Arcane Bond is broken


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I discovered this while playtesting a Wizard at various levels (1,4,7,10) in 3.P.0.2 rules, which don't seem to have changed notably for wizards in 3.P.0.3.

The problems:
(1) The wizard was already really good, it didn't need the help

(2) The versatility of grabbing any one spell you have in your spell book is crazy good. Its like always having the right spell for any situation. This vastly increases a wizard's power at low levels by making them less reliant on careful planning, and lets them basically have a free floating spell slot at higher levels which, while less important to their overall power, means they can focus their spell selection more than otherwise.

(3) The ability to craft at *half normal crafting cost* (1/4 market price) is obscene. Even in the worst case scenario (secondary unrelated ability in the wrong slot), it only costs ~.56 the market value of an item of that ability. (1.5*1.5*0.25 = 9/16 ~= .56) A wizard need never learn an item crafting feat with that kind of deal - the savings in cash are insignificant. Instead, she can just overload her arcane bonded item with abilities. (A fine covering of Explosive Runes and Drawmij's make it unstealable at 11th level, and most situations which would involve a precious bonded item being stolen would also involve all the wizard's gear being stolen, so the risk of putting all her enchantments on one item isn't really larger than spreading it out amongst her equipment).

Don't get me wrong, Wizards can already go to crazytown in the rules pretty easily. But with arcane bond it starts happening even earlier and easier than normal.

Sovereign Court

Squirrelloid wrote:
Its like always having the right spell for any situation.

Actually, it's like having the right spell ONCE for ONE situation.

I made and ran Pathfinder characters at PaizoCon and found that the wizard could have a useful, fun item that is uniquely his/hers/its. I would prune their school-based abilities long before getting rid of this wonderful innovation.


Squirrelloid wrote:

The problems:

(1) The wizard was already really good, it didn't need the help

Most of the classes didn't need help, they just needed incentive to keep you from exploring other base classes as alternatives.

Squirrelloid wrote:
(2) The versatility of grabbing any one spell you have in your spell book is crazy good.

If you are referring to what I believe you are referring to, you can only do it once per day. There is a feat in Complete Mage that is similar to this. It is not as big of a deal as you might think. I played a wizard from level 1 to 7 in a campaign with this feat and rarely ever used it. Not having to have a spell slot open increases its utility, but not significantly.

Squirrelloid wrote:
(3) The ability to craft at *half normal crafting cost* (1/4 market price) is obscene.

Hmmm, I had interpreted that as meaning half market price, but I may be wrong. Still, a wizard who puts all his eggs in one basket will be sorely disappointed if such an item gets destroyed on stolen. Not to mention that only certain properties can be added to certain items, and when adding additional properties it always requires DM approval. A DM might find it reasonable to allow your bonded amulet to be an amulet of natural armor, but I doubt most DMs would let function as a staff of fire as well.

If you are right about the cost, they should fix that so that it costs just as much to enchant an arcane bonded item as a normal item.


Dario Nardi wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:
Its like always having the right spell for any situation.

Actually, it's like having the right spell ONCE for ONE situation.

I made and ran Pathfinder characters at PaizoCon and found that the wizard could have a useful, fun item that is uniquely his/hers/its. I would prune their school-based abilities long before getting rid of this wonderful innovation.

You realize its wizards who make the 15-minute workday possible? Having the right spell once per day means once per encounter they need to invoke it - if they use it, they can always choose to rest to regain it. (Certainly by mid levels this is true, and by high levels they just planeshift to a plane where 1 day = 6 seconds on the prime and are back and fully rested in moments). Only at low levels is there any conceivable limit, and by low levels I mean up until something like 4th.


Squirrelloid wrote:
You realize its wizards who make the 15-minute workday possible? Having the right spell once per day means once per encounter they need to invoke it - if they use it, they can always choose to rest to regain it. (Certainly by mid levels this is true, and by high levels they just planeshift to a plane where 1 day = 6 seconds on the prime and are back and fully rested in moments). Only at low levels is there any conceivable limit, and by low levels I mean up until something like 4th.

Paizo at least has been pretty good about creating living dungeons, that is dungeons of monsters who don't just sit there waiting for the party to come to them. This is a classic argument about Vancian magic though, and I have a classic response. Resource management is an important aspect of the game because you can't just rest anytime you feel like it. That was the reason things like wandering monster tables were included in the game.


airwalkrr wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:
You realize its wizards who make the 15-minute workday possible? Having the right spell once per day means once per encounter they need to invoke it - if they use it, they can always choose to rest to regain it. (Certainly by mid levels this is true, and by high levels they just planeshift to a plane where 1 day = 6 seconds on the prime and are back and fully rested in moments). Only at low levels is there any conceivable limit, and by low levels I mean up until something like 4th.
Paizo at least has been pretty good about creating living dungeons, that is dungeons of monsters who don't just sit there waiting for the party to come to them. This is a classic argument about Vancian magic though, and I have a classic response. Resource management is an important aspect of the game because you can't just rest anytime you feel like it. That was the reason things like wandering monster tables were included in the game.

Ropetrick

Teleport
Planeshift

Wandering Monsters?


airwalkrr wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:

The problems:

(1) The wizard was already really good, it didn't need the help
Most of the classes didn't need help, they just needed incentive to keep you from exploring other base classes as alternatives.

The wizard still needed no help. Just accept its a 5 level class that's moving into a prestige class. Because it is.

airwalkrr wrote:


Squirrelloid wrote:
(2) The versatility of grabbing any one spell you have in your spell book is crazy good.
If you are referring to what I believe you are referring to, you can only do it once per day. There is a feat in Complete Mage that is similar to this. It is not as big of a deal as you might think. I played a wizard from level 1 to 7 in a campaign with this feat and rarely ever used it. Not having to have a spell slot open increases its utility, but not significantly.

The CM feat is a big deal, something which hasn't gone unremarked elsewhere. Not having to burn a spell slot for it also means you have +1 to your highest level spells available per day.

airwalkrr wrote:


Squirrelloid wrote:
(3) The ability to craft at *half normal crafting cost* (1/4 market price) is obscene.

Hmmm, I had interpreted that as meaning half market price, but I may be wrong. Still, a wizard who puts all his eggs in one basket will be sorely disappointed if such an item gets destroyed on stolen. Not to mention that only certain properties can be added to certain items, and when adding additional properties it always requires DM approval. A DM might find it reasonable to allow your bonded amulet to be an amulet of natural armor, but I doubt most DMs would let function as a staff of fire as well.

If you are right about the cost, they should fix that so that it costs just as much to enchant an arcane bonded item as a normal item.

Half normal cost for crafting is 1/4 market. Because normal cost when crafting is already half market cost. Yes, it should be fixed - just the ability to enchant the thing without the proper feats is fairly awesome.

