So, like a lot of others, I managed to get my hands on a copy of the Core Rules and I must say I'm overwhelmed.
Let me preface this by saying I think 4e is still D&D and is probably the best version of D&D we'll have for a while. But it is so different in a lot of ways I find myself being irrationally nostalgic for 3e. Case in point, Attacks of Opportunity are now called Opportunity attacks. Pretty minor right? Well on a silly level I kind of miss AoO.
But most strange of all, for me at least, is the new magic system. It's strange to see common spells like Cure Light Wounds become healing surge boosts in the category of "Prayers" that can only be used once per encounter. Keep in mind, I think this is probably best, but it is just so different than the way I've played for the last 20 years. But then I have to remember that 11 years ago I had not heard of AoO, or Reflex, Will, or Fortitude and a host of other terms now so familiar.
In 10 years when 5e comes out and they combine immediate interrupts and immediate reactions into reactive actions, it'll probably feel strange.
I do have some minor greviences: The alignment systems feels arbitrary; despite a hefty 300+ pages, powers seem fewer than I hoped; there's only 4 epic destinies; and there should be more rituals. Thankfully there are a huge number of feats. While overall satisfying, the game feels geared for a multitude of splatbooks required to have the desired variety of characters.
What are other people's initial reaction? I'm curious. However, please remember that to say, "D&D is not 4e and anyone who thinks so is delusional," is a lot different than saying, "4e does not feel like D&D to me and my initial reaction is anger." A little courtesy despite emotions is all I ask.
I like it! A lot! (I know, I know, shock! outrage!)
It is a little disappointing that Epic Destinies were scaled down to four, but I guess the thinking is most campaigns won't be using them for close to a year, and by then more will be out.
As for Rituals, I love 'em! The second I started reading them I knew they had done exactly what I had hoped (although I didn't know I was hoping for it 'till I saw it! :P)
Re: CLW, check your copies again. It is a level 2 Cleric Utility Prayer now ... and it gives healing equal to one healing surge for free (a rather nice bonus). A few levels later and you get CSW ... which gives you 50% of your total HP! Very nice heals (I think a Mass CLW is floating around in there too, but no books at work :()
Cheers! :)
Re: CLW, check your copies again. It is a level 2 Cleric Utility Prayer now ... and it gives healing equal to one healing surge for free (a rather nice bonus).
Cheers! :)
You're right - I think I was confusing it with a potion of healing, which is just a healing surge boost now.
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I like it. The actual combat rules are a meager 30 pages and they are clear and very streamlined. Character creation and development are a huge part of the PHB as it should be. I also like the comprehensive index. This book is going to be a joy to use at the table.
In terms of crunch - I like the way characters progress. Though I can see the folks that liked spending days building the optimal mixture of classes walking away from 4e. I am sure that munchkins will still abuse the rules but it seems much more difficult to accomplish given the way multi-classing works.
All-in-all I am very hopeful that this edition will work for me. Only time will tell.
So, like a lot of others, I managed to get my hands on a copy of the Core Rules and I must say I'm overwhelmed.
Let me preface this by saying I think 4e is still D&D and is probably the best version of D&D we'll have for a while. But it is so different in a lot of ways I find myself being irrationally nostalgic for 3e. Case in point, Attacks of Opportunity are now called Opportunity attacks. Pretty minor right? Well on a silly level I kind of miss AoO.
It's a minor quible, but i think that it exposes one of the major problems people have had when it comes to adopting the new edition. The change in terminology.
Someone else here pointed out that the term 'powers' doesn't really fit in the DnD lingua franka. But, if they had just used the term 'Ability' instead of power, a lot of people would be happier.
Same goes for 'squares' and 'five feet', and other minor quibbles like OA of AoO. It doesn't change anything, but the use of the new term is somewhat jarring to old hats.
But most strange of all, for me at least, is the new magic system. It's strange to see common spells like Cure Light Wounds become healing surge boosts in the category of "Prayers" that can only be used once per encounter. Keep in mind, I think this is probably best, but it is just so different than the way I've played for the last 20 years. But then I have to remember that 11 years ago I had not heard of AoO, or Reflex, Will, or Fortitude and a host of other terms now so familiar.
What are other people's initial reaction? I'm curious.
