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*steps on the soapbox with his +5 Large Steel Shield of Anti-Flame War in front of him*
My goodness, all this animosity and anger over such a wonderful pastime. It reminds me of when 2e went to 3e, you think there are angry people now? You should have seen it back then.
But seriously, I can see why some people are so vehemently against 4e for a number of reasons (the main one in my opinion is not wanting to spend the $$$$ on the books!) but why discourage and/or slam the game?? My little sister (all of 14!) wasn't really that into 3.x (she tried, but after a little bit, it was too much) but I got her the 4.0 PHB (having heard it was a little simpler to start, don't judge me :P) and now she is in a weekly game with her friends.
See, there are some positives!!
Simply put, if you don't like/don't want to try 4e, then don't. I personally have no intention of buying any 4e books beyond a PHB for myself, because (and I read this somewhere else) there are still things in 3.x I haven't even done yet!!!

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I hereby declare victory in the Edition Wars. Henceforth, all parties shall agree that 2e, as modified by the Skills and Power and Combat and Tactics options, is the One True Edition.
LONG LIVE 2E!!!!
P.S. - No, you can't play a bladesinger or anything else from the Complete Book of Elves. Get the hell out of here if you're going to talk crap like that.

bugleyman |

Kruelaid wrote:Okay I'll shut up.
It's just I don't see the point in trying to correct CWM. Not gonna happen.
bugleyman wrote:Oh yes, he's ablsolutely right. There is too much arguing (but he bears no responsibility for the arguing whatsoever!). We need a crackdown.
Perhaps because, at least in this case, he doesn't require correction?
Thank you for making yourself look far more ridiculous than I ever could.

AZRogue |

I hereby declare victory in the Edition Wars. Henceforth, all parties shall agree that 2e, as modified by the Skills and Power and Combat and Tactics options, is the One True Edition.
LONG LIVE 2E!!!!
Wiser words have never been said. 2E Skills and Powers is, was, and will remain the finest edition of DnD ever made. How many points for a severe Phobia of water again?

FabesMinis |

I hereby declare victory in the Edition Wars. Henceforth, all parties shall agree that 2e, as modified by the Skills and Power and Combat and Tactics options, is the One True Edition.
LONG LIVE 2E!!!!
P.S. - No, you can't play a bladesinger or anything else from the Complete Book of Elves. Get the hell out of here if you're going to talk crap like that.
But... but... *pulls sad face* I wanna do an elven mindmeld and get bonuses to hit in the next combat.
Oh well, are we also allowing Spells and Magic? Can I play a channeling Song Mage?

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I hereby declare victory in the Edition Wars. Henceforth, all parties shall agree that 2e, as modified by the Skills and Power and Combat and Tactics options, is the One True Edition.
LONG LIVE 2E!!!!
P.S. - No, you can't play a bladesinger or anything else from the Complete Book of Elves. Get the hell out of here if you're going to talk crap like that.
Awesome.

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I hereby declare victory in the Edition Wars. Henceforth, all parties shall agree that 2e, as modified by the Skills and Power and Combat and Tactics options, is the One True Edition.
LONG LIVE 2E!!!!
P.S. - No, you can't play a bladesinger or anything else from the Complete Book of Elves. Get the hell out of here if you're going to talk crap like that.
So, let's roll a new character ? Who gets to be the DM ?

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Okay. Since I skipped 2e altogether is there something that will help me understand?
It was not so bad IMHo, though many players did not like it.
Basically, you had character creations points that you could expand to get either your standard race powers, or your standard class powers, or some weird unkonwn thingies.
Not bad in itself, but I feel the execution was a bit ... cumbersome. In fact, I only met once someone willing to play it with me (even at its prime time).
Some weird stuff too : i remember a power for humans : Bony : your bones are tougher than the norm : gain +2 to AC or something close.
Now about the thread ... you look like a decent guy, but you are taking the bait way too much. honestly ? you're starting to get as funny as Razz.
Also do not forget the fact that by defending 4e here so outwardly, you set yourself as a prime target for the revenge that everyone else wants after the crap they had to endure on (you know which) and plenty other forums.
Take a break, rest yourself, enjoy yourself with 4e and your group, and come back after a short while. We'll miss you if you don't come back.

AlexBlake |

Okay. Since I skipped 2e altogether is there something that will help me understand?
Complete Book of Elves? Take Warblade from Bo9S. Make several other "Kits" (like Paragon Paths, but from 1st level) for various combos on approximately that power level. Say "only for elves" and print.
And once it saw print, nobody wanted to play anything other than elves. There just wasn't any point.
It was a quantum leap ahead in destroying 2e's game balance.

