looking through the alpha version and playing some Red Hand of Doom, we noticed that you can use spellcraft if you're hit to keep the spell, but can we still just cast defensively.
Huh... you may have stumbled on something there.
It's highly doubtful that casting on the defensive "isn't allowed" anymore.. but it's quite possible that it isn't *needed* anymore.
The omission of casting on the defensive from the Spellcraft DC chart (which really needs some work - I couldn't find it on the page!) could be accidental, or it could indicate one of two things:
1) No attack of opportunity for casting in combat. This has been an irritation to many people in the past [*not* including myself], and cause for endless debate over the validity of certain 'builds' due to this. Simply removing it solves much - though I think backwards compatibility suffers for it (how many stat blocks include "Combat Casting" feat?).
2) The attack of opportunity is unavoidable. This would be the other solution to the irritation of the concentration check - no avoiding the attack of opportunity at all. Either don't cast, or expect to be attacked. Harsh and unlikely, but possible.
Considering that...
Combat Casting
You are skilled at casting spells when threatened or
distracted.
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on Spellcraft checks made to
cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while casting on the
defensive or while grappled.
...is still in the document. I believe it is safe to say that casting on the defensive is still in. It may have just been an oversight that the DC's were dropped from the Spellcraft tables.
I agree that it is probably just an oversight. Use Spellcraft. In the meantime, Jason et al: make sure to fix this in the beta doc.
I still think casting defensively should be Dex-based, but you would probably have to make it an entirely new skill or something.
Which is exactly why Spellcraft should be rolled into Knowledges and Concentration should be retained as a skill. It's a much better idea, since Concentration is tied to several "non-core" mechanics (Psionics, Diamond Mind maneuvers, etc), and it's keyed off CON, which doesn't favor only one main caster (Wizards) over all the others.
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Which is exactly why Spellcraft should be rolled into Knowledges and Concentration should be retained as a skill. It's a much better idea, since Concentration is tied to several "non-core" mechanics (Psionics, Diamond Mind maneuvers, etc), and it's keyed off CON, which doesn't favor only one main caster (Wizards) over all the others.
Yeah. This is the one thing that I'd HAVE to house-rule if Pathfinder continues with its course to wrap Concentration with Spellcraft. What is presented in the Alpha is simply not an acceptable option to me (especially given other mechanics outside the Core rules).
Which is exactly why Spellcraft should be rolled into Knowledges and Concentration should be retained as a skill. It's a much better idea, since Concentration is tied to several "non-core" mechanics (Psionics, Diamond Mind maneuvers, etc), and it's keyed off CON, which doesn't favor only one main caster (Wizards) over all the others.
NOw this I can agree with wholeheartedly.
Which is exactly why Spellcraft should be rolled into Knowledges and Concentration should be retained as a skill. It's a much better idea, since Concentration is tied to several "non-core" mechanics (Psionics, Diamond Mind maneuvers, etc), and it's keyed off CON, which doesn't favor only one main caster (Wizards) over all the others.
Other than complicating a large number of effects that require spellcraft checks, this really isn't a bad idea at all.
At this point though, my question would be whether Concentration would be a strong enough skill (relatively) on its own, and perhaps the Knowledge (arcana, psionics, religion) skills would be a bit over powerful.
I agree Concentration is needed. Take a look at this skill list!
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Which is exactly why Spellcraft should be rolled into Knowledges and Concentration should be retained as a skill. It's a much better idea, since Concentration is tied to several "non-core" mechanics (Psionics, Diamond Mind maneuvers, etc), and it's keyed off CON, which doesn't favor only one main caster (Wizards) over all the others.
Well Psionics will just use Psicraft. As for the Book of Nine Swords stuff, there's no reason why those players that need it can't have concentration on their character sheet.
However, I don't like Book of Nine Swords and none of the groups I play in allow it, so it's not an issue.
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Which is exactly why Spellcraft should be rolled into Knowledges and Concentration should be retained as a skill. It's a much better idea, since Concentration is tied to several "non-core" mechanics (Psionics, Diamond Mind maneuvers, etc), and it's keyed off CON, which doesn't favor only one main caster (Wizards) over all the others.
That is exactly how I house ruled my skills. Arcane, Religion, and even Nature had its own version of Spellcraft tied in with it. However the only thing was with my rule, is you had to be able to cast the right type of spells, with the right type of knowledge, to identify your type of spells.
