answered later in the thread, I'm posting as I read..
Vance, do you have a source on this?
I'm not meaning to sound doubtful or accusatoryin any way. Sincerely, I'm actually curious to the source for this comment, that's all. :)
I did not mean to imply any wrong doing. But this title just makes it scream, 'Use me with 4e!'. Not only for use with 4e, but extra sales don't hurt. This sounds like an amazing coincidence AND an act of defiance. Joseph titled it well.
All good here, it understand where you are coming from. Your line gave me an opportunity to explain more about the product. Being able to use Points of Light is just plain good luck rather than defiance. In fact I am glad that Rich Baker wrote about it because before it was hard to describe the themes I used in my writing.
My big concern is that people won't "get it" about what PoL is about. Not the concept by Rich Baker but the product itself. It not a setting like Greyhawk, Eberron, Pathfinder, that requires a decision to buy into. Neither it is as ready to run as a dungeon module would be. It occupies a middle ground that I think can be exploited to every benefit.
By the way, I love 'generic' campaign settings. It allows you to take the author's ideas and mix them into your campaign. PoL is on my wishlist.
You will find that the lands share common concepts (the god Sarrath, Delaquain, Bright Empire, etc). Because of limited space each land uses common concepts in a limited way suitable for that land. But if you read the whole product then you get a bigger picture. So even if you only use it for Wildland you will still benefit by having the other three lands in there.
Well if we're going to take points of light as an ownable phrase, doesn't that mean President GHW Bush coined it?Actually it was his dad, wasn't it? I remember it being an 'end to the cold war' thing...
George HW Bush is the dad
George W Bush is the son (and current) president.
so M.M. had it correct.
Well if we're going to take points of light as an ownable phrase, doesn't that mean President GHW Bush coined it?Actually it was his dad, wasn't it? I remember it being an 'end to the cold war' thing...
That's the "H" in GHW Bush.
George Dubya Bush and George Herbert Walker (?) Bush. But it's easy to miss in the message you quoted. But you're right, it was the elder Bush.Of course, the ancient Romans played with d20's, so really none of this is all that original. :)
Crud, too slow!! Wow, this post really is pointless then, huh? No points of light here, folks, move along.
I pity future children in history class.
Won't be any different then Presidents Andrew Jackson and Andrew Johnson or Teddy Roosevelt and FDR.
All good here, it understand where you are coming from. Your line gave me an opportunity to explain more about the product. Being able to use Points of Light is just plain good luck rather than defiance. In fact I am glad that Rich Baker wrote about it because before it was hard to describe the themes I used in my writing.
<snip>
Is this product edition-neutral then?
I am fleshing out my own homebrew world, but I'm keeping it 3e(PRPG), so would I find it useful?
[
Is this product edition-neutral then?
I am fleshing out my own homebrew world, but I'm keeping it 3e(PRPG), so would I find it useful?
Very much so. This is a typical entry (with stats)
0913 Sam’s Landing (Hamlet)
This small hamlet of mud huts is the marshalling area for Baron Beldon’s raids on the trade caravan passing between Westguard and Bolzak. There are usually several dozen canoes and a handful of barges pulled onto shore at any time. In the center of the hamlet is the Green Frog Inn, where Tom Lodon (Rog6) rules the thugs and pirates of Sam’s Landing with an iron fist. Nailed to a post next to his “throne” is the shriveled head of Sam Dalton, the former chief of the hamlet. Over 40 pirates and raiders live in the hamlet, along with a dozen women, and twenty slaves to tend potatoes patches. A good portion of the crop is used to brew Silver Lightning, a type of hard liquor. A dozen wererats (1 HD) live on the outskirts of town and are used as scouts on raids.
While nothing was copied directly from any edition, the magic items and effects (like drinking from the River Acheron) are also described in edition neutral terms. Any saves are given in new and old format like vs poison or fortitude.
For example
Treat a bogling as a lizardman with one extra HD and the ability to jump 15 feet.
