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I said it should be a benevolent dicatorship.
The DM should be concerned with the needs and desires of his players but in the end, when the chips are down and there is a question as to whether the rogue, hanging on to the ledge by the tips of his toes, while he tries to fight off a harpy with one hand, can drink the potion whilst upside down... the DMs decision has to be final. He can asks his players opinions, sure, but if the game becomes a democracy, there does is no need for the DM.
EDIT: I see Chris started another thread so I'll leave off DMing role discussion in this thread :)
Like I said, the rules are vague and you have to figure it out for yourself. But it didn't seem reasonable to me that the combination of a pole-arm and armor spikes would give you the benefit of wielding a spiked chain without the use of a feat, and it didn't seem reasonable to me that the character could throw a shoulder into a dog attacking him from one direction, and then in the same round chop someone closing in on him from the opposite direction with a pole arm.
I could certainly sympathize with a player who had this dropped on them without any warning since I think his interpretation is supported by the rules. Plus, you CAN get the benefit of a spiked chain without spending a feat, as long as you're willing to take a -4 to hit for non-proficiency.
I would say that the players and DM have to come to some sort of agreement about what constitutes "reasonable". And if the DM says something is unreasonable, then explain sufficiently what makes the difference between un- and reasonable. In this case, going from a shoulder check to a pole-arm attack in another direction seems no more unreasonable than getting 2 polearm attacks in completely different directions... something completely supported by the rules.
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In particular, CWM, I'm not sure I'd agree with there being a default "social contract". I've seen games where the players didn't even have access to the rules, and the GM was a great story-teller and referee, and everybody had a great time for years.
Yep, and that is their "social contract" - it's just an informal and unspoken understanding that the way a group handles things is cool with everyone at the table.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Click on my profile. That's how I feel. That's how I felt when PFRPG was launched. That was my olive branch. And for a while, things were good here.
But now, we're back to the same non-stop unreasoned 4e bashing and threadcrapping. It's f!~!ing ridiculous and I'm no longer going to be friendly or nice about it. If you threadcrap, if you post some driveling idiotic argument completely mis-representing the 4e rules set, if you can't post without calling 4e a glorified minatures game or MMORPG, basically, if you can't show the same respect for 4e that you expect to receive for 3e or Pathfinder, I'm going to be right there in your face, pushing as hard as I can. You're right, I have been more of a bastard lately, and that's because this 4e hate has been blown right back up after a nice rest and I am pissed off. I am not going to be bullied out of these boards.
First off, thanks for the reasoned response. I understand where you're coming from. And yeah, I think most of the 4th Edition boards should be "safe spaces" for fans of the system to discuss what they like and where they have problems, without idjits coming in and ragging on them or their choices.
But, I guess I'd understood that this particular thread was open to unsupported negative opinions of the game. The title is "first gut reactions".
...What are other people's initial reaction? I'm curious. However, please remember that to say, "D&D is not 4e and anyone who thinks so is delusional," is a lot different than saying, "4e does not feel like D&D to me and my initial reaction is anger." A little courtesy despite emotions is all I ask.
So, you're getting steamed that people are writing something like "Combat feels like a MMORPG" or "It feels like I'm playing Scrabble, and I love Scrabble!!" or whatnot, which I've understood to be appropriate here.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But, I guess I'd understood that this particular thread was open to unsupported negative opinions of the game. The title is "first gut reactions".
Fair enough (though more attention to the OP's intentions as you quoted would certainly make it easier not to get annoyed at the gut reactions). I tend to lose track of exactly which 4e thread I'm posting in given that they all seem to end up in the same place.
That's funny, I always though Rule Zero was "Have Fun."
Which nobody in this thread seems to be doing.
It's a game. Some of us like the old one, some of us like the new one, some of us like both.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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That's funny, I always though Rule Zero was "Have Fun."
Which nobody in this thread seems to be doing.
It's a game. Some of us like the old one, some of us like the new one, some of us like both.
QFT.
As ever, Mistress Lilith imparts wisdom.
Here's to hoping the "your edition sucks, no yours does" arguments come to an end on these boards.
Fair enough (though more attention to the OP's intentions as you quoted would certainly make it easier not to get annoyed at the gut reactions). I tend to lose track of exactly which 4e thread I'm posting in given that they all seem to end up in the same place.But, I guess I'd understood that this particular thread was open to unsupported negative opinions of the game. The title is "first gut reactions".