Personally, I'd prefer keeping Concentration a a separate skill, as it has several other uses then concentrating on a spell, and folding Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) into one Arcana skill (as in 4E coincidentally). The dividing line between these two skills is often hard to find anyway.
I think:
Spellcraft, as written, should be a class ability for any caster class, and should be based on caster level. Use it as the druid/ranger uses Wild Empathy - CL+INT. This way, every class that uses spells has a chance to recognize them. It's just not a viable skill (compared to others) on its own, IMO.
Concentration should be as per the SRD, and based on CON. I think this skill is weak, and could use other associated abilities. I like the idea of taking 10 minutes meditating, DC 20 Concentration check, and recover HP as if you had rested for 8 hours. 1 minute and a DC 15 check would give you a +2 Insight bonus on the next skill check you make. Likewise, a full-round action and a check could relieve the Fatigued condition. Or it could let you hold your breath twice as long as normal. There are a lot of potential uses for Concentration that would be viable for non-casters, and this would make the skill much more attractive.
-Scott
I think:
Spellcraft, as written, should be a class ability for any caster class, and should be based on caster level. Use it as the druid/ranger uses Wild Empathy - CL+INT. This way, every class that uses spells has a chance to recognize them. It's just not a viable skill (compared to others) on its own, IMO.
Concentration should be as per the SRD, and based on CON. I think this skill is weak, and could use other associated abilities. I like the idea of taking 10 minutes meditating, DC 20 Concentration check, and recover HP as if you had rested for 8 hours. 1 minute and a DC 15 check would give you a +2 Insight bonus on the next skill check you make. Likewise, a full-round action and a check could relieve the Fatigued condition. Or it could let you hold your breath twice as long as normal. There are a lot of potential uses for Concentration that would be viable for non-casters, and this would make the skill much more attractive.
-Scott
There are some good ideas here.
I think this must be an omission in the Spellcraft DC tables, if casting defensively is still in the game, or in the text for Combat Casting if it's out.
By the way, one of the basic rules for spellcasters in D&D has been "stay out of melee!" since day 1, so I have another idea:
What if casting defensively is only an option if you have the Combat Casting feat?
In this way, combat casting means literally Combat Casting even more, and it widen the gap between this feat and Skill Focus: Spellcraft. As it stands now, a difference of only +1 makes the latest feat a clearly better option.
What do you think?
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Concentration is a great skill, at least in my games. It uses a stat bonus that rewards the characters who are hearty and focused and it comes into play a ton more than I initially thought. In addition to casting defensively (huge when your melees are maneuverability focused) it matters for:
--focusing in a chaotic situation (disarming a trap during a riot)
--trying to pull off some indiana jones type stunt
--the various kung fu type effects that monk players always like doing
--testing a character's ability to resist provocation from an NPC (opposed for taunting and the like)
--determining whether or not a character can take 10 on a skill check without resorting to DM fiat
I need concentration for my games, I suspect many other DMs who run with role-playing focus do too.
If I had to choose, I would dump spellcraft, rolling its functions up into knowledge arcana and religion (after all, why should the wizard be able to know what spell a druid is casting by reference to his spellcraft?). Even on epic spellcrafting, doesn't it make sense that the epic caster is able to master the arcane forces through his concentration and willpower rather than his simple knowledge of the magic forces?
In my playtesting campaign we have houseruled out spellcraft to this end and it is working very well to keep the role-playing benefits of concentration as a skill.
I still hate the idea of concentration as a skill. Just how does one teach themselves to concentrate?
Ask any college student that's lived in a dorm and had to do homework while others are partying...
Although, now that I think about it, in that sense it would be a Wisdom-based roll, rather than Constitution. Funny that's never occurred to me until now.
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On the other hand, nobody plays a bard anyways, so it doesn't matter.
Just kidding. It is obvious that people play bards, just not always obvious why...
In any case, I really like having Concentration remain the skill it has been in 3.5. If that is the case, there are two possibilities...
One is to keep Spellcraft and the Knowledge skills basically the same as they were in 3.5.
The other option is to change it.
Has anyone read the 3.5 description of Knowlege (arcana) lately? Hell, we'll just post them all.
Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the
Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)
Now, the first thing in Knowledge (arcana) is ancient mysteries. Why isn't that in history? The first thing in history is royalty. Why isn't that in knowledge (nobility & royalty)? Knowledge (arcana) is the weak skill. It should be removed from the game. Spellcraft should still identify spells, and Concentration should still be used to cast defensively. The arcana symbols get moved to Spellcraft and everything else gets ported to History. History loses Royalty becuase otherwise Nobility is just about useless.
That would work for me nicely.
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Which is exactly why Spellcraft should be rolled into Knowledges and Concentration should be retained as a skill. It's a much better idea, since Concentration is tied to several "non-core" mechanics (Psionics, Diamond Mind maneuvers, etc), and it's keyed off CON, which doesn't favor only one main caster (Wizards) over all the others.That is exactly how I house ruled my skills. Arcane, Religion, and even Nature had its own version of Spellcraft tied in with it. However the only thing was with my rule, is you had to be able to cast the right type of spells, with the right type of knowledge, to identify your type of spells.
This is something I've suggested before - it is as we use it, and my proposal for how to fix things.
Get rid of Spellcraft. Use Knowledge Arcana and Knoweldge Religion to affect spells on a Arcane / Divine basis accordingly. So a cleric with K.Religion is going to ID Slay Living as it's being cast, while the wizard with K.Arcane recognizes when a delayed blast fireball is coming their way. And keep Concentration as a CON-based skill for everyone to use evenly.
1) it removes a skill - in the M.O. of the revised skill list for Pathfinder, it appears we're tying to eliminate and roll skills together.
2) It keeps Concentration as a skill based on a universally useful ability score - making it INT based favors the wizard tremendously. Clerics and Sorcers tend to have a higher CON than an INT (as well as Druids, Paladins, and Rangers), so it unfairly robs them, of a synergized skill.
3) It adds a little flavor of the arcane vs divine magic - each being identified seperately appropriate to the type of caster that is casting it and the type that can ID it.
4) It allows Concentration to be used for other purposes - there were some cool ideas above - others are possible.
Robert
Only problem I see with rolling Spellcraft into Knowledge Arcana, etc, is that the bard ends up knowing more about magic than the full caster types, seeing as the bard has all knowledge as class skills, and gets bonuses to the checks. Not something I like.
Actually, last I checked wizards got all knowledges too.
Bards only get that if they take the time to invest ranks in the applicable knowledge skills. Yes, they get bonuses, but isn't there still the DC 10 is all you can get untrained? (My copy of A3 is in the other room, so sorry if I'm wrong.) Seems to me if a bard wants to take the time to invest ranks in Knowledge Arcana and Religion and Nature and Psionics and whatever...well, that's 4 of their 6 skill points right there. (Maybe 3 because of that bonus knowledge thing? Anyway, it's still a big chunk.) I don't see a lot of bards bothering, not when they have so many other cool skills they can get instead.
Edit: Oh, and just to stay on topic, I noticed the same thing about Casting Defensively. And agree with the aforementioned suggestion to return Concentration and roll Spellcraft into knowledges. In case you couldn't tell:)
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I think there has to be a discrepancy between the two VERY different functions of spellcraft. It's one thing to identify a spell from hearing or seeing it, or even knowing about spells, but that should be int based. on the other hand, we have casting defensively, arguably con or dex based. there almost has to be two different skills to accommodate for these two very very different purposes of spellcraft
I'm not sure I understand the desire to screw casters this way. The fighting classes all have individual feats that flat-out eliminate AoOs for special actions (Grappling, tripping, sundering, etc), while all the poor caster gets is a +4 to his check to not be horribly mutilated while casting a spell next to a guy. I've always thought that the Combat Casting feat should remove any possibility of AoO against casters for casting a spell in a threatened area - for consistency if for no other reason.
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I'm not sure I understand the desire to screw casters this way. The fighting classes all have individual feats that flat-out eliminate AoOs for special actions (Grappling, tripping, sundering, etc), while all the poor caster gets is a +4 to his check to not be horribly mutilated while casting a spell next to a guy. I've always thought that the Combat Casting feat should remove any possibility of AoO against casters for casting a spell in a threatened area - for consistency if for no other reason.
To be fair, most of the time, casting a spell is more potent of an action than the attempt to trip or disarm etc.
Being disarmed is no where near the concern of a failing a save against even a low level spell such as Color Spray or Tashas Laughter - not to mention the more potent and lethal spells such as Disintigrate or Finger of Death.
