Unarmed damage bonuses + massive strength from wild shaping. Plus any Monk who can slink his way into Warshaper is going to be happy.
You need at least four levels of Druid before Wild Shape. That's hardly class dipping. And Str +2 from Wild Shape doesn't really justify losing four levels worth of monk abilities, in my opinion.
I can't comment on Warshaper as haven't read Complete Warrior. Are Warshaper attacks unarmed strikes? Monk's unarmed damage doesn't apply for natural attacks.
I can't comment on Warshaper as haven't read Complete Warrior. Are Warshaper attacks unarmed strikes? Monk's unarmed damage doesn't apply for natural attacks.
Found it. They are natural attacks, and thus don't stack with monk's unarmed damage.
Fourth session of our RotRL campaign was a bit shorter than the earlier ones. Still we managed to get into a number of fights, and pretty much nothing else.
The first fight was maybe the hardest this time. It had multiple mid-AC low-HP opponents, and the sheer number of them was exhausting. The battle also featured our PCs frequent habit to rush into battle without thinking. This time it resulted in our monk being shut out of combat for the first half of the battle. Only after we got out of the corridor the monk could actually hit anything.
Maybe it's something to do with the group dynamics. Maybe they just haven't realized that the monk is the best tank in the group. Or maybe monks aren't just thought to be a threat, or capable of handling themselves. It would be nice to know how other groups see monks. Or if the world reacts differently to unarmed, unarmored opponents. Do bad guys concentrate their efforts elsewhere, or are monks mistaken for wizards, for example?
Anyway, the first battle ended with the Not-that-big Bad Evil Guy showing up after his minions had already been slain - causing his quick demise. That was the recurring theme in other battles, as well. Baddies showed up alone, and were easily ganged-up. Not much to report from those fights.
Other comments. Mage Armor is really useful for a low-level monk. And miss more often seems to be less of an issue after monk4, but it still exists.
Maybe it's something to do with the group dynamics. Maybe they just haven't realized that the monk is the best tank in the group. Or maybe monks aren't just thought to be a threat, or capable of handling themselves. It would be nice to know how other groups see monks. Or if the world reacts differently to unarmed, unarmored opponents. Do bad guys concentrate their efforts elsewhere, or are monks mistaken for wizards, for example?
I don't think the group gave the issue any thought at all. They were to busy to get stuck in themselves, not bothering with group tactics and such. ;) As to what the world thinks of monks, the most accurate answer would probably be "it depends". The relative scarcity of monks in say, Varisia, would probably mean that someone without arms and armor would be considered less of a threat than, say a fighter or a ferocious Shoanti barbarian.
Anyway, the first battle ended with the Not-that-big Bad Evil Guy showing up after his minions had already been slain - causing his quick demise. That was the recurring theme in other battles, as well. Baddies showed up alone, and were easily ganged-up. Not much to report from those fights.
My mistake. Should never roll randomly when determining how long it will take for such-and-such to make an appearance. As of the result of the abysmal performance of the villains in the first part of the thistletop tunnels, I actually decided to gang up a few of the remaining ones in the lower levels. ;)
Fifth session of our RotRL campaign consisted of one bigger fight and a lot of role-playing. Practically all dice rolls were made during the combat.
It was the longest fight yet. Our monk showed some of his tank-like capabilities in the prolonged battle. Fighters (and the like) should outlast monks at frontlines but this could be one of the strengths for a (low-level) monk.
The big discovery this session was touch AC. We encountered a host of nasty critters attacking against touch AC. With Mage Armor active our monk had a pretty respectable touch AC (the same as his normal AC). Alone he stood against the opposition, and yelled for the others to retreat. It soon became clear that the monsters needed 19+ to hit the monk. Also their defense relied on needing magic weapons to hit, and not on their AC. Ki Pool and two-weapon flurry were exactly what was needed to eventually topple them. Really, the fight was perfect for our monk (build and level).
In the meanwhile the rest of the party had gotten into another fight - which was faring poorly. Our monk jumped in, and first rescued a fallen comrade. I forgot to use the dodge bonus ability from Ki Pool while taking AoO, but already high AC and high hit points saved the monk.
Finally our monk took the BBEG captive. The ability to deal non-lethal damage is great. While the damage per round dealt creeps higher the more baddies are brought from positive hit points to plain dead. Also, in some campaigns the local authorities might want to have a word or two with adventurers killing everyone they fight against.
I went for Dodge and Mobility (who needs Tumble?) at level 1, and I'll go for Stunning Fist at level 2.That's innovative! I always thought (no idea why) that first level feats should be taken prior to any bonus feats. I guess it has something to do with the way I build my characters.
You have a point there that Mobility is far better than tumbling. It's faster and more reliable. Also a feat is cheaper than a maxed out skill. Luckily Acrobatics has other uses than tumbling. Those two seem nicely balanced, at least for monks.
From a game design perspective the skill could be improved, though. Because more classes have access to Mobility than Acrobatics the latter should be a tad better. That would make specialists special, instead of being equal.
Well Tumble (Acrobatics) lets you tumble through opponents squares. Mobility does not.
Well Tumble (Acrobatics) lets you tumble through opponents squares. Mobility does not.
I hadn't noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out.
I haven't tried tumbling through opponents in a game situation. Mostly because I'm discouraged by the DC 25+CMB. Even with maxed out Acrobatics it could be impossible, and unlikely at best. Granted, Skill Focus (Acrobatics) and Acrobatic give +5 to Acrobatics. Without those two feats I fear there are only a handful of characters trying to tumble through opponents.
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I haven't tried tumbling through opponents in a game situation. Mostly because I'm discouraged by the DC 25+CMB. Even with maxed out Acrobatics it could be impossible, and unlikely at best. Granted, Skill Focus (Acrobatics) and Acrobatic give +5 to Acrobatics. Without those two feats I fear there are only a handful of characters trying to tumble through opponents.
Interestingly, the Alpha 3 document only lists the difficulty for moving through an opponent's square as 20 + BAB. It's actually easier to do now than it used to be.
Interestingly, the Alpha 3 document only lists the difficulty for moving through an opponent's square as 20 + BAB. It's actually easier to do now than it used to be.
I should really read the rules more carefully. I hope the Beta helps in that regard. Now I'm using either Alpha 3 or SRD, whichever happens to be closer. Was the DC something else in Alpha 2? I never read Alpha 1.
[..] Luckily Acrobatics has other uses than tumbling. [..]Well Tumble (Acrobatics) lets you tumble through opponents squares. Mobility does not.
Yes, Acrobatics has other uses than just avoiding attacks of opportunity from moving. I exaggerated when I suggested that you can replace Acrobatics with Mobility. :-)
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Interestingly, the Alpha 3 document only lists the difficulty for moving through an opponent's square as 20 + BAB. It's actually easier to do now than it used to be.I should really read the rules more carefully. I hope the Beta helps in that regard. Now I'm using either Alpha 3 or SRD, whichever happens to be closer. Was the DC something else in Alpha 2? I never read Alpha 1.
Alpha 3 introduced the idea of modifying the DC by opponent's BAB - in Alpha 2, it was the 3.5 DC 15/DC 25 system, not at all changed.
I'm probably wrong about this too, but I thought mage armor gave an armor bonus and was therefor not counted when making touch attacks?
It's a force effect, so it helps against incorporeal touch attacks (like from a shadow or a spectre) but not all touch attacks.
It's a force effect, so it helps against incorporeal touch attacks (like from a shadow or a spectre) but not all touch attacks.
True.
Anyway, even without Mage Armor the touch AC is pretty respectable for monks:
10 + Dex + Wis + AC Bonus (+ Dodge Bonus).
One player was missing from the sixth session of our RotRL campaign. The rest of us went side-questing, an urban horror story in Magnimar.
True to most horror stories there were lots of information gathering. Unlike in most horror stories the knowledge was mostly transferred from our ranger (multiclassing to wizard, has ranks in all but one knowledge skill) to the rest of the party. When that failed it was our monks turn to scale the walls and sneak in. There was little to do for our barbarian. On the other hand, his specialties are hitting and hitting hard. We generally don't need those until things spiral out of control - as they did.
We were attacked by two vampires, while we were unprepared and unequipped. One of the vampires quickly latched his teeth into our ranger, and sucked him dry in three rounds. It took us one round longer to beat through his DR. Once the first vampire was down the other decided to feast on us later, and bailed out. We were left mourning a fallen comrade.
This fight illustrated what happens if a better CMB combatant is able to get a hold. The ranger had virtually no chance of wrestling free while she had the second best CMB in the party. We couldn't figure any other way to help her than pounding away on the high-AC opponent who was draining Con at an alarming rate. We were lucky that the other vampire didn't make her grapple checks as most likely that would've resulted in a TPK.
While reading the grapple rules I noticed that there seems to be something weird about Escape Artist. The 10 + CMB sounds fine and round, but once applying the -4 Dex from the Grappled condition, it's actually a 12 + CMB check with full EA. I guess that's intended, and there is no need for a clearer wording.
Other comments, against high-AC opponents it really is "miss more often". With two-weapon flurry (-4 to-hit) I would've needed 20 to hit - not really an option. Otherwise the monk mostly shined through his skills which aren't the monk's sharpest tool.
I mean, the monk's class abilities evolve around combat. Once they're useless (like they were against the vampires) it's like playing a wizard without spells. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind that. It keeps you alert, and it's great design in principle. If that happens too often, there's something wrong with the implementation. And that's what most people seem to complain about monks. That there class abilities are "useless" too often. I wouldn't say that's the case at low levels.
The seventh session of our RotRL campaign didn't feature any action. On the other hand, it had a fair share of tracking, talking, and knowing. Something our monk isn't really built for.
Nothing much to report from this session. Monks have 4+Int skill ranks per level. Combining that with a rather limited set of class skills means that monks (in general) aren't that useful outside their few specialties. From a game perspective, I felt like a sorcerer without spells. Or a fighter without fights.
It was a great chance to roleplay, though.
The eighth session of the campaign was played already. It had lots of role-playing, and one longer fight against opponents coming in waves.
The critters had low-AC, low to-hit, and they forced us to make saving throws. It was a walk in the park for our monk, really. He was able to fight defensively, flurry, and still hit fairly often. At the same time the opponents needed 20 to hit. When they eventually did, the saving throw didn't pose any problems for the monk. At the same time other party members (and NPCs) struggled with their opponents.
Is it this particular monk build, or the opponents we have faced? Are all monks like that? Struggling against some opponents, and totally trashing others. It feels like I'm missing something if I don't experience meaningful obstacles. Of course, there are obstacles outside battles. But monks are designed to fight. They should have choices especially in combats - other than winning or running.
I'll try to analyze this later in more detail.
After changing the character advancement speed it took a few sessions to reach monk 5. But here we are.
If monk 4 was a sweet spot, monk 5 is dry.
New special qualities: High Jump, Purity of Body, Flurry of Blows penalties reduced by 1
High Jump gives +5 to jump checks and negates the need for a running start. How often do you make jump checks? And if you do there is practically always some room to gain momentum. Sure, it adds another use for ki points. But it can be used only under special circumstances, and ki points don't exactly grow on trees.
Purity of Body is another weird class ability. It's great thematically but how often the characters get sick? Even if they face disease spreading monsters don't monks usually just shrug it off, thanks to their high saves.
Flurry is a tad more effective from now on. That's nice. Unfortunately Flurry doesn't work while moving but that's another discussion. Briefly, IMO there should be an option to build flurry-monks or mobility-monks.
New feats: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
If the feat progression wasn't changed for Pathfinder monk 5 would just suck for single-class monks. Now they get at least something useful. We interpreted monks being proficient with unarmed strikes, so I was able to select Weapon Focus. Finally my fists are as accurate as my longbow (and they have the same damage, too).
New skills: Acrobatics 5, Knowledge (History) 1, Perception 5, Perform (Show-off) 1, Stealth 5, Use Magic Device 5
The chosen monk build has four maxed out skills. That leaves two skill points per level for something different. For in-game reasons, I chose History and Perform.
New equipment: Belt of incredible dexterity +2
It would've been hard to pass this one. Better AC, better saves, better to-hit (weapon finesse, longbow), and half of the maxed out skills are Dex based. Better yet, it's flashy. Great for the concept!
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One thing I would say about Purity of Body: Pathfinder did improve it from 3.5. In 3.5, the ability gives monks "immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy)". PF Alpha gives monks "immunity to all diseases including supernatural and magical diseases." True, monk saves are high, but the expansion of the ability makes the it more viable since the supernatural/magical kind typically have higher DCs and nastier consequences for the PC.
I'm playing a monk in JollyDoc's RotRL campaign and have enjoyed the new changes such as ki pools, etc. They kept things backwards compatible (which was one of Paizo's stated objectives), but tweaked a couple of things (CMB included) to make this admittedly flavored class a bit more crunchy in game. Still, I hope they do something to make Quivering Palm a more dangerous ability - I mean once a week, come on guys!
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Oh, and one other thing... Jump is your fly. The bonuses (as posted elsewhere on these boards) get pretty crazy, and it's just a move action, which means you can (as my 5th level monk did) easily execute a 40 foot long jump over a chasm and then execute a ghoul all in one round. If that won't get some ooh's and ah's around your table, I don't know what will.
In the latest news on the monk front, it looks like the feat Gorgon's Fist is going to go from fairly useful in Alpha 3 to fairly useless in Beta. It's going to take a standard action to use, and it also has a Fort save? Why wouldn't I use Stunning Fist instead, since stunning is better than staggering in general, and it doesn't take a standard action to perform?
One thing I would say about Purity of Body: Pathfinder did improve it from 3.5.
True. Still I've run four different (3.5) campaigns and played in five to six (3.5 and PF combined). None of those campaigns have featured any diseases, magical or not. YMMV, of course. I'm only pointing out that Purity of Body - while nice - doesn't see use that often.
Frankly, I could live without Purity of Body, Still Mind, and Diamond Body. They seem a bit clunky. And they all have the same purpose: protect the monk against some special attack. They could've been streamlined somehow, or replaced with totally new abilities.
I agree with the rest of your post.
Jump is your fly.
I thought of mentioning that. But that's true only if the monk doesn't get flight from somewhere else. Or if no one get flight. It's actually the High Jump ability that keeps the monks from getting flight before everyone else can fly. Ie. "You can jump high enough. Now, let me have that broom!"
Also High Jump is worse than flight. When needed the designated flyer will do all the flying. The monk needs to keep his feet on the ground like everyone else.
High Jump is like a bicycle: it's great, unless your brother gets a car.
Why wouldn't I use Stunning Fist instead, since stunning is better than staggering in general, and it doesn't take a standard action to perform?
Because you can't use Stunning Fist to set up for Medusa's Wrath. That being said, nerfing Gorgon's Fist discourages taking the feat in the first place. Which further discourages taking Medusa's Wrath. I thought the new feats were great. They looked tailor-made for monks. Were they overpowered, or why the nerf?
Of course, it's entirely possible that the new Medusa's Wrath is somehow improved. And that could be a reason to tone down Gorgon's Fist.
Reading the feats once again an idea struck me. Or more like reminded me of its existence. Weapon Focus or Double Slice? Let's take the monk in question as an example.
Prior to the level 5 feat he hits as a standard action at +9 or two-weapon flurries at +6/+6/+6 *). Weapon Focus changes that to +10 and +7/+7/+7, respectively. Double Slice would be +9 and +8/+8/+6. The latter also applies to all monk weapons instead of just unarmed strikes. The brute force monk I'm building uses TWF more often than standard actions. Would it be better to opt for Double Slice instead of Weapon Focus?
*) I didn't list Flurry as TWF monks very rarely do that. It's generally better to two-weapon flurry instead.
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Reading the feats once again an idea struck me. Or more like reminded me of its existence. Weapon Focus or Double Slice? Let's take the monk in question as an example.
Prior to the level 5 feat he hits as a standard action at +9 or two-weapon flurries at +6/+6/+6 *). Weapon Focus changes that to +10 and +7/+7/+7, respectively. Double Slice would be +9 and +8/+8/+6. The latter also applies to all monk weapons instead of just unarmed strikes. The brute force monk I'm building uses TWF more often than standard actions. Would it be better to opt for Double Slice instead of Weapon Focus?
*) I didn't list Flurry as TWF monks very rarely do that. It's generally better to two-weapon flurry instead.
I wouldn't, I'd much rather use the weapon focus and later on the feat that allows you to deal b/p/s at your choice with your fists, especially if the beta does indeed have a way for monks to enhance their unarmed strikes.
Why wouldn't I use Stunning Fist instead, since stunning is better than staggering in general, and it doesn't take a standard action to perform?Because you can't use Stunning Fist to set up for Medusa's Wrath.
Yes, you can (at least as of Alpha 3):
"Medusa’s Wrath (Combat)
You can take advantage of your opponent’s confusion,
delivering multiple blows.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon’s Fist,
Scorpion Style, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Make two additional unarmed strikes as part
of your full attack action at your highest base attack
bonus. All of your unarmed strikes must be made against
a dazed, flat-footed, staggered, or stunned foe."
I wouldn't, I'd much rather use the weapon focus and later on the feat that allows you to deal b/p/s at your choice with your fists, especially if the beta does indeed have a way for monks to enhance their unarmed strikes.
If Beta has such a feat. We're currently playing with with Alpha + SRD. And we'll convert the characters to Beta after GenCon, if needed. That is, Versatile Unarmed Strike is out of question for us. At least, at the moment.
Btw, Versatile Unarmed Strike stacks with Double Slice as well. I didn't quite get it. How is that relevant? That is, the idea was to apply Double Slice to unarmed strikes.
Because you can't use Stunning Fist to set up for Medusa's Wrath.
Yes, you can (at least as of Alpha 3)
No, you can't :)
Stunning Fist says: A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action).
Medusa's Wrath says: Make two additional unarmed strikes as part of your full attack at your highest base attack bonus.
Because Medusa's Wrath is a combat feat. Combat feat rules say: Unless stated otherwise, you must choose to use a combat feat before any attack rolls are made and its effects last until the beginning of your next turn.
That is, you can't state that you're using Medusa's Wrath at round 1 as the opponent is not stunned. If you stun him during round 1, you cannot use Medusa's Wrath at round 2 because the opponent is no longer stunned. He just cleared his head before your turn.
Even when combat feat restrictions are raised in Beta I'd rule Stunning Fist + Medusa's Wrath a no-go. You'd need to state you're using a full-round action to attack, nominate one of the attacks a Stunning Fist attempt, and if that is successful activate Medusa's Wrath. Technically it would still be a part of the full attack. But I'm not so sure it's allowed to add (highest attack bonus) attacks in the middle of a full attack. This could need some clarification, though.
Oops. Never mind, then. :-)
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I wouldn't, I'd much rather use the weapon focus and later on the feat that allows you to deal b/p/s at your choice with your fists, especially if the beta does indeed have a way for monks to enhance their unarmed strikes.If Beta has such a feat. We're currently playing with with Alpha + SRD. And we'll convert the characters to Beta after GenCon, if needed. That is, Versatile Unarmed Strike is out of question for us. At least, at the moment.
Btw, Versatile Unarmed Strike stacks with Double Slice as well. I didn't quite get it. How is that relevant? That is, the idea was to apply Double Slice to unarmed strikes.
I was specifically thinking of it with the flurry instead of two weapon fighting, sorry.
The ninth session of our RotRl campaign was played. All material relevant to playtesting is spoilers.
First we faced a few carrion storms. High AC was irrelevant, and low damage output made things harder. Luckily they were more flavor than obstacles.
Next were haunts, a lot of haunts. Most of them forced a Will save or a Fort save. Some party members struggled with them while the monk had a walk in the park.
Last we faced a DR 5/slashing, Fast healing 5 revenant. The monk had trouble damaging the undead, and if he did it was healed in the next round. Had we noticed the vulnerability to slashing I would've changed to a pair of kamas. -1 to-hit, +4 damage is a no-brainer.
Weapon Finesse's +1 BAB prerequisite is such a fundamentally bad design decision, I have no idea why it's survived this long. Seriously, just get rid of it already.
Weapon Finesse's +1 BAB prerequisite is such a fundamentally bad design decision, I have no idea why it's survived this long. Seriously, just get rid of it already.
They did, in Beta.
Weapon Finesse's +1 BAB prerequisite is such a fundamentally bad design decision, I have no idea why it's survived this long. Seriously, just get rid of it already.They did, in Beta.
I didn't notice that. Whoo-hoo! But not surprisingly they toned Mobility back down to its original version.
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But not surprisingly they toned Mobility back down to its original version.
Alas, my monk was enjoying the old Mobility.
But now for a question about that: The Beta clearly states that Dodge bonuses stack (ppg 91, 131, 156). Dodge is now a swift action to activate. Does this mean that my 7th level monk using Dodge as a swift action and Mobility (used as part of a move action) would receive a +2 Dodge bonus (for Dodge and 10 ranks in Acrobatics) and the +4 Dodge bonus from Mobility for a total +6 Dodge bonus to AC vs AoOs?
Okay, now what if my monk uses Dodge and Mobility as above while moving through a threatened area as a swift action (Dodge) a move action (Mobility) and uses a standard action (Total Defense). Would he then get the additional +4 to AC from Total Defense (pg 137) for a total +10 AC Dodge bonus?
Admittedly, he wouldn't get to attack, but if he needed to get somewhere to help an ally or escape from trouble, the Dodge bonuses can help save his bacon.
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But not surprisingly they toned Mobility back down to its original version.Alas, my monk was enjoying the old Mobility.
But now for a question about that: The Beta clearly states that Dodge bonuses stack (ppg 91, 131, 156). Dodge is now a swift action to activate. Does this mean that my 7th level monk using Dodge as a swift action and Mobility (used as part of a move action) would receive a +2 Dodge bonus (for Dodge and 10 ranks in Acrobatics) and the +4 Dodge bonus from Mobility for a total +6 Dodge bonus to AC vs AoOs?
Okay, now what if my monk uses Dodge and Mobility as above while moving through a threatened area as a swift action (Dodge) a move action (Mobility) and uses a standard action (Total Defense). Would he then get the additional +4 to AC from Total Defense (pg 137) for a total +10 AC Dodge bonus?
Admittedly, he wouldn't get to attack, but if he needed to get somewhere to help an ally or escape from trouble, the Dodge bonuses can help save his bacon.
Um, how does your 7th level monk have 10 ranks in acrobatics? you can only have ranks=to your level, is there a monk ability I missed that adds extra ranks to your character?
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But not surprisingly they toned Mobility back down to its original version.Alas, my monk was enjoying the old Mobility.
But now for a question about that: The Beta clearly states that Dodge bonuses stack (ppg 91, 131, 156). Dodge is now a swift action to activate. Does this mean that my 7th level monk using Dodge as a swift action and Mobility (used as part of a move action) would receive a +2 Dodge bonus (for Dodge and 10 ranks in Acrobatics) and the +4 Dodge bonus from Mobility for a total +6 Dodge bonus to AC vs AoOs?
Okay, now what if my monk uses Dodge and Mobility as above while moving through a threatened area as a swift action (Dodge) a move action (Mobility) and uses a standard action (Total Defense). Would he then get the additional +4 to AC from Total Defense (pg 137) for a total +10 AC Dodge bonus?
Admittedly, he wouldn't get to attack, but if he needed to get somewhere to help an ally or escape from trouble, the Dodge bonuses can help save his bacon.
Um, how does your 7th level monk have 10 ranks in acrobatics? you can only have ranks=to your level, is there a monk ability I missed that adds extra ranks to your character?
No, there isn't. You can't have 10 ranks in a skill until you're 10th level. The +3 class skill bonus doesn't count in terms of # of rank benefits. It's just a +3 typeless bonus to the checks themselves.
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No, there isn't. You can't have 10 ranks in a skill until you're 10th level. The +3 class skill bonus doesn't count in terms of # of rank benefits. It's just a +3 typeless bonus to the checks themselves.
I see that you are correct. Hmm, looking at the Designer Notes inset on page 52 of the Beta, Jason addresses the -3 adjustment for backwards compatibility. That is how we had been handling it in our game, and I suppose I had that on the brain. Thanks for the clear-up fellas, and I would appreciate your take on my actual question about Dodge stacking, Mobility, and Total Defense.
if you flurry of blows with a kama what minuses are you at if you don't have two weapon fighting?
Thanks for the clear-up fellas, and I would appreciate your take on my actual question about Dodge stacking, Mobility, and Total Defense.
Yes, those Dodge bonuses stack. You can boost your AC up quite high that way.
if you flurry of blows with a kama what minuses are you at if you don't have two weapon fighting?
Two kamas, flurry of blows, and nothing else? You have the FoB for that in the monk level table. Or did you mean something else?