I know some that at least Herald was looking for a Monk think tank. Squirrelloid and I have both come up with an alternate Monk.
Squirrelloid's is Here
Mine is Here
We've both taken different approaches to the monk.Let's think about it, in a CIVILIZED manner.
Honestly, I like the 'Fall From The Heavens' and the 'Leap Of The Heavens' as well as 'Monk's Stride' but I think I like many of the ideas in Squirrelloid's build better. (Notably the variety of combat maneuvers that impose movement effects, and the use of simple weapons.)
That being said, I do think some of the abilities Squirrelloid has given his monk are a bit too powerful, or do too much damage. I very much enjoy the flavor of them, though.
If both of these versions were combined, it'd make a very cool class focused on mobility and shutting down the mobility of others.
Add a Longspear with all these movement and movement shutting down abilities and you have one hell of a character.
Edit: I am, of course, biased towards anyone who uses one of my ideas in his builds. :P
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OK great, did you compare it to the existing pathfinder monk also?
An I think I included most of Squirrel's Ki Abilities, I just modified some of them.
The biggest change different that his are using the original AC/Wis instead of his AC system.
I put those Ki maneuvers under the Qi Powers spoiler, and I modified a couple of them, and renamed a couple of others, but they're there.
The monk is really one of those classes that should be redesigned from the ground up. I believe most of the problems stem from the monk's abilities in that there is really no cohesion to them. The original 3e monk was a throwback to 1e (just like the 3e ogre mage), and the 3.5 version wasn't really changed.
I like the concept of monk training or abilities like part the veil, but feel that these small solutions won't solve the greater problem that the monk has. That is, the lack of a clearly defined role. Really, monks need to be either a replacement fighter or a replacement rogue, not some weird mixture of both with a hodge-podge of loosely related abilities.
Redesigning the class would also stop the problem of giving the existing monk too many abilities and suddenly making them more powerful than the other classes without really realizing it. I think more thought needs to go into the basics of the class.
All that being said, I have actually played a 3.5 monk successfully in a campaign. So, go figure!
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The monk is really one of those classes that should be redesigned from the ground up. I believe most of the problems stem from the monk's abilities in that there is really no cohesion to them. The original 3e monk was a throwback to 1e (just like the 3e ogre mage), and the 3.5 version wasn't really changed.
I like the concept of monk training or abilities like part the veil, but feel that these small solutions won't solve the greater problem that the monk has. That is, the lack of a clearly defined role. Really, monks need to be either a replacement fighter or a replacement rogue, not some weird mixture of both with a hodge-podge of loosely related abilities.
Redesigning the class would also stop the problem of giving the existing monk too many abilities and suddenly making them more powerful than the other classes without really realizing it. I think more thought needs to go into the basics of the class.
All that being said, I have actually played a 3.5 monk successfully in a campaign. So, go figure!
But we can't do a full redesign of the class, Jason has already pointed that out. We have to work within an acceptable boundary of backwards compatibility.
So working within those parameters, do you have any suggestions?
What do you feel is the best and worst feature of each of the 3 designs currently on the table?
I feel they are taking a rogue's role.
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Since this is a better place to post my ideas, I will place them here.
A couple of proposals. I as still of the mindset that says that the monk should be a versital mobile attacker. The versitality should come in the form of a monisic martial arts tradition that further augments his fighting abilities. My concept as ill formed as it is would be simular to the idea that exists with sorcerers in that the powers are thematicly linked. As soon as I can get some time I will try and come up with a suggestion.
On other thoughts presented here.
Pehaps a concept that should be considered is channeling ki to stat buff? Since the Monk need to has a problem with MAD, perhaps Spending one two or three points (or 2, 4 or 6 points) could give you a lesser cats grace, cat's grace or greater cats grace?
I will just reference the other monk thread (bandaid on chestwound)in this section and under new ideas (CMB penalties due to condition), with both my ideas regarding CMB and movement for the monk...and my questions regarding CMB and condition.
It's somewhat important to know if any enemy/battlefield conditions effect or modify a targets CMB number before going too much further with the monk and judging how effective it is.
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Since this is a better place to post my ideas, I will place them here.
A couple of proposals. I as still of the mindset that says that the monk should be a versital mobile attacker. The versitality should come in the form of a monisic martial arts tradition that further augments his fighting abilities. My concept as ill formed as it is would be simular to the idea that exists with sorcerers in that the powers are thematicly linked. As soon as I can get some time I will try and come up with a suggestion.