I have not yet gotten my mind wrapped aroudn the HEaling surge mechanics. I love them, I think they're the coolest idea to come out of 4E besides the new spell system, but I'm still processing them. For instance, while 'Cure Light Wounds' is an encounter power, so is the healing prayer ability that the clerics get standard. Both allow you to regain hit points, but they do so in different ways and All clerics wil have the healing prayer minor power, but nto everybody will have cure light wounds.
As for the books themselves, i can definitly see how space became a major problem in the Players Handbook. One of the major design descisions for 4E has been the seperation of books designed for the player and books designed for the DM. To this end, Magic items have been put in the PHB.
I really like this idea, but it has lead to an intresting problemwhen it comes to serious space considerations.
There seems to be a concerted effort through the book to save space. There are no wasted lines, no reprinted sections. The best examole i can give is the powers section. It takes a bit to get used to the compact and conceice descriptions. everything is crammed in there really tightly. It all makes sense, once you get used to reading the entries, but you can tell that they built the power template to save space.
Now that I've seen the players handbook, I'm quite looking forward to the Players handbook 2, because there will probaly be a big increase in the amount of space provided fro classes, races, and feats, because you won't have to spend as many pages describing combat and skills.
You're right - I think I was confusing it with a potion of healing, which is just a healing surge boost now.Re: CLW, check your copies again. It is a level 2 Cleric Utility Prayer now ... and it gives healing equal to one healing surge for free (a rather nice bonus).
Cheers! :)
Well, Clerics DO get a Healing Word ability at first that more or less lets others spend a healing surge to heal. CLW just lets them give another character a healing surge for "free" (as in, it's free to the character receiving it, as long as the Cleric doesn't charge!)
Cheers! :)
Character creation and development are a huge part of the PHB as it should be.
I agree - there is actually quite a lot of flavor in the PHB and I think the crunch serves that flavor. I really like how it talks about tweaking a power's flavor text to suit your character.
And the DMG is a wonderful guide for DMs. The DMG has a lot of great guidelines for roleplaying. Some of it was ideas I hadn't thought of, some of it was things I knew but was happy to see expressed.
In 10 years when 5e comes out
Your naivety is cute. Other then that, thanks for sharing.
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Character creation and development are a huge part of the PHB as it should be.I agree - there is actually quite a lot of flavor in the PHB and I think the crunch serves that flavor. I really like how it talks about tweaking a power's flavor text to suit your character.
And the DMG is a wonderful guide for DMs. The DMG has a lot of great guidelines for roleplaying. Some of it was ideas I hadn't thought of, some of it was things I knew but was happy to see expressed.
I don't have the DMG or MM yet. I deleted the PDFs :(
The quick look I did take was encouraging.
I am looking forward to 4.0, even if it is just in theory. If our group decides that it isn't for us, we can always go back to 3.5. I am willing to give it a chance and I don't subsribe to all of the negativity assigned to 4.0 and WoC.
That being siad, I must say I do feel a little disapointed in the release schedule and how it equates to a blantant cash grab.
All of this comes from WoC web site and their product releae schedule. The prices I am quoting are Canadian dollars.
In the space of roughly 6 months, WoC is releasing 14 products related to 4th edition. Even if you drop the Character Sheets off (really...who buys these, and why aren't they simply free downloads), you are looking at a total of $423.55 + tax. ($374.35 US)
Core books - fine
Modules - fine...great even (I don't seem to have enough time to build my own adventures)
DM Screen - even that is fine
But there are 4 supplemental books coming out, 1 a month for the last 4 months! Draconium I: Chromatic Dragons. Same size as the MM, yet $5 more. Even worse...Martial Powers...half the size of the PH, yet still $34!.
Couldn't some of these have been included in the core books. I am assuming these are in addition to the planned release of updated PH and MM slated to be released next year? (Correct me if I am wrong...I swear I heard that was the plan).
Can we extrapolate that if the cost of the D&D books is $423 for 6 months, that we are looking at roughly $850 for a year's worth of books? Through on the monthly charge for D&Di and let the bleeding begin.
I am not a fan of piracy. I don't download movies as I love to go out to see them and I want to support the industry. I download comics from a historical/nostalgic perspective, but continue to purchase new comics to support my local store. I will buy the core 4.0 books and the modules. As for the supplemental books? Some core supplements once a year would be doable (I personally love the DMG2 and PH2), but I just can't see myself being able to justify spending money on the other supplements when they are coming out that fast. I guess it's a pirate's life for me...