As to requiring DM approval - the magic item ability cost table is the standard rules and players should be able to assume them. Further, enchanting on a non-standard slot doesn't require DM permission, merely that you pay a mark-up (ie, costs 3/2 times as much, as I accounted for). And additional properties are also clearly accounted for in the rules and don't say they require DM permission. At some level, everything requires DM permission, and things which have specific rules associated with them are all equal in that regard - you may as well say *playing a wizard* requires DM permission. Its true, but asinine.


Squirrelloid wrote:


Ropetrick
Teleport
Planeshift

Wandering Monsters?

Planeshift??? Have you ever seen a Wandering Monster Table for other planes? If your DM let's you get away with that...

Ropetrick. Ok. But only in Dungeons without intelligent inhabitants ("What do you mean, there is a barricade here? It wasn't there 9 hours ago!") or the wilderness, when time is not an issue. Note that you have to be at least level 9 to use it that way, at first...

Teleport. VERY usefull. Has a weight limit. Not always reliable. So burn all your spells... to realize there is something preventing you to teleport?


Fischkopp wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:


Ropetrick
Teleport
Planeshift

Wandering Monsters?

Planeshift??? Have you ever seen a Wandering Monster Table for other planes? If your DM let's you get away with that...

Ropetrick. Ok. But only in Dungeons without intelligent inhabitants ("What do you mean, there is a barricade here? It wasn't there 9 hours ago!") or the wilderness, when time is not an issue. Note that you have to be at least level 9 to use it that way, at first...

Teleport. VERY usefull. Has a weight limit. Not always reliable. So burn all your spells... to realize there is something preventing you to teleport?

Eventually you planeshift to your own personal demiplane - because that's what high level characters do. Which has no wandering monsters.

Ropetrick isn't a barrier. its an invisible portal to an extradimensional space, and if your party has half a brain you don't place it where monsters are going to blunder into it. Like 30' in the air. I don't care how intelligent a monster is, if it has no reason to be looking for a ropetrick it isn't going to find one.

Teleport has a person limit more relevantly, which by 9th level (when you start casting it) carries everyone in a 4-person party. And teleport doesn't just fail - especially in 3.P when the Wizard can cast Detect Magic basically at will, he knows if there is ambient magic (seriously, its the most useful cantrip there is). Having teleport just randomly fail is 'great' railroading - spell failure should be a logical and predictable consequence of 'environmental' factors (ongoing spells or physical conditions), not just DM-fiatted to stop players from taking tactical advantage of their options. And a wizard can take these conditions into consideration and plan accordingly. Of course, given that an extended ropetrick at 9th level lasts 18 hours, the wizard doesn't need to burn a valuable 5th level spell slot when a 2nd level spell slot will suffice.

And those are just 3 examples of spells that enable the 15-minute workday. Stopping *all* of the possibilities is railroading of the worst sort, because the wizard seriously has dozens of options at this point that all work differently.

Of course, the wizard can just go charm the local orc chieftain and convince him exploring those abandoned ruins (re: run into traps, distract monsters, etc...) could generate some ph4t l00tz, and the party can just breeze through the dungeon. That strategy should sound familiar - it was how the first victory over the Tomb of Horrors was accomplished way back in 1st edition. And strategies like that accomplish the 15-minute workday in a different manner - by reducing the number of difficulties the party actually has to deal with directly (and therefore the amount of work they actually do).


Anyways... Isn't the point how we can improve the Pathfinder rules?

Arcane Bond as written IS kindof absurdly overpowered, certainly so when compared to the Familiar, which it should be equivalent to (since you're supposed to choose between them.) It's not like the Wizard would be really hurting if Arcane Bond was just taken away.

I think a really good limit for the Bonded Item would be to say that the cheap/easy enchanting on the Bonded Item ONLY CAN APPLY "APPROPRIATE" EFFECTS FOR THE ITEM SLOT TYPE. If the Wizard wants to take the actual Feats necessary and pay the full cost, they can add any enchantment as normal, but they can't overload it with just the Bonded Item class feature.

That also makes it more flavorful, since it makes the choice of item meaningful, i.e. weapon, rod, ring, amulet, all 'focus' the Wizard toward the appropriate effects of those item slots (although if they spend the Feats, of course they can enchant whatever they want.) Otherwise, there's not much reason for a Wizard to take ANY Item Craft Feats (Potions except of course), unless they want to be the whole party's item enchanter.

As for the bonus spontaneous spell, that's crazy overpowered as well. At MINIMUM, it should be limited to something like 1 level less than the Wizards most powerful spell. I actually thing something like HALF the level of their best spell would be more appropriate. And that would still be a majorly beneficial power! In fact, I think it would be warranted to say that the 1/2 cost enchanting on the Bonded Item should only function as if the Wizard were half his caster level, which somewhat limits the power boost of the Bonded Item. If the Wizard wants to take the appropriate feats, they can still enchant at full caster level, but it won't be a "Freebie" that every Wizard gets.

I think the *idea* of a Bonded Item is great, and gives an alternative flavor for Wizards who don't want an animal/creature familiar. But it shouldn't be significantly more POWERFUL than the standard familiar, and that means it shouldn't significantly expand on the Wizards' class abilities... Letting the Wizard load out on item enchantments while giving them a bonus spell of any level they can cast (so, basically their highest spell level) able to be cast SPONTANEOUSLY... is just WAY TOO MUCH. This ability should be a great flavor/story element and a MINOR focused ability boost, like the Familiar achieves succesfully.

Liberty's Edge

Quandary wrote:
As for the bonus spontaneous spell, that's crazy overpowered as well. At MINIMUM, it should be limited to something like 1 level less than the Wizards most powerful spell. I actually thing something like HALF the level of their best spell would be more appropriate. And that would still be a majorly beneficial power!

My feeling, as well.

Alpha 3, p. 49
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard knows, just as if the wizard had cast it."

I'm sure that some players would argue that the object can cast a spell of any level, even if the wizard can't cast it yet. Also, the cost of materials components can be argued. I'd like to clarify this to:

Tweak
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard knows and can cast, just as if the wizard had cast it. spell. When a bonded object duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must provide that component."

Alpha 3, Limited Wish, p. 110
"For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.
- Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower,
provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
[...]"

Apart from the prohibited school bit, the object functions quite like a free limited wish with the (higher than for the limited wish) level of the castable spell as the only limit. I'd be happy to see the spell level limited to 1 or even 2 less than the highest level the wizard can cast. Cantrips should be duplicated without limits, though.

And I still don't know the answer to that question. :-)


airwalkrr wrote:


Most of the classes didn't need help, they just needed incentive to keep you from exploring other base classes as alternatives.

Maybe...but the Arcane Bond item works exactly the same irrespective of how many levels of wizard you have (unlike a familiar, which is based on class levels for abilities).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:

tables were included in the game.

Ropetrick
Teleport
Planeshift

Wandering Monsters?