On other thoughts presented here.
Pehaps a concept that should be considered is channeling ki to stat buff? Since the Monk need to has a problem with MAD, perhaps Spending one two or three points (or 2, 4 or 6 points) could give you a lesser cats grace, cat's grace or greater cats grace?
That Idea has some great merit. Did you have a chance to look at my monk build? It allows greater versatility, and adds a new ability called monk's stride, which gives more mobility at 9 and 18 granting a 10ft step and 15ft step respectively. It also allows the monk to charge in non-linear fashion. I was thinking of allowing Monk's stride to ignore difficult terrain, ala kung fu movies.
I think one of the largest prohibitive factors to both the fighter and the monk at higher levels is their loss of iterative attacks based on 3.5's full attack rules and movement in combat.
Obviously this becomes even more of a factor with the monk because one of their main abilities is their extra speed and one of their main combat abilities is flurry of blows.
I think the monk needs a couple of things, first they should have an ability that allows them to tumble and leap during a charge which would increase their mobility and combat ability, I would even go so far to say they should be able to leap just about anywhere and at any time as a charge in place of "x" amount of movement. It only makes sense that they should be the most mobile 'fighter' in any party.
Also the flurry of blows should be able to be beefed up at later levels, whether this is with ki strikes or magically augmented 'fist wraps' or whatever you want to say. Each of the blows should have a different option during a full attack. This would be especially be usefull if it somehow increases the utility of the additional iterative attacks ala fighting style feats or Bo9S.
Anyway they defintely need something more, but I don't think they need a whole re-build.
I have a question concerning the monk's unarmed attack. Is a monk's unarmed attack considered "armed" for the purposes of Combat Maneuvers? For example, would a monk receive a -4 penalty on an unarmed attack to disarm an opponent or due to his training would the disarm attempt be treated as if he was using a weapon?
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I have a question concerning the monk's unarmed attack. Is a monk's unarmed attack considered "armed" for the purposes of Combat Maneuvers? For example, would a monk receive a -4 penalty on an unarmed attack to disarm an opponent or due to his training would the disarm attempt be treated as if he was using a weapon?
Improved unarmed attack makes your hands into weapons, you're not actually unarmed. In addition unarmed is considered a finesse weapon.
Another option to boost a monks attack without actually increasing BAB is the most simple of things...have their unarmed attacks count as +1 weapons /4 levels. so by 20th level they're considered +5 weapons. This eliminates the need for the Ki:adamantine Ki:lawful powers in regards to the new DR system.
In fact I think I'll revise my monk write up to indicate the change.
Another option to boost a monks attack without actually increasing BAB is the most simple of things...have their unarmed attacks count as +1 weapons /4 levels. so by 20th level they're considered +5 weapons. This eliminates the need for the Ki:adamantine Ki:lawful powers in regards to the new DR system.In fact I think I'll revise my monk write up to indicate the change.
This is an excellent idea as with the change in the DR rules, the monk's unarmed attack was left behind so to speak.
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I have a question concerning the monk's unarmed attack. Is a monk's unarmed attack considered "armed" for the purposes of Combat Maneuvers? For example, would a monk receive a -4 penalty on an unarmed attack to disarm an opponent or due to his training would the disarm attempt be treated as if he was using a weapon?Improved unarmed attack makes your hands into weapons, you're not actually unarmed. In addition unarmed is considered a finesse weapon.
Another option to boost a monks attack without actually increasing BAB is the most simple of things...have their unarmed attacks count as +1 weapons /4 levels. so by 20th level they're considered +5 weapons. This eliminates the need for the Ki:adamantine Ki:lawful powers in regards to the new DR system.
In fact I think I'll revise my monk write up to indicate the change.
I read that. Nice touch on the Qi powers on that new revision. I like how you can get the Monk to up his ability scores without actually doing a spell like ability like I suggested. The dirations seem a little fast if you ask me. Perhaps something that a longer duration/level?
The monk is really one of those classes that should be redesigned from the ground up. I believe most of the problems stem from the monk's abilities in that there is really no cohesion to them. The original 3e monk was a throwback to 1e (just like the 3e ogre mage), and the 3.5 version wasn't really changed.