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Couldn't some of these have been included in the core books.
The PHB is PACKED! I now understand why classes and races that should have been in there were excluded. I am amazed that there is any artwork at all in that book.
If the PHB had included more races, classes, powers, feats, rituals, etc. it would have been 500 pages and cost twice as much.
Our options were slim when 3e came along and the early splat book were very expensive - and they came out very soon after the core books.
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In terms of crunch - I like the way characters progress. Though I can see the folks that liked spending days building the optimal mixture of classes walking away from 4e. I am sure that munchkins will still abuse the rules but it seems much more difficult to accomplish given the way multi-classing works.
It was not the Core Book in 3rd or 3.5 that had all the loopholes, it was the mostly not playtested Splat books.
I can guarantee you, as soon as the Splat books appear, there will be enough loopholes for Munchkins to create PC that do an absurd amount of damage or whatever.
Splat books are the bane of all game systems, but I think it will be ok for the first year or so.
If you think back to 3.5, the real problems didn't start appearing until they released the spell compendium and magic item compendium. Those books, while seemingly useful, pretty much made all the spells in the PHB and magic items in the DMG look like overpriced crap.
Case in point, I have a player who is a favored soul / sorcerer and I would say 75% of his spells are from the splat books like the spell compendium and PHB2. Same goes for the wizard in the group.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: Splat book cost,
It was the same with 3.x. The Splat books cost more because they don't produce as many as the core books. Smaller production run = higher costs.
Re: Splat books breaking things.
With a few exceptions (Complete Divine, (in)Complete Psionic*) Books themselves don't break games. Just like with a few exceptions (Radiant Servant, Abjurant Cheesehound) Prestige classes don't break the game.
It's when you mix elements from multiple *books, that things get broken. My favourite example was Wizard 6/Ruathar 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 5/1 level of whatever. BAB 12, full casting, lots of abilities. Add Spell Compendium for that extra cheesy taste.
*incomplete psionic broke the Psion, but in the wrong direction.
Splat books are the bane of all game systems,
I wouldn't argue this. I'd argue putting out splat books at a rate that Wizards puts out splat books is the bane of any game system. No one that has to survive on their own income can afford every WotC book ever put out. But they keep doing it. So the player that lives at home with their parents or has an unusually large disposable income annoys the DM by begging for every toy the DM has never heard of before.
Now if they put out books at the rate that they have been putting out SWSE books, I'd own the whole set (if I bought them).
If you think back to 3.5, the real problems didn't start appearing until they released the spell compendium and magic item compendium. Those books, while seemingly useful, pretty much made all the spells in the PHB and magic items in the DMG look like overpriced crap.
QFT, I don't own the MIC but 2 of my players only want stuff out of there. Only having me read their magic items at the game tables slows things down considerably. I hate that book.
Case in point, I have a player who is a favored soul / sorcerer and I would say 75% of his spells are from the splat books like the spell compendium and PHB2. Same goes for the wizard in the group.
Same with our evoker, but I'd put that figure closer to 90%.
OK i guess I am going to fall into the haters group for 4ed. after reading through the rule sets once and then going back to reread sections over that i had problems with i keep coming up with the same thought.
This is WOW / LOTRO / EQ1 &2 But worse grafics. i swear i am looking for the how to reset my cool-downs Feat. OW- wait there is an epic one.
This is Like Someone at WOC had heard what D&D was through a old Can & string Phone and then was told he had to make a game out of it.
dont get me wrong As i see it's a great Minis/Quick play game system
but i do not want my PC to be cookie cutters of each other which is where this version of the game is pushing players.
...dont get me wrong As i see it's a great Minis/Quick play game system
but i do not want my PC to be cookie cutters of each other which is where this version of the game is pushing players.
Buh? Look, you're welcome to hate 4E with all your heart, but I'm not sure where you see 4E characters as being cookie cutters. Anything to back that up with? They seemed exceptionally differentiated to me. I'd claim moreso than 3E but I'm trying to get more 4E discussion going here, not more discussion about 4E. :P
Cheers! :)
I'm trying to get more 4E discussion going here, not more discussion about 4E. :P
Really, sorry could not help my self.
But if you look at the pathing that they are doing usually doing in the 4e phb you have two to three choices per class thats it. Cleric is a good Exp. you are either a holy warrior or a healer no in between.
thats what i mean by cookie cutter.
