So there my gnome rogue was, in the middle of combat, trying to open a lock so we could escape from a monster we were not powerful enough to defeat. The lock was hard, but not impossible. This was a time for my character to shine! I just had to wait for the wizard to go. After that I would leave everyone in suspense as I rolled the d20. What a great moment....
And then wizard casts knock and the door opens automatically. No roll, no suspense.... just an open door.
In short, I hate the knock spell. I hate how it opens a door based on the size of it. In essence you could have the smallest, most complicated lock on the planet with DC 50, and a level 3 wizard could open it. Conversely you could have the largest door known to man, built to let Colossal Red Dragons through three abreast with a DC of 5 and a 20th Level Wizard would stare blankly at it. Knock is a horribly worded spell. I would love to see it changed in Pathfinder Beta to something where the spell caster must make a caster level check with the DC equal to the lock. This allows arcane casters a way to get around locks, but not take all the fun from a rogue that has invested skills in opening locks.
As a wizard... I know the knock spell... but at best, I'll have a scroll of it, just in case. I don't waste the second level spell slot on it, since there's a Rogue in the party that should be able to open the door.
Knock works great for those situations where the Rogue tried and failed (it happens), and where the Rogue has ventured off, leaving the rest of the party alone (had that happen once... the Rogue climbed up and over a wall, leaving himself in a room with a bunch of ogres, and the party outside a locked door... the rogue couldn't get to the door without getting killed). Or, if the Rogue is unconscious/dead, and you need to get past a door.
So, I like knock as is. I just think the Wizard in your case was a bit wasteful with his spells.
I strongly agree. Spells automatically working where skill do not sucks. Find Traps, Comprehend Languages, Knock, Levitate and Fly replacing the Climb skill, etc. These spells should give some basic level of ability (more at higher levels), which does not increase too much with caster level - a high level Wizard should not be able to auto-replace a Rogue's Open Locks - not unless the Wizard had chosen to put some points in the appropriate skill. In that respect, I'd like to see Knock give some bonus to skill, and be something where the Wizard can help the Rogue by giving them a bonus, rather than just replacing them.
There's a similar problem with Monk's slow fall ability vs. Feather Fall. Feather Fall is a 1st level spell, and so much better. You don't have to be close to a wall. Why not just give Monk the equivalent of Feather Fall if within the required distance, and leave higher level abilities like Dimension Door for something more interesting. No need for Slow Fall to advance with level. Maybe just require the Monk to make a Climb skill check every additional 20 feet to continue using the ability.
I strongly agree. Spells automatically working where skill do not sucks. Find Traps, Comprehend Languages, Knock, Levitate and Fly replacing the Climb skill, etc. These spells should give some basic level of ability (more at higher levels), which does not increase too much with caster level - a high level Wizard should not be able to auto-replace a Rogue's Open Locks - not unless the Wizard had chosen to put some points in the appropriate skill. In that respect, I'd like to see Knock give some bonus to skill, and be something where the Wizard can help the Rogue by giving them a bonus, rather than just replacing them.
So... the party goes into the dungeon and comes across a locked door. The DC is just high enough that the Rogue needs to roll a 16 to pick the lock. He rolls a 15. The DC is now 21 above the Rogue's ability to pick the lock. If Knock is no longer auto-success, the party may as well call it a day.
If Knock is only an "aid another"... and gives the Rogue a +2... well, great, still not going to help for those times when the Rogue doesn't roll particularly well.
Then there's the problem of dimension door or teleport. Should those spells go away since they can get you past a locked door?
I think the reason these spells exist is because you're not going to have every skill needed maxed by every party... so this allows for a sub-optimal Rogue Build to not 'cause the party to call it a day early. What's wrong with a little flexibility in party building? I've never run into a problem as a Rogue or Wizard using utility spells to get out of a jam and having the Rogue feel undermined.
Actually, as a Wizard I've been criticized by Rogue players for not having Knock ready when they fail to pick a lock!
I can see your point, and don't disagree with the idea of a spell that can help get past doors is useful. What I disagree with is the way the spell is executed. What determines the ease that a wizard opens a door is not its DC, but its size. This, in my opinion, is a poor way of doing it. As for Dimension door and teleport, they are higher level. A third level wizard does not become equivalent in trap opening skills as a 20th level rogue with these spells, because he does not have them.
