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I just re-read the entries on Cheliax and Asmodeus in the Gazetteer. I think it would be inaccurate to refer to it as a "cult" - it's too out in the open. Nobody is whispering invitations to anyone, they have big churches and public ceremonies. But it doesn't seem to be the religion of the masses either. It seems to mostly be limited to nobles and the upper classes with lower and middle class folk joining as means of gaining power. When I first posted I was kinda' thinking that everyone in Cheliax was an Asmodeus follower.
Still, I think a LE religion can work, and can be a mass religion. The trick to really making "Might makes right" and "The strong rule the weak" to work as a philosophy is getting the weak to buy into it. It's too much work to always have to oppress them; they rebel and revolt or escape, etc. etc. But if they believe this is the best system too, they'll climb right onto the sacrificial alter for you.
I think the two key factors are:
1) The weak have to believe that being ruled - and even oppressed - by the strong is better than what it would be like without the strong. Fear of chaos, famine, raiders (be they Vikings, goblins or terrorists) makes them grateful for the strong. This is one of the foundations of feudalism - loyalty for protection. So those in power can oppress, but the weak have to believe that there is some kind of a system and that if they follow the rules they can avoid most of the oppression, or that "bad people" and "traitors" will be punished, but not them. There has to be predictability and order.
2) The weak have to have some hope that they might be able to move up in the world and not always be the bottom rung on the ladder. They need to believe that, somehow, they might be able to become one of the strong someday. So there need to be openings in hierarchies like the military and the clergy and the bureaucracy, at least to mid levels. That's why bureaucrats can be such a-holes; they were nobodies who got a small taste of power and now want to enjoy it. They can be meaner and nastier than those who've been in power their whole life. And until that glorious day when you go from a nobody to a somebody, at least you can take out your wrath/flex your non-existent power women, children, stray dogs, slaves, criminals, non-citizen foreigners, imps.
So the worship of Asmodeus may not have been accepted by the masses yet, but given a little time and some good PR and it could be.
I see the American government, media, evangelical hucksters, War on drugs, and military industrial complex as Lawful Evil. That is an opinion, and not an invitation for outraged people to flame me.
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I see the American government, media, evangelical hucksters, War on drugs, and military industrial complex as Lawful Evil. That is an opinion, and not an invitation for outraged people to flame me.
Well I'm not going to flame you. I don't agree but I wont flame you.
Regardless, a word of caution, though - as soon as you post personal feelings towards politics - especially in a negative way - you are inviting outraged people to flame you. Posting such views derogatorally will no doubt bring outrage from people who passionately or patriotically feel otherwise or support the causes you slighted.
Its not dissimilar to someone coming on here and saying that they don't like blacks, or jews, or gays, or vulcans, or wookies.
Posting negative political views of any kind invites it whether you want it to or not.
That all being said - I think we've come to a point when real-world political comments need to fade to the background of this thread, as none of the aspects of your post have anything to do with Asmodeus.
Robert
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I see the American government, media, evangelical hucksters, War on drugs, and military industrial complex as Lawful Evil. That is an opinion, and not an invitation for outraged people to flame me.
I also disagree, but I'm not going to flame you. Furthermore, what in the world does this contribute to the discussion about Asmodeus and Cheliax? There's no analog to the devil-binding, human-sacrificing, Asmodean faith anywhere in the real world.
Simply that a Lawful Evil state would not refer to itself as such. Each action would be "To bring democracy to the Middle East" "In the interests of national security" "For the children" "To preserve our standard of living" "To keep South East Asia free from communism" and "To protect our business interests."
Cue: defoliants, genocide, disastrous military buildup, realpolitik, aggressive invasions, internment camps, House Un-American Activities Commissions, Thirty year sentences for smoking dope, putting asthmatics in chronic pain, imprisoning millions of people, carpet bombing, building prosthetic limbs for your kids, demonisation of anyone who lives near oil, stockpiling more nukes than are needed to melt the Earth's crust, and pissing away the planet.
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Gonna have to repeat Robert Brambley's post and mention that there's probably another forum towards the end of the list more appropriate for this potentiallydefinitely explosive line of discussion which will most likely end up taking the thread so far off topic it'll never find its way back.
Discussions are a socio-cultural phenomenom and therefore constantly changing and evolving. ;)
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Simply that a Lawful Evil state would not refer to itself as such. Each action would be "To bring democracy to the Middle East" "In the interests of national security" "For the children" "To preserve our standard of living" "To keep South East Asia free from communism" and "To protect our business interests."
Cue: defoliants, genocide, disastrous military buildup, realpolitik, aggressive invasions, internment camps, House Un-American Activities Commissions, Thirty year sentences for smoking dope, putting asthmatics in chronic pain, imprisoning millions of people, carpet bombing, building prosthetic limbs for your kids, demonisation of anyone who lives near oil, stockpiling more nukes than are needed to melt the Earth's crust, and pissing away the planet.
Let me put this another way: STOP IT. You can think the West is the epitome of human evil, but that doesn't have anything to with gaming. Go rant somewhere else, PLEASE. This is a GAMING discussion, not the place for real-world political screeds.
I fail to see how anyone can place an alignment on real (not fantasy) people... Human beings are far too complex to just label with a blanket alignment statement.
Now, back on topic:
I would say the people who worship Asmodeus do so out of want for power. They worship, sacrifice, and otherwise appease him, he grants them what they want. It's an agreement--a deal with the devil, you might say. You might notice he's a god of magic... I take this to mean he grants his followers the knowledge of magic and power in return for their undying devotion.
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Asmodeus has both Law and Trickery as domains.
Very good observation -- an obvious choice for campaign designers and one that we should keep in mind when we discuss this minutae for Pathfinder.
I imagine all of (the devils) saying "Might makes Right" and "We're Large and In Charge" and that sort of thing.
Despite it being impossible to really define Chaotic and Lawful in the D&D game well enough for consensus, I see this argument of Relativism on the "Chaotic" axis...
The Demons & Lamashtu only rule through brute (stupid) force and only the most powerful get to dictate terms. Asmodeus and the devils, on the other hand, can out-think you, can trick you. Belial doesn't have to be strong; he's smart.-W. E. Ray
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I really don't CARE why someone throws in with evil. Once that choice is made, they will suffer the consequences
OR they will reap the benefits -- that's the whole point.
Also, if we drag real-world examples into this too much, it will become a flamewar.
Additionally, it doesn't make any sense. This is a game and cannot equate with real life. We want verisimilitude in our game so it's good to scratch the surface of these kinds of alignment topics but the fact is that none of our games are remotely deep enough to compare to real life. Our NPCs only exist for a few moments each during the game sessions. DMs could not successfully detail the hourly, daily, monthly, yearly... actions of the NPCs.
HOWEVER, that is not the reason people use real world examples to illustrate how they view their game-worlds. They create the analogies in an attempt to express what they see for their campaigns (not start Flames, praise Asmodeus!). The problem here is that we Paizonians have different degrees of knowledge about these various histories. Thus when one poster gives a historic reference, 10 posters have 10 different ideas of what that means.
The only thing that we should all agree on is that Lawful is superior to Chaotic in D&D ;)
-W. E. Ray
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Last night I mentioned two things I thought would be necessary for a LE faith to work as a popular, mass religion ...
1) The weak have to believe that being ruled - and even oppressed - by the strong is better than what it would be like without the strong...
2) The weak have to have some hope that they might be able to move up in the world and not always be the bottom rung on the ladder...
But I was thinking later that that really describes a LE nation. To make it a religion you would need one more thing:
3) The weak have to believe that the afterlife is pretty terrible, and that by following Asmodeus they can achieve a better position in eternity. It would really help if they believe that the positions they gain in the service of Asmodeus in life carry through to positions in the Infernal hierarchy (not like a tax collector in Cheliax becomes a tax collector in Hell, but that low ranking members of the church will be able to boss around the nobodies in Hell just like on Golarion, etc.).
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I fail to see how anyone can place an alignment on real (not fantasy) people... Human beings are far too complex to just label with a blanket alignment statement.
Indeed! Character disadvantages like the ones found in GURPS and other points-based systems (Honesty, Bad Temper, Code of Honor, etc.) do a better job of it (though it's still oversimplifying), but trying to tack an alignment to a real-world person is an exercise in futility and/or madness (even if it's fun if you don't take it too seriously). However, the alignment system is handy as all get out for making characters for a roleplaying game... ;)
I actually thought that the writeup on devils in Tyrants of the Nine Hells did a pretty good job of describing why mortals would follow Asmodeus, and while obviously that can't be used by Paizo in their books, unaffiliated posters like me can point out that if you have a copy of said book, all you have to do is turn to page 27 and have a look at the sidebar at the bottom of the page.
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Last night I mentioned two things I thought would be necessary for a LE faith to work as a popular, mass religion ...
1) The weak have to believe that being ruled - and even oppressed - by the strong is better than what it would be like without the strong...
2) The weak have to have some hope that they might be able to move up in the world and not always be the bottom rung on the ladder...
But I was thinking later that that really describes a LE nation. To make it a religion you would need one more thing:
3) The weak have to believe that the afterlife is pretty terrible, and that by following Asmodeus they can achieve a better position in eternity. It would really help if they believe that the positions they gain in the service of Asmodeus in life carry through to positions in the Infernal hierarchy (not like a tax collector in Cheliax becomes a tax collector in Hell, but that low ranking members of the church will be able to boss around the nobodies in Hell just like on Golarion, etc.).
Or that they'll have power over the unbelievers. "The least of you that kneels shall be as a king in my domain, and all who do not bow before me shall be as your slaves." That gives them motivation even if they don't want to be king (and really, who could cope with all that work? I mean, do you know how long they have to practice hand-waving?). Who the Hell wants to be a slave for all eternity?
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Better to Serve in Heaven than Reign in Hell. :)
But that really would be the pitch to regular folks, wouldn't it? (I mean the right way: Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven) "You can follow a good god if you want, but you'll never be anything more than a servant. Come, follow me, and I'll make you a prince of Hell." There will always be plenty of non-believers who end up in Hell as larva or lemurs or whatever that every single Asmodeus worshiper probably could begin eternity a second tier devil.
Just curious then ... how do non-believers end up in Hell in Pathfinder cosmology? In Christian and Islamic theology, it's the only other place to go if you can't get into Heaven, but in a universe with multiple divine realms how would a non-believer end up in Hell?
The only thing that we should all agree on is that Lawful is superior to Chaotic in D&D ;)
Nah, I say we should all disagree on that. Not only is it total b$!**#&s, agreeing with each other without thinking withers your brain, and before you know it, you follow some lawful cause.
And we also know everyone hates elves.
Just as the earth is flat :P
(I think there are just as many Threads on elf-hate as there are on LEvsCE Threads on these boards.)
To be serious for a second: I haven't seen any of these. Not on the Paizo boards. On other boards, crawling with immature pests, yes. There, these threads flare up frequently, and the worst creatures we have to call follow RPG fans show off their idiocy by inciting flame wars. But not here.
Just one more reason why I really like it here.
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The only thing that we should all agree on is that Lawful is superior to Chaotic in D&D ;)Nah, I say we should all disagree on that. Not only is it total b#!%~*&s, agreeing with each other without thinking withers your brain, and before you know it, you follow some lawful cause.
And we also know everyone hates elves.Just as the earth is flat :P
(I think there are just as many Threads on elf-hate as there are on LEvsCE Threads on these boards.)To be serious for a second: I haven't seen any of these. Not on the Paizo boards. On other boards, crawling with immature pests, yes. There, these threads flare up frequently, and the worst creatures we have to call follow RPG fans show off their idiocy by inciting flame wars. But not here.
Just one more reason why I really like it here.
I think that's a reason why a LOT of us like it here.
Better to Serve in Heaven than Reign in Hell. :)
Debatable :D
Just curious then ... how do non-believers end up in Hell in Pathfinder cosmology? In Christian and Islamic theology, it's the only other place to go if you can't get into Heaven, but in a universe with multiple divine realms how would a non-believer end up in Hell?
I wouldn't say non-believers end up there. They end up in the Boneyard and Pharasma will judge over them.
But there's always those who put themselves under the influence of Asmodeus and his infernal court, but didn't amass enough power for themselves and the devils to start as even an imp. So they start way down the pecking order.
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Better to Serve in Heaven than Reign in Hell. :)But that really would be the pitch to regular folks, wouldn't it? (I mean the right way: Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven) "You can follow a good god if you want, but you'll never be anything more than a servant. Come, follow me, and I'll make you a prince of Hell." There will always be plenty of non-believers who end up in Hell as larva or lemurs or whatever that every single Asmodeus worshiper probably could begin eternity a second tier devil.
Just curious then ... how do non-believers end up in Hell in Pathfinder cosmology? In Christian and Islamic theology, it's the only other place to go if you can't get into Heaven, but in a universe with multiple divine realms how would a non-believer end up in Hell?
They wouldn't, which is why the proverbial cosmic joke is on evil people. But just because devils are lawful doesn't mean they don't lie like cheap rugs. Because they do. And truthfully, I think it's no mistake that Asmodeus is also the god of Pride. "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven". Wait, WHAT? Let's think about that for a second! Better to be in charge of all sorts of wickedness in a horrible place than have a technically-subordinate position to a being that allows you to live out your afterlife in happiness and peace? That's not a good trade for anyone but the most insanely prideful person, because even if you somehow defy the very long odds and pull off the "reign" thing, you're still in Hell! :)
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I think the first line of the section on Asmodeus in the Gazetteer is rather telling here. I mean, your average Chelaxian will constantly be told that Asmodeus added a loophole into the contract that binds all creation so that he can take over, so in time it won't just be the people who end up in hell but don't worship Asmodeus that you'll be able to lord it over, it's everything in creation that isn't affiliated with him.
Let me put this another way: STOP IT. You can think the West is the epitome of human evil, but that doesn't have anything to with gaming. Go rant.
I agree with him.
He is not generalizing, it's not demonization.
He never said we were the epitome of human evil, he pointed at some specific people and institutions.
You think using cluster bombs is LG?
Let me put this another way: STOP IT. You can think the West is the epitome of human evil, but that doesn't have anything to with gaming. Go rant.I agree with him.
He is not generalizing, it's not demonization.
He never said we were the epitome of human evil, he pointed at some specific people and institutions.
You think using cluster bombs is LG?
Word.
Clerics of Asmodeus give out chocolate at their services.
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Let me put this another way: STOP IT. You can think the West is the epitome of human evil, but that doesn't have anything to with gaming. Go rant.I agree with him.
He is not generalizing, it's not demonization.
He never said we were the epitome of human evil, he pointed at some specific people and institutions.
You think using cluster bombs is LG?
It had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. And neither does this. Go to the political forums! Why is it impossible to have a discussion about fantasy morality of a fictional faith in a fictional world without dragging real-world politics into it?! I know it's an election year, but keep it in your pa- I mean the appropriate political forums. Sheesh. :p
Quick note, in case there was in doubt: this is in good humor, but I mean the central point. I do get very sick of real-world politics cropping up in every discussion about alignment.
Timespike. I see that I am upsetting you. I see that my particular real world analogues were distasteful to you, and that they may be taboo topics in your paradigm. I in no way said that America is evil. I see evil as part of the human spectrum, shared by all people and power everywhere. I could easily have used South Africa (My country)
as an example, but I am never sure how geopolitically or historically literate people are on messageboards like this. Relax. I am not jumping up and down shouting "Death to America" There are plenty of other people who do.
My point is that evil institutions do their evil in the name of greater good.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.
Adolf Hitler
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
Adolf Hitler
Words build bridges into unexplored regions.
Adolf Hitler
Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country.
Theodore Roosevelt
Is not our role to stand for the one thing which means our own salvation here but with which it will also be possible to save the world, and with which Europe will be able to save itself, namely the preservation of the white man and his state?
- Hendrik Verwoerd
Evil is done in the name of good. Asmodean clergy would be seen lifting up the poor (German daily bread). They would have clearly defined enemies. (Andoran traitors and Galtan rabble)
They would be promised security. (Patriot act.)
It would be made impossible to be outside the party line.(Stalinist party politics.)
It would start with the children. (Mao in the cultural revolution)
Propoganda would be absolute, to make people think that it is always this way. (1984. Fox. )
The people would have high rates of employment, and would be encouraged to own property, to encourage them to support the state.
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Timespike. I see that I am upsetting you. I see that my particular real world analogues were distasteful to you, and that they may be taboo topics in your paradigm.My point is that evil institutions do their evil in the name of greater good.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.
Adolf HitlerI believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
Adolf HitlerWords build bridges into unexplored regions.
Adolf HitlerEvery immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country.
Theodore RooseveltIs not our role to stand for the one thing which means our own salvation here but with which it will also be possible to save the world, and with which Europe will be able to save itself, namely the preservation of the white man and his state?
- Hendrik Verwoerd
"Shoo, before someone drops a house on you!"
- Glenda the GoodWitchSeriously - enough with the real world analogies that you feel supports your version of reality. Your opinions on things other than D&D material are no longer appreciated.
Robert
Let's think about that for a second! Better to be in charge of all sorts of wickedness in a horrible place than have a technically-subordinate position to a being that allows you to live out your afterlife in happiness and peace? That's not a good trade for anyone but the most insanely prideful person, because even if you somehow defy the very long odds and pull off the "reign" thing, you're still in Hell! :)
I think it is important to remember that the good aligned planes in the world's most popular role-playing game are not necessarily places of infinite happiness and peace.
"Heaven" hasn't won the war for souls, it is still ongoing, and actively fought, either in the celestial planes, on the prime material planes or in the Hells themselves. It is not a forgone conclusion that "Heaven" will win the war. Further, deities can die in D&D/Pathfinder (re: Aroden). The death of Aroden plays right in to the Church of Asmodeus's hands. Your god can die, your place in the afterlife can be forcibly taken from you, your good works can be undone, and all your sacrifice can be undone.
I imagine that followers of Asmodeus see it as just betting on the house Anything else, especially in places as depraved and corrupt as Cheliax, is a sucker bet.
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Timespike. I see that I am upsetting you. <snip>
By bringing real-world stuff into a gaming discussion? Yep. I don't really care what your real-world socio-political views are. Can you contribute something about the GAMING discussion, or are you going to continue this threadjacking? My problem is not your views. You are entitled to them. My problem is that every time someone brings up an alignment discussion, real-world politics get thrown in. Here's a revolutionary idea: since we're talking about FANTASY, how about referencing some other fantasy? Because no matter how right or wrong you are (or feel you are) about real-world events, this wasn't in any way, shape, or form a discussion of them, pro or con, until YOU tossed it in there. If you want to talk about evil, how about using Darken Rahl, Sauron, Lord Soth, the White Witch, Darth Vader, Raistlin, Artemis Entreri, Orcus, Kyuss, Pandorym, Martel, or The Gentleman with the Thistledown Hair?
If you want to talk about evil, how about using Darken Rahl, Sauron, Lord Soth, the White Witch, Darth Vader, Raistlin, Artemis Entreri, Orcus, Kyuss, Pandorym, Martel, or The Gentleman with the Thistledown Hair?
Because sometimes the delineations are less clear in RL, and we are better able to get down to the real problems of alignment discussion.
You have no more right to demand someone keep RL out of the discussion that someone else has to bring it in.
The way I see it, nobody has said anything insulting or offensive here, so if you are upset, it is you allowing yourself to get upset, not someone else making you upset.
May someone enlighten me, to what point you're all trying to make?
May someone enlighten me, to what point you're all trying to make?
I just want to save the world.
Nope that's not it.
I forget.
Leave him to it. He is obviously upset, and I do not see any need to provoke him. I will not chime in on this subject again.
Seriously - enough with the real world analogies that you feel supports your version of reality. Your opinions on things other than D&D material are no longer appreciated.
Robert
Other than Lazar's example, Other notable examples would be the severing of a head of an innocent journalist in front of cameras to get ones political or religious views heard around the world; or flying Boeing commercial jumbo-jets into buildings full of innocent people; or experimenting and murdering on 12 million russians during World War II. They didn't do it because they thought "Hey look at us - we're evil and proud of it!" they did it becuase they thought it was in their best interest to protect their way of life. Of course, this doesn't mean they're any less messed up in the head - but I'm sure the followers of Asmodeus are similarly not all right in the head either.
Robert
(Except to point out this.)
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Let's think about that for a second! Better to be in charge of all sorts of wickedness in a horrible place than have a technically-subordinate position to a being that allows you to live out your afterlife in happiness and peace? That's not a good trade for anyone but the most insanely prideful person, because even if you somehow defy the very long odds and pull off the "reign" thing, you're still in Hell! :)I think it is important to remember that the good aligned planes in the world's most popular role-playing game are not necessarily places of infinite happiness and peace.
"Heaven" hasn't won the war for souls, it is still ongoing, and actively fought, either in the celestial planes, on the prime material planes or in the Hells themselves. It is not a forgone conclusion that "Heaven" will win the war. Further, deities can die in D&D/Pathfinder (re: Aroden). The death of Aroden plays right in to the Church of Asmodeus's hands. Your god can die, your place in the afterlife can be forcibly taken from you, your good works can be undone, and all your sacrifice can be undone.
I imagine that followers of Asmodeus see it as just betting on the house Anything else, especially in places as depraved and corrupt as Cheliax, is a sucker bet.
This is a good point! I generally tend to think of it in slightly different terms, though: there are 3 upper and 3 lower planes. Depending on your alignment and your deity, you go to one when you die. Even if your deity is killed, your soul is still where it wound up. The afterlives are pretty much inviolate to outsiders not native to them. In other words, "paladin in hell" scenarios are possible, but armies of devils knocking on Heaven's door are not. This isn't the default assumption, however, and moreover, Hell may very well wind up winning in the default system, because unlike the upper planes, Hell makes its souls into more efficient troops, rather than leaving them as petitioners.
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If you want to talk about evil, how about using Darken Rahl, Sauron, Lord Soth, the White Witch, Darth Vader, Raistlin, Artemis Entreri, Orcus, Kyuss, Pandorym, Martel, or The Gentleman with the Thistledown Hair?Because sometimes the delineations are less clear in RL, and we are better able to get down to the real problems of alignment discussion.
You have no more right to demand someone keep RL out of the discussion that someone else has to bring it in.
The way I see it, nobody has said anything insulting or offensive here, so if you are upset, it is you allowing yourself to get upset, not someone else making you upset.
In real life it is less clear. In fantasy, it's not supposed to be. So you're actually making the discussion less productive in the name of getting on your real-world political stump. And this isn't a discussion about Hellknights (who are somewhat ambiguous, and maybe for them a discussion of this type might actually have more merit). This is a discussion about the church of Asmodeus, who is self-admittedly, unapologetically, and unambiguously evil. In this particular case, it might actually be more productive to compare him to villains like Darth Vader & Darth Sideous, Darken Rahl, Emperor Jagang, and Sauron, rather than dragging in real-world politics.
Leave him to it. He is obviously upset, and I do not see any need to provoke him. I will not chime in on this subject again.
Is it really so hard for you to understand that the only thing that's bothering me is that I don't want to talk about real-world politics every time I try to discuss alignment with someone in a gaming forum?
If I want to talk about politics (and sometimes I do; I actually met my wife that way!) I go to a place to discuss politics. If I want to discuss gaming, I come here. But I really don't feel like trying to explain for the millionth time why just because some evil people have hidden behind a belief, the belief itself isn't bad, especially since I'm vastly outnumbered on a forum like this, and my opposition knows it. Besides, no matter WHO wins in November, George W. Bush will be gone in January and you can all breathe a huge, collective sigh of relief. Oh, and if your motivation is that you think I don't know what the other side believes, perish the thought. I have a number of close friends and long-time coworkers, and even a family member or two, who vote differently than I do. I'm well-informed on the views of my opposition, thanks.
And actually, now that I think of it, it really does mystify me that it's a very rare thing that nobody ever seems to actually bring fantasy villains into discussions about fantasy villains. What's up with that?
Now can we PLEASE get back to gaming?
Edit: Screw it. This is going to turn into a political debate no matter what I say. You can have this thread to bash conservatives in (again). It's not worth fighting you or making you try to stop. Go grab Bugleyman, while you're at it, just to make sure the job is done thoroughly. I'm out.
And with that, the poster vanished, in a fit of pique!
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(Except to point out this.)
You're illustrated intellect on this thread indicates that you know dam well that my comments were merely a passive-agressive response to that poster to express that his soapboxed grandstanding on anti-american views were not appreciated and ensuring that were no kettles calling pots black.
I, like Timespike, do not begrudge your opinions - you are entitled to them - I do begrudge being beat with them on a forum that is not suppose to be about them. Had I wanted to discuss politics I would go to a political forum. Same mindset applies if I wanted to talk about sports - I'd go to a sports forum - I wouldn't be presumptious to think that people who come to a fantasy forum are interested in hearing my conspiracy theories about the toyotas in Nascar. This is a platform for fantasy role-playing. We may not have the right to demand that anyone not post real-world politics - but I do know for a fact that the mods have repeatedly requested that such topics be left off of these boards - and for many good reasons that don't even include the fact that this isn't a political forum.
Goodbye,
Robert
I think the idea that the god matches the alignment of the worshiper to a somewhat modern conception at times. Many old scriptures think of gods as elemental forces that must be bargained with or even that we are shackled to certain gods even though others exist.
Like the OP said of Hextor, Asmo is the god of contracts and this makes him a god inherent to civilization. There are many things we accept as "necessary" evils, justified by political or economic theory. For the sake of not derailing this thread I won't provide examples, surely you have them in mind.
The average person might see contracts, like hurricanes, part of the world he can't control. As such, he then seeks succor from a god who might be able to do him a favor within that sphere of influence. In Cheliax, where I suspect contracts end up being a big part of life (as they are in our modern world) those with little means might feel there is little choice. Or more importantly, the choice is between Asmodeus and a god who can't help them deal with the problem at hand.
This brings up the question of yes Asmo is evil but is his existence natural/necessary in a modern Golarian civilization?