I guess I should have known that a "First Gut Reactions" thread would have evoked heated argument. I called it that because even those who have the books haven't really had time to completely absorb the new game.
My apologies to all. Next time I'll start a thread with, "What is your well-informed, reasoned (and civil) response to 4e?" :)
I just have to ask, do you really wear a Viking Hat during the game or is that just a turn of phrase?Just a turn of phrase, and an old one at that. I'm not sure the exact origins, but it's been around forever. It basically refers to the DM's position of final arbitrator of the rules. You don't contradict the man in the viking hat.
This dates back as far as 1989 and is generally attributed to Flavor Flav in the Fear of a Black Planet era.
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I haven't done any 4E stuff yet. My younger brother, however, and his group played a few encounters from Keep on the Shadowfell. According to my brother, they liked it, but a few things were a bit iffy. Sorry I can't remember any details - except that I think they had a problem with the healing surges.
Fair enough (though more attention to the OP's intentions as you quoted would certainly make it easier not to get annoyed at the gut reactions). I tend to lose track of exactly which 4e thread I'm posting in given that they all seem to end up in the same place.
Kick their asses Sebastian! You know they deserve it.
Well, I have to admit, as I sit here reading my illegally downloaded copy, that it really is impressive. I think I will enjoy playing this game. Like the OP I can see that more options are due, because what we have here is limited, but that's not any different from 3.5. In fact I kind of like the fresh start (same with Golarion)... the new Gods list looks so much better to me that the morass of .... well whatever, I'm not picking on 3.5.
I'm almost done the player's handbook, and there literally isn't anything I object to EXCEPT that everything just looks so tidy, everyone is so balanced and powerful. It doesn't look real. It reminds me of watching a Chinese made movie about the Communist revolution where everyone has nice tidy uniforms, and they all bravely move against their foes despite withering fire. Fascistly symmetrical.
It's like when the Player's Handbook tells me that Clerics are brave leaders of men I think "it would be a gas to have a cleric who is a complete chikenshit"... know what I mean.
Yes, it does look like a video game handbook. But if it was, F@#! would I ever want to play that game. But it's not, and so I don't have a computer to tell me I can't seduce the priestess, so I'm not seeing much of the problems some of the detractors are screaming about. I'm in. And I'm pretty sure that a potential new D&D player who looks over the rulebook is going to like it too, and find it much more understandable than 3.5, may I add.
But don't cancel my Pathfinder subscriptions.
One more thing. Much has been written about breasts on the dragonborn women.
Good lord that bothers me. I get the chills and want to burn the book when I see it but I can't because it's a stolen pdf.
Yah, I'm gonna buy it...
I'm willing to bet it was released on purpose.
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My initial gut reaction was as follows:
It's not for me, but by golly, there's going to be some funny stories that come out of it. Kinda like World of Darkness (which I'm pretty sure my friends are sick of me picking on).
The layout was well done. Some of the artwork was great. The idea that they fixed the math sounds amazing.
But it's not for me. I tried, and it just doesn't jive with me. There's no Muse like there was with previous games I played. I didn't read the books and say "Wow. I got ideas for a campaign/character/adventure/villain." Call me myopic for getting that from crunch books, as I most likely am.
That's about it. I hope all the people who play 4e have an amazing time, and wish them well. Let's not devolve into fights where our game is better than any other.
Gut reaction: yes, it does indeed feel more like a videogame. Everything is super-optimized, ultra-balanced, perfectly symmetrical and computerized. All the little quirks are gone, the classes seem very similar and flavour seems to be a manacled prisoner to the mechanics.
But then again, I had a similar impression of 3E and wasn't initially impressed with it either. Both the 3E and 4E corebooks make for pretty dry reading, but I suppose that's their purpose.
The art is often substandard (shockingly so, in the case of the monster manual), and I can't believe they recycled art from 3E.
So my first impression is a definite MEH. That's in direct contrast to the delight I experienced reading Gates & Gorgons!
Perhaps D&D has become too big a business for its own good, and all the flavour of the basement hobby has been leached out of it. Now all we've got are some simple, perfectly balanced rules.
I dont think I actually posted my "gut" reactions here, but suffice to say that I think it meets and succeeds 3rd Edition in every possible way with the exception of not having as much content (which isnt exactly a gripe since 3rd Edition is over eight years old at this point). I guess that the main thing I find myself wanting is a slightly larger selection of magic items, though I suppose a lot of them will be largely unnecessary. I'll have to wait and see if I miss them once I start getting further into the game...
Anyway, the smaller number of races and classes is countered by the fact that I want to actually play everything in the PH, with the exception of the halfling (just dont like 'em): dwarves, clerics...elves. I never thought that I would actually be interested in any of those things, but they've been retooled in a way that makes them so much more appealing.
This wont stop me from making my own content for the heck of it, but I dont think I'll be doing it for a lack of anything else to play.
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I haven't gotten to look at the 4e books myself yet as none of my local stores have it on the shelves. That said, I am in wholehearted agreement with Sebastion that I am tired of the non stop 4e/3e war that every thread on the issue devolves into. For those who wanted 4e, it sounds like the game has far exceeded your expectations and for that I am glad. I am 100% a pro 3P guy, but I want 4e to be as good for you guys as you want and think it to be. Mostly I just want these messageboards to become civil again. It is completely exhausting dealing with 4e fans showing up in every 3P thread to crap on the system and players and it is equally exhausting dealing with 3P fans showing up in every 4e thread to crap on the system and players.
Anyway, when I finally have a chance to look at the 4e books I will post an actual gut reaction. I do hope that fans of both systems can coexist on these boards. Glad the game is living up to your guys expectations.
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I haven't gotten to look at the 4e books myself yet as none of my local stores have it on the shelves. That said, I am in wholehearted agreement with Sebastion that I am tired of the non stop 4e/3e war that every thread on the issue devolves into. For those who wanted 4e, it sounds like the game has far exceeded your expectations and for that I am glad. I am 100% a pro 3P guy, but I want 4e to be as good for you guys as you want and think it to be. Mostly I just want these messageboards to become civil again. It is completely exhausting dealing with 4e fans showing up in every 3P thread to crap on the system and players and it is equally exhausting dealing with 3P fans showing up in every 4e thread to crap on the system and players.
Anyway, when I finally have a chance to look at the 4e books I will post an actual gut reaction. I do hope that fans of both systems can coexist on these boards. Glad the game is living up to your guys expectations.
Thank you for that post. I have not been over to the Pathfinder board for some time and i hope the folks causing trouble there will soon stop. 3e is no longer my game of choice but i respect those for whom it still is the game of choice.
I don't care who plays what as long as people play and enjoy themselves.
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I haven't gotten to look at the 4e books myself yet as none of my local stores have it on the shelves. That said, I am in wholehearted agreement with Sebastion that I am tired of the non stop 4e/3e war that every thread on the issue devolves into. For those who wanted 4e, it sounds like the game has far exceeded your expectations and for that I am glad. I am 100% a pro 3P guy, but I want 4e to be as good for you guys as you want and think it to be. Mostly I just want these messageboards to become civil again. It is completely exhausting dealing with 4e fans showing up in every 3P thread to crap on the system and players and it is equally exhausting dealing with 3P fans showing up in every 4e thread to crap on the system and players.
Anyway, when I finally have a chance to look at the 4e books I will post an actual gut reaction. I do hope that fans of both systems can coexist on these boards. Glad the game is living up to your guys expectations.
Thank you for that post. I have not been over to the Pathfinder board for some time and i hope the folks causing trouble there will soon stop. 3e is no longer my game of choice but i respect those for whom it still is the game of choice.
I don't care who plays what as long as people play and enjoy themselves.
Yeah, same here. My buddy said that some people on sites are using the terms '3tard' and '4ron' as insults toward the opposing faction. I
I can't wait until it all dies down and people can just enjoy what they enjoy instead of the constant jabs and prodding.
For those who wanted 4e, it sounds like the game has far exceeded your expectations and for that I am glad.
Actually, for me it has not. I like it, I plan to play it, I even think it will be a better system than 3e for the most part, but I'm not sure it's the best system in the world or even meets all the hype the designers have given it. There are a few things I miss from 3e. If PFRPG ends up being an outstanding game, I plan to play both systems.
It is completely exhausting dealing with 4e fans showing up in every 3P thread to crap on the system...
I had no idea this was going on. I'm sorry to hear it.