With just a change to the nature in which the spell works, I believe a much better spell can be produced that allows others to open locks, but does not make it a sure thing OR based on the relative size of the door itself.
So... the party goes into the dungeon and comes across a locked door. The DC is just high enough that the Rogue needs to roll a 16 to pick the lock. He rolls a 15. The DC is now 21 above the Rogue's ability to pick the lock. If Knock is no longer auto-success, the party may as well call it a day.
If Knock is only an "aid another"... and gives the Rogue a +2... well, great, still not going to help for those times when the Rogue doesn't roll particularly well.
I would suggest that Knock give more than a +2 to the Rogue. Skill items scale up to +10, so I would suggest that is the maximum bonus. Maybe something like this:
"The knock spell helps opens stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors. It gives a bonus of +1/level competence bonus (to a maximum of +10) to the Disable Device check to open the lock. In addition, the person attempting to open the lock may take 10 on the Disable Device roll if they wish."
Note that failing to open a lock does not prevent opening a door. You can always bash it down - takes a while due to hardness, but it is usually pretty easy with Power Attack - just noisy.
The knock spell is partially a relic of OD&D and AD&D when you only got one chance to make an Open Lock check. If you failed the check then you were unable to try that lock again until you leveled up. With a knock spell prepared, the party had a way to open the door in case the thief failed his check.
Fast forward to the days of 3.5 and taking 20. I would say more than 90% of the time, a rogue with max ranks in Open Lock is able to open the lock and the rest of the time there is usually a story reason why you can't. The OP's problem sounds more to me like an issue of poor party communication. Why is the wizard encroaching on the rogue's duties when he should be slowing the monsters down with grease or masking the party's escape with obscuring mist? A wizard in a party with a rogue should use knock as a last resort. If the wizard felt the rogue was taking too long with the knock and feared the party would die, then using the knock spell was probably a judicious use of party resources. but that is what differentiates the rogue from the wizard. A wizard has to use resources to open the lock, the rogue does not.
In summary, I don't think the problem is with the knock spell. But in the future, I recommend that you and the party wizard more closely cooperate so that your duties are not so redundant.
Am I the only one who lets the rogue take 20 on open lock, time permitting? Disable device, no, because there is the threat of a trap, and consequences for failure.
I recal second edition had a "if you fail to open the lock, you must wait till you level up to try again" caveat, but I don't recall one in 3rd.
I just checked the SRD, there was nothing under open lock about trying again. So I checked the Skill Description page, where it said "If this paragraph is omitted, the skill can be retried without any inherent penalty, other than the additional time required".
So, it can be retried, time permitting. If there are no consequences for failure (and I dont recall any) then you can take 20. Having a scroll of knock for the possible chance of the rogue failing to get through a door is good planning. Having one "on deck" is looking for a chance to irritate the rogue.
There are plenty of cases, as mentioned above, where knock is useful and warranted. Again, as a scroll.
Sean K. Reynolds had a great article on his webpage about "fewer absolutes" which I often see referenced here. What if Knock instead made an instant, force effect sort of lockpicking attempt (think mini-mage hands moving around the gears. Bonus = 10+Caster Level+Caster Mod? Or just INT? That favors wizards, and what sorceror would blow a slot on Knock? Unless it was a sorceror who had a good reason too, then maybe it should be caster stat instead of int. Either way, I think the resultant "open lock mod" should be significantly better than what an equal level rogue should be able to do, about 5-10 points better. Because the rogue should have masterwork tools, and be able to take 20. The spell gives you one shot, but its fairly reliable.
Edit* K, I got beat out by a person who posted almost 3 hours prior, but my comp didn't display his post on a page I opened 10 minutes ago... left spider kneecap?
So there my gnome rogue was, in the middle of combat, trying to open a lock so we could escape from a monster we were not powerful enough to defeat. The lock was hard, but not impossible. This was a time for my character to shine! I just had to wait for the wizard to go. After that I would leave everyone in suspense as I rolled the d20. What a great moment....
And then wizard casts knock and the door opens automatically. No roll, no suspense.... just an open door.