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crosswiredmind wrote:Okay. Since I skipped 2e altogether is there something that will help me understand?Complete Book of Elves? Take Warblade from Bo9S. Make several other "Kits" (like Paragon Paths, but from 1st level) for various combos on approximately that power level. Say "only for elves" and print.
And once it saw print, nobody wanted to play anything other than elves. There just wasn't any point.
It was a quantum leap ahead in destroying 2e's game balance.
Wow - and I thought wood elves were cheesy.

bugleyman |

Stereofm wrote:Take a break, rest yourself, enjoy yourself with 4e and your group, and come back after a short while. We'll miss you if you don't come back.I hear ya. Trouble is this, for all of the trolls this is the best place on the net for solid discussion. I am just going to try and chill.
Make no mistake...as dramatic as it sounds, I believe the Paizo boards are at a crossroads. If people can't learn to self-moderate and Paizo itself doesn't step in, these boards will become all but useless. I've seen it happen all too often.
A few people keep insisting that they be allowed to behave in any anti-social manner this wish, or they're being "censored." Sorry, but that isn't the way things work in civil society. If Paizo won't put a stop to it, we should. If people are told repeatedly and in no uncertain terms that being rude and inconsiderate are not acceptable, they'll get the hint. No doubt they'll complain about how their rights are being violated and the thought police are right around the corner, but eventually they'll stop.

David Marks |

Wow - and I thought wood elves were cheesy.
I always liked making my Fighter's unable to use rods, staffs, or wands. Hell, skipping out on scrolls freed up some points too. Good for extra weapon mastery/d12 HD.
My Wizards of course, were always afraid of bathing, frightened mundane animals, and left backwards footprints. Some got lost at crossroads as well. Of course, most wore armor, wielded swords, and had extra caster levels.
We're not even going to talk about my Lava Elves. Ahem. :P

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Okay. Since I skipped 2e altogether is there something that will help me understand?
NOTE: The remark below looks innocent enough but is very clearly troll bait.
I skipped 2e too ... I couldn't afford to upgrade to a new edition at that time. I stopped playing entirely for some years but got back into it a couple years ago after my FLGS assured me 4e was 'at least 5 years away'.
;-)

The Jade |

I'm afraid I can't stand by and watch 2E claim superiority. The Fate of Istus module explained away my monk and assassin classes. Curse it! First edition reigns supreme (and we didn't have those horrid binder monstrous manuals)!
"But... I rather liked those bind--"
"STFU! You hear me! The binders were ridiculous and cheap!"
"Well, they allowed me to customize my array of threats for each upcoming ga--"
"DO I HAVE TO KILL YOU DEAD WHERE YOU STAND YOU THAC0 LOVING FREAK?! DO I?! DOOOOOOOOOO I?!"
I demand a new flame war between the merits of 1st versus 2nd edition. If you never played first and second edition, stay out of the conversation or I'll run you through that Puppet Master module.

The Jade |

The Jade wrote:How will we roll to see who goes first?*fumbles Diplomacy check for humor subtlety*
I don't know if I wouldn't like to go last instead on this one... call it an instinct of self-preservation of private areas, I guess.
;-)
The sight of sloppy seconds can be an accidental emetic. The sight of sloppy sixty-seconds"? That's enough to make Cthulhu cry for his mommy. You definitely don't want last, but, if there's no stopping you, sir, at least take this.
::Hands the Red Death a mop and pail::

The Jade |

Monster Manual Binders. Pure unadulterated WIN. I loved those things. And I miss my kits. <sniff> THAC0 wasn't so hard.
Oh yeah?!
::Shakes his fist righteously::
This concludes our flame war. Resfreshments will be served in the lobby.
Edit:
Sorry Fabes... I erased and rewrote my post by accident.
His Pimms comment followed this one originally.