I like the concept of monk training or abilities like part the veil, but feel that these small solutions won't solve the greater problem that the monk has. That is, the lack of a clearly defined role. Really, monks need to be either a replacement fighter or a replacement rogue, not some weird mixture of both with a hodge-podge of loosely related abilities.
Redesigning the class would also stop the problem of giving the existing monk too many abilities and suddenly making them more powerful than the other classes without really realizing it. I think more thought needs to go into the basics of the class.
All that being said, I have actually played a 3.5 monk successfully in a campaign. So, go figure!
But we can't do a full redesign of the class, Jason has already pointed that out. We have to work within an acceptable boundary of backwards compatibility.
So working within those parameters, do you have any suggestions?
What do you feel is the best and worst feature of each of the 3 designs currently on the table?
I feel they are taking a rogue's role.
See backwards-compatability arguments start to wear thin on me when people change every class by adding a ream of abilities, change the Hit Dice of the classes and change several other things to boot, and then carry on about changing the BAB of a class or dropping some of the classes abilities.
I would start by stripping away most of the monk's higher-level supernatural abilities. I'm sorry, but abilities like timeless body, perfect self and diamond soul might have "flavor" but few of the abilities are actually useful and most of them are not linked in a believable way. Some people might balk at removing timeless body, diamond body or tongue of the sun and moon, but none of the abilities really make the monk a better monk. So, that's the first thing I would do. Remove some of the higher order supernatural abilities of the monk with the exception of abundant step and empty body (both for movement purposes)
The monk's ultimate attributes are maneuverability, speed and the ability to make lots of strikes. I would give monks a bonus to Acrobatics, Climb and Jump checks, and increase this bonus as the monk increases in level. I would allow them to take 10 on these checks once they reached a certain level, and would give them a range of supernatural abilities that would help them cover distances quickly or take the fight to hard-to-reach foes, such as the ability to fly for limited durations and balance on impossibly narrow surfaces (much like the wuxia monks of film and literature). This would give them more movement options.
I would use your qi power idea for combat. Monks would be able to spend their qi points to improve their AC, gain the same BAB as a fighter, make flurry of blows attacks, reroll dice rolls, or stun victims (or nauseate or daze). I would also increase the number of qi points a monk would get each level (like others have suggested). I would actually remove the whole bonus feat section as people can never seem to agree on what feats should go in the monk's grab-bag.
I would create ki straps and leave amulet of mighty fists (but call it amulet of mighty attacks). The ki straps would be less expensive than the amulet but could only be used by monks and those with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
I would improve monk weapons by increasing the damage monks can do with them. Basically, the monk weapons would improve whenever the monk's unarmed attacks improve. Monk weapons would always do one less damage dice however, to prevent monk's relaying on them at all the time. I would also increase the range of monk weapons to include spears and various types of swords (such as the butterfly sword and even longsword).
This is a very quick rundown of the changes I would make, hence they would probably need a great deal more revision and thought.
Like I stated in the band aid thread, I think Wis should be the main stat for Monk. I hate the idea that the Monk should have magic fist amulet or ki straps of destruction. I would rather see them get enhancement to their unarmed strikes based on 1/2 Wis mod, and use a ki pool based(monk lvl+wis mod) to say get some elemental stuff going, say a Ki point to enhance the unarmed strike for flaming,frost,acid or whatever that lasts for 1/2 monk lvl+wis mod rounds. Think about it, a Monk's strength should be versatility, throw in some Ki strikes based on somehow debilitating an opponent, and the ability to use his inner Ki to summon up a flaming fist, or freezing touch. At the same time, the inner Mr Miagi in them should let them ease anothers pain, by say tapping into another characters Ki to help someone heal, or remove blindness, isnt that also what a Monks supposed to do? The idea that they can self buff with their Ki points also excite me. But instead of making the buff enhancement related, I would prefer to see it insight related to make it more flavor oriented.
Just my .02
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Like I stated in the band aid thread, I think Wis should be the main stat for Monk. I hate the idea that the Monk should have magic fist amulet or ki straps of destruction. I would rather see them get enhancement to their unarmed strikes based on 1/2 Wis mod, and use a ki pool based(monk lvl+wis mod) to say get some elemental stuff going, say a Ki point to enhance the unarmed strike for flaming,frost,acid or whatever that lasts for 1/2 monk lvl+wis mod rounds. Think about it, a Monk's strength should be versatility, throw in some Ki strikes based on somehow debilitating an opