It's similar to software development.
Alpha is the untested, possibly unstable, 'idea phase'. It is released free as a PDF for testing purposes.
Beta is the debugging phase, but with most of the core ideas in place. It is being released free as a PDF or cheap as a printed volume.
Final is the finished product, which will incorporate things learned from a year of beta testing. It will be released in August of 2009, at GenCon. Both the print and PDF copy will have a price tag.
Chief Technical Officer
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It's similar to software development.
Alpha is the untested, possibly unstable, 'idea phase'. It is released free as a PDF for testing purposes.
Beta is the debugging phase, but with most of the core ideas in place. It is being released free as a PDF or cheap as a printed volume.
Final is the finished product, which will incorporate things learned from a year of beta testing. It will be released in August of 2009, at GenCon. Both the print and PDF copy will have a price tag.
Also, there's stuff that didn't make it into the beta that will be present in the finished product. In addition to some content—prestige classes, more magic items and spells—it will also be more polished, with more art and an index and such. In fact, Jason thinks the finished RPG will be about 560 pages, while the beta ended up at a hair over 400.
GOOD GODS! 560....damn....just damn
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Also, there's stuff that didn't make it into the beta that will be present in the finished product. In addition to some content—prestige classes, more magic items and spells—it will also be more polished, with more art and an index and such. In fact, Jason thinks the finished RPG will be about 560 pages, while the beta ended up at a hair over 400.
Given that, doesn't it make sense to maybe go ahead and split the book back into two tomes? To be honest, I haven't seen many gaming books of that size hold up under heavy use, as the bindings just can't take it. In addition, 30%+ of that book only one person at the table (the GM) needs. For most folks, it ain't a big deal, but when you are at a convention (playing Pathfinder Society) thats an extra bit of space in your bag that you could fit more swag in. In addition, I belive most cons have rules about carrying weapons (and at 560 pages, a gaming hardcover would probably qualify).
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Given that, doesn't it make sense to maybe go ahead and split the book back into two tomes? To be honest, I haven't seen many gaming books of that size hold up under heavy use, as the bindings just can't take it.
My Ptolus book is doing fine and my World's Largest Dungeon.. which gets used every 4th of July, is in great condition.
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Given that, doesn't it make sense to maybe go ahead and split the book back into two tomes? To be honest, I haven't seen many gaming books of that size hold up under heavy use, as the bindings just can't take it. In addition, 30%+ of that book only one person at the table (the GM) needs. For most folks, it ain't a big deal, but when you are at a convention (playing Pathfinder Society) thats an extra bit of space in your bag that you could fit more swag in. In addition, I belive most cons have rules about carrying weapons (and at 560 pages, a gaming hardcover would probably qualify).
Tough call. I'd prefer to stick with one volume to keep the price down. Even though players don't generally need the DMG most players who buy books get the DMG anyways. Also, again most people who have books take them to their weekly games. So maybe you save a pound hauling back and forth to a convention but that's 2 lbs (binding and whatnot) you have to haul every week to the game table.
Assuming a single big book is durable enough I would prefer that.
What I would like to see is pricing on a PDF for the final version.
-- dennis
Along the same lines as Ptolus (which I think is an easily manageable size) it would be great to see a cd rom included with the final rules. This could include all sorts of goodies!
WEll At the very least we can see how the printed 400 page Beta holds up to a year of use and that should give us an idea of how a 600 page Final might hold up. My Ptolus book is holding up, but then I treat a heck of a lot better than my core books.
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I would not be at all surprised to see a book with more than 500 pages. 600 is not wholly out of the question.
We will take extra steps to ensure that the book has a good binding.
--Erik
I have great faith that anything Paizo puts out will be top shelf in quality. With the exception of one small incident involving a map and razor blades all my Paizo products have been of the highest production quality. ;)
Will one large volume really be that much cheaper than two smaller ones? Even after the 34% Amazon discount, Ptolus (670 pages plus extras) still cost me more than the three 4th Ed core books in the slip case (with a higher total page count), which makes me wonder how a 600+ Pathfinder RPG could possibly cost less than separate PFRG Players' and DM's guides.
I would not be at all surprised to see a book with more than 500 pages. 600 is not wholly out of the question.
We will take extra steps to ensure that the book has a good binding.
--Erik
Wow! That thing will be bigger that a college Biology book!
I would not be at all surprised to see a book with more than 500 pages. 600 is not wholly out of the question.
We will take extra steps to ensure that the book has a good binding.
--Erik
Awesome.
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Will one large volume really be that much cheaper than two smaller ones? Even after the 34% Amazon discount, Ptolus (670 pages plus extras) still cost me more than the three 4th Ed core books in the slip case (with a higher total page count), which makes me wonder how a 600+ Pathfinder RPG could possibly cost less than separate PFRG Players' and DM's guides.
First compare the costs of three sets of bindings/covers with one reinforced sets.
Second, remember that Ptolus is out of print and even when first sold was of limited run v WoTC's happily ordering more books,
Third, look around about the boards for complaints about the quality of production materials some people have encountered with the 4E books as opposed to Ptolus.
Comparing the two might not be the best option.
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I would not be at all surprised to see a book with more than 500 pages. 600 is not wholly out of the question.
We will take extra steps to ensure that the book has a good binding.
--Erik
Awesome. Almost all of the teasers for PFRPG make me salivate and squirm with glee.
If the binding costs don't skyrocket into the stratosphere, please include (multiple) bound-in fabric bookmarks, as in the Ptolus book. It's a great touch and a very useful element in such a huge product.
In fact, Jason thinks the finished RPG will be about 560 pages, while the beta ended up at a hair over 400.
Holy Cow Batman!!!
I think I will buy a 2nd copy, just to throw at Bob. [he is a player at my table, and I have a hacky-sack, a light eraser, and a very heavy eraser that go his way at least once every session. He is the Worlds Champion at Bad Puns! A book this size just *might* stop the puns!]
-- david
Papa.DRB
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Erik - provide us with a well-bound, 600+ page libram that renews the lifeblood of our complete 3.5 collection and my group will be beside ourselves with joy! I look forward to this incredible pathfinder role-playing game experience. (Colored ribbon bookmarks would be highly favored as well.) We associate the PAIZO name with what it means to produce high quality materials. Thank you, thank you, and thank you again.
I would not be at all surprised to see a book with more than 500 pages. 600 is not wholly out of the question.
We will take extra steps to ensure that the book has a good binding.
--Erik
You know, if you're going to go that far, it's only another 70 pages or so to beat out Ptolus...
Uh, how many pounds do you think that's going to be? (thinking about the shipping costs)
What will the weight of this tome be?
As long as it has high quality and durability, it makes little difference as to whether it is one volume or two.
Will there be a monster section, or will that be a separate book?
Holy Cow Batman!!!
I think I will buy a 2nd copy, just to throw at Bob. [he is a player at my table, and I have a hacky-sack, a light eraser, and a very heavy eraser that go his way at least once every session. He is the Worlds Champion at Bad Puns! A book this size just *might* stop the puns!]
-- david
Papa.DRB
Not only would it stop the puns, it'd likely put him in the hospital. :)
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If the binding costs don't skyrocket into the stratosphere, please include (multiple) bound-in fabric bookmarks, as in the Ptolus book. It's a great touch and a very useful element in such a huge product.Seconded!
Thirded!!! ;)
The size of the book will not bother me in the slightest, as long as its put together in all the right places and continues the same quality we've all seen from previous products from the gang at Paizo... we should all be in for an excellent treat!
I wonder if we can have it gift wrapped? ;)
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What will the weight of this tome be?
As long as it has high quality and durability, it makes little difference as to whether it is one volume or two.
Will there be a monster section, or will that be a separate book?
Perhaps a brief monstrous section could be included! Just the basics - Goblins, Orcs, a low CR dragon, simple undead, etc! Just a little something to keep us going till a full sized monster grimoire can be compiled! This in itself could rival the size of the final release of the PRPG! (Theres a thought)
Now of course a book which is the size of our ol' monster manual will be fine too! ;)
I would not be at all surprised to see a book with more than 500 pages. 600 is not wholly out of the question.
We will take extra steps to ensure that the book has a good binding.
--Erik
Spliting it into two volumes seem to be the more sensible option. Probably a few $ more expensive but when it comes to stability and the option to carry only half of it with you, it's a good investment.
Spliting it into two volumes seem to be the more sensible option. Probably a few $ more expensive but when it comes to stability and the option to carry only half of it with you, it's a good investment.I would not be at all surprised to see a book with more than 500 pages. 600 is not wholly out of the question.
We will take extra steps to ensure that the book has a good binding.
--Erik
I would still prefer to see everything except the monsters in a single tome. Even when I'm not DMing, my primary need for a core rulebook is to reference classes, feats, equipment (particularly magic items), and spells. Now if magic items and their creation were in the same book as the rest of the character creation content that would be more useful.
But then when I'm DMing I'd be irked that I'd need a separate book just for the Character and NPC Wealth by Level tables.
Since You aren't going to arrive at one solution that makes everyone happy, I'll just weigh-in with my vote:
Put everything but monsters in one book.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Since You aren't going to arrive at one solution that makes everyone happy, I'll just weigh-in with my vote:
Put everything but monsters in one book.
This is the best option in my opinion. 1 book makes referencing easier (especially with cloth bookmarks) and then you only have to carry 1 book, which is much easier than 2. Yes there will be a lot of info that players won't need, but how many players use sections out of the DMG anyway (Magic Items & Prestige Classes spring to mind).
A full Monster Manual is much better as a second book. Players definately don't need this (unless they are looking to play Monstrous Races as PCs), so any monsters in the Core PFRPG Book are just a waste of space that could be taken up by more Paizo Awesomness™. One thing I do want to just say regarding this is that I hope when the time comes to release the MM, that you have a section in specific entries for playing that creature as PC **cough** Derhii **cough**. I like to play different character concepts and (providing you tidy up ECLS) this was one of the things I loveed about the 3.5 MMs.
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Spliting it into two volumes seem to be the more sensible option. Probably a few $ more expensive but when it comes to stability and the option to carry only half of it with you, it's a good investment.
You are under the assumption that the book would be split roughly in two like the DMG/ PHB. More likely it would be about 75-80% PHB. Much of the DMG content belongs is used by players. PrCs, Magic Items, Special Materials, a bunch of rules... all stuff players want, and half the time I don't even know why something is where it is. Shouldn't special materials be in the section with the equipment and description of masterwork items? No, it's buried somewhere in the DMG behind the magic items...
The number of times I've resorted to scouring the indexes of both the PHB and the DMG trying to find something... The older books had a unified index in the DMG at least.
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I'm looking forward to the all in one PHB/DMG. As has been said by the previous posters, there is alot of info in the DMG that is needed by the individual player. I also think that it will make it easer for the "New Gamer" to transition from player to GM if they already have the tools from the begining. The money saved is also a big plus.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Will one large volume really be that much cheaper than two smaller ones? Even after the 34% Amazon discount, Ptolus (670 pages plus extras) still cost me more than the three 4th Ed core books in the slip case (with a higher total page count), which makes me wonder how a 600+ Pathfinder RPG could possibly cost less than separate PFRG Players' and DM's guides.
Ptolus has more pages, has fancy schmancy cloth bookmarks, tons and tons of new art, and it had to subsidize Monte's writing for more than a year.
The final cost of the Pathfinder RPG will be nowhere near the final cost of the Ptolus book.
--Erik
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I would not be at all surprised to see a book with more than 500 pages. 600 is not wholly out of the question.
We will take extra steps to ensure that the book has a good binding.
--Erik
Awesome. Almost all of the teasers for PFRPG make me salivate and squirm with glee.
If the binding costs don't skyrocket into the stratosphere, please include (multiple) bound-in fabric bookmarks, as in the Ptolus book. It's a great touch and a very useful element in such a huge product.
Maybe we'll do a super-deluxe version or something. My current thinking is that that kind of doo-dad will add significantly to the cost, so I'm going to try to avoid it for the core book.
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The standard-size Post-It Flag available in all office supply stores is the ultimate D&D bookmark if you ask me. They're flexible and they don't damage the book, yet some how remain attached or are easily removable when you want them to be.
The standard-size Post-It Flag available in all office supply stores is the ultimate D&D bookmark if you ask me. They're flexible and they don't damage the book, yet some how remain attached or are easily removable when you want them to be.
And most of us work at companies where we can "acquire" a small number of these for home use without being fired. However, I wish to warn some of you YMMV.
They are also available at non-prohibitive costs at Staples, Office Depot and other locations without the fear of committing felonies.
Mmmmmhhh, super-deluxe version... gaaaaahhhh... *drools*
Having just come from the Discipline Skill thread, seeing Your reaction to Erik's comment makes me want my PfRPG with a black leather binding...
Todd has failed his Discipline check. Lucky for me, I'm using a desktop. *whistles innocently*when I saw the title of this thread I imagined Seoni in black leather with whips... :(Oh... my.... *drops laptop*
I love these boards! |\~_^/|
*rotrl* ;)
Mmmmmhh... Seoni in black leather with whips... gaaaaaahhh... *drools*
Fixed that for you.