I'm playing a human monk in our Rise of the Runelords campaign, ran by Navdi. The campaign itself is heavily into roleplaying but I'll try to look how the monk fares from a gamistic point of view. That is, I'll save you from most of the in-game reasoning. And I'm not going to spoil RotRL in this thread.
We're playing with Alpha 3 rules, complemented by the SRD. In addition, we used racial hit points, and the feats from RotRL. The abilities were rolled: 4d6, lose lowest, throw six times, distribute freely. I was given some slack as the first set rolled - though nice - had only one high score. We agreed that well-rounded abilities fit the concept better. Incidentally, the second set rolled was something best described as godly monk stats.
Abilities: STR 16, DEX 19 (+2 racial), CON 16, INT 12, WIS 16, CHA 11
One of the bigger problems was selecting the feats. I was craving for Weapon Finesse but it had BAB +1 pre-req, as did Weapon Focus. And which monk feat to take? Eventually I settled for brute force - something describing the character.
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Proficiency (Longbow), Stunning Fist, Toughness, Two-weapon Fighting
The rest of the stats are more traditional for monks all around.
Special Qualities: AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows
Skill ranks: Acrobatics 1, Climb 1, Escape Artist 1, Perception 1, Sense Motive 1, Stealth 1
Equipment: Nothing worth mentioning
Overall, I was pretty pleased with the stats. BAB +1 or Weapon Finesse as bonus feat would've been superb but you can't have it all.
If I were you (and I am in sort of the same situation since I'm building a Pathfinder monk too), I'd switch out Stunning Fist for another monk feat like Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows (or even Scorpion Style) and pick up Stunning Fist at level 2. But then again I'm not crazy about 1/day abilities (unless they're great and they're guaranteed to work).
I'd switch out Stunning Fist for another monk feat like Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows (or even Scorpion Style) and pick up Stunning Fist at level 2.
I actually thought of taking Stunning Fist later for the exact same reason. Then again, a Tekken-style knockout blow (counts as Stunning Fist) fit the concept better.
From a gamistic point of view, I'd say Scorpion Style is pretty weak on its own. And monks don't need it for Gorgon's Fist. In my opinion, it's on the bonus feat list only for completeness' sake.
I agree that the other two feats are great. The problem is that there are better feats available at level 6 (and beyond). Choosing only two bonus feats before that is a dilemma - although a positive one. I'm going for Stunning Fist and Dodge.
I actually thought of taking Stunning Fist later for the exact same reason. Then again, a Tekken-style knockout blow (counts as Stunning Fist) fit the concept better.
From a gamistic point of view, I'd say Scorpion Style is pretty weak on its own. And monks don't need it for Gorgon's Fist. In my opinion, it's on the bonus feat list only for completeness' sake.
I agree that the other two feats are great. The problem is that there are better feats available at level 6 (and beyond). Choosing only two bonus feats is a dilemma - although a positive one. I'm going for Stunning Fist and Dodge.
I went for Dodge and Mobility (who needs Tumble?) at level 1, and I'll go for Stunning Fist at level 2.
I agree that Scorpion Fist is kind of weak, but at least you can use it as often as you want with no save.
I went for Dodge and Mobility (who needs Tumble?) at level 1, and I'll go for Stunning Fist at level 2.
That's innovative! I always thought (no idea why) that first level feats should be taken prior to any bonus feats. I guess it has something to do with the way I build my characters.
You have a point there that Mobility is far better than tumbling. It's faster and more reliable. Also a feat is cheaper than a maxed out skill. Luckily Acrobatics has other uses than tumbling. Those two seem nicely balanced, at least for monks.
From a game design perspective the skill could be improved, though. Because more classes have access to Mobility than Acrobatics the latter should be a tad better. That would make specialists special, instead of being equal.
Let's take a look at party composition and the role and abilities of our monk in the company he keeps.
The party consists of Elf Barbarian, Elf Ranger, Human Ranger, and the Human Monk in question.
At first level the other party members are easy to measure against the monk. They are all lightly armored skirmishers, and there is no magic available to any of the characters.
AC: Due to starting money issues the barbarian and rangers were limited to studded leather. That and the fact the our monk has high WIS gave all characters about the same AC. All had AC either 16 or 17.
Hp: We used racial hit points, and max hp at first level. Before any CON modifiers this would've resulted in hp spread of 15, 14, 17, and 15, respectively (Elven -2 CON taken into account). Concentrating in CON (easy with godly monk stats) and using the human bonus feat for Toughness gave our monk the best hp in the group.
Skills: Elves get +2 INT which effectively gives them the same additional skill rank than humans get. Thus the rangers had more ranks than the barbarian and the monk.
BAB: Monk drew the shortest straw here. All others have full BAB, and were more or less concentrating on STR. Also their weapons are more fearsome than the fists at level 1.
In conclusion, the monk is on par with AC, has the most hp, and the worst damage output. All that tilts his role towards a melee controller, or a tanker, if you will. Having the least skill points (with the barbarian) also hints towards a fighter-role. Luckily this stems with his character concept. Looks like the monk is doing well at level 1.
Very informative and interesting thread. Should give one a good view on monk builds on all levels of play. A pity that we won't have time to run it the whole course of levels 1-15 before the Beta release, though. ;)
Okay, how did the monk fare in the first session of our RotRL campaign.
There were two combats, and a few appropriate skill checks in the session. The only skills our monk used were acrobatics and perception.
The combats were rather chaotic, in a tactical sense. The characters didn't know each other's strengths and weaknesses - not to mention those of the opponents'. Luck was the main factor deciding who got severely hurt, and who didn't.
Our monk needed 14 to hit in both combats (thanks to his high STR). Due to poor rolling he hit exactly twice. Had he hit more often the lower damage output (on paper) might have shown. Now I can't really say much about his combat effectiveness.
Later I realized that he should've flurried whenever possible. Given his high STR score the unarmed strike damage was rather impressive already at the first level. The damage would've justified taking the -2 to hit from flurrying. Monks with normal STR (13 or less) face the problem of flurry being mostly useless at lower levels, though.
There's not much to be said about the skill checks. The only comment is that the DC to tumble past an enraged shopkeeper (don't ask :) was appropriate for a high DEX character.
Leveling to monk 2 was rather painless. The only bigger fuss came from selecting the monk bonus feat. After rolling nice hp, and seeing that the monk's role as the party's tanker was strengthened, I chose Dodge. Still going for brute force with his feats.
New feats: Dodge
New special qualities: Evasion
New skills: Acrobatics 2, Perception 2, Ride 1, Sleight of Hand 1, Stealth 2, Swim 1
Then came the equipment. We had acquired some hard currency during our adventuring, and it was time to put it to good use. The free martial weapon proficiency was earlier spent on longbow, so I went out and bought one. Actually, I bought the best bow there was available - spending most of my hard-earned cash in the process.
Equipment: Mwk composite longbow (+3 Str bonus)
Now, let's look what happened to our monk's best ways to hurt someone.
Attack: Unarmed strike +4 melee (d6+3) or longbow +6 ranged (d8+3)
The best option is to stay out of harm's way, and fire away. The monk can take Weapon finesse at level 3 but the bow still outperforms the fist (the same would happen earlier if the monk has the same STR and DEX). At level 4 the fist deals as much damage but the bow still hits more often. Finally, at level 8 the fist makes 1 point more damage per hit (on average) - effectively, using unarmed strike is -1 to hit, +1 to damage.
Around level 12 the monk is better off using his fist than the bow - unless he has acquired a magical bow at some point. Of course, this was the case already with 3.5 but I never realized it before.
Full attack: Flurry of blows +2/+2 melee (d6+3/d6+3) or two-weapon flurry +0/+0/+0 melee (d6+3/d6+3/d6+1) or longbow +5 ranged (d8+3)
Full attack changes things a bit. I made a quick calculation about expected damage against different ACs given the stats above. Ranged attack was the best option against ACs 18 to 24. Otherwise, melee attacks had a greater expected damage output.
That is, when the monk is against something tough he should forget his life-long training with unarmed strikes, and start using his longbow - without a single feat augmenting his ranged abilities!
Hm... that's just plain wrong. 8 Levels of Monk until the character gets better at handing out the pain than Class Any at shooting a bow? Ridiculous.
Suppose said Monk spent feats on archery-boosting abilities? I'm guessing that'd mean the Monk in question would never want to get up close and personal ever again. Then again, archery is ALSO an oriental martial arts discipline. Monks doing somersaults and shooting a dozen arrows a second at their targets... Now, that's a wuxia image right there if there ever was any.
Darn. Sucks to be the "designated DM". Reading these threads has really made me want to play a character of my own... ;)
Hm... that's just plain wrong. 8 Levels of Monk until the character gets better at handing out the pain than Class Any at shooting a bow? Ridiculous.
To be fair, nobody forced him to have a higher Dex than Str, or to fight unarmed rather than with a masterwork kama (for instance). Like it or not, a Str-based melee fighter will always be better at hitting and doing damage than a Dex-based one.
For a Str-based monk, the chance of hitting with a flurry of blows is only one less than a ranger's chance of hitting with a Rapid Shot up until level 12. That seems like a reasonable chance of hitting; you can improve the odds as well by flanking, tripping, etc.
With monk, you always go improved grapple/improved trip route, much more powerful than the straight up attack route. Get enlarge person ASAP on a ring 5/day and you are set. When they are prone they are a lot easier to kill :)
To be fair, nobody forced him to have a higher Dex than Str, or to fight unarmed rather than with a masterwork kama (for instance).
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my earlier post. A monk with same Str and Dex scores is better off using a mwk bow rather than his fists (at the lower levels). Also, he's better off using a mwk bow than a mwk kama.
Same Str and Dex scores is a fair assumption for a monk, in my opinion. Especially, when we're comparing melee attacks to ranged ones. You seem to suggest that all monks should have higher Str than Dex.
Also, please note that druids, rogues, bards, and clerics are at least as good archers as the monk. I find it rather surprising that two thirds of the core classes (given the same DEX than the STR of the monk) outperform the monk's signature unarmed strikes by picking up a longbow.
For a Str-based monk, the chance of hitting with a flurry of blows is only one less than a ranger's chance of hitting with a Rapid Shot up until level 12.
Rapid shot ranger suggests that Dex is his primary stat. It's bound to be higher than the monk's Str. Unless you consider Str to be the primary stat for melee-oriented monks.
In your example the ranger is always better than the monk. After level 12 the gap gets wider. Also the monks are doing less damage all the time as they need to resort to mwk monk weapons to keep on par with the to-hit rate. If they start using unarmed strikes, they're not going to be nearly as effective in hitting anything.
Farnkly, I find your comparison showing that monks aren't really that impressive in melee (hitting and injuring). They need to focus on something else.
Here is my build:
Human Monk (32 point buy system)
Str 15
Int 12
Wis 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Cha 10
Feats 1st-Stunning Fist, Improved grapple, Improved Initiative
Feats 2nd-Combat Reflexes
Feat 3rd-Weapon Focus Fist
Ability buy 4th +1 STR
Feat 6th-Improved trip, Close-quarters Fighting
Having a ring created with enlarge person 5/day should cost 2000gp and should be the 2nd item that you get. There is also an item in Magic Items compendiumm that give you the same thing 3/day I think. Remember your fists will be one size larger weapons as well as the +4 size bonus to trip and grapple.
You will be a grappling, and tripping machine at 6th as powerful as just about any other fighter in the group....
For a Str-based monk, the chance of hitting with a flurry of blows is only one less than a ranger's chance of hitting with a Rapid Shot up until level 12.Rapid shot ranger suggests that Dex is his primary stat. It's bound to be higher than the monk's Str. Unless you consider Str to be the primary stat for melee-oriented monks.
That's why I said "For a Str-based monk" above (i.e. one whose highest stat is in Str). Just to clarify: a melee character who focuses on Str will always be better at hitting and doing damage than one who focuses on Dex. The trade-off is that Dex is useful for other things (AC and Reflex saves, e.g.).
In your example the ranger is always better than the monk. After level 12 the gap gets wider. Also the monks are doing less damage all the time as they need to resort to mwk monk weapons to keep on par with the to-hit rate. If they start using unarmed strikes, they're not going to be nearly as effective in hitting anything.
To address your comments one by one:
- The Rapid Shot ranger is indeed better than the Flurry monk. But I think there are more ways of getting attack bonuses and extra attacks as a melee monk (flanking, tripping, attacks of opportunity, using ki points for extra attacks) than there are as an archer ranger.
- Yes; the monk gets worse and worse after level 12.
- The monk only needs a masterwork/magic monk weapon up until he can afford an Amulet of Mighty Fists or a source of Greater Magic Fang spells, at which point the bonuses to hit are equal again. However, the ranger has the advantage of enhancing his bow with special abilities (sucks to be the monk...).
Don't misunderstand me -- I agree that the monk has problems. But saying that high-Dex, low-Str characters are better at hitting with missile weapons is not news.
Terok, I think you need to take a closer look at the Pathfinder rules:
1) Pathfinder point buy is different than 3.5 point buy (although those stats are probably reasonable)
2) More importantly, being large only gives you a +1 bonus to maneuvers, not a +4 bonus now.
3) Maybe you know this, but grappling and Improved Trip are much worse than their 3.5 counterparts.
Cheers,
hogarth
Here is my build:
Human Monk (32 point buy system)
Str 15
Int 12
Wis 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Cha 10
Feats 1st-Stunning Fist, Improved grapple, Improved Initiative
Feats 2nd-Combat Reflexes
Feat 3rd-Weapon Focus Fist
Ability buy 4th +1 STR
Feat 6th-Improved trip, Close-quarters FightingHaving a ring created with enlarge person 5/day should cost 2000gp and should be the 2nd item that you get. There is also an item in Magic Items compendiumm that give you the same thing 3/day I think. Remember your fists will be one size larger weapons as well as the +4 size bonus to trip and grapple.
You will be a grappling, and tripping machine at 6th as powerful as just about any other fighter in the group....
But I think there are more ways of getting attack bonuses and extra attacks as a melee monk (flanking, tripping, attacks of opportunity, using ki points for extra attacks) than there are as an archer ranger.
[...clip...]
Don't misunderstand me -- I agree that the monk has problems.
I guess we're on the same page after all. And just approaching this from different angles. You're absolutely right about flanking, tripping, etc. Looks like my main concern - which I didn't realize earlier - was that (melee) monks are suddenly more powerful using a longbow at levels 2-3. At level 4 they get ki pool which I totally forgot. It's the discontinuity that bugged me.
But saying that high-Dex, low-Str characters are better at hitting with missile weapons is not news.
Actually, I said that characters with equal Str and Dex. But that's already dealt with. There is much more in the monk than just heavy-handing whatever happens in the way.
2. You'll need a fair amount of feat investment, Martial proficiency longbow, (assuming we're not talking about an elf here) and presumably precise shot (which requires point blank shot) or you're taking a -4 to hit if your target is mixed up with another and let us not forget cover bonuses and LOS issues.
Humans get a free martial weapon proficiency. I chose longbow mostly at random. Had I not done that I wouldn't even noticed all this.
And you're absolutely right here. Without any feats the longbow is more of a curiosity used in perfect conditions. Apply some serious ranged feats and we're talking about bow-oriented wuxia madness Navdi mentioned earlier.
In other words. Longbow adds versatility to melee monks. Plus there is a place for bow-oriented monks. Plus the monks could use some help :)
That is true I was thinking of the 3.5 comparison build, in Alpha 3 the feats still give you +2, as a 3rd lvl or higher monk you get your level as your CMB not your bab which adds about 2 to the attempt so it almost works out the same for the attack bonus. The size is a big change which is better for you against larger creatures but worse against medium sized creatures. It is also harder for monsters to grapple you now.
The main difficulty is the DC 15 starting point, it almost makes this build in Alpha 3 useless.
Monks do seem underpowered in Alpha 3 since they are very average fighters and their best build has been rendered almost useless.
You also no longer get the free attack for improved trip...
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Using a home-made ring of enlarge person is a little cheesy... the MIC's Belt of Growth only lasts 10 minutes and can be used 1/d for 3,000gp. It's a much more balanced item than your ring which should've been compared to an existing item for pricing, not just slapping the default formula on it (which is explicitly mentioned in the DMG). 2,000gp for Enlarge Person in every encounter is way, WAY too cheap.
That said Potions of Enlarge Person are only 50gp, not 250gp as that's a copy/paste error from 3.0. For the same standard action to activate it's a more managable way to achieve Large sized monk-ey business that's in line with balanced gameplay.
Having a ring created with enlarge person 5/day should cost 2000gp and should be the 2nd item that you get.
What would be the first item then, in your opinion? Personally I find Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, and maybe even Magic Fang better options. Not to mention Rings of Protection and Bracers of Armor. I guess I like my characters surviving :)
What other items you - or anyone else - think are necessary for monks?
Monks do seem underpowered in Alpha 3 since they are very average fighters and their best build has been rendered almost useless.
Was there something in 3.5 that made monks better at combat maneuvers, compared to fighters? That's one of my main concerns about the monk's role in Alpha 3. The role can't be combat maneuvers if fighters are better at them.
Was there something in 3.5 that made monks better at combat maneuvers, compared to fighters? That's one of my main concerns about the monk's role in Alpha 3. The role can't be combat maneuvers if fighters are better at them.
Well, they could use a flurry of blows with grapple attempts; at low levels, that would generally give them two grapple attempts to their opponent's 1. Also, their damage in a grapple was better than usual (although not necessarily better than armor spikes).
As well, they could get Improved Trip at level 6 without requiring Combat Expertise and 13 Int. And tripping had very little to do with BAB (you just need enough to hit with a touch attack), so monks were not penalized greatly.
Well, they could use a flurry of blows with grapple attempts; at low levels, that would generally give them two grapple attempts to their opponent's 1.
Let's see what we have in Alpha 3.
Standard actions:
Bull Rush
Grapple
Overrun
Attack actions:
Disarm
Sunder
Trip
As monks in general, and my build in particular, focus on multiple attacks the standard actions are out. They're more on the fighter's turf. Sunder cannot be attempted without wielding a weapon, and deals damage according to the weapon used. Not the best option with the monk's improved unarmed damage.
Disarm imposes a -4 penalty if attempted while unarmed. But it doesn't mean you'll have to attack with that weapon (ie. disarm, kick, fist is a legal flurry). That's a viable monk strategy. As is tripping. The problem is that both Improved Disarm and Improved Trip need Int 13. Or you'll have to use lvl6 bonus feats for them.
Still, it looks like it's possible to make a disarm/trip specialist out of a monk. He's even more effective than his fighter counterpart. The rest of the combat maneuvers, on the other hand. I just don't see them that good for monks.
Second session of our RotRL campaign was yesterday.
This time there were lots of perception tests, combats, and sneaking around. Being alerted from the local tavern the monk was rather ill-equipped. He didn't have any weapons nor adventuring gear with him. When we ended up dungeon crawling he quickly became the designated lantern bearer. All of these suited the monk just fine.
While underground we were surprised a number of times but managed to hack our way through the opposition. The only problem was that we didn't have any way of healing ourselves. Thus, the point man/elf was changed a few times as hit points ran low. In the actual combats the monk got to flurry a lot, but hit exactly once. I'd like to believe poor rolling was to blame, instead of the miss more often class ability.
Then came the BBEG --
-- flying and damage resistant. Eventually, we managed to lure the little fellow close enough. Jumping high enough the monk got an opportunity to grapple the creature. Maybe it should be mentioned that the monk had the worst CMB in the party but the best acrobatics - thus being the only one who could make the jump. And there was nothing else he could do without cold iron.
Succeeding in three consecutive grapple checks - to grapple, to pin, and to tie up - made the rest of the combat rather short. We weren't sure if the tie up DC was 17 or 22 but ruled that the natural 20 rolled was enough.
Again, the monk did well with his full BAB fellows. He didn't manage to hit anything but survived, and managed to beat the BBEG. Looks good so far.
Well, they could use a flurry of blows with grapple attempts; at low levels, that would generally give them two grapple attempts to their opponent's 1.Let's see what we have in Alpha 3.
Standard actions:
Bull Rush
Grapple
OverrunAttack actions:
Disarm
Sunder
TripAs monks in general, and my build in particular, focus on multiple attacks the standard actions are out. They're more on the fighter's turf. Sunder cannot be attempted without wielding a weapon, and deals damage according to the weapon used. Not the best option with the monk's improved unarmed damage.
Disarm imposes a -4 penalty if attempted while unarmed. But it doesn't mean you'll have to attack with that weapon (ie. disarm, kick, fist is a legal flurry). That's a viable monk strategy. As is tripping. The problem is that both Improved Disarm and Improved Trip need Int 13. Or you'll have to use lvl6 bonus feats for them.
Still, it looks like it's possible to make a disarm/trip specialist out of a monk. He's even more effective than his fighter counterpart. The rest of the combat maneuvers, on the other hand. I just don't see them that good for monks.
I may be mistaken, but I believe that someone with improved unarmed strike would not be considered 'unarmed' as per disarm.
I think it would be cool also if someone who succeeded on a disarm check by say, more than 5 over his opponent, would have the option of keeping the weapon in hand. Or maybe have an 'improved improved disarm' that would even give them a free attack with the disarmed weapon.
I'm pretty sure this is correct, and asked in a previous thread without clarification...but I'm pretty sure the monk is considered armed at all times.
Given what disarm can do if you have your hands free (if both are possible) was what I was trying to clarify. If so, the monk can steal weapons and ditch them instead of knocking them to the ground...which is how we are playing it right now, and it rocks.
I'm pretty sure this is correct, and asked in a previous thread without clarification...but I'm pretty sure the monk is considered armed at all times.
Monk's unarmed strike doesn't mention anything like that. Nor does disarm maneuver. Improved Unarmed Strike feat (SRD) says "You are considered to be armed even when unarmed — that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed". The second part explains how the feat works. I doesn't mention anything about disarming. And there was no need to do that as 3.5 disarm specifically mentioned light weapons, and unarmed strike falls under light weapons.
In Pathfinder the text has been changed to specifically target unarmed disarm attempts. I don't see anything in the rules supporting that monks wouldn't get the -4 when disarming unarmed.
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With monk, you always go improved grapple/improved trip route, much more powerful than the straight up attack route. Get enlarge person ASAP on a ring 5/day and you are set. When they are prone they are a lot easier to kill :)
So the solution to the monk is to always go this one route with the build with this one magic item. I thought the whole purpose of 3.5 was not to have classes that could be built only one way to be effective.
Leveling to monk 3 was somewhat counter-intuitive. It looks like monk1/rogue1/fighter1++ would've been a better class distribution for an unarmed heavy-hander than a pure monk. Nevertheless, I continued with my chosen route, and stuck with monk.
The feat was easy, I would've taken Weapon Finesse already at level 1 if it weren't for the BAB restriction. The new special abilities are nice but not that awesome. Now the monk can keep up with the barbarian, and getting the +2 to Will saves (aren't all enchantment effect resisted by Will save, if at all?) wasn't that big a deal. He was already the only one in the party with full Will save progression.
New feats: Weapon Finesse
New special qualities: Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, Still Mind
New skills: Acrobatics 3, Perception 3, Stealth 3, Use Magic Device 3
The nice new thing here is the UMD. Being the descendant of a sorcerer and a rogue it fit the background, and compensated the lack of buff spells - as the party doesn't have a single caster. Wands and scrolls, here we come!
New equipment: Wand of Mage Armor (50 charges)
Our monk has Dodge feat, and high Dex and Wis. The rest of the party is lightly armored, and have the same or lower AC prior to Mage Armor. With Mage Armor active the monk has clearly the highest AC, and he already had the most hit points. Looks like he really should be the party's tank.
Third session of our RotRL campaign was great. It had three distinctively different parts. I'll comment only the mechanics, and the parts where the monk somehow differentiated himself from his fellows.
First we faced multiple low AC opponents, in good defensive position. The monk was able to rush them mostly thanks to his fast movement and mobility related skill set. In the midst of low AC opponents the monk really got to shine. The mage armor was active so they didn't even hit. One of the players thought the monk was over-powered but I reminded that so far he had hit exactly twice during the first two sessions :)
Finding the tavern brawl involved tracking, diplomacy, and other things our monk doesn't excel in. The actual fight started quickly spiraling towards a TPK unless we acted fast. The second attempted Stunning Fist made it, and during the next turn the local BBEG was grappled. After a short discussion we agreed it was a draw, and ran.
The last part of the session involved a number of smaller fights, and traps. The monk saves are a life-saver. And the mobility really helps, I can't wait to get Ki Pool (Su) and High Jump (Ex). Otherwise, the monk performed as well as his party fellows.
The nice new thing here is the UMD. Being the descendant of a sorcerer and a rogue it fit the background, and compensated the lack of buff spells - as the party doesn't have a single caster. Wands and scrolls, here we come!
New equipment: Wand of Mage Armor (50 charges)
That's why I gave my monk a level of sorcerer; it's handy to be able to do some of your own buffing. Your UMD modifier is not that great, though.
That's why I gave my monk a level of sorcerer; it's handy to be able to do some of your own buffing.
Especially when there are no casters in our group :)
I'll have to agree that monk/sorcerer is a great concept, especially with the new bloodlines. The only problem is that due to MAD monks rarely have that great Charisma. And in this particular occasion, I'm trying to keep the character single-classed, if possible.
Looking at the other characters we have in the party something struck me. They have a niche, and all (or most of) their abilities support that niche. The elf barbarian is fierce and deadly. The elf ranger (later multi-classing to wizard) is a two-weapon wielding library. The human ranger/rogue is a survivalist by nature.
How about the human monk? I've tried to make him a tough brute but some weird monk abilities sprout from here and there. Sure, they can be explained by a number of ways but I'd prefer not needing to explain. Was the mistake to take monk levels for a bare-knuckle boxer? Maybe a monk1/fighter2 would've been more fitting, more streamlined.
I'll try to see what the character might look like being a monk/fighter some time later today.
I'll try to see what the character might look like being a monk/fighter some time later today.
At level 3 the differences are quite marginal. The monk/fighter is more streamlined, has a bit of extra punch behind him, but is lacking some monk goodness (ie. a host of weird class abilities).
At level 10 we should see how the two builds are different. Unfortunately I don't have time to do a full comparison. At least, not at the moment.
Looking at the other characters we have in the party something struck me. They have a niche, and all (or most of) their abilities support that niche.
Which is why I advocate increasing the monk skill points to 6 + Int mod. That way they can fill the role of expert as well as the bard and ranger classes do.
The monk is the only class that has less than 6 + Int skill points, can't cast spells, and lacks full BAB; every other class has at least one of these traits. It makes it difficult for monks to fill any role well.
We leveled again, after our third session (though, barely). It looks like the fast advancement rate is too fast for RotRL. Also, I have problems explaining myself some of the abilities, or how did they develop. We decided to opt for medium advancement, but to level up the characters first. So, off to monk 4 we go.
There seems to be some sweet spots in the monk progression path. Surely level 1 was one, and level 4 is even sweeter.
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 11
New special qualities: AC Bonus +1, Ki Pool, Slow Fall 20ft, Unarmed Damage 1d8
Better AC from both the class ability and the improved Dex. As many monks concentrate on Dex, this is a potential AC +2 level for them. At the same time the to-hit bonus improved by +2 as our monk had Weapon Finesse. Add better unarmed damage and the great Ki Pool ability (okay, and Slow Fall) to that, and level 4 is over the top.
New skills: Acrobatics 4, Climb 3, Perception 4, Stealth 4, Use Magic Device 4
Here the monk's low skill points start to show. No new skills on this level. And he still doesn't have any social or knowledge skills. I might even give up some of the funky abilities for more skill points.
New equipment: Cloak of resistance +1
Cloak of resistance is great for monks. It combines neatly with their great saves. I'll have to see if I have to give up the cloak later but wouldn't want to. Saves are something the monks should excel in - in my opinion.
New equipment: Cloak of resistance +1
Cloak of resistance is great for monks. It combines neatly with their great saves. I'll have to see if I have to give up the cloak later but wouldn't want to. Saves are something the monks should excel in - in my opinion.
Man, that cloak belonged to a smelly goblin druid. Do you really think that it fits your "Cool MMA Buttkicker" -style? ;)
You call 6 skill points per level "low"? That's on the high end, in my experience!
Man, that cloak belonged to a smelly goblin druid. Do you really think that it fits your "Cool MMA Buttkicker" -style? ;)
From the opening post: "I'll try to look how the monk fares from a gamistic point of view".
And if it can't be fixed with soap and water, I'll give it to the elves. They'll surely love it ;)
You call 6 skill points per level "low"? That's on the high end, in my experience!
If he were a ranger or bard that would be 8 skill points per level. Or 10 for rogue. Or 8 for a Int 20 (which he would have) wizard.
Anyway, the comment was mainly aimed at the "6 skill ranks at 1st level instead of 24" rule. I'd like to have more skill ranks for fluff skills. Like Profession (prizefighter), or Perform (dance).
Um you hav 6+1 skill points per level plus 1 for being human, isn't that 8, same as a wizard 2+5 skill points per level + 1 for human.
Sorry, I didn't quite get that. 6+Int as a Ranger, or Monk? Monks have 4+Int. I guess it's a balance/niche issue. Rangers and Rogues are the skilled combat monsters where Fighters and Paladins are their less skilled counterparts. Monks, they're something from between.
I guess it's a balance/niche issue. Rangers and Rogues are the skilled combat monsters where Fighters and Paladins are their less skilled counterparts. Monks, they're something from between.
The Monk is the save monster. Although I'd be inclined to agree on the topic of monks needing more skill points. They are the only class with crappy BAB and crappy skills that isn't a full caster class.
They are the only class with crappy BAB and crappy skills that isn't a full caster class.
Yes, but they're also the only class that gives both proficiency with the handaxe and a good Will save. There's got to be some deep meaning to that; I just have to figure out what it is. ;-)
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I'm playing a 5th level monk in LB1 right now. My AC is terrible, only 16, though I don't have any bracers of armor yet (and doubt I'll get any before the end of the adventure).
Honestly, without my Monk's Belt (my only possession) and Superior Unarmed Strike (Bo9S) I'd be absolutely worthless, with those two though I'm at a roughly even playing field with the rest of the party.
I think one thing that would help would be either A: More Ki points, or B: having fewer and having them recharge every combat.
I like the idea of a monk but I struggle to actually define their purpose. I used to think of them as mage killers but now that improved trip has been neutered even that roll is an effort. What do they do that thieves don't do better apart from saving throws? Even with flurry of blows going mad they still aren't going to do damage anywhere near the level that a thief or any fighter class can do. Even Ki powers don't really stack up that well. You may as well go druid. You get magic, more skill points, can wear armour, get an animal companion and pretty good saving throws. If you cast shillelagh on your staff you actually can deal some pretty useful damage. Instead of flurry of blows go for two weapon fighting.
What is a monk for?
p.s. has anyone considered dipping into druid for a level or two with their monk?
p.s. has anyone considered dipping into druid for a level or two with their monk?
What is the synergy here compared to dipping into Cleric? Druid gets Magic Fang but Cleric has a lot of defensive spells. Thematically, I prefer Monk/Cleric.
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p.s. has anyone considered dipping into druid for a level or two with their monk?What is the synergy here compared to dipping into Cleric? Druid gets Magic Fang but Cleric has a lot of defensive spells. Thematically, I prefer Monk/Cleric.
Unarmed damage bonuses + massive strength from wild shaping. Plus any Monk who can slink his way into Warshaper is going to be happy.