In short, I hate the knock spell. I hate how it opens a door based on the size of it. In essence you could have the smallest, most complicated lock on the planet with DC 50, and a level 3 wizard could open it. Conversely you could have the largest door known to man, built to let Colossal Red Dragons through three abreast with a DC of 5 and a 20th Level Wizard would stare blankly at it. Knock is a horribly worded spell. I would love to see it changed in Pathfinder Beta to something where the spell caster must make a caster level check with the DC equal to the lock. This allows arcane casters a way to get around locks, but not take all the fun from a rogue that has invested skills in opening locks.
Then go play 4th edition.
Knock is a great spell. As a DM I encourage my players to memorize spells other than just direct damage. Some times a rogue can't open a lock, some times its too powerful.
Do you whine when the barbarian crits with his scythe before you can sneak attack?
Just because someone else can do what you do doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to.
Furthermore, if you're in combat and trying to escape, why the hell would you rather roll lockpicking for 20 rounds while your friends are dying? What about helping the fighter flank?
Would you rather be destroyed before allowing a wizard to trump you?
Is your pride really so important?
Is it really so important to create suspense?
How many must die before you get the suspense you want so much?
How many hits must the fighter take, how many spells must the wizard and cleric waste while YOU keep wasting time?
I can't think of any group that wouldn't be pissed off at you for being so stubborn.
I strongly agree. Spells automatically working where skill do not sucks. Find Traps, Comprehend Languages, Knock, Levitate and Fly replacing the Climb skill, etc. These spells should give some basic level of ability (more at higher levels), which does not increase too much with caster level - a high level Wizard should not be able to auto-replace a Rogue's Open Locks - not unless the Wizard had chosen to put some points in the appropriate skill. In that respect, I'd like to see Knock give some bonus to skill, and be something where the Wizard can help the Rogue by giving them a bonus, rather than just replacing them.
There's a similar problem with Monk's slow fall ability vs. Feather Fall. Feather Fall is a 1st level spell, and so much better. You don't have to be close to a wall. Why not just give Monk the equivalent of Feather Fall if within the required distance, and leave higher level abilities like Dimension Door for something more interesting. No need for Slow Fall to advance with level. Maybe just require the Monk to make a Climb skill check every additional 20 feet to continue using the ability.
I am going to disagree with you completely here.
Spells that do what skills do only better don't suck. Its MAGIC its SUPPOSED to be powerful. By your logic, fireball should require an attack roll and only do 2d6 to be "fair" to the fighters.
Forcing the monk to make a skill check is a huge kick in the nuts to monk players.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ahem, trying to remain civil, probie.
1) Time hop is more fun, because 30 seconds later, the door is back.
2) I'll agree, utility spells are much under appricated. When my battle sorcerer learned Shadow Evocation I was surprised to see some of the fun utility spells there. (I used Defenestrating Sphere to throw myself through an antimagic zone, for example)
As to Knock As Written (KAW)
1) The volume thing does strike me as a funny break down. It can disarm one of those unpickable safes with the glass inside, or remove a bar from a door, but put the same safe lock on a really big vault door and it's useless?
2) Part of having fun in a game is not stepping on the other's toes. Your Criticalling Barbarian thresher is a bad example. This would be more akin to the barbarian picking the lock. Sure he can bash it down but that's neitehr stylish nor silent. An auto success knock is akin to the Fighter throwing fireballs at the bad guy, or the cleric being a better fighter in meele.
Ok, so the last one is a bad example, but you get my point. ;-)
Then go play 4th edition.Knock is a great spell. As a DM I encourage my players to memorize spells other than just direct damage. Some times a rogue can't open a lock, some times its too powerful.
Do you whine when the barbarian crits with his scythe before you can sneak attack?
Just because someone else can do what you do doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to.
1. If I wanted to play 4e, then I would not be here. Please do not insult my opinion on an open forum dedicated to making a system we can all love (or at least tolerate and feel a part of). I will try to pay you the same courtesy.
2. Please remember that I am not criticizing the ability for the Wizard to pick a lock via magic, but rather the ability for him to do it without rolling AND that the mechanic for whether he is able to succeed (i.e. size being the determining factor) is silly, in my opinion.
3. No I do not whine when the barbarian crits and kills something before I can. To crit, the barbarian must roll dice. There is a possibility of failure or success.
In short if the scenario I posted went something like ".. and then the wizard cast a spell, made a check and made the DC" I would not complain about it. The suspense was still there.
What I want out of this discussion is just a spell that is better made.