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enworld took a huge step up in the moderation of its boards ...
So for the next month, to allow people to get used to trying things out, no edition wars threads please. No threads where you justify what you hate about 3e/4e and why 4e/3e is so much better. Especially no threads about "I think that the people (who don't think like me) think (this straw man) and I want to talk to them about it". No advocacy threads where you try to convince "the other side".
That sounds like a great idea to me.
Glad to hear it!
On July 4th I'm giving a rant on the subject of Gamer Elitism on Atomic Array, a new podcast by Ed Healy and yours truly. Should be worth a laugh.
I'm happy to hear that. I think that the dead horse has been jellified, time to go actually play a game or something.
Seriously, everyone has a game they like, go play! What you doing sitting on the boards arguing with folks half a world away?
enworld took a huge step up in the moderation of its boards ...
So for the next month, to allow people to get used to trying things out, no edition wars threads please. No threads where you justify what you hate about 3e/4e and why 4e/3e is so much better. Especially no threads about "I think that the people (who don't think like me) think (this straw man) and I want to talk to them about it". No advocacy threads where you try to convince "the other side".That sounds like a great idea to me.
Honestly CWM I'm not sure why your so gung-ho on this. Most of the players that are not interested in being involved in 4E are keeping it to threads that invite that sort of debate.
With just a handful of exceptions threads devoted to topics involved in converting things to 4E or discussing rules on 4E are being left alone.
A lot of the posters that are in the 3E vs. 4E are being pretty polite about it at the moment and its generally pretty civil. I kind of get the feeling that you feel that you must battle every misconception or complaint with 4E with every last ounce of your strength and its driving you half insane doing so. The reality is you don't have to fight this fight if you don't want to. You can just keep it to the topics that don't involve debate on 4E vs. 3E and hopefully have a good time. Better yet you can start up some more threads like that.
Personally I've found the debate to be pretty enlightening and its definitly engaged me and made me think about what it is that I like or don't like in the various editions. I'm learning a bit about game design theory while debating and can honestly say that I'm generally having a great time doing it.
Maybe even more interesting for me is getting some feel for how the two editions differ. I'll be doing a lot of conversions during the life of the edition and the debate helps to inform that.
I don't really see the value in muzzling all debate on this topic. Its just not out of hand at this point. Maybe it was in the first few days after the release but things have substantially calmed down and taken on a more rational and civil feel.
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I don't really see the value in muzzling all debate on this topic. Its just not out of hand at this point. Maybe it was in the first few days after the release but things have substantially calmed down and taken on a more rational and civil feel.
Because debate brings free-thinking. Free thinking breeds discord. Discord breeds anarchy.
Then what!? 4E causes the downfall of civilization as we know it!
Then what!? 4E causes the downfall of civilization as we know it!
Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!
Maybe it was in the first few days after the release but things have substantially calmed down and taken on a more rational and civil feel.Did you see the post by Razz?
~You're right, Razz is a definite indication of the general atmosphere around here.~
Maybe it was in the first few days after the release but things have substantially calmed down and taken on a more rational and civil feel.Did you see the post by Razz?
Sure - but he basically quoted verbatim something obvously done to be funny in KQ. This is sort of what I mean by your seeing red. Yeah Razz can be annoying but that post of his was not, or not really. Particularly because he is just so over the top.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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~You're right, Razz is a definite indication of the general atmosphere around here.~Maybe it was in the first few days after the release but things have substantially calmed down and taken on a more rational and civil feel.Did you see the post by Razz?
He's the canary in the coal mine! ;-)
~You know, sometimes I'm going to post a rant about how much I hate 4E and Razz just beats me to it by a few seconds!~
~ <===irony key
Maybe it was in the first few days after the release but things have substantially calmed down and taken on a more rational and civil feel.Did you see the post by Razz?
Yes. But it's RAZZ. So you pretty much know when he speaks what's going to come out. I mean I'm not a big 4E booster and I get tired of his tirades.
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Maybe it was in the first few days after the release but things have substantially calmed down and taken on a more rational and civil feel.Did you see the post by Razz?
Just ignore him. Almost everyone else here does when he gets on one of his 4e rants. And actually, that one was fairly tame and non-inflammatory… for Razz. No, I’m not making excuses for him, I just think that like everyone else, he is untitled to his opinion as long as he doesn’t go out of his way to make attacks on anyone (even if that opinion generally comes across as over the top to the point of ridiculousness).
What you are advocating effectively shuts down discussion as well as argument. I have seen a number of “review” type threads where people have said “this is what I like about 4e, this is what I don’t like.” Sometimes that “don’t like” stuff is written in fairly strong terms … should those sort of threads be banned? Where do you draw the line?
Likewise threads on the PFRPG, should they be shut down if comparisons are made with 3e or 4e?
I do not think that the situation on these boards is dire enough to shut down debate, despite a few oddballs.
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"Nothing is over, nothing. You can't just shut it off. They drew first blood, not me. They drew first blood." - Sylvester Stallone in First Blood -
CWM - You will never detante the edition war, because it is a curse that Wizards brought upon themselves. Everything has karma, and for all the profit expected, there will be much loss. The full toll in lost customers who fully swear-off fourth edition will never end, the real hurt caused by this rift in the gaming community has not yet fully been felt, and while profits may be counted - the long term loss for Wizards is yet uncounted.
All - Enworld makes a decree to stop a discussion on a discussion board? The Wizards site has for a half year prevented anyone for speaking up against fourth edition. This type of surpression should not, and must not go unnoticed. This gaming community must continue to define itself in contrast to the pathetic view certain companies have of the gaming community. We are not sheep. We will not go gently into this attempt to cast Silence 4000 mile radius upon this community.
This is not anger, and this is not fear of change. This is, at its core, a belief that the stewards of our game cannot and should not reconcept and recreate our traditions and 30+ years of gaming history and community from Salvicsek's Ivory Tower! D&D is not, and should not be video game-like, and it is not Star Wars minis. They have created a new and different game, and have $old it as dungeons and dragons - and no one should ever ask the gaming community to be silent on this matter!
Many of us stand with PAIZO, who has taken on the mantle of 3.5, and now continues the true traditions of Dungeons and Dragons. Go ahead, CWM, create another hundred posts about fourth edition and fill up all the server space with your blind allegience to the "rights" of corporations to do as they please. But I say to you plainly, never, NEVER suggest that there is anything good about Wizards refusal to allow negative 4e discussion on their boards, and never, NEVER try to turn the PAIZO messageboards into a valley of sheep who should be silent about their disdain for what has been done to our game.
We are not Enworld, and PAIZO is most distinctly NOT wotc. The edition war you seek to end was the catalyst for Pathfinder RPG. And the publishers of your beloved 4e are the same ones who have threatened to try to monopolize this industry by not simply continuing the OGL in 4e, and have delayed the delivery of the GSL!
CWM - This is about something important. This is about the game we love. I'm sincerely glad you love it too. Let's agree to disagree, but do not sublty silence the voices of those who have just now begun to have a voice, after so many years of poor treatment by wotc. For the first time, many consumers are taking a genuine look at 3pp content without the former "guilt" associated with it not being 100% official content. A look at 4e has told us that there can never be 100% official content anymore when 3pps, such as PAIZO, are writing better, higher quality content than the self proclaimed owners of the brand. The game of dungeons and dragons belongs to GMs and players, not subsidiaries of corporate entities.
The point is, Enworld is ethically wrong to have done this. I disagree with your inference that you would like this to happen at PAIZO. And I will voice opposition to this form of surpression in every form. This surpression is one facet of everything that is bad about wotc.
The gaming community deserves better.
CWM - This community chooses PAIZO for their openness, even to the point of including someone as crosswired as you. So please, don't try to call for a victory in this edition war, thinkly veiled as a call for peace and detente.
MORE CENSORSHIP!
ELIMINATE DEBATE!
TWO GAMES ENTER!
ONE GAME LEAVES!
Okay I'll shut up.
It's just I don't see the point in trying to correct CWM. Not gonna happen.
TWO GAMES ENTER!
ONE GAME LEAVES!
ROFL
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Pax - This is not about victory. This is not about debate. 4e is a freaking game! It is a product. If you want it then buy it. If you do not want it then do not buy it.
It really is that simple.
Don't complain just because it exists. If you do not like it then do not buy it.
Now - people want to talk about 4e. If you do not want to play the game why waste a single breath on it? It is a product from a company. This is not a matter of life and death. It is not worth making this about competing camps of supporters knocking the other camp because they spent money on a friggin game!
The way you can let WotC know that you do not like what they have done to D&D is to not buy it. Buy other games. Vote with your feet.
I am sick and tired of being told my choice of game is somehow causing harm to the gaming world. I bought some books for a game I want to play. I am here to talk about that game. If you disagree with my choice you have no right to tell me I should not have made it.
But by all means - fill the forum about that game with all manner of contentious jibber jabber. If enough of you shout at us long enough we might just ... what? Not play 4e? Nope. That ain't gonna happen. So why bother? You want to justify your choice to play 3e? Why? No one is questioning that choice.
You have your game and I have mine. Why you feel the need to bother me (or anyone else that wants to play 4e) about it is beyond my comprehension.
enworld took a huge step up in the moderation of its boards ...
So for the next month, to allow people to get used to trying things out, no edition wars threads please. No threads where you justify what you hate about 3e/4e and why 4e/3e is so much better. Especially no threads about "I think that the people (who don't think like me) think (this straw man) and I want to talk to them about it". No advocacy threads where you try to convince "the other side".That sounds like a great idea to me.
Horrible idea- it's like putting up a "Peace Wall" between the two sides- didn't work in the real world, not gonna work here. it just partitions the debate and forces the two sides to stalk off and glare at each other. Better to have a healthy, grown up debate and have it out there- I know it's beyond some folks, but that's not reason enough to kill the whole enterprise.
"Nothing is over, nothing. You can't just shut it off. They drew first blood, not me. They drew first blood." - Sylvester Stallone in First Blood -
and much, much more...
Oh my!
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Better to have a healthy, grown up debate and have it out there- I know it's beyond some folks, but that's not reason enough to kill the whole enterprise.
Have what out? It all comes down to preference. I like X and you like Y. You may not understand why I like X, then again you do not have to understand. I may not understand why you like Y, but I do not need to understand. What is there to debate. Why is there a need for a debate?
Is it so awful that some people actually want to play 4e? I do not see the choice to stay with 3e to be a bad thing.
So why do the folks that choose to play 3e feel the need to debate the people that choose to play 4e? And why do the people that chose to play 4e need to debate the people that chose 3e?
What is the point?
This is not anger, and this is not fear of change. This is, at its core, a belief that the stewards of our game cannot and should not reconcept and recreate our traditions and 30+ years of gaming history and community from Salvicsek's Ivory Tower! D&D is not, and should not be video game-like, and it is not Star Wars minis. They have created a new and different game, and have $old it as dungeons and dragons - and no one should ever ask the gaming community to be silent on this matter!Many of us stand with PAIZO, who has taken on the mantle of 3.5, and now continues the true traditions of Dungeons and Dragons.
3 points:
1. As to your censorship argument, I agree to a point. People should always be free to debate topics, and they it should be expected that some people may debate with more...fervor...than others. Unfortunately, some people have chosen not to debate, but simply to harass. The internet has provided a place where people from all of the world can gather to debate and share their thoughts and ideas, but the promise of anonimity (not sure if I got that one right) had meant that certain people have felt free to be total goofs. Moderators trying to prevent that may end up with no choice but to shut down whole forums to try to settle the issue. Even here, threads that start with people asking for clarifications on rules get hijacked by posters stating how 4e sucks. As others have stated...if you don't like it, don't play it.
2. I love the fact that you are applauding Paizo for continuing the use of 3.5 and how that 'continues the true traditions of Dungeons and Dragons'. The funny part is, I am sure that there are a lot of people out there that still play earlier versions of D&D who see 3.5 as an upstart that changed what D&D is supposed to be about.
3. And I think this has already been echoed above...but Dude..it's just a game. That's all it is...you're kind of scaring me a bit. Don't want to find out you've been wandering the sewers looking for monsters. (Tom Hanks...Mazes and Monsters...high five?...anyone?...ok, never mind)
Bottom line? I play both versions. Do I think they are different? Yes. Do I think one is better than the other? No. Hopefully that doesn't make me the enemy of either side. I just want to be able to play the game I choose. I want to be able to come to these boards and peruse the 4th edition forum for interesting topics on 4e, and the 3e forums for intersting topics on 3e. I am totally over the war between the versions.
Okay I'll shut up.
It's just I don't see the point in trying to correct CWM. Not gonna happen.
Perhaps because, at least in this case, he doesn't require correction?
All long-lived message boards I've ever seen on the Internet that managed to remain platforms for reasonable discussion had one factor in common: Quality moderation. Self-moderation, as far as I can see, is a nice idea that simply is not viable past a certain size. In my opinion Paizo has reached (or will very soon reach) that size.
"Nothing is over, nothing. You can't just shut it off. They drew first blood, not me. They drew first blood." - Sylvester Stallone in First Blood -
CWM - You will never detante the edition war, because it is a curse that Wizards brought upon themselves. Everything has karma, and for all the profit expected, there will be much loss. The full toll in lost customers who fully swear-off fourth edition will never end, the real hurt caused by this rift in the gaming community has not yet fully been felt, and while profits may be counted - the long term loss for Wizards is yet uncounted.
All - Enworld makes a decree to stop a discussion on a discussion board? The Wizards site has for a half year prevented anyone for speaking up against fourth edition. This type of surpression should not, and must not go unnoticed. This gaming community must continue to define itself in contrast to the pathetic view certain companies have of the gaming community. We are not sheep. We will not go gently into this attempt to cast Silence 4000 mile radius upon this community.
This is not anger, and this is not fear of change. This is, at its core, a belief that the stewards of our game cannot and should not reconcept and recreate our traditions and 30+ years of gaming history and community from Salvicsek's Ivory Tower! D&D is not, and should not be video game-like, and it is not Star Wars minis. They have created a new and different game, and have $old it as dungeons and dragons - and no one should ever ask the gaming community to be silent on this matter!
Many of us stand with PAIZO, who has taken on the mantle of 3.5, and now continues the true traditions of Dungeons and Dragons. Go ahead, CWM, create another hundred posts about fourth edition and fill up all the server space with your blind allegience to the "rights" of corporations to do as they please. But I say to you plainly, never, NEVER suggest that there is anything good about Wizards refusal to allow negative 4e discussion on their boards, and never, NEVER try...
Wow...thats one heck of a rant.
You sound like the old guys that stand on street corners loudly trying to persuade people to find The Lord Jesus Christ while passers by pretend they can't hear or see him while quickening their step.
You've declared yourself to be a foot soldier in a war that doesn't actually exist.
Director of Brand Strategy
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ENworld's policy of censorship and over-moderation is the primary reason I don't use the site. It's never a good thing for a messageboard to take on such a parental role, especially when the guidelines for what constitutes an "edition war" post are so subjective. My experience on ENworld is that if a moderator doesn't agree with you, you run the risk of getting booted. Not a very welcoming community.
You know, CWM, nobody is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to read anti-4E threads, neither.
CWM, I'm going Pathfinder and I do agree that "4e sux" posts can be annoying. I read the 4e posts every so often and see those and cringe a little.
But I also see posts where people have played and/or bought the books and they still don't like the new edition. They seem to get quite a bit of crap thrown their way too.
I'd like to be able to read both the positive and the negative 4e threads without the pro- or con-4e jumping on them (aka "have a discussion").
I've been to three county fairs and a goat @*#&ing and I have never heard a thing as dumb as these edition debates.
In fact I know realize EXACTLY how dnd is like WoW, they both fill internet forums with drivel.
You know, CWM, nobody is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to read anti-4E threads, neither.
I can't speak for CWM, but the problem for me isn't the anti-4E threads, it is the rampant anti-4E threadcraps in otherwise unrelated 4E threads.
Yeah, well 4E gave my grandma cancer. Oh, and I hear that Mike Mearls guy eats babies.
I hear that Mike Mearls guy eats babies.
Whole. And live.
I hear that Mike Mearls guy eats babies.Whole. And live.
Huh... well, I still enjoy some of the adventures and supplements he wrote.
Now hand me those tongs, I got a squirmy one here.
I hear that Mike Mearls guy eats babies.Whole. And live.
Yeah, well Jason Buhlman eats live kittens. Think of the kittens!
Yeah, well Jason Buhlman eats live kittens. Think of the kittens!I hear that Mike Mearls guy eats babies.Whole. And live.
THATS UNEXCEPTABLE!!!!
Live babies are one thing, but LIVE KITTENS!!
Buhlman should at least have the decency to kill them first, and saute them with onions.
OH THE HUMANITY!!!
Now please pass me the barbecue sauce?
Upon reflection it seems like my earlier post advocates censorship, which is why I should never post before bed (or lose track of time and stay up too late).
While personally I find the whole 'edition war' ludicrous now that both sides have a viable alternative, I DO NOT advocate over moderation and or censorship. What I was trying to convey is that everyone should just let it be (both sides). These boards are a community that for the most part self-moderates. Although there are a few partisans of either game who seem to take affront at the other's existence, the vitriol level has dropped markedly in just the one week of 4e's release.
To the partisans: You are never going to convert the other side. Making rash rants about Company A or Game B is just wasting time you could spend actually GAMING, or maybe, hey taking a walk outside, checking out a summer blockbuster, trying to find a mate, etc. etc.
Leave the polemical screeds to the US election message boards for the summer and CHILL OUT!
/rant
Upon reflection it seems like my earlier post advocates censorship, which is why I should never post before bed (or lose track of time and stay up too late).
Censorship! Gadzooks! Fie upon thee!
Do you need a good lawyer?
Okay I'll shut up.
It's just I don't see the point in trying to correct CWM. Not gonna happen.
Perhaps because, at least in this case, he doesn't require correction?
Oh yes, he's ablsolutely right. There is too much arguing (but he bears no responsibility for the arguing whatsoever!). We need a crackdown.
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CWM - I would just like to point out, that almost every time I have posted a reason why I don't like a given rule in 4e, you have been right there trying to point out that it's virtually the same rule. Which sometimes comes across as trying to say I am somehow wrong (or shall we say "misguided") for not liking the rule in question...
You say "You have your game, We have ours. Let's be done with it!", yet you respond to almost every post that has something negative to say about 4e (often times regardless of what this or that poster saw as negative about the game)...
My point is, we are all guilty of "debating" the merits of 4e/3e (obviously, myself included)...
Censorship is not the answer...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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If you disagree with my choice you have no right to tell me I should not have made it.
Actually, he does. He has a right to tell you that you shouldn't have made that choice and he has a right to tell you in the most over-the-top way. He has a right to make himself sound dumb when he tells you and ironically convince us all that his opinion isn't worth listening to. These are his rights. Of course, not listening to his opinion or responding back in a similar tone is your right.
Someone from Paizo has already asked us to knock off the requests for more moderation. They've chosen low level of moderation that only steps in when someone says something along the lines of "Mike Mearls eats babies". I respect that level of moderation and consider it necessary for the nurturing of discussion and debate.
Maybe we can start an entire forum where we just sing happy songs and hug too. That'd be swell.
enworld took a huge step up in the moderation of its boards ...
So for the next month, to allow people to get used to trying things out, no edition wars threads please. No threads where you justify what you hate about 3e/4e and why 4e/3e is so much better. Especially no threads about "I think that the people (who don't think like me) think (this straw man) and I want to talk to them about it". No advocacy threads where you try to convince "the other side".That sounds like a great idea to me.
Frankly, I came here because the community seems a lot more mature than the one on the WotC forums. Hopefully we don't require that sort of babysitting.
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Okay I'll shut up.
It's just I don't see the point in trying to correct CWM. Not gonna happen.
Oh yes, he's ablsolutely right. There is too much arguing (but he bears no responsibility for the arguing whatsoever!). We need a crackdown.
Perhaps because, at least in this case, he doesn't require correction?
Oh, I do bear responsibility for this. Far too often I have rushed to defend my choice. I agree that I have contributed to some fairly contentious threads.
I also know that some of those threads went from contention to understanding.
Does anyone in the Pathfinder RPG forum ever need to rush to the defend against thread crapping? Are people making unwarranted emotional attacks of Pathfinder? I have not read any and there should not be any.
That is my point. I get that the mere existence of 4e is an abomination in the eyes of some folks here. Too damn bad. They need to get over it. And they need to stop crapping on our threads.
Does anyone in the Pathfinder RPG forum ever need to rush to the defend against thread crapping? Are people making unwarranted emotional attacks of Pathfinder? I have not read any and there should not be any.
Yes, people have crapped all over PFRPG threads. No, nobody NEEDS to rush to defend against it.
Just say no to censorship!