Btw I love the fact that only one class can use plate without spending a feat and it not the fighter.
Really, sorry could not help my self.But if you look at the pathing that they are doing usually doing in the 4e phb you have two to three choices per class thats it. Cleric is a good Exp. you are either a holy warrior or a healer no in between.
thats what i mean by cookie cutter.
Btw I love the fact that only one class can use plate without spending a feat and it not the fighter.
I noticed Fighters don't start with proficiency in Plate as well, and found that an interesting change from previous editions.
That said, the two sample build presented at the start of each class are analgous to the sample builds given in 3E. In no way are they a straight jacket that limits your character, and you aren't required to take them.
More generally, Clerics get a lot of abilities but in a general sense, most are either ranged spell attacks or melee strikes. But you're not limited to one or the other, and I'd think most Clerics would want at lesat some mix of them. I know I'd want to have some ability in busting heads in case I find myself holy symbol deep in bad guys.
A shorter version of my above post: You can absolutely play a Cleric in-between holy warrior and healer. I think you'd be shooting yourself in the foot not to!
Cheers! :)
PS: I appreciate the apology. It isn't offered too often around here, but I'll gladly accept it. :)
A few quick responses after one night of browsing the books:
• I'm rather surprised and a bit disappointed that so few skills have "Trained Only" uses.
• I hope someday to learn how the multiclass rules evolved, because the final implementation seems, charitably, to be pretty sub-optimal. In particular, paragon paths provide some pretty nifty benefits that you give up entirely by going for a multiclass instead of a paragon path. I suspect most multiclassing satisfaction will be gained by taking a paragon path of your minor class.
• I wish the Feats tables separated out at least Channel Divinity feats, possibly racial feats as well. It'd make browsing these enormous lists quite a bit easier.
• As an Eberron GM, I flipped straight to the entries on Shifters, Doppelgangers, and Warforged as PCs in the back of the MM. It's very odd that they called one of the two Shifter varieties Razorclaw when the abilities they gave it are CLEARLY Longstrider. =)
• I'm not sure yet whether Rogue or Wizard will be the class of choice for my players who like at-will abilities. Both are pretty compelling on that front, though.
• I really like skill checks feeding into rituals. It gives a nice taste of the often requested skill-based magic system without requiring a bunch of spellcasting-specific skills.
• I love the Combat chapter. Really nice summary of how the various maneuvers work, with bullet-pointed highlights and a couple of sentences after each to clarify and elaborate. Very clear and well put together.
• On browsing through the MM and just the briefest skimming of the DMG, I've started to come up with a plan of attack for converting Curse of the Crimson Throne to 4e. 2010, baby!
I'll be playing the fighter in Keep on the Shadowfell tonight. My first shot at playing D&D after a year and a half as GM of Age of Worms and a brief side of Hook Mountain Massacre. I'm looking forward to actually putting all this stuff into practice.
Really, sorry could not help my self.But if you look at the pathing that they are doing usually doing in the 4e phb you have two to three choices per class thats it. Cleric is a good Exp. you are either a holy warrior or a healer no in between.
thats what i mean by cookie cutter.
Btw I love the fact that only one class can use plate without spending a feat and it not the fighter.
I noticed Fighters don't start with proficiency in Plate as well, and found that an interesting change from previous editions.
That said, the two sample build presented at the start of each class are analgous to the sample builds given in 3E. In no way are they a straight jacket that limits your character, and you aren't required to take them.
More generally, Clerics get a lot of abilities but in a general sense, most are either ranged spell attacks or melee strikes. But you're not limited to one or the other, and I'd think most Clerics would want at lesat some mix of them. I know I'd want to have some ability in busting heads in case I find myself holy symbol deep in bad guys.
A shorter version of my above post: You can absolutely play a Cleric in-between holy warrior and healer. I think you'd be shooting yourself in the foot not to!
Cheers! :)
PS: I appreciate the apology. It isn't offered too often around here, but I'll gladly accept it. :)
Again i grovel, i went back and reread the section on that my falt Hey this it the gut reaction post. I an still not liking the feel of the game is going. But hey that my opinion. I still am seing major isues try to retro any thing from earlier editions with out a lot of work.