Robert
I think the idea of having separate skills for Arcane and Divine spellcasting would be a bit redundant. There are more than a few spells that can be cast from either side, and then there's the Bard who tends to be capable of grabbing both divine and arcane spells. Perhaps another approach would be to grant those with ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill, a synergy bonus on identifying spells as they're being cast. (its easier to ID a divine spell with ranks in knowledge(religion), but youre still using Spellcraft to make the check since, for the most part, DnD spellcasting is rote anyway.)
as for bringing Concentration back as its own skill and perhaps stacking one or two uses that can be applied to any class? sounds good. though again, substituting a Concentration check to see if you can take 10 or 20 with another check goes beyond a bit redundant.
I think the idea of having separate skills for Arcane and Divine spellcasting would be a bit redundant. There are more than a few spells that can be cast from either side, and then there's the Bard who tends to be capable of grabbing both divine and arcane spells. Perhaps another approach would be to grant those with ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill, a synergy bonus on identifying spells as they're being cast. (its easier to ID a divine spell with ranks in knowledge(religion), but youre still using Spellcraft to make the check since, for the most part, DnD spellcasting is rote anyway.)
as for bringing Concentration back as its own skill and perhaps stacking one or two uses that can be applied to any class? sounds good. though again, substituting a Concentration check to see if you can take 10 or 20 with another check goes beyond a bit redundant.
The logic would follow that having a separate knowledge for arcana and religion would be redundant, especially since undead can be created via arcane means as well as divine.
The fact is that there are differences in how a spell is cast when it's arcane or divine. The divine spell often has a divine focus, while the arcane spell may have a material component. They could use different somatic or verbal components (certainly, the somatic components of a divine spell must be different if it doesn't suffer ASF...). And, just as there are spells that overlap the arcane/divine divide, there are spells that overlap the arcane/psionic divide, but they created an entirely different skill to identify psionics (Psicraft).
Honestly, it's not like it'd be impossible for a wizard to identify a divine spell, nor a cleric to identify an arcane spell. Wizards have all knowledges as class skills, and clerics have Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill as well. If they want to be able to identify spells as they're being cast, this gives them more incentive to invest ranks in knowledges, and I'm all for that. Bards, with their Bardic Knowledge class feature, will automatically be decent at identifying both, which is perfectly reasonable based on his wide repetoire of knowledges. It's not like a 3.5 bard couldn't just invest ranks in spellcraft instead anyway...
I'm fine with adding abilities to Concentration. Perhaps certain portions of the Autohypnosis skill (particularly, the stabilization and ignoring Caltrop wounds) could be rolled into Concentration. The memorization aspects of Autohypnosis are interesting, but perhaps could just be lost into the mists of knowledge skills... or perhaps added to some other skill, if they're really essential.
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I think the idea of having separate skills for Arcane and Divine spellcasting would be a bit redundant. There are more than a few spells that can be cast from either side, and then there's the Bard who tends to be capable of grabbing both divine and arcane spells. Perhaps another approach would be to grant those with ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill, a synergy bonus on identifying spells as they're being cast. (its easier to ID a divine spell with ranks in knowledge(religion), but youre still using Spellcraft to make the check since, for the most part, DnD spellcasting is rote anyway.)
I think you needlessly complicating it. I'm not talking about identifying a spell that can or is cast by two different classes, I'm talking about spells being cast by two different methods.
Cure Light Wounds appears on both the Bard and the Cleric list - this is true: but when the former casts it, it is considered an arcane spell, and the former does so it is divine. If this still doesn't seem to differentiate - the former carries with it the chance for arcane spell failure. Why would one cause this and the other doesnt if they were cast the exact same fashion? They aren't cast in the exact same fashion. Comprehend Languages is on both the Wizard and the Cleric class spell list. However, when the former casts it, he much have a pinch of soot and a couple grains of salt and find it difficult to cast the spell in armor; while the latter needs only his holy symbol divine focus and can do so even in full plate.
So the spells are indeed being cast in two different ways with different aspects into the casting. Thus someone trying to ID a spell being cast must be able to know how to differentiate one from the other. Thus to identify an arcane spell being cast, one would need Knowledge Arcana, and to identify a divine spell being cast, one would need Knoweldge Religion; regardless if the spell appears on two different lists; it how it is being cast by a particular caster that determines the way a spell is cast at any given time and requires a different knowledge and style to implement it and thus a different set of knowledge to understand and identify it.