Among those three spells, Rope trick is the only one with absolutely reliable results. Teleport has the random failure chance, no matter how memorised your destination is; Plane Shift has a random appearance point of 1 - 500 miles from your chosen destination point if I recall.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would posit that some level based limit should be decided into how much power can be stuffed into the arcane bonded object. perhaps effective GP value (standard price) per level or per 5 levels?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
hogarth wrote:


<snip>...but the Arcane Bond item works exactly the same irrespective of how many levels of wizard you have (unlike a familiar, which is based on class levels for abilities).

maybe thats the solution to both the problems

limit the maximum gp that can be enchanted into the item to a function of the wizard level

limit the level of the spell that can be recalled to one less than the maximum level that can be cast by the wizard

or just say that the item acts like a ring of spell storing with a capacity of one spell....

Liberty's Edge

Perhaps it could be tweaked to make it more like a familiar by having it cause damage to the wizard if destroyed. And why would a wizard not take other Item Creation feats? The Bonded object only functions for them, it restricts the casting off spells unless worn or held(make a Spellcraft check vs. 20+ the spells level or lose the spell). It seems to me to function like a Pearl of Power. This doesnt seem like a huge increase to me.

Sovereign Court

aegrist13 wrote:
Perhaps it could be tweaked to make it more like a familiar by having it cause damage to the wizard if destroyed. And why would a wizard not take other Item Creation feats? The Bonded object only functions for them, it restricts the casting off spells unless worn or held(make a Spellcraft check vs. 20+ the spells level or lose the spell). It seems to me to function like a Pearl of Power. This doesnt seem like a huge increase to me.

Um they got rid of that, now neither do damage if destroyed (much to my chagrin)

Liberty's Edge

Then they need to put it back. It makes the item or familiar a prescious resource that's not to be used willy-nilly heedless of danger. If they don't, I'll have to house-rule it in my game.


I only did one playtest with a 6th level wizard, but I do agree with all three of Squirrelloid's points.

The free spell per day was powerful. However, I did greatly enjoy the flexiblity of knowing that once a day I could pull any spell out of my book. I think it added to the game experience, and should be kept. Essentially, it just saved me the cost of making a bunch of backup scrolls. Still, it is an significant bump in power and steps on the sorcerer's toes.

The cheap item creation was huge. I like the idea of being able to make one item without having the feats....but making it cheap was over the top.

In the end, I did end up feeling that the wizard was fine before...so with this plus the school powers they were given - they are far outclassing the Sorcerer. Yes I realize that the Arcane bloodline gives a sorcerer this bond option as well, but it doesn't mean as much to the sorcerer as it does to the wizard - the sorcerer never has to worry about not picking the right spells for the day...and doesn't have many to choose from anyway.

So...yes, maybe all of the changes do make the wizard balance better compared to the cleric or druid....but I think he has stretched out his lead over the sorcerer.


I've play tested the Wizard at 1st through 6th level, and 10th-11th level and 20th level (twice).

To begin, I usually play specialists in 3.5 (because of the extra spell per spell level per day). When I saw what they were doing with the Wizard in pathfinder, I was most excited about the bonded object.

Squirrelloid wrote:

I discovered this while playtesting a Wizard at various levels (1,4,7,10) in 3.P.0.2 rules, which don't seem to have changed notably for wizards in 3.P.0.3.

The problems:
(1) The wizard was already really good, it didn't need the help

True, the Wizard was already good... and his power level got reduced and increased. Overall did the Wizard's power level go up or down? The loss of 1 spell per day per spell level is a significant loss. The new school powers don't even come close to replicating that (first, there's no choice in the school powers, second they are based upon charisma, so the saves aren't going to be near as good).

The Bonded Object gives the wizard 1 spell/day of the Wizard's choice. That's great! But it's only once a day. If you rely upon this to get you out of a jam, you'll find yourself needing it more times than you can use it.

We did 2 level 20 encounters in my group. First was against a Red Dragon. I used the staff to repeat Mage's disjunction (which my DM took as being the same as casting Dispel Magic (not greater dispel magic, but dispel magic)) to debuff the dragon. Ultimately, it was defeated by casting a spell at the cleric who was holding a shield enchanted to reflect spells... the Dragon took his own spell, and that was it. The bonded item really didn't do much. Even if disjunction had worked as it should, all I would have accomplished was removing more of the dragon's buffs. He was still a fight.

The second fight was against a Terask. I forget what spell I used, but I found a spell that could damage the Terask, and I used the staff to pull that off one extra time. Then I used a pearl of power to do the same trick a third time. Of course, it wasn't the staff that stopped the terask. I used a Prysmatic Sphere and Timestop to give myself mobile casting to cause the Terask to attack me inside the sphere... and thus sent it to another plane.

In the level 10-11 use... the staff has been helpful in casting lower level utility spells I didn't prepare... as well as giving me a second shot with a higher level damage dealing spell (lightning leap). But this was a specialist wizard who lost 1 extra spell per day per level... so the gain of 1 spell per day isn't a gain at all.

The 1st through 6th level wizard is also using a bonded staff... and with gold hard to come by at those levels, without the 1/4 cost, I doubt I could afford to have enchanted my staff much at all. There have been days in that campaign where the staff hasn't been used. Others where I used the staff in one encounter, and had my friends asking me to cast this spell or that in the next encounter when I just couldn't... even with the staff, I couldn't prepare every spell.

Squirrelloid wrote:


(2) The versatility of grabbing any one spell you have in your spell book is crazy good. Its like always having the right spell for any situation. This vastly increases a wizard's power at low levels by making them less reliant on careful planning, and lets them basically have a free floating spell slot at higher levels which, while less important to their overall power, means they can focus their spell selection more than otherwise.

But, see above re: my experiences. This only works once a day... and if you blow the unprepared spell too early and were relying upon that flexibility when you prepared your spells or made your scrolls, you could be in serious trouble later on in the day. Careful planning is still needed... in fact, you need to be more careful, since you've lost a spell per level per day if you're a specialist (and at low levels that hurts).

Squirrelloid wrote:


(3) The ability to craft at *half normal crafting cost* (1/4 market price) is obscene.

First, there are restrictions, only the wizard can use the item, and I don't believe it can be sold. There are also restrictions based upon caster level. I personally do think there should be limits on what you can put on a particular item. I don't think a bonded staff can also be a staff of Int. +6. But, even if it could, the caster level restrictions should help to balance out the power level.

Maybe it's from playing pathfinder, but it seems like the first 6 levels of a campaign (from two different pathfinder games) include very little loot (in one game, the DM just gave us a pile of gold because we were so far behind the expected character wealth). So having the ability to enchant cheaply does a couple things. First, it cuts down on the time spent enchanting so the bonded item can be improved more quickly. Second, it balances out against those games where the gold just isn't there.

There are still some questions here... can an item be re-enchanted (can you turn a staff of fire into a staff of power?), what happens if you lose it (does your bonded staff of fire return, or do you just bond with a new item and start over from scratch?).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm currently playing a wizard in a savage tide campaign and my DM is letting me use the arcane bond mechanic to test it out(though otherwise we are generally pretty much straight 3.5).

Right now we are about 5th level, and I can say that while the ability to pull a spell out of my book(we treat it like I am casting it, so if its a higher level then I can cast, no go) has been very useful, its hardly game breaking. Basically it means that if I've burned knock for the day and we come across a locked door that we can't bash down(no rogue) we've got it covered and we aren't just holding up there for the night. Or if I have prepped defensively(abjurer so I normally do) then when we hit that big fight I can still toss out an attack spell if its needed. Its only a one shot thing so its almost always conserved until after all my other spells are out, unless it is really needed for something else, to cross an obstacle for instance.

I haven't touched on the enchantment part of it too much, but as my object is a staff I'm pretty torn between the idea of either making it defending and slowly adding pluses to it to make myself a bit more survivable, or just counting on my abjurations for that and adding some spells to it like a traditional staff to increase my versatility. There isn't anything listed in the Alpha that says I couldn't do both, but that quickly ends up being a pretty hefty cost and the staff would soak all my share of treasure.

Now, with all that said, there are some distinct drawbacks to having the bonded item that limit its power some. No one has mentioned the fact that if the item is not equipped that there is spell failure. Not the normal percentage, but a skill check required to cast -any- spell, not just the one from the item, if your bonded item isn't currently at hand. That means if your bonded item is a ring, you are giving up your ring slot. If its a weapon, you are saying that weapon is always going to be in your hand.

So in my characters case, that means that if I want to hit someone at range without wasting a spell, I need to drop my staff and pull my bow, then when I want to cast again, I have to use another move action to pick up my staff first or else I risk having it fizzle on me. This chance will get lower in later levels, but it is still there and its still a steady risk.

This means that in a world where arcane bonded items are somewhat common, sundering a wizards items becomes a very viable tactic. It doesn't just take out that extra spell he can cast in a day, it cripples him until he can refresh that bond, a process that costs a scaling amount of money as he levels not to mention that it wastes whatever money he put into enchanting it.

All in all, I love arcane bond and the flavor it builds in. Below are the suggestions I would make, generally just to clarify things.

-Bonus spell is any spell the wizard knows and can prepare, cast as if he cast it himself.

-Bonded item detects as magic even when not yet enchanted, lets it show as a target to enemies who take the time to look or watch the party in advance.

-Bonded item is simply a normal(or perhaps masterwork) item in the hands of anyone other then the wizard. The wizard gets to craft for half price, but it only works for him.

-State whether the item is masterwork or not from the beginning, for purposes of enchanting. Most first level characters do not have the money for masterwork gear. My character ended up handing over his staff to our bruiser when we got some extra cash so the bruiser could break it, then rebonded with a Masterwork staff. Would be nice to know whether that sort of thing is needed or not, preferably not.

-Clarify 'wizard level' for the purpose of prestige classes. People seem eager to be able to cast spells from it that are beyond what their character can cast yet, but look at the re-bonding costs as being only based on the wizard level. Either the item should be limited in such a way that you can only cast spells from it based on how high of a level wizard you are, or both the casting and re-bonding cost should be based on your total caster level, perhaps re-bonding even being based on character level.

Just some thoughts from my experiences with it.

-Tarlane

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One last suggestion I'd make. the arcane bond should be to a fresh object, mainly one that has no pre-existing enchantment or that if there is such pre-existing enchantment, make it count towards a caster limit.


I had made up a bunch of rules for bonded items for the Elven Netbook, well over a year ago, and it was assumed that the Elf had to fashion the item himself, from scratch. However, I also included negative rules for the destruction of said item, and a way of 'atuning' a powerful magic item to the mage. Unfortunately, I can't find the rules for those two PrCs I did in the project index, and I'm not at home right now, so I can't post a link or provide more.

I believe both were 'time penalties', with a Wizard having to wait a number of weeks to fashion a new one, or atune himself to an existing item. The one cool aspect of it I do remember was that the higher level you were, the longer it would take (so Higher level wizards would be greatere penalized). The theory behind that was that the more powerful a wizard became, the more 'unique' his particular 'resonance' became, and the harder it was to atune something to it (Basically, a Wizard becomes more complex as he gets older).

I would definately put back in the negative rules for losing a familiar, and apply the same to a bonded item, and also add level restrictions to how many abilities can be added. One way of controlling some of the over-powering is by a compromise of what others here have posted - A wizard can pick ANY spell from his spell list one level lower, or pick a spell of his maximum level that he must chose at the outset of the day (when memorizing his spells). That should help put a cap on that "ANY spell, ANY time" effect - its one or the other.

I'd also add in some rules that Liches must use their bonded item as their phylactory, but thats just a flavor thing.

Another unique 'catch' that might be fun - A Wizard's bonded item can cast any spell he knows and is able to cast, but it cost him a number of HP = spell level. Now his life-force is tied to his casting and his item, which makes using said 'free spell' not such an easy choice.

And lastly, and this should be obvious, the spell a wizard can cast through his bonded item should ONLY be from the spells granted him by his Wizard levels - meaning that if he decides to PrC out at 5, he's only going to get a 3rd level spell from his bonded item, FOREVER (unless he later takes more levels of Wizard).


Squirrelloid wrote:

Ropetrick

Teleport
Planeshift

Wandering Monsters?

I should think it should go without saying that these spells do not solve the problem quite so elegantly. With ropetrick you are still in the dungeon, and likely the inhabitants have noticed that a large number of bodies have begun to mysteriously pile up. Most dungeons also have informants of some kind to tell them there are adventurers around. Meaning when you pop out of the rope trick the next morning, you will find the dungeon's defenses quite improved. Dungeon inhabitants might even be on the offensive, on high alert, and moving throughout the dungeon in search of the party. The added danger counterbalances the benefit of being able to rest.

With teleport you can exit the dungeon, but you either have to travel back, giving the denizens even more time than they would have had before to prepare for your return, or you have to teleport back, expending resources for the trip back but still giving them warning.

Planeshift is just dangerous. I almost always roll a random encounter from the planar tables when players planeshift. Planeshift is a means of travel, not escape. Even Elysium can be dangerous depending on the circumstances.

Additionally, just because there are ways to make it to a safe place to rest doesn't mean the job is done. Many dungeons are sources of attacks on villagers which are likely to be performed in an act of retaliation if the PCs suddenly vamoose. There are countless consequences for leaving a job unfinished to rest. I shouldn't have to explain them all to you if you are an experienced player or DM. These consequences are what make the 15-minute workday unfeasible and foolhardy for wizards. Spellcasters have to judiciously plan their spell usage to avoid them.

Squirrelloid wrote:
The wizard still needed no help. Just accept its a 5 level class that's moving into a prestige class. Because it is.

Then apparently the wizard did need help if it is so inevitable that the wizard will move into a prestige class. Thank you for proving my point.

Squirrelloid wrote:
As to requiring DM approval - the magic item ability cost table is the standard rules and players should be able to assume them.

It is explicitly stated that these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. As such, the DM always retains veto power. The game is not a player's world.


MarkusTay wrote:
And lastly, and this should be obvious, the spell a wizard can cast through his bonded item should ONLY be from the spells granted him by his Wizard levels - meaning that if he decides to PrC out at 5, he's only going to get a 3rd level spell from his bonded item, FOREVER (unless he later takes more levels of Wizard).

That might be a good way to balance this ability. Although I still think the fact that specialists lose the bonus spell per level already more than balances this aspect.


airwalkrr wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:

Ropetrick

Teleport
Planeshift

Wandering Monsters?

I should think it should go without saying that these spells do not solve the problem quite so elegantly. With ropetrick you are still in the dungeon, and likely the inhabitants have noticed that a large number of bodies have begun to mysteriously pile up. Most dungeons also have informants of some kind to tell them there are adventurers around. Meaning when you pop out of the rope trick the next morning, you will find the dungeon's defenses quite improved. Dungeon inhabitants might even be on the offensive, on high alert, and moving throughout the dungeon in search of the party. The added danger counterbalances the benefit of being able to rest.

With teleport you can exit the dungeon, but you either have to travel back, giving the denizens even more time than they would have had before to prepare for your return, or you have to teleport back, expending resources for the trip back but still giving them warning.

Planeshift is just dangerous. I almost always roll a random encounter from the planar tables when players planeshift. Planeshift is a means of travel, not escape. Even Elysium can be dangerous depending on the circumstances.

Additionally, just because there are ways to make it to a safe place to rest doesn't mean the job is done. Many dungeons are sources of attacks on villagers which are likely to be performed in an act of retaliation if the PCs suddenly vamoose. There are countless consequences for leaving a job unfinished to rest. I shouldn't have to explain them all to you if you are an experienced player or DM. These consequences are what make the 15-minute workday unfeasible and foolhardy for wizards. Spellcasters have to judiciously plan their spell usage to avoid them.

You apparently have a far more unified idea of dungeon than i do. I think of things like RttToH which features monsters separated by fiendish traps whom, even if they could get past the traps to encounter each other, would sooner kill than talk. Not that you can't build a dungeon otherwise, but I'd consider those exceptions to the general rule. Most dungeons are forgotten ruins in remote areas you venture to for the promises of riches - retaliation isn't especially likely. (And who's going to care if they start killing the local orc tribe).

Also, planeshifting to your own private demi-plane is risk free, as its small enough you're a short walk from wherever you want to be and there aren't really any wandering monsters. (They'd have to deal with all those Symbol of X the cleric and wizard tiled the place in which triggers to 'not the party').


Squirrelloid wrote:
You apparently have a far more unified idea of dungeon than i do. I think of things like RttToH which features monsters separated by fiendish traps whom, even if they could get past the traps to encounter each other, would sooner kill than talk. Not that you can't build a dungeon otherwise, but I'd consider those exceptions to the general rule. Most dungeons are forgotten ruins in remote areas you venture to for the promises of riches - retaliation isn't especially likely. (And who's going to care if they start killing the local orc tribe).

I will give you this. There are a lot of classic dungeons like the Tomb of Horrors or White Plume Mountain that follow the paradigm you suggest. But there are just as many such as the Pits of the Slave Lords or the Temple of Elemental Evil that follow the paradigm I describe, if not more.

Spoiler:
Even the Tomb of Horrors was run by a demi-lich, and you had to know he had some idea of what was going on. Still, the Tomb of Horrors is not a very good example because the dungeon is not the kind of place where having a bunch of spells is necessarily as useful as having your wits about you. All the spells in the world won't help you control the sphere of annihilation.

Squirrelloid wrote:
Also, planeshifting to your own private demi-plane is risk free, as its small enough you're a short walk from wherever you want to be and there aren't really any wandering monsters. (They'd have to deal with all those Symbol of X the cleric and wizard tiled the place in which triggers to 'not the party').

I don't know where you got the idea that PCs are capable of crafting their very own demiplane, but such a task is not a simple matter. First of all, in order to even use plane shift, you have to have a tuning fork keyed to the plane to which you desire to travel. Acquiring such a tuning fork might be an adventure in and of itself. Second of all, there is no spell in the PH that lets you craft your own demiplane. I believe there is an epic spell for that however. Third, even if you were to find a small, private demiplane, and even if you were to find a tuning fork for it, and even if it WERE to be uninhabited, unless all of your dungeons are inhabited by nothing but traps and mindless undead or similar creatures, chances are someone in that dungeon is eventually going to figure out where you keep plane shifting to and either find a way to follow you or find a way to keep you on the Prime next time you return (i.e. dimensional anchor). Monsters use magic too, and they are not fond of having their lairs disturbed.

I think we've belabored this point enough. Suffice it to say, the ability to escape from battle does not mean the job is done. Your DM is going easy on you if his dungeon are all static environments that let you rest whenever you feel like it. DMs like that are what make the 15 minute workday possible, not the other way around.


airwalkrr wrote:
MarkusTay wrote:
That might be a good way to balance this ability. Although I still think the fact that specialists lose the bonus spell per level already more than balances this aspect.

Well, a specialist is still a wizard, so ths would not apply to them. Your specialist levels would still count as Wizard levels in this case.

Certain PrCs might be able to get around this, like the Archmage, but I'd be careful about giving it to all the ones that say "X levels count toward a Wizards class levels when determining class abilites" - like spells per day. The whole idea is to force the player to stick with the Wizard base class to get the benefits.


airwalkrr wrote:
I don't know where you got the idea that PCs are capable of crafting their very own demiplane, but such a task is not a simple matter. First of all, in order to even use plane shift, you have to have a tuning fork keyed to the plane to which you desire to travel. Acquiring such a tuning fork might be an adventure in and of itself. Second of all, there is no spell in the PH that lets you craft your own demiplane. I believe there is an epic spell for that however. Third, even if you were to find a small, private demiplane, and even if you were to find a tuning fork for it, and even if it WERE to be uninhabited, unless all of your dungeons are inhabited by nothing but traps and mindless undead or similar creatures, chances are someone in that dungeon is eventually going to figure out where you keep plane shifting to and either find a way to follow you or find a way to keep you on the Prime next time you return (i.e. dimensional anchor). Monsters use magic too, and they are not fond of having their lairs disturbed.

Genesis. Its a 9th level psionic power (which is in the SRD), and its also a 9th level cleric spell in CD iirc. As its in the SRD, its part of the core, even if it is psionics. It lets you set all the parameters of your demiplane as well, which would include what the 'tuning fork' for your plane was, as well as how fast time flows. You set it so one day = 6 seconds on the prime material plane. You planeshift out to your demiplane, spend a day resting, and return to the prime material plane *6 seconds after you left*. A teleport back to where you were makes your full day of rest and time to return take a whole *12 seconds* as far as the denizens of the dungeon are concerned. To them, they never have time to notice you were gone unless they were sitting there watching you, and they'd hardly have time to figure out where or how, much less design a good countermeasure.

Yes, its a high level tactic. Except you can seriously get it going at *11th level* with Planar Binding by making an Efreet wish for a scroll (or psionic equivalent) of Genesis for you.


Squirrelloid wrote:
Don't get me wrong, Wizards can already go to crazytown in the rules pretty easily. But with arcane bond it starts happening even earlier and easier than normal.

I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly, but isn't it a rule (Alpha3, p. 49) that if a wizard choses Arcane Bond [item], he will need his item to cast properly, and if he loses it he will be a dead duck until he manages to create a new item, but if he choses Arcane Bond [familiar], he'll be able to cast normally without having to make a Spellcraft check when the familiar isn't anywhere near him?

If that's correct, it severely diminishes the power of a wizard. Take away his bonded item, and he'll fail at least every other spell.


Squirrelloid wrote:

Genesis...

Yes, its a high level tactic. Except you can seriously get it going at *11th level* with Planar Binding by making an Efreet wish for a scroll (or psionic equivalent) of Genesis for you.

Seriously? Is this your attempt at a rational argument? I could play Pun-Pun too; that would be an equally effective way of kicking monster ass. It doesn't make it legitimate at any given table. Sorry, but pointing out broken rules that aren't even allowed at most gaming tables doesn't make your point.


Cpt. Caboodle wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:
Don't get me wrong, Wizards can already go to crazytown in the rules pretty easily. But with arcane bond it starts happening even earlier and easier than normal.

I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly, but isn't it a rule (Alpha3, p. 49) that if a wizard choses Arcane Bond [item], he will need his item to cast properly, and if he loses it he will be a dead duck until he manages to create a new item, but if he choses Arcane Bond [familiar], he'll be able to cast normally without having to make a Spellcraft check when the familiar isn't anywhere near him?

If that's correct, it severely diminishes the power of a wizard. Take away his bonded item, and he'll fail at least every other spell.

He needs to make a spellcraft check DC 'i make that by 7th level automatically'. Oh noes.

Furthermore, depriving a class of an item is not something that should be considered a balancing point. That's just the DM being spiteful - especially since it'll typically be of the form 'and oh, your arcane bonded item is missing', 'what do you mean its missing? Do you want a list of the spells I had active on it which would prevent such a thing first before you arbitrarily decide this?' By 11th level the item is unstealable (Drawmij's), not to mention probably carrying multiple magical traps keyed to go off on 'not wizard bonded to it'. And similar claims have been made about the wizards spellbook.

Seriously, the fighter spends more money on his weapon (ok, maybe not with the arcane bonded item), and it should be subject to theft and destruction at least as often, if not more so (being blatantly obvious and out and about in combat, not to mention more obviously valuable), but no one considers the possibility of loss or destruction of his weapon a balance point for fighters. Because it shouldn't be - it isn't fun to not be able to do what you built your character to do, no matter what class you are.

airwalkrr wrote:
Seriously? Is this your attempt at a rational argument? I could play Pun-Pun too; that would be an equally effective way of kicking monster ass. It doesn't make it legitimate at any given table. Sorry, but pointing out broken rules that aren't even allowed at most gaming tables doesn't make your point.

If its allowed in the rules, its a valid concern for game balance. I don't care what happens at your table, we aren't talking about what happens at your table, we're talking what is possible under the rules as they exist.

And Planar Bindings specific purpose is to make deals with outsiders. This isn't even stretching the purpose of that spell.

Regardless, players having their own private demi-plane at high levels is certainly something that should be both allowed and is possible under the rules in a reasonable fashion. Doing it at 11th level is only a little crazy. (Even buying the scroll/psionic equivalent with character wealth is possible at 11th level pretty trivially). Seriously, the cool factor of having your own demiplane means its something we want them doing. This also means we have to assume players can and will use it.

Pun-pun works off something that is not core, and thus cannot be corrected by pathfinder, and there are some rather liberal interpretations taken with the ability that lets pun-pun function as advertised to make its RAW legality more than a little questionable. Everything I mentioned is in the SRD in some form.


Are we forgetting that if you loose your Arcane Boned iem you have to make an incredibly difficult Spellcraft skill check to cast any spell ever?

Lose you Familar, and no harm done. Lose your magic wand and you are screwed.


Cpt. Caboodle wrote:


I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly, but isn't it a rule (Alpha3, p. 49) that if a wizard choses Arcane Bond [item], he will need his item to cast properly, and if he loses it he will be a dead duck until he manages to create a new item, but if he choses Arcane Bond [familiar], he'll be able to cast normally without having to make a Spellcraft check when the familiar isn't anywhere near him?

If that's correct, it severely diminishes the power of a wizard. Take away his bonded item, and he'll fail at least every other spell.

I like the arcane bond, but I agree with this assessment. The DC on the check should be changed to 15 + the spell's level.

Concerning the half normal cost to add enchantments to the bonded item, I would keep this but have a maximum limit per level of the caster that can be added.


Raymond Gellner wrote:


I like the arcane bond, but I agree with this assessment. The DC on the check should be changed to 15 + the spell's level.
Concerning the half normal cost to add enchantments to the bonded item, I would keep this but have a maximum limit per level of the caster that can be added.

Since the Bonded Object blurb in the Alpha rules only gives a Wizard a pass on the feats and on 1/2 the cost, I would interpret that as keeping the caster level limits from crafting in place.

Thus, an enhanced weapon has to be 1/3 the Caster level. A bonded object that is a wondrous item usually has minimum caster levels for creation. In addition, these things usually have spells associated with the crafting that further limits the ability of wizards to enhance their item. If they don't have a particular spell, they'll need to acquire it first. Then craft.

And since the bonded Object doesn't advance automatically like a familiar does, the Wizard has to improve the bonded object in his down time. In a recent game, we advanced from level 5 to level 7 without much in the way of downtime. My wizard was able to get 1 day's worth of crafting done in all that time. Which means the bonded item wasn't all it could have been in those last fights at level 7.

If a DM wants to limit the bonded item, it's easy enough to minimize the downtime for the Wizard. I wouldn't suggest using that tactic all the time, but going a couple levels before downtime wouldn't be unreasonable.


The only point Squirrel made that was valid for 95%+ of games was concerning the item crafting expense. The only limit as it stands would be the 200K gp limit on non-epic items.

Setting a level based gp limit would be one method, but could be a bit over complicated. Setting it at merely normal crafting cost (1/2 market) would be reasonable.

Squirrelloid wrote:
(3) The ability to craft at *half normal crafting cost* (1/4 market price) is obscene. Even in the worst case scenario (secondary unrelated ability in the wrong slot), it only costs ~.56 the market value of an item of that ability. (1.5*1.5*0.25 = 9/16 ~= .56)

This is incorrect. Two "50%'ings" is a doubling, just as two doubling's is a tripling. This reinforces your point, as there would then be 0 savings when taking an item creation feat.

However - Sunder would be quite an effective, simple, and frankly *fair* method for a DM to handle a player stacking effect after effect on a bonded item. Any monster/NPC opponent who sees just how powerful that wizard's bonded item is will go after it - it's a cliche even ("Take his staff/wand/ring - it's the base of his power!")

Shadow Lodge

Squirrelloid wrote:

<blah> <blah> <blah> <blah> <blah>

Yes, its a high level tactic. Except you can seriously get it going at *11th level* with Planar...

These sort of tactics should be taken care of by your DM not argued on this board.

Yes, there are holes in the rules if your DM lets you have carte blanche access to every loophole in the rules system. It's the DM's JOB to make your game a challenge. No PRPG isn't going to fix every single thing like this (though they are fixing quite a few).

Incidentally read the PRPG Wish spell again and you might discover that it is not capable of creating a demi-plane.

-- Dennis


michigan wrote:

Are we forgetting that if you loose your Arcane Boned iem you have to make an incredibly difficult Spellcraft skill check to cast any spell ever?

Lose you Familar, and no harm done. Lose your magic wand and you are screwed.

I'm not crazy about all-or-nothing limitations like this. A similar thing exists in 3.5 with spell component pouches. If your DM ignores them, then the Eschew Materials feat won't matter 95% of the time. But if you have a sadistic DM who likes to sunder spell component pouches, grapple a lot, etc. then you suddenly have a huge liability. It's too campaign-dependent to say that something like that is balanced or not (IMO).

If I had a ring as an arcane bond and I'm suddenly fighting ring-sundering enemies all the time, it would seem a bit forced. But if you're never without your magic ring, it's not a disadvantage at all to have one.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I just wanted to throw out two notes here,

There are rules for creating your own little demi-plane, however they are in the epic level handbook(its a epic spell) and it takes a great deal of time to do(each casting causes it to grow slightly and its a ritual to cast). That isn't too big of a concern, but as epic level handbook isn't OGL, players having their own planes isn't much of a consideration, though them having a plane they consider 'safe' to fall back to may be.

Secondly, something to take into account for rope trick- You can only rest once in a 24 hour period. So while you can get a full nights sleep in rope trick as of 8th level, unless you have been adventuring for 16 hours already that isn't going to help you prepare spells again. Ropetrick for re-preparing spells may be good once in a dungeon(since you have adventuring time getting there) but once you are inside, if you have rested its unlikely that you are going to be battling monsters for hours at a time before you need rest. So again, rope trick for repeated resting isn't going to be all that useful til you are near epic(24th level - however many hours you have been wandering since you last rested)

-Tarlane


I found Arcane bond to be useful and not broken, but I am also not *trying* to see what I can get out of my DM, not hogging the spotlight for my character, and trying to use the spirit of the item to good effect.

I have a level 5 Wizard (generalist) with silver bracers as his bonded item and I have him clink them together thematically when I cast my spell from them (ala the evil sorcerer from Conan the Destroyer, but dressed better). I have enchanted them to act as a helm of disguise via Create Wonderous Items.

My first Bonded item was a staff (@ 2nd level) that I made into a +1/+1 staff for 1000gp, sucking all my gold at that level. I got cocky because I had a magic weapon and the fighter didn't (yeah, I played him to have a complex), waded into battle, and then had it sundered after "casting" a spell out of it.

I found that playing a wizard costs money. Money for spells, money to write those spells into your book, money to create magic items, money for spell componants. If I balance all this out against the fact that I can only cast one extra spell that I know once per day of adventuring... Yeah, I find it balances nicely.


Celric wrote:


I found that playing a wizard costs money. Money for spells, money to write those spells into your book, money to create magic items, money for spell componants. If I balance all this out against the fact that I can only cast one extra spell that I know once per day of adventuring... Yeah, I find it balances nicely.

I agree, no class has to spend more personal wealth in order to adventure than the Wizard. When compared with the other classes the wizard is not over-powered. The class that I would worry about being over-powered is the Sorcerer. Most of the Wizard's school powers are one shot a day, whereas the Sorcerer's bloodline powers are in many cases continual and each grows significantly in power as the sorcerer advances. By the time the sorcerer reaches the 16th-20th level range, he easily has more power than any other class.


Tarlane wrote:

I just wanted to throw out two notes here,

There are rules for creating your own little demi-plane, however they are in the epic level handbook(its a epic spell) and it takes a great deal of time to do(each casting causes it to grow slightly and its a ritual to cast). That isn't too big of a concern, but as epic level handbook isn't OGL, players having their own planes isn't much of a consideration, though them having a plane they consider 'safe' to fall back to may be.

Secondly, something to take into account for rope trick- You can only rest once in a 24 hour period. So while you can get a full nights sleep in rope trick as of 8th level, unless you have been adventuring for 16 hours already that isn't going to help you prepare spells again. Ropetrick for re-preparing spells may be good once in a dungeon(since you have adventuring time getting there) but once you are inside, if you have rested its unlikely that you are going to be battling monsters for hours at a time before you need rest. So again, rope trick for repeated resting isn't going to be all that useful til you are near epic(24th level - however many hours you have been wandering since you last rested)

-Tarlane

Check Complete Divine for the spell Genesis. Check the SRD psionics section for the power Genesis. Both let you create a demiplane. Both are 9th level spells/powers. It is not epic. (Not that the relevant epic material isn't also part of OGL seeing as its in the SRD, but epic is not relevant to this discussion).

And you're forgetting Extend Spell for Ropetrick, which is quite useful.


0gre wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:

<blah> <blah> <blah> <blah> <blah>

Yes, its a high level tactic. Except you can seriously get it going at *11th level* with Planar...

These sort of tactics should be taken care of by your DM not argued on this board.

Yes, there are holes in the rules if your DM lets you have carte blanche access to every loophole in the rules system. It's the DM's JOB to make your game a challenge. No PRPG isn't going to fix every single thing like this (though they are fixing quite a few).

Incidentally read the PRPG Wish spell again and you might discover that it is not capable of creating a demi-plane.

-- Dennis

Rule 0 should not be the first argument against 'broken' material. The DM should not have to houserule things which break the game - if planar binding is broken it should be fixed.

Hmm... they seem to have removed Wish's ability to create items at all... which is weird, seeing as all literary references have it used for exactly that purpose. (eg, Aladdin). Note I never said you used Wish to create a demi-plane, I said you used wish to get a scroll of Genesis (or psionic equivalent) which could be used to create the demi-plane.

Of course, you could just *buy* a scroll of genesis at 11th level and have the cleric read it. (Or psionic equivalent and have the psionicist use it). Scrolls are cheap, and you only need to do it once. Heck, you could hire an NPC to cast it for you even cheaper, as its something you're doing during downtime and thus there's no real risk involved to the hired spellcaster.

Sovereign Court

In one of the most recent adventures I ran, the party did use Rope Trick, but got very concerned when they looked out their "window" and saw orcs with bloodhounds sniffing around below. Oh, and the orcs killed thier mounts (which obviously couldn't fit in the box with them). When they realized that next time, the orcs could just pile a bunch of wood under their "window" and have a nice big bonfire, they decided not to try that again.

Later on, they were in a real pickle in the same adventure and had to Teleport out. Problem is, the party has 6 PCs and an animal companion. The wizard could only get himself + 3 out. Half the party had to camp out in an unexplored area and wait over a day for the wizard to rememorize the spell and pray that he didn't misjump from only having "viewed once" the place where the rest of the party was hiding. It didn't help the abandoned guys knowing that the orcs they were running from were afraid to follow them in that tunnel!

Bascially, what I'm getting at is the fact that most "dungeons" are reactive places, where the denizens will change tactics once hit by a party. It's not a computer game where the PCs can "save game" before opening a door, or teleport out, rest 8 hours and pop right back to the same spot and the monsters just sit there idlely waiting for a group of heroes to come slaughter them.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:
Hmm... they seem to have removed Wish's ability to create items at all... which is weird, seeing as all literary references have it used for exactly that purpose. (eg, Aladdin).

If I'm reading it right, you could use wish to create up to 30K of mundane items via a duplication of fabricate.


Cpt. Caboodle wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:


If that's correct, it severely diminishes the power of a wizard. Take away his bonded item, and he'll fail at least every other spell.

He needs to make a spellcraft check DC 'i make that by 7th level automatically'. Oh noes.

Furthermore, depriving a class of an item is not something that should be considered a balancing point.

Hmm. At Level 7 you have a Spellcraft Skill of about 14. How exactly is that an automatic success vs. DC 24 when trying to cast a 4th level spell?

And Items getting lost or destroyed is part of the normal business of adventurers, at least in the campaigns I play in. When you get blasted with fire or acid, your equipment will suffer.

And it is most certainly not a balancing point - if in a game world it is common knowledge that a wizard without his bonded item is only half CR, every adventure that goes like "find the evil wizard and kill him" will start with "let's steal/destroy/disarm his Arcane Thingummy first."

Therefore I think it is highly questionable for a class to rely this heavily on the presence of an item.


Cpt. Caboodle wrote:
Cpt. Caboodle wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:


If that's correct, it severely diminishes the power of a wizard. Take away his bonded item, and he'll fail at least every other spell.

He needs to make a spellcraft check DC 'i make that by 7th level automatically'. Oh noes.

Furthermore, depriving a class of an item is not something that should be considered a balancing point.

Hmm. At Level 7 you have a Spellcraft Skill of about 14. How exactly is that an automatic success vs. DC 24 when trying to cast a 4th level spell?

And Items getting lost or destroyed is part of the normal business of adventurers, at least in the campaigns I play in. When you get blasted with fire or acid, your equipment will suffer.

And it is most certainly not a balancing point - if in a game world it is common knowledge that a wizard without his bonded item is only half CR, every adventure that goes like "find the evil wizard and kill him" will start with "let's steal/destroy/disarm his Arcane Thingummy first."

Therefore I think it is highly questionable for a class to rely this heavily on the presence of an item.

Ok, first 14 is low. You start with an Int of 20 (because you buy an 18 with PB and get +2 race). You put all your stat pumps into it and prioritize getting enhancement items. +16 at 14th level isn't even hard pre-feats, and you can take skill focus if you're really worried.

So 7th level is a little early to be automaking, but you'll be automaking at some point, and not too distant since spell level scales half as fast as ranks in a skill.

And breaking the item requires you to know what it is (not as obvious if its not a wand or staff), and even with detect magic the wizard could very well have prestidigitationed rings or Nystul's Magic Aura on items to mislead you. They may even carry a wand or staff just to misdirect you. This of course assumes the item is visible - nothing in the rules requires the wizard to wear his arcane bonded amulet outside his shirt, for instance, just that he wears it. Rings can be worn under gloves. And so forth. As an item not worn outside clothing doesn't have line of sight to it, you've got at least a 50% miss chance (not to mention it being questionable whether you can even nominate it as a target).

Finally, destroying items ruins the wealth-by-level guidelines and thus takes you outside of any ability for the rules to handle balancing encounters, because your PCs are no longer properly equipped for their level. As such, either you can't expect item destruction to balance the game, or they're just going to get all that cash back to keep them at the proper wealth for their level.

The Exchange

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:
Genesis. Its a 9th level psionic power (which is in the SRD), and its also a 9th level cleric spell in CD iirc. As its in the SRD, its part of the core, even if it is psionics. It lets you set all the parameters of your demiplane as well, which would include what the 'tuning fork' for your plane was, as well as how fast time flows. You set it so one day = 6 seconds on the prime material plane. You planeshift out to your demiplane, spend a day resting, and return to the prime material plane *6 seconds after you left*.

Just wanted to point out that Genesis, according the SRD, doesn't allow you to alter the time trait of your demiplane. So your 24 hours of resting? It took 24 hours on the material plane as well.


Void_Eagle wrote:
Squirrelloid wrote:
Genesis. Its a 9th level psionic power (which is in the SRD), and its also a 9th level cleric spell in CD iirc. As its in the SRD, its part of the core, even if it is psionics. It lets you set all the parameters of your demiplane as well, which would include what the 'tuning fork' for your plane was, as well as how fast time flows. You set it so one day = 6 seconds on the prime material plane. You planeshift out to your demiplane, spend a day resting, and return to the prime material plane *6 seconds after you left*.
Just wanted to point out that Genesis, according the SRD, doesn't allow you to alter the time trait of your demiplane. So your 24 hours of resting? It took 24 hours on the material plane as well.

Ah, ok, I'm thinking of the CD cleric spell Genesis, which does let you do so. (What am I thinking, of course the cleric spell is better, it belongs to CoDzilla).

Regardless, there are also planes which have different time traits than the prime, and you can always set up strongholds there as well. Planar travel is just something you have to deal with starting around 11th level.

Shadow Lodge

Squirrelloid wrote:
Regardless, there are also planes which have different time traits than the prime, and you can always set up strongholds there as well. Planar travel is just something you have to deal with starting around 11th level.

There are no specific planes in the SRD that have accelerated time flow the way you discuss. What other planes exist and how easy they are to access all lies in the hands of the DM or in non-core supplements.

There is no way Paizo can fix non-core brokenness or your house rules. Is there anything which actually applies to PRPG you would like to discuss?

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