One of the things i am noticing is that you are locked a lot more into a set play style/lack of on the fly changes exspecialy for casters
but as i said these are my early reactions
I was surprised at how often Trained Only came up as I flipped through the Skills chapter myself (that is, I expected it more!)
As for the multiclass thing, I do think a lot of versatility is going to be through opening up another 4 PP options. I don't like that you essentially have to be a Ranger or Warlock to take one of their PPs though. As a DM, allowing them to be taken by anyone with the multiclass feats seems like a house rule I'd probably be ok with.
Cheers! :)
Again i grovel, i went back and reread the section on that my falt Hey this it the gut reaction post. I an still not liking the feel of the game is going. But hey that my opinion. I still am seing major isues try to retro any thing from earlier editions with out a lot of work.
One of the things i am noticing is that you are locked a lot more into a set play style/lack of on the fly changes exspecialy for casters
but as i said these are my early reactions
No need to grovel chum. Ask around, I'm a nice bug-faced guy!
For the most part, 4E does represent a large scale back of what previous casting classes could do. This is offset by the large scale forward of what non-casters could do.
If you're looking for versatility check out the Wizard. His leftover vancian roots means they get to always pick two Daily or Utility spells, whenever someone else would pick one. With a feat, you get to pick three, which would probably give you a large amount of variety in your daily abilities.
Also, I think using the free retrain every level will be pretty popular, both to always keep your powers up-to-level, but also to trade out powers that just weren't as good as you hoped.
If you'd like to try converting something from an older edition, start a thread asking for help. I'm sure someone here would be happy to chime in, especially since several posters here have/have access to a copy of the books now.
Cheers! :)
I pre-ordered the core set and all of you got it. I have not release is June 6th, guess this is a Europe thing? Or will I just have to wait
Some stores were just too stupid (or maybe they just didn't care?) and put the books up for sale before release date. Some online stores were too stupid (ok, these guys ALWAYS ship stuff early, they just don't care) and shipped out their preorders early.
And some people supposedly downloaded a leaked pirated copy. But us fine posters at Paizo don't do that sort of stuff.
So the sad thing is, you'll likely have to wait, unless you want to scour the stores in your local area or try to switch your preorder really fast (I know some who did so, and claimed the status screen showed their orders as having shipped ...)
I think you'll find plenty of people willing to answer questions if you'd like to ask though. :)
Cheers! :)
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I've had the new rulebooks for a couple of days and I've come to the conclusion that 4e is definitely not for me. The mechanics look solid enough and certain sections of the new rules are extremely well written (the combat chapter in particular is a delight to behold). Much of the artwork in the new books is beautiful, some of it far superior to anything in 3.5. And the organization of the PHB is outstanding. But the overall feel of the new system doesn't appeal to me at all. I know that this is a fairly subjective thing, but the game seems a little bit too slick and antiseptic to me. It's not that the new edition isn't real D&D - it is easy enough to see where some of the changes have come from - it's just that it feels kind of.... claustrophobic. It feels far less generic than any previous edition of the game - the designers obviously want you to play a particular style of campaign. Unfortunately the implied style of play doesn't suit my group. The MMORPG influences are strong and can be a little bit intrusive at times - this may be a bit unkind, but I find myself wondering whether some of the design decisions in 4e were driven by the needs of the digital initiative and the desire of Hasbro to license new computer games off the system.
I've had the new rulebooks for a couple of days and I've come to the conclusion that 4e is definitely not for me. The mechanics look solid enough and certain sections of the new rules are extremely well written (the combat chapter in particular is a delight to behold). Much of the artwork in the new books is beautiful, some of it far superior to anything in 3.5. And the organization of the PHB is outstanding. But the overall feel of the new system doesn't appeal to me at all. I know that this is a fairly subjective thing, but the game seems a little bit too slick and antiseptic to me. It's not that the new edition isn't real D&D - it is easy enough to see where some of the changes have come from - it's just that it feels kind of.... claustrophobic. It feels far less generic than any previous edition of the game - the designers obviously want you to play a particular style of campaign. Unfortunately the implied style of play doesn't suit my group. The MMORPG influences are strong and can be a little bit intrusive at times - this may be a bit unkind, but I find myself wondering whether some of the design decisions in 4e were driven by the needs of the digital initiative and the desire of Hasbro to license new computer games off the system.