One can then of course complicate the system as they see fit by adding in synergy bonuses on spells that appear on both spell lists if the person is versed in both knowledges etc; but the general basic use of this system is quite simple to implement and does have merit and makes sense IMO.
Robert
Director of Games
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Couple of quick points here...
1. Casting Defensively will still be an option. It accidentally got left off the lists and will be added to the Beta.
2. The split between the wizard "must have" skills goes as follows. Knowledge (arcana) is for "book learned" info about magic and spells. This is why it is used to identify spell effects that are in place. Spellcraft is for "practical" knowledge about casting spells, which is why concentration was rolled into it.
3. I know that Concentration had some other used, but I think these can be resolved in more elegant ways than as skill that was used for one purpose 95% of the time, and all the rest barely at all (psionics notwithstanding, and this is something I hope to address soon, although not in the Beta).
Continue your discussion though.. I am listening.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Couple of quick points here...
1. Casting Defensively will still be an option. It accidentally got left off the lists and will be added to the Beta.
2. The split between the wizard "must have" skills goes as follows. Knowledge (arcana) is for "book learned" info about magic and spells. This is why it is used to identify spell effects that are in place. Spellcraft is for "practical" knowledge about casting spells, which is why concentration was rolled into it.
3. I know that Concentration had some other used, but I think these can be resolved in more elegant ways than as skill that was used for one purpose 95% of the time, and all the rest barely at all (psionics notwithstanding, and this is something I hope to address soon, although not in the Beta).
Continue your discussion though.. I am listening.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason, with all due respect; i understand your reasoning, and its not flawed in any way. My concern - (and the concern of many others who expressed disappointment in Concentration being removed) was that it was placing "Concentration" effects such as casting defensively into an INT based skill that significantly favors wizards. Leaving it CON based means its a skill that ALL classes favor equally. (except maybe the barbarian - which is moot for the most part.)
Clerics who already need a good wisdom, and charisma to take advantage of their class features usually still need to find some points put to strength to allow their heavy armor useage and now suffers from needing a good INT score, or spend a feat on combat casting now to make up the difference on what they would generally try to get in having an adequate Constitution score for hit points - and their casting defensively - since clerics are generally in the middle of combat much more frequently than wizards are anway. It similarly affects Sorcerers, Druids, Rangers, and Paladins as well just to be fair.
Our suggestions for splitting the Knowledges up between arcane and divine based spells, was merely a suggestion for an alternate way to be able to combine some skills and still get rid of one (spellcraft in this case) as opposed to getting rid of concentration - as it is understood that the overall idea is to remove some of the less needed skills (an idea that most of us agree with - myself included).
This is not to say that your logic or reasoning is flawed; just the end result is unfavorable to many it appears.
Keep up the good work. And really looking forward to Beta.
Robert
I see a problem : Skill Focus (spellcraft) and combat casting have strange effect !
Skill focus (spellcraft) become more usefool : help to cast defensivly, help to identify, to learn ... So it's become a powerful feat.
I remove the combat casting feat .
In the other hand, I like the disparition of Concentration.
Perhaps give "Combat Casting" as a free feat for Cleric and Druid is a good idea.
I like the Druid and the cleric to be efficient in combat, due to their divine power.
The disparition of Concentration give every class a free skill point, and it could be spend in Spellcraft. So i think the rules should stay like this.
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The disparition of Concentration give every class a free skill point, and it could be spend in Spellcraft. So i think the rules should stay like this.
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so too would removing spellcraft in lieu of a knowledge skill check..
either way it has the same result; just a different means of doing it.
Robert
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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One solution for the INT based skill favoring INT based casters is to change the spellcraft skill to use whatever the character's primary spellcasting ability score is. This would again level the playing field and makes sense - if a caster uses INT, CHA, or WIS (or conceivably another ability) to help them cast their spells, it should also help them cast their spells under stress, it's all about how their magical tradition works.
As for other systems that use concentration, after helping one of my players convert his Bo9S Warblade to Pathfinder, I decided that the Martial Lore skill now folded concentration into it also, just like spellcraft had for spellcasters. Taking this decision and applying it to psionics is just as easy, if psicraft includes concentration uses as part of it just like spellcraft and martial lore does. It would be easy to also allow psicraft and martial lore to be based on a primary manifesting/initiating stat also (admittedly a bit harder to decide for Bo9S characters.)
You could go a step further and blend all 3 skills into one, that would be used to ID and cast/manifest/initiate spells/powers/maneuvers defensively or used in place of concentration checks for Diamond Mind abilities.
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I'm not sure I understand the desire to screw casters this way. The fighting classes all have individual feats that flat-out eliminate AoOs for special actions (Grappling, tripping, sundering, etc), while all the poor caster gets is a +4 to his check to not be horribly mutilated while casting a spell next to a guy. I've always thought that the Combat Casting feat should remove any possibility of AoO against casters for casting a spell in a threatened area - for consistency if for no other reason.
To be fair, most of the time, casting a spell is more potent of an action than the attempt to trip or disarm etc.
Being disarmed is no where near the concern of a failing a save against even a low level spell such as Color Spray or Tashas Laughter - not to mention the more potent and lethal spells such as Disintigrate or Finger of Death.
Robert
I actually had it wrong in my head when I posted that, speaking as though a failed roll meant the AoO succeeded... but it doesn't, and I knew that. I think I was trapped in the comparison. :)
In any case, though, failing that roll for the caster means he loses a spell. How many spells does a caster have compared to the number of trip attempts a fighter has? Losing a spell is a MUCH larger percentage of the Wizard's utility gone for the day as compared to the easily repaired hit point damage a fighter might suffer at the hands of an AoO for tripping. Fighter takes a feat, no more AoO. Wizard takes a feat (should I also compare the number of feats for the classes? :), and just gets +4 on a roll to try to save his spell...
It doesn't bother me enough to make a big ruckus, but it's something that I think is an inconsistency that could be made easily consistent.
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I'm glad you're listening Jason. That makes it so it doesn't feel like we're completely wasting our time.
I know you're not going to please everybody. Some people want the game to be the same as 3.5, and some people want more changes than you're willing to make. I like the idea of changing things that don't work.
Concentration did work. It worked well. It was taken by every caster, and it wasn't ever felt to be a burdensome 'skill tax' because it does important things. Changing it to an Intelligence based skill is horrible. It is game-breaking. Wizards love it, but every other class suffers quite significantly. I hate it. With the burning passion of a thousand suns.
Perhaps it would be better to approach it from a different direction. If you're removing Concentration and rolling all the functions into Spellcraft, you must feel that it offers an advantage and is superior to 3.5. If you did not feel it was superior, it wouldn't be in 3 versions of the Alpha.
So, let's hear it. Why did you get rid of Concentration when something like 90% of the audience are upset about the change? What did it gain? An extra skill point for wizards who don't need it? Remember you basically gave every wizard a +2 to Intelligence in Pathfinder from the get-go, in addition retroactive intelligence modifier to skills... So why?
I'd like to repeat a plea for 4+Int skills for all classes. Then clerics, sorcerers, etc, will be able to buy ranks in Concentration and it will still be much more backward compatible than the removal of Concentration from the game (which has unintended effects explained in earlier posts). Adding 2 skill points to every published NPC takes no time at all. Figuring out what to do with Combat Casting and what Feat to take instead (since I have more feats anyway) will be much more complicated. So, if the only reason that Concentration is gone is that spellcasters don't have enough skill points, I beg you to rethink your position.
I don't want to whine, and I don't want to sound threatening, but these are the kinds of issues that I'm basing my decision on whether or not to play Pathfinder on. Obviously I'm providing the support Paizo needs (or at least my share) while you're figuring things out, and I'm not threatening to withdraw it now, but the Pathfinder in the Beta is not a game that my players will play. While I'd be tempted to buy the books anyway, that isn't the game you want to make - the one that sits on the shelf and looks pretty. Concentration is an important issue to my group. I don't like what I see as a 'give-away' to wizards, and I don't like the thought of any skill that was non-casting related having to find a new skill mechanic. Concentration was a good 'catch-all', and as the only skill utilizing Constitution, I think that is appropriate.
So, in short, what are you thinking with this? (I know what you said about practical application versus knowledge, but that sounds crazy - I don't see why that distinction is necessary).
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Count me as another voice in favor of using Knowledge/Arcana and Knowledge/Religion in place of Spellcraft (which is way more the "skill tax", IMO) and keeping Concentration. How many other skills are based on Con? Would it kill us to have ONE? As others have pointed out, Concetration can be used for lots of other things besides maintaining a spell (even if it was only used for that purpose 99% of the time). And while there may be some redundancy in using the two Knowledge skills in the case of a spell being on both lists... so what? I find it much easier to justify a cleric knowing all about the rituals and prayers of his own and rival faiths but being totally ignorant of the arcane casting of hedge wizards, or a master of the mystic arts being, well _mystified_ by the workings of the divine.
As it is IMC, I already use Knowledge/Nature, Knowledge/The Planes and Knowledge/Religion in a novel way, tied to unique Monster Summoning lists, and psionics already make heavy use of Concentration (as well as several house rules for using Concentration in ritual casting). Besides, like others have indicated, rolling the skill for keeping a spell from being disrupted into another skill based on one of three prime stats for casters inherenty favors one type of caster over the other two. Concentration was equidistant from all three caster types, and thus fair.
Bear in mind, Mr. B, that there are multiple threads on the issue of Spellcraft vs Concentration. I've made my argument in several places, and it's been almost unanimously supported when it's come up, no matter where. The dissenters, if you could call them that, are really more apathetic one way or the other.
And, frankly, the idea that Spellcraft is somehow "practical" knowledge while Knowledge (Arcana) is theoretical knowledge is just silly. Not only does Arcana let you identify dragons, magical beasts, etc, it also somehow lets you identify on-going spell effects (something that used to be Spellcraft's purview anyway). Why you need a separate skill to identify a a spell as it's being cast, but can't identify an ongoing spell in the same manner, baffles me. I like what you've done in many places for 3.5, but this skill swap just feels entirely out of left field. I never heard people complain about Concentration, there's a very strong opinion on these boards that it needs to make a comeback, there's almost no support for the Spellcraft skill in its place, and it's a vital skill for other applications (keeping cool under pressure, psionic focus, Diamond Mind). Honestly, I can't even begin to fathom what skill I would use in place of Diamond Mind's Concentration if I was forced to pick another that wouldn't feel entirely forced and unfitting. I can't understand what the reticence is regarding this skill. I would love for you to enlighten me, but, as it stands, if Spellcraft goes forward, I'll just have to house-rule it back out again every single time, and I'd rather not have to.
I'm finding this to be a pretty big sticking point for me.
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Count me as another voice in favor of using Knowledge/Arcana and Knowledge/Religion in place of Spellcraft (which is way more the "skill tax", IMO) and keeping Concentration. How many other skills are based on Con? Would it kill us to have ONE? As others have pointed out, Concetration can be used for lots of other things besides maintaining a spell (even if it was only used for that purpose 99% of the time). And while there may be some redundancy in using the two Knowledge skills in the case of a spell being on both lists... so what? I find it much easier to justify a cleric knowing all about the rituals and prayers of his own and rival faiths but being totally ignorant of the arcane casting of hedge wizards, or a master of the mystic arts being, well _mystified_ by the workings of the divine.
Add my name to that list as well, Jason. I think Twowlves summed my reasoning fairly well in the quoted paragraph.
In the Pathfinder campaign I'm running now, we've been using the "roll Spellcraft into the knowledge skills and keep Concentration as it was" idea as a house rule and it has not only worked very well, but been very well received the players.
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I guess I'll vote that Concentration is gone (as it is in the alpha).
I would also propose that the Combat Casting feat eliminates AoOs (and the chance of losing the spell) due to casting in a threatened area for spells that take 1 Standard Action or less to cast. Anything that takes longer still requires a roll (Spellcraft) and you get +4 on that roll from having the feat.
If we're looking to lose a skill between 3.5 and PF, then why not keep Concentration and combine Spellcraft and Knowledge:Arcana?
SC and K:A are both INT-based skills that really have a LOT of overlap in their function. If all the functions of both were wrapped into K:A and that was given to all casters as a class skill, I don't see how this would do anything but improve the game. No caster that had Spellcraft would complain about using K:A in its place.
Also, I noticed that Spellcraft is now usable as an Untrained Skill. Really? Do we want people who haven't studied magic to be able to identify spells being cast?
If Concentration needs to go, why not have a general rule for casting that uses the Concentration DCs, but you roll it against your CL+CON? This would give all casters the ability to cast defensively or maintain a spell, and would not be a skill at all. Combat Casting feat still works (I'd change it to modify any of these rolls) and we lose the Concentration skill.
-Scott