Nice...
You just made a sale.
I make heavy use of Flying Buffalo's old line of City Books for my world, and another company doing a similar line of 'Plug & Play' accessories is a great thing.
Hye, I just got there first.
I pity future children in history class.Won't be any different then Presidents Andrew Jackson and Andrew Johnson or Teddy Roosevelt and FDR.
Don't forget John Adams and John Quincy Adams, or Adams2 and Adams6 as I'm sure they are called on the blogs.
Don't forget John Adams and John Quincy Adams, or Adams2 and Adams6 as I'm sure they are called on the blogs.
Yes, you're right. I had successfully blocked all memory of them. Oh well.
DAMN YOU, JOHN QUINCY ADAMS, FOR HAVING THE SAME NAME AS ANOTHER PRESIDENT!
Furthermore, I don't think those that are angry with WOTC want WOTC to lose their IP. If they do, it also affects the industry in a big way (without WOTC providing the largest source of investment and advertising, you'll see the market shrink).
I agree.
Monte Delves into this during one of his interviews when he is talking about his early days at ICE. The gist of his point was that ICE was never in competition with TSR and they new it. If TSR was hurting they were dying, if TSR was doing great then they were doing good.
acknowledge that 4e is a grid-munchkin's wet dream. [no offense meant,... and yet it is still offensive. Imagine that.
Why are you offended by this CWM?
Champions is a grid munchkin's wet dream too, and the game has many merits. I played for ten years and regret non of them. It does not offend me in the slightest that a math crazed munchkin pops cream all over the inside of his trouser when he sees the awesome potential for power.
I was just warming up to you, then you crapped all over tenser's thread. Now you're telling people that their observations (right or wrong) are offensive.
Nobody is giving offense. What gives?
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Creative Director
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Why are you offended by this CWM?acknowledge that 4e is a grid-munchkin's wet dream. [no offense meant,... and yet it is still offensive. Imagine that.
Perhaps the crude descriptions and analogies? "Popping cream" is also offensive. If you don't believe me, go into any public place and recite your last post out loud for everyone to hear and check out their reactions. It's fine in private conversations, but this is a public board. Anyone can come on here and read anything anyone posts. Using phrases like "grid-munchkin wet dreams" don't support a non-offensive personality.
Note: I'm not saying you are an offensive person, Kruelaid... but remember that all we have to know you by on these boards is what you type. That goes for everyone, in fact.
Perhaps the crude descriptions and analogies? "Popping cream" is also offensive. If you don't believe me, go into any public place and recite your last post out loud for everyone to hear and check out their reactions.Why are you offended by this CWM?acknowledge that 4e is a grid-munchkin's wet dream. [no offense meant,... and yet it is still offensive. Imagine that.
....and tell them James Jacobs sent you!
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I've read through some of the Punjar Gazetteer, and it seems to me pretty gritty and racy even for a GSL-supported work.
the author talks about Pimps and the like..there is much reference to drug culture...the city is unabashedly evil...
I like it..the dark and evil Zamora-type city, but I thought this was a no,no in the new WotC 4e culture.
So..anyone know how Goodman Games is doing this?
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Perhaps the crude descriptions and analogies? "Popping cream" is also offensive. If you don't believe me, go into any public place and recite your last post out loud for everyone to hear and check out their reactions. It's fine in private conversations, but this is a public board. Anyone can come on here and read anything anyone posts. Using phrases like "grid-munchkin wet dreams" don't support a non-offensive personality.
Note: I'm not saying you are an offensive person, Kruelaid... but remember that all we have to know you by on these boards is what you type. That goes for everyone, in fact.
While I cannot disagree with this in any manner, I don't think this is what CWM is offended about. Which is what is kind of silly.
If he is, I'm wrong and ignore this post.
Note: I'm not saying you are an offensive person, Kruelaid... but remember that all we have to know you by on these boards is what you type. That goes for everyone, in fact.
Point taken.