I don't have anything to add to your post, but I wanted to thank you for stating your dislike of the system without insulting everyone who enjoys it. That's a rare skill you're displaying there. ;)
Cheers! :)
The actual combat rules are a meager 30 pages and they are clear and very streamlined.
Combat rules were only 28 pages in 3.5. ;)
In 10 years when 5e comes outYour naivety is cute. Other then that, thanks for sharing.
Alright, I'm coming back in 10 years to see who was naive and who was cynical. ;)
I'm in agreement about the splatbook thing though - they come out way too quickly.
The actual combat rules are a meager 30 pages and they are clear and very streamlined.Combat rules were only 28 pages in 3.5. ;)
Yes, but were they as pretty? :)
I'd argue putting out splat books at a rate that Wizards puts out splat books is the bane of any game system. No one that has to survive on their own income can afford every WotC book ever put out. But they keep doing it...
This'll be interesting to watch.
I thought perhaps WotC was changing their business model, using D&D to generate DDI subscriptions (that are going to be virtually all profit). On the one hand, WotC seems to be jumping back onto the splatbook wagon with alarming speed and enthusiasm (IMO).
Time will tell.
At first glance the 4E Fighter is pure smex.
I thought perhaps WotC was changing their business model, using D&D to generate DDI subscriptions (that are going to be virtually all profit).
Pun intended? ;)
Actually, if they have to pay for programmers, updates, and new content, it certainly won't be all profit. Of course, if they treat it the same way they currently treat the online "magazines" then, I'm guessing there won't be much cost factor at all.
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The core books are nicely done. The artwork is first rate. The over all look is bright. The organization is much better. If you like a simplified game system, this is the one for you....until you get to the Powers of each class. This type of system isn't for me. It's more like a superhero game than an adventure game. Your abilities don't increase because your knowledge or experience does, its because you get access to new POWERS. Sure, it's a way of looking at things, but the basic assumption MAKES this a different approach and therefore a different game. I'm not going to call down the wrath of EVIL gods on those who like 4e. Just not my cup of tea.
The books ARE pretty though. :)
Alright, I'm coming back in 10 years to see who was naive and who was cynical. ;)
[bunny trail]
Truth be told, no game developer is talking about 10 years between editions anymore. Except Mongoose and that is only in reference to Traveller, but considering how fast 2nd ed Babylon 5 and 2nd ed Conan came out, I don't believe it. 5-7 years is considered optimal.Even if you consider 3.0 and 3.5 to be a single edition (and I don't), that's 8 years. 3.5 came out 5 years ago and people are saying that it died under the weight of its own splat books. 4E hits the ground running considering with an average of 3 products per month, the exact same pace they were putting out products until 4E's announcement. There's no ramp up time, no taking time to focus on a particular setting (since all settings are only getting 1 CS book, 1 player's guide, and 1 adventure). That means that all their books will be applicible to all settings. So there will be an even greater demand for books.
4E will die under its own weight in 5 years (if not sooner).
[end bunny trail]
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The actual combat rules are a meager 30 pages and they are clear and very streamlined.Combat rules were only 28 pages in 3.5. ;)
True, but they are 28 densely packed and poorly organized pages. The 4e combat rules should be used as a master class in rules presentation. Even if you don't like the rules it's hard to argue against the ease of use and clarity of design.
The 4e combat rules should be used as a master class in rules presentation. Even if you don't like the rules it's hard to argue against the ease of use and clarity of design.
I'll take your word for it as I'm not likely to see them for quite some time. :)
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So, got my hands on copies of the 3 core books today and gave them a quick look, as in, spent about an hour and a half scanning every page (with eyeballs, not a computer), stopping occasionally for a more detailed perusal. And since you asked ...
I was stunned. At how incredibly bad it was. Now, full disclosure -- I was turned off of 4e months ago, when my disagreement with the announced changes reached a critical mass. I still fully intended to pick up 4e, and held out a vague hope that the system, if not the fluff, would blow me away. I like to think I made my choice without closing my mind.
Am I ever glad I didn't waste $60 ordering the core rulebooks from Amazon. I'm still so shocked it's hard to formulate coherent thoughts about the books. It wasn't just the complete lack of flavor, the lackluster art, the gawdawful presentation, or the gross (over-)simplification of rules ... it was the mind-boggling fact that a great number of designers for whom I used to have a lot of respect were involved with it. It's just so ever-loving bad. And I don't seriously believe that, at 28 years old, I'm such an out-of-touch grognard that I've fallen out of the "target demographic." I've been a pretty prolific customer of d20 products from both WotC and 3PPs, and I think my tastes are fairly mainstream, with a slight preference for gritty, old-school sword-and-sorcery. But this ... not to flay the rotting meat off the "4E=WoW" horse, but the PHB and MM, especially, read like video game manuals, not an RPG.