I haven't gone into the Pathfinder RPG threads much because I don't really consider myself any kind of a game designer - the few times I've been there, many of the folk have come up with ideas much smarter than I would have. I have trust that the folks will come up with something great without my involvement. I strongly support their efforts.
I don't see the point of fighting any more. We got a continuation of 3x, the 4e guys got a 4e, who cares? There's nothing to fight about anymore.
That's the way I feel as well. What is done is done.
I don't see the point of fighting any more. We got a continuation of 3x, the 4e guys got a 4e, who cares? There's nothing to fight about anymore.
OMFG!!! I agree with Heathy again!?! What is this world coming too? ~screams as I realize that the world is going to end and then runs away in horror~
(~GRINS~)
I don't see the point of fighting any more. We got a continuation of 3x, the 4e guys got a 4e, who cares? There's nothing to fight about anymore.
Heathy, I think we should bump up your Wisdom score a few points.
Forgive my asking, because I haven't read any 4th Edition material yet, but: how does the DMG state this? For example, the Forgotten Realms has several different elf sub-races, each with its own attribute modifications. A DM running a campaign in the Forgotten Realms would *have* to be able to modify the 4th Edition elf to have wild elves and moon elves and such, yes?I think you've gotten my point backwards. A DM running a campaign in the Forgotten Realms isn't going to be able to say "No warforged." Or, more accurately, I think 4E is going to create players that will whine and call the DM unfair or a cheater if he says "There are no warforged in the Forgotten Realms."
Because in 4E, there are warforged everywhere. Players are entitled to play warforged if they want. The DM can say no, but the books don't back the DM up here. They leave him to hang.
I don't think Rule 0 is explicitly stated in 3.5 either. Closest I can recall seeing it is in the FAQ where you get questions along the lines of 'My Dm is doing X and I think he's wrong. I think its done like Y.'
With The Sage responding 'well your DM is always right...but your correct on your rule interpretation.
This is something that another poster on another thread quoted:
There is a section called Creating House Rules and I quote the 4e DMG - "The D&D rules cannot possibly account for the variety of campaigns and play styles of every group. If you disagree with how the rules handle something, changing them is within your right." Then it goes on to give some advise.
Presuming this is the case then I'd say that 4E actually empowers the DM, in this regard, more then 3.5. As I've noted I don't recall ever actually seeing rule 0 in 3.5 (though I figure pretty much every DM did in fact play with rule 0).
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Presuming this is the case then I'd say that 4E actually empowers the Dm more then 3.5. As I've noted I don't recall ever actually seeing rule 0 in 3.5 (though I figure pretty much every DM did in fact play with rule 0).
I can't remember if it was James Jacobs or Eroc Mona, but one of the two stated the Rule 0 appeared in the 3.0 books but was removed due to space limitations for the 3.5 printing.
Not sure if being told you can change how you have fun is really empowering someone, but I guess being explicitly told it can be reasurring.
Heathy, I think we should bump up your Wisdom score a few points.I don't see the point of fighting any more. We got a continuation of 3x, the 4e guys got a 4e, who cares? There's nothing to fight about anymore.
Are you guys gonna start hugging next?
No, actually, I didn't change the rules at all. The rules are vague, and required a DM judgement call, but my interpretation of the rules is more in keeping with the rules as written. We discovered thisThe RAW state that you may use armor spikes to make a melee attack, and when you do so they count as using a light weapon. You can't use a light weapon and a two-handed weapon at the same time. There is no way to have both readied. This player was ignoring that rule. He wanted to have a two-handed weapon and a light weapon readied at the same time.
I'm going to disagree with your rule call here. You can't use both a two handed and one handed weapon at the same time but in the situation you described they were not used at the same time. He made an attack with a spiked fist and then at some later point used a pole arm. I don't see how that contradicts what can be done in the rules.
As an example of a legal action thats probably closer together in time then the one you described. Lets assume I have a fighter with multiple attacks in a round (I'm 6th level or higher) and I have the Quickdraw feat (I can draw a weapon as a free action). With this character it'd be legal for me to attack some one with a two handed sword on my first attack, I could then use my quick draw feat to draw a dagger and whip it at another opponent on the other side of the room.
In fact I could even reverse this - if I have a dagger in one hand and a pole arm in the other I can't use the pole arm until I free up a hand - but its legal to throw the dagger for my first attack and then attack with the pole arm for my second attack.
Like I said, the rules are vague and you have to figure it out for yourself. But it didn't seem reasonable to me that the combination of a pole-arm and armor spikes would give you the benefit of wielding a spiked chain without the use of a feat, and it didn't seem reasonable to me that the character could throw a shoulder into a dog attacking him from one direction, and then in the same round chop someone closing in on him from the opposite direction with a pole arm.
combining a reach weapon with a Pole arm Its a well known and generally considered legal combo. IIRC its used as an example in the FAQ. That said while its a pretty good combo it is no where on par with a Spiked Chain. A Spiked Chain is treated as a two handed weapon giving a significant bonus too damage and does pretty good damage - it also very good for tripping at both reach and against opponents already in your face.
The Spike/Pole-Arm combo faces a number of issues. To make them both magical costs a fortune while making just one magical (usually the Pole Arm) means dealing with its limitations (no fighting with people right beside you). Armour Spikes are also just not that great a really. Not compared to a Spiked Chain and you have given up on having a shield with this combo so its not like the option is free.
Heathy, I think we should bump up your Wisdom score a few points.I don't see the point of fighting any more. We got a continuation of 3x, the 4e guys got a 4e, who cares? There's nothing to fight about anymore.
Go to the word game threads. It'll help you to re-think the Wisdom bump.....
;P
~laughs in RT~ Good point, Fakey! Good point!
Wow, I had no idea that Heathy would be taken so affectionately. Perhaps I should have used Sir. Heathy or Mr. Heath, or maybe Heath Master, Lord Heath?
Sigh! You guys have to tell the rules of etiquette first.
Kruelaid wrote:
Are you guys gonna start hugging next?
Not likely, Heath charges to much and I'm on a limited budget.
But don't cancel my Pathfinder subscriptions.
Yeah - don't do that. When's the last time WotC. made a really good really thought provoking adventure that was not outsourced? I like their rules generally but have not been impressed with their ability to make a really good adventure in... well I'm not sure I've really been jazzed by any adventure created in house during the WotC era really.
No wait there was some good stuff in Dungeon prior too Paizo taking over - though Paizo then went about upping the Ante even higher.
Yeah - don't do that. When's the last time WotC. made a really good really thought provoking adventure that was not outsourced? I like their rules generally but have not been impressed with their ability to make a really good adventure in... well I'm not sure I've really been jazzed by any adventure created in house during the WotC era really.
Except those contributed by Paizo's writers. And even then they get all messed up and inflated with delve.
It is completely exhausting dealing with 4e fans showing up in every 3P thread to crap on the system and players
Okay whos legs do I have to break?
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Gut reaction?
I was excited about 4E, more so than 3E. The ideas of "streamlining the game", and "bringing the feel back to 1E" and eliminating the "heal me now!" role of clerics had excited me to no end. I was the only person in our gaming group gung-ho about the release date and put in my pre-order months ago. I dismissed the nay sayers and those who said it would play like a CRPG as "not moving forward."
Then I got to read the starter module, then the PHB. I became a little more uncomfortable with how the game plays. You can argue about rule improvements until you're blue in the face, but it felt that the game had turned from an RPG into an action-oriented tactical combat simulator. If I want to play tactical combat, I'll go play AT-43 or Warhammer. But I was still interested in the whole 4E thing.
The other day I got to play. I canceled my pre-order yesterday. I want nothing to do with 4E. I will never give WotC a dime of my money to support what I consider a terrible interpretation of D&D. I agree with virtually every complaint those who dislike 4E make claims over. To beat he dead horse even more, after playing, the game *is* a CRPG no matter which way you try to spin it. Our cleric never even once saw a reason to swing his weapon, our wizard just kept waiting for his cooldown on his spells and there was absolutely *no* creativity in how those spells were used, clericial healing has been handed over to the Paladin, who pretty much needed to run around the battlefield casting lay of hands, my favorite characters for years (an illusion bard negotiator with virtually no combat abilities and an illusionist/enchanter who controlled the flow of battle with his spells) cannot in any way exist in 4E. One person who disliked 4E put it brilliantly, the game suffers from "The Incredibles" syndrome. When everybody is special, nobody is. The "need" to make sure everybody feels like their character is balanced sets forth this problem that in the end nobody really shines because everybody seems equally powerful in each encounter.
Bottom line: I felt attacked and more importantly insulted with the new rules.
Will your feelings be different? Quite possibly, but frankly, my initial reaction is about as negative as they come. I will not be playing 4E now or ever.
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I scanned through the PHB this morning, looking for the general feel of the system. Definitely not the in depth perusal any rules system deserves, but all I can give it at the moment. Gut reactions:
Pros:
Very well organized book, a lot of the art is well drawn (even if the artistic style of certain subjects doesn't appeal to me), and its obvious someone sunk a lot of time and effort into layout. Future books by other companies might want to take notes.
System seems to make an good effort at addressing some of the problems with 3.x (15 minute work day, clerics who only heal, etc.).
Once you get over the change in terminology and learn to read the descriptions of powers, items, it should flow better.
Cons:
I recognize some of the elements people claim are MMORPG like. Not saying its a bad thing, but they're there.
The feel that I have come to associate with D&D is just not there. I tried very hard to ignore my own personal bias towards 3.x or PRPG and give it a fair shake. Maybe I failed in that. The PHB just didn't leap out and inspire me the way 3.x did. For background: I was initially completely against 3.0 at first because I was a teenager who had invested a lot of allowance into 2E, but after 30 minutes of reading the PHB I was gungho for it. That did not happen this time. Maybe it will upon a deeper reading, or it may even take playing it to change the feeling I get. I don't know. But, currently it's not the D&D I want to play on a regular basis.
Final "Gut Response": 4E is not for me.
It's a good game, streamlined, and I hope those who enjoy it have many hundreds of hours of game time. May your dice rarely roll "1" and may you have many wonderful stories with friends and family.
I don't think I'd enjoy DMing it, but I'd be willing to play in a game or two to get a better view of it. Even then, I won't be investing a lot of money into this edition. Not out of spite or malice but out of practicallity.
My gut reaction.
Well the last three months I started to play characters from the Bo9S to get a feel about 4th. And I liked what I saw. The powers from the book had a lot of flavor and I was glad of the outcome when I utilised them. Other people that played characters from that book enjoyed them as well.
As far as I have seen this happens too with 4th. Ok I know that I was a big fan of 4th but now I am reassured that this is the game for me. From a tactical perspective is overwhelmingly interesting. The mechanics are not a big evolution such as the one we had from 2nd to 3rd just more simplified. About creativity the rituals simply rock and the fact that there is a dragon-race in the PH shows a lot. Having read a lot of fantasy literature I could say that powers will put more flavor to a character in the sense of signature moves.
All in all, I was and still am excited. Now, I just hope September to come; fast.
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So I finally got to look at the 4e books. Let me say they are gorgeous. The layout is phenominal and the ruleset is easy to learn and clearly going to be easier for new gamers to pick up. All three books are EXTREMELY information dense and there is a lot to find in all three books.
All of that said, I think 4e is going to be a very good game. I still intend to stay with PFRPG, but I must admit I was impressed with what I saw. 4e looks like it is going to be good, but in my opinion PFRPG will be better. I am not afraid to say I was wrong about 4e though. It looks like it is going to be a great system. I will be curious to see what is in the support books in the months to come. There was so much in the core books that they had to leave some things out by necessity I think. If their splat books and support books are equally packed, then you will be getting great bang for your buck with 4e products. Happy gaming!!!
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Gut: I'll stick with 3.5.
4e emphasizes combat too much.
I like the section on rituals and the stuff added for "martial" classes, but unhappy with the stuff missing everywhere else. I could wait for a PHB2, PHB3, MM2, etc., or I could design my own versions of all the stuff missing (druid, monk, pegasus, enchantments, summonings, etc. etc. etc.), but why bother when 3.5 does it so well?
In the space of roughly 6 months, WoC is releasing 14 products related to 4th edition. Even if you drop the Character Sheets off (really...who buys these, and why aren't they simply free downloads), you are looking at a total of $423.55 + tax. ($374.35 US)
Okay, I'm not the biggest 4E fan out there (far from it), but to be fair, how does this product release schedule appear compared to the typical 3.5 monthly release schedule (prior to the wind down of 3.x support by WoTC)? Seems to me that you would typically see 2-4 products per month.