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"Nothing is over, nothing. You can't just shut it off. They drew first blood, not me. They drew first blood." - Sylvester Stallone in First Blood -
CWM - You will never detante the edition war, because it is a curse that Wizards brought upon themselves. Everything has karma, and for all the profit expected, there will be much loss. The full toll in lost customers who fully swear-off fourth edition will never end, the real hurt caused by this rift in the gaming community has not yet fully been felt, and while profits may be counted - the long term loss for Wizards is yet uncounted.
All - Enworld makes a decree to stop a discussion on a discussion board? The Wizards site has for a half year prevented anyone for speaking up against fourth edition. This type of surpression should not, and must not go unnoticed. This gaming community must continue to define itself in contrast to the pathetic view certain companies have of the gaming community. We are not sheep. We will not go gently into this attempt to cast Silence 4000 mile radius upon this community.
This is not anger, and this is not fear of change. This is, at its core, a belief that the stewards of our game cannot and should not reconcept and recreate our traditions and 30+ years of gaming history and community from Salvicsek's Ivory Tower! D&D is not, and should not be video game-like, and it is not Star Wars minis. They have created a new and different game, and have $old it as dungeons and dragons - and no one should ever ask the gaming community to be silent on this matter!
Many of us stand with PAIZO, who has taken on the mantle of 3.5, and now continues the true traditions of Dungeons and Dragons. Go ahead, CWM, create another hundred posts about fourth edition and fill up all the server space with your blind allegience to the "rights" of corporations to do as they please. AND LOTS OF OTHER GOOD STUFF!
Yes. Thank You! QFT! I doubt if it will do any good; but keep fighting the good fight!

Keryth |

Well, my take on it is this. The 4e/3e debate is ragins, and will continue to do so for some time. Why? Because of the marketing strategy that WOTC took of trying to convince people that 3.0/3.5 was so flawed and broken that they had to trash the whole system in favor of 4.0 to bring back the fun.
My problem with this strategy is, if 3.0/3.5 was so unfun, then why have we been playing it all this time? There's plenty of other systems out there.
As for banning the debate, I think thats bad. There is nothing wrong with people defending what they believe in, and in fact, it should be encouraged that people do.

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crosswiredmind wrote:Stereofm wrote:Take a break, rest yourself, enjoy yourself with 4e and your group, and come back after a short while. We'll miss you if you don't come back.I hear ya. Trouble is this, for all of the trolls this is the best place on the net for solid discussion. I am just going to try and chill.Make no mistake...as dramatic as it sounds, I believe the Paizo boards are at a crossroads. If people can't learn to self-moderate and Paizo itself doesn't step in, these boards will become all but useless. I've seen it happen all too often.
A few people keep insisting that they be allowed to behave in any anti-social manner this wish, or they're being "censored." Sorry, but that isn't the way things work in civil society. If Paizo won't put a stop to it, we should. If people are told repeatedly and in no uncertain terms that being rude and inconsiderate are not acceptable, they'll get the hint. No doubt they'll complain about how their rights are being violated and the thought police are right around the corner, but eventually they'll stop.
It's going to be okay. Close your eyes and count to 10. This too will pass.

AZRogue |

My problem with this strategy is, if 3.0/3.5 was so unfun, then why have we been playing it all this time? There's plenty of other systems out there.
It was appropriate in some cases. I, personally, stopped playing DnD because of 3.5--my whole gaming group did. When we heard that 4E was going to be a radical overhaul, that's when we got interested. So not all of us played 3E all this time.

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Yes. Thank You! QFT! I doubt if it will do any good; but keep fighting the good fight!
Wow. If that's the good fight, I'd hate to see the bad fight.
But thanks for taking the thread off the high road (or maybe the happier friendly community road). Your partisanship and blind dedication to hostility are appreciated.

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He'll do it any thread as well - he's not picky.
Now, what kind of pie?
Cool, does this mean that I am getting a reputation? Excellent. I am trying to emulate Sebastian. Good to see that I am making an impact. Perhaps someday I will achieve the noteriety of Razz. It's something to shoot for....

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dmchucky69 wrote:Yes. Thank You! QFT! I doubt if it will do any good; but keep fighting the good fight!
Wow. If that's the good fight, I'd hate to see the bad fight.
But thanks for taking the thread off the high road (or maybe the happier friendly community road). Your partisanship and blind dedication to hostility are appreciated.
You are most welcome! ;)

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I've suppressed a number of posts by XxAnthraxusxX, who is by his own admission, "yanking chains" for the fun of it. I'd like to thank the rest of you for not taking his bait.
Crosswiredmind, you've been awfully close to being suppressed yourself over the last couple of weeks—as many have said, you are, in your own way, as responsible for the level of noise and fury on the paizo boards as anyone else. You've turned way too many threads into argumentative messes full of back-and-forth sniping, and creating threads with titles like "Abandoning the fans?" and "4e board - unwelcome?" is, quite literally, *asking* for people to argue with you.
Knock it off.