Normally, I'd keep all that to myself, but the OP did ask for first gut reactions. I think that's the last I'll say on the subject of 4E, other than: Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you Erik, James, Jason, Lisa and all of Paizo. You sooooo made the right decision. D&D is dead. Long live Pathfinder!
Normally, I'd keep all that to myself, but the OP did ask for first gut reactions.
Yep, and thank you for your honest reply. I can't say I agree with you, but a gut reaction is what a gut reaction is. D&D 4e is a different game and I believe Pathfinder is keeping alive a very respectable tradition. I like 4e, but kudos to Paizo for keeping 3e alive!
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Normally, I'd keep all that to myself, but the OP did ask for first gut reactions.Yep, and thank you for your honest reply. I can't say I agree with you, but a gut reaction is what a gut reaction is. D&D 4e is a different game and I believe Pathfinder is keeping alive a very respectable tradition. I like 4e, but kudos to Paizo for keeping 3e alive!
Ok, so breaking my vow of 4e silence already. But I ran across my Star Wars Saga Edition books tonight and it hit me all over -- it's hard to think that the same company that put out, and continues to put out SWSE (which I generally dig) at the same time developed 4e. I think my vague hope for 4e was centered on an (obviously misguided) notion that it would essentially be DnD-Saga Edition. Soooo not the case, alas.
I haven't dug into the PH and DMG much so far, but I'm quite underwhelmed by the MM. Oh, sure, the variations on some of the creatures could be useful, but a lot of breadth has been sacrificed. Can anyone find lions, or tigers, or elephants, or a pegasus anywhere in the book? I can't even find myself a plain, old fashioned dog. I suppose I could use the stats for a gray wolf for the dog.
Anybody know how many MMs I've got to wait out to get any of those critters? I'm not missing something am I?
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So what's the over/under set at? 7? 8? Or will WotC be sold off by Hasbro and whoever buys them automatically do a new edition in 5 years or so?In 10 years when 5e comes outYour naivety is cute. Other then that, thanks for sharing.
2010 4.5 and a massive reissue of their own gult of splat books.
2012 Hasbro gives up as the sales, while massive by RPG standards, just are even close to being imporatant to bottom line. 5th editon will be an online only game, much like WOW.
P.S. GSL revoked about the time of 4.5, WotC steals any good ideas that came out of 3PP
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My gut reaction to reading the 4E books was pretty disappointing. I think it's going to cause a worse rift in the gaming subculture than vampire. I don't think I could play in a campaign with someone who grew up with the philosophy espoused in the DMG and PHB.
I also think it's going to be very, very hard to find decent GMs for 4E. There doesn't seem to much reward for running the game. Almost all of the creative power the DM traditionally has has been stripped away, and there no support for doing any of the things that players can't do in computer games.
I'm so glad for Pathfinder.
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True, but they are 28 densely packed and poorly organized pages. The 4e combat rules should be used as a master class in rules presentation. Even if you don't like the rules it's hard to argue against the ease of use and clarity of design.The actual combat rules are a meager 30 pages and they are clear and very streamlined.Combat rules were only 28 pages in 3.5. ;)
I say you can apply the "standing on the shoulders of giants" proverb to the 4th edition designers.
They had a lot of time to see and analyze the bugs in the 3.0 and 3.5 rules presentation.As a sidenote: There is still some time to digest the books and use the rules presentation as a template for Pathfinder RPG!
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I also think it's going to be very, very hard to find decent GMs for 4E. There doesn't seem to much reward for running the game. Almost all of the creative power the DM traditionally has has been stripped away, and there no support for doing any of the things that players can't do in computer games.
Gailbraithe, can you elaborate on the above statement? I thought 4th was meant to give the DM more power the easy create adversaries (easy monster creation) and social & skill based encounters (skill checks).
I do not have the books, so this is a real question.
You can't stop a good DM.
I think what he is getting at is with this system new DM's will has less in the way of creativity. I could be wrong but thats how it sounded to me.