Can you point me to some source to read up on this?I don't if someone has already, but...
Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Copyright protection does not extend to any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in the development, merchandising, or playing of a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles.
More info here: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html
That's a dot gov, by the way. I'm fairly certain that federal law supersedes the local laws of Washington State, too. Of course, if you sign the GSL, that's a moot point.
Yeah, but the GSL allows for the usage of copyrightable expressions of those mechanics (to a certain extent), as well as access to WoTC trademarks, by a 3rd party. Many of the terms in 4e can be expressed in multiple ways (avoiding merger doctrine problems), so anyone who wants to create a 4e clone using OGL would have to change a lot of terminology and rules wording, rendering the enterprise virtually useless, assuming you wanted to sell it to 4e users.
Okay, I'll ask some trivia to keep the thread rolling:
Easy:
What was the first company that had a contract to produce compatible material with the Dungeons and Dragons game?
Medium:
What race featured in Spelljammer was known for its love of all things gunpowdery?
Hard:
What is considered the Holy Grail for collectors who specialize in Planescape material?
Planes of [x] boxed set. Now which "Planes of" was it? Hmmm... Conflict?
Right on first two, but the last one is hard, I'll give a hint, it was never mass marketed, it was only available at one venue.
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The WoTC 2000 study put D&D at 66%
2000 StudyThen in 2007, Ryan Dancey estimated D&D market share at 50%
Ryan EstimatesSo, yeah. I think they're real numbers.
I'm not sure how meaningful that comparison is; the CY2000 study reports that 66% of people who play tabletop RPGs more than 1x/month play D&D, not how much of the tabletop RPG market WOTC owns.
Oops, turns out that if you calculate total spent on D&D over total spent on tabletop RPGs per year, you get about 66% too, although that number doesn't appear anywhere in the report. What I'm not seeing in Dancey's numbers is #of people who play tabletop RPGs more than 1x/month, so I can't tell how big the market is.
Gencon? I don't know then. :-(
It was sold at GenCon, but I'll wait before revealing in case someone wants to guess :)
Hang on. I think I recall seeing a reference to a glass or metal Planescape tumbler once. Is that it, or am I making it up? :-)
Nope. But if no one guesses I'll tell in a bit. :)
Let's see, my memory is a little sketchy, but I'm thinking it's not a rulebook... ;)
(Having been the webmaster of the Official Planescape Fan Site, I am near positive what it is, but I don't want to spoil the fun. I know it's the one piece I wish I had to complete my Planescape collection.)
Ok I gotta run, so I'll spill. The item I am refering to can be seen in greater detail under this link: Planescape Sketchbook
I recently saw one on eBay getting bid into the 2K level.
EDIT: Ken you run Planewalker.com? That site rawks! I mine it endlessly for my PbP. :)
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Am I a bad person for still wanting to play both PRPG and 4.0?
No. I'm going to be running/playing in both systems.
I don't like enough that I'm going to switch over completely, and I love Paizo to death. Still, the GSL makes me sad. I really *really* had been hoping they were going to make it more open, so I could maybe see some good adventures for it in the future (my main non-wotc purchase in 3.5, as I usually only run modules). Unfortunately, Paizo has the best quality out there in terms of what I've seen on adventures, and they're PRPG.
So my group is thinking of doing Paizo and PRPG 3/4 weeks a month, and 4.0 the lone week. I still think it's fun, and it is a good product. I just wish they weren't such bullies :(
Decisions from both companies had been made. Note, though, a lot of folks will be converting 3.x/PRPG stuff to 4E on the boards. Thus, you can still purchase/run future Paizo products and play it in 4E :)
Note, though, a lot of folks will be converting 3.x/PRPG stuff to 4E on the boards. Thus, you can still purchase/run future Paizo products and play it in 4E :)
This is a little bit off-topic, but I was wondering if anyone had tried to convert 4E adventures back to 3.x? How difficult would that be? Say someone wanted to play/run Keep on the Shadowfell using the Pathfinder RPG rules...
:: Reads first 17 pages of thread ::
:: Self inflicts Quivering Palm from 1st ed ::
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Note, though, a lot of folks will be converting 3.x/PRPG stuff to 4E on the boards. Thus, you can still purchase/run future Paizo products and play it in 4E :)This is a little bit off-topic, but I was wondering if anyone had tried to convert 4E adventures back to 3.x? How difficult would that be? Say someone wanted to play/run Keep on the Shadowfell using the Pathfinder RPG rules...
I actually considered doing that because I now have 2 4th Edition adventures (D&D Day and Free RPG Day) that otherwise are worthless.
I actually it would be hard - the biggest obstacle would be recalculating BAB and saving throws. The key would be remembering how monster abilities work in 3.X, like say a minotaurs gore.
I plan to just use the adventures and the Monster Manual to replace monsters (making sure to check CR and EL).
Started a new thread for this topic:
4th Edition Module Conversions
This is a little bit off-topic, but I was wondering if anyone had tried to convert 4E adventures back to 3.x?
No. I doubt that there will be much that would justify that effort (even if that effort consisted of pressing a button)
Damn Hasbro's not getting any more of my money.Hasbro had NOTHING to do with any of these decisions.
I say again, in case I'm not clear:
Hasbro had NOTHING to do with any of these decisions.
Do you know what WOTC is to Hasbro? A write-off. That's it. Think they REALLY give a rat's petootie about the GSL and all that?
They will when people stay away from their merchandise in droves. Okay, not that likely, but still, it's their company, they could pay attention, but either they don't, or they do and approve, and either way, at least some people are going to show what they think about with their money.
The WoTC 2000 study put D&D at 66%
2000 StudyThen in 2007, Ryan Dancey estimated D&D market share at 50%
Ryan EstimatesSo, yeah. I think they're real numbers.
I'm not sure how meaningful that comparison is; the CY2000 study reports that 66% of people who play tabletop RPGs more than 1x/month play D&D, not how much of the tabletop RPG market WOTC owns.
Oops, turns out that if you calculate total spent on D&D over total spent on tabletop RPGs per year, you get about 66% too, although that number doesn't appear anywhere in the report. What I'm not seeing in Dancey's numbers is #of people who play tabletop RPGs more than 1x/month, so I can't tell how big the market is.
I think that the problem with the gaming market is by it's very nature had to quantify. I mean, I've played with alot of players over the years that never bought the books. They just used ours when they played. I also have alot of players who by the core books, but never buy anything else. so I would imagin it would be hard to get an accurate count on how many gamers there are out there.
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I think that the problem with the gaming market is by it's very nature had to quantify. I mean, I've played with alot of players over the years that never bought the books. They just used ours when they played. I also have alot of players who by the core books, but never buy anything else. so I would imagin it would be hard to get an accurate count on how many gamers there are out there.
That's why a more meaningful comparison is going to look like:
"In CY2000, the total amount paid for tabletop RPGs worldwide was $X1, and WOTC reported gross sales on tabletop RPG-related items of $Y1; in CY2007, those numbers were $X2 and $Y2, respectively. How does Y1/X1 compare to Y2/X2?"
Even here there's room for argument, though. I think Ryan Dancey's point wrt the OGL [1] was that even if Y1/X1>Y2/X2 (i.e., WOTC lost market share between CY2000 and CY2007), and even if Y1>Y2 (i.e., WOTC made less on tabletop RPGs in CY2007 than in CY2000), the situation would have been worse overall without the OGL (i.e., that the wide selection of 3PPs slowed the loss of customers to MMORPGs).
[1] I've seen people on these messageboards claim that they spent more on WOTC products than they would have if there hadn't been things like the Paizo APs out there...the plural of anecdote is not data, but it's still suggestive.
I think that the problem with the gaming market is by it's very nature had to quantify. I mean, I've played with alot of players over the years that never bought the books. They just used ours when they played.
And, on the other side, people buy books they never use in a game, RPGs they never play. I know I have.
I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/
-Lisa
Oh Gawd I can sooo sympathize Lisa. eBay and several brick and mortar GS (not to mention your fine establishment) have drained literaly tens of thousands away in gaming materials, mostly WoD and D&D. I have the entire Ral Partha Planescape miniatures line NIB for pity's sake!
Not buying 4e seems like quitting cigs was, something difficult, but after it was done I felt better about myself. In fact I felt so good about this descision and my self-control that I went and bought my Superscriber status and $100 of other stuff from Paizo ;)
Yeah, it is really, really weird for me. I have EVERY D&D product produced by TSR and WotC, all editions, all the campaign settings, the box sets (I even have the only copy of the Wildspace box game that I know about), everything. Whenever anybody at WotC and now Paizo is looking for some old, obscure D&D book, they come to me. I am a completist of a almost compulsive nature And yet, my collecting of official D&D stops here. I think I might buy up some of the best 3.x stuff to add to the library instead. And, of course, all the cool Pathfinder stuff. Oh, wait, we make that. :)
One thing I am going to be really interested in collecting is 3pp products that support the PFRPG. That will be a trip!
-Lisa
With this post Lisa, you went from being CEO of a company I love, to a little bit of a hero for me.
Your obsessive collecting is... well, lets say I admire it.I probably shouldn't, it'll just go poorly for me and my obsessive collecting.
Ok, I lie really.
I just want your collection.
*sigh*
I guess it's back to ebay.
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I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/
-Lisa
Oh Gawd I can sooo sympathize Lisa. eBay and several brick and mortar GS (not to mention your fine establishment) have drained literaly tens of thousands away in gaming materials, mostly WoD and D&D. I have the entire Ral Partha Planescape miniatures line NIB for pity's sake!
Not buying 4e seems like quitting cigs was, something difficult, but after it was done I felt better about myself. In fact I felt so good about this descision and my self-control that I went and bought my Superscriber status and $100 of other stuff from Paizo ;)
Yeah, it is really, really weird for me. I have EVERY D&D product produced by TSR and WotC, all editions, all the campaign settings, the box sets (I even have the only copy of the Wildspace box game that I know about), everything. Whenever anybody at WotC and now Paizo is looking for some old, obscure D&D book, they come to me. I am a completist of a almost compulsive nature And yet, my collecting of official D&D stops here. I think I might buy up some of the best 3.x stuff to add to the library instead. And, of course, all the cool Pathfinder stuff. Oh, wait, we make that. :)
One thing I am going to be really interested in collecting is 3pp products that support the PFRPG. That will be a trip!
-Lisa
With this post Lisa, you went from being CEO of a company I love, to a little bit of a hero for me.
Your obsessive collecting is... well, lets say I admire it.
I probably shouldn't, it'll just go poorly for me and my obsessive collecting.Ok, I lie really.
I just want your collection.*sigh*
I guess it's back to...
Obsessive Compulsiveness is not something to take lightly. It feels like you really had no choice in what you had to do. So I got little lumps of Star Wars platic for a collection as well. What does it do for me? I stare at it sometimes, and realize that I consciously don't need these plastic pieces to be happy with myself, as I truly am. I can a better person without all those lumps of plastic (such as a Kick-Ass Darth Maul from the Clone Wars set with a duel lightsaber). I sometimes wonder if that Darth Maul Mini is a manifestation of my obsessive compulsive behavior in shoulder devil form. I really can't say. I think there are happier people in this world who don't own 1000's of dollars worth of plastic lumps that collect dust, but I just can't see them from my family room window. I really can't afford trips far away, so I guess I pay for lumps of plastic that come from far away costing the price of what it would take to travel far away.....except in this case I get to keep a nice lump of plastic till I am dead. I like my oil by product a lot, but in the end...did I live?
Live more and collect less!
Cheers,
Zux
Hi everyone (sorry for the long post and minor threadjack... this was more relevant a few pages back, but I still think this is the thread for it).
I’ve had a lot going on over the past few months, including moving out of home, starting a new job, and so on (in addition to an unstable Internet connection at my new place). Anyway, these are some reasons why I’ve dropped off the radar for a while. Another reason was avoiding the turmoil of messageboards during the wait for 4th Edition.
I’m one of those people who “knew” they were converting. Early 4e previews were exciting and seemed to streamline the game. As time went on, I became less excited and more uncertain and worried. I did buy the core books, read them, generated a few characters, ran a few games, but the excitement and the love wasn’t there. Instead, I felt like my creativity was constrained. There’s arguments both ways about whether 4e is limiting or not, but this is how I felt.
However, everything I’ve seen from Paizo has been excellent, and reading through the Pathfinder RPG made me *excited* and filled my head with all sorts of creative ideas, without even trying. This was in stark contrast to 4e where it took great effort to unleash the same sort of creativity.
Anyway, the 4e GSL pushed me squarely into Pathfinder territory. I understand that it's not as bad as many people are making it out to be, but I just can't bring myself to support WotC after seeing it. It’s not just the GSL, though. It’s the constant delays, the seemingly low production values on recent products, the poor marketing and all that other stuff. It wouldn’t be so bad, but then I see Paizo and their commitment to excellence, their ambitious and exciting products, their amazing customer focus and the creativity-supporting open playtest of the Pathfinder RPG (and of course, the great community here on the boards).
The choice for me is clear. Paizo and Pathfinder are the future for me. I’ll keep my 4e books, and I’ll keep an eye on WotC over the next year (especially to see what happens with third-parties) but I’m feeling very happy about my decision to stick with Pazio and Pathfinder.
I just wanted to thank everyone involved for your awesome efforts and your love of the hobby. You’ve won me over, again :)
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I'm not worried about the more paranoid position that this somehow allows Wizards to steal IP, because the liscense simply doesn't allow that.
I would counter that it does, since it forces you to sign away all current and future right to object to any claims, by WotC, that they own all the content of their current or future SRD, from now to eternity. An SRD that can be amended at any time, and applied retrospectively, giving them the ability to sue you for printing your version before they had thought of it.
An IP that you are unable or not prepared to defend in court is not your IP. You are forced to shrug your shoulders, think "Golly, what an amazing coincidence! Guess great minds think alike!", then go destroy (at your own expense) all evidence that you ever had the idea for the concept yourself. And any other product that references your idea.
Saying that 'That's not how I interpret it' doesn't alter anything. Nor does 'That won't stand up in court, before any reasonable person'. All the reasonable people are forced to leave the building, since you signed away your right to a jury of your peers, so all that are left are the lawyers (apologies to any lawyers on these boards), who can only assess the letter of the agreement. The agreement that you signed.
I think that the problem with the gaming market is by it's very nature had to quantify. I mean, I've played with alot of players over the years that never bought the books. They just used ours when they played.And, on the other side, people buy books they never use in a game, RPGs they never play. I know I have.
*Looks with remorse at Dragonmech* I know the feeling.
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Obsessive Compulsiveness is not something to take lightly. It feels like you really had no choice in what you had to do. So I got little lumps of Star Wars platic for a collection as well. What does it do for me? I stare at it sometimes, and realize that I consciously don't need these plastic pieces to be happy with myself, as I truly am. I can a better person without all those lumps of plastic (such as a Kick-Ass Darth Maul from the Clone Wars set with a duel lightsaber). I sometimes wonder if that Darth Maul Mini is a manifestation of my obsessive compulsive behavior in shoulder devil form. I really can't say. I think there are happier people in this world who don't own 1000's of dollars worth of plastic lumps that collect dust, but I just can't see them from my family room window. I really can't afford trips far away, so I guess I pay for lumps of plastic that come from far away costing the price of what it would take to travel far away.....except in this case I get to keep a nice lump of plastic till I am dead. I like my oil by product a lot, but in the end...did I live?
Some people collect lumps of plastic, others spend hundred of thousands of dollars on bits of metal on 4 lumps of rubber, other collect shiny things, some collect the corner office - in the end, everything humans do is selfish in some way or another, so accept it and revel in what makes you happy, because you can't take it with you.
Your lawyer is right, you'll still "own" your IP, but you can't sell it or use it. All yours, baby, all yours.
No, you simply can't produce that IP under the OGL. That's all it says. Not "you can never print something with this IP again." Just that you agree not use the OGL. And guess what? Most roleplaying books are not produced under the OGL.
All having the GSL revoked means is that you would have to come up with your own game system to continue producing your campaign setting. For some 3rd party companies that woudl be a death knell. For others? Not so much.
The setting, the names, the people, places, things, and history of your setting is still all yours, and you can still print things in that universe. Just not using the d20 game system.
No, you simply can't produce that IP under the OGL. That's all it says. Not "you can never print something with this IP again." Just that you agree not use the OGL. And guess what? Most roleplaying books are not produced under the OGL.But you're missing a big point. WotC can later turn around and say that - no - you can't publish that game as a d6 version, or your own 'house' system either. And they can apply to just you, because you've given them that right.
Will they do it? Tough to say. But, you don't think for a minute that WotC wouldn't delight at the chance to permanenly kill Vampire, Shadowrun, et al, by abusing the power of the GSL?
No, dude, they can not! That is not at all what the GSL says. They do not gain control over what you publish or do not publish outside of the GSL and OGL.
When you agree to the GSL you agree ONLY that you can't publish under the open gaming liscence. That has nothing at all to do with you creating a d6, d8, or d12 version of our IP that you develop yourself. Your system would not require any liscence at all, because it is your IP and your game system. WotC woudl have no say at all in what you print at that point.
Will you be successful? As a previous poster pointed out replying to my post, it is really really hard for an independant publisher to get anywhere in this industry. Monte Cook doesn't think his setting would be worth redoing, and he's probably right. The indy gaming market is very small. That's why so many people hitched thier wagon to the OGL, and why many are going to do the same with the GSL.
But how many sales you will be able to make with a self made game system isn't what we're talking about. We are talking about whether you CAN do it legally, and the GSL does not in any way prevent you from publishing your own IP with your own game system.
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That does seem to be the safest thing to make. Anybody else see any other opportunities that are safe from "retroactive redefinition?"From what I can see, this is designed entirely to facilitate the production of adventure modules, none of which would include new monsters or materials outside of the Wizards IP (why would you even try, considering the creative and financial castration you'd be risking?)
I'd be amazed and more then a bit flabbergasted if anyone would consider trying to bring out anything else wider then that.
Well what about something like Classic Monsters Revisted, since that only deals with fluff material. Could you not still publish something like this under the GSL (getting compatability benefits) but since it is all flavour text it is safe?
The joys of non-lawyers debating law. I think Teiren's right on his point, but have no way to back him up. Try pulling a lawyer in here to settle the dispute.
Your confusing explict, direct control vs. influence.
Let's play a hypothetical game.
Your got a 3pp and you publish your 4e stuff with GSL and things are going good. You decide to publish some stuff in d6. The letter comes from WoTC canceling your license. Why did this happen? Who knows. They don't have to tell you. You can't sue them.As you are pulpling all your 4e products that are in your warehouse, you are deciding how many employeees you can support on a d6 only product line.
All your IP is still yours.
Sound like fun? I've got a bridge you may be interested in purchasing...
True, but if you already have a successful line in another non-OGL system, you can convert it to 4E. If they don't like you still selling in your other system they'll deny/revoke your license at some point, but you can still continue to sell your own material in your own system, as far as I can tell.
Not that great for the little guy, but bigger scale operations probably could gain from it, even if it is a limited print run (because they end up pulling your license/you prefer to make your own stuff primarily).
The joys of non-lawyers debating law. I think Teiren's right on his point, but have no way to back him up. Try pulling a lawyer in here to settle the dispute.Lawyers here have ALREADY commented on the GSL, and it's been resoundingly negative. Again, the issue is that WotC is free to change any terms they want and apply them retroactively, including the redress they can claim if they find you in breach.
As it stands at this moment, they can simply prevent you from ever producing your material in any OGL format. But they can also expand that restriction at their leisure, and again apply that retroactively. So, for instance, they can ban a 'GURPS' version at a future date, and retroactively punish anyone who moved on to GURPS. (As an example).
And, by signing on the dotted line, you've agreed to it.
As others have pointed out, however, it is very difficult to actually sign away your rights. If WotC puts in a clause says "all who have produced for the GSL must submit in person at our offices for personal enslavement" its not going to hold up in court, and (in my non-lawyerly opionion) neither would them telling you couldn't publish your own IP in your own game system.
Shrug.
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For example I read Wolfgang's note over on Open Design. As is, he's right that KQ is SOL. But is it possible that for .XX$ for every issue he could get a modified license that allows publishing of something that includes both? Would he want to do it? Who knows?The legal and licensing department of Hasbro would know. I haven't figured out whether I'm going to ask. Tonight is probably not the best time to make that decision.
So, did you ask?
"Hey, can I write about your new game in my magazine or what?"Or perhaps figure out some non-GSL way like Goodman is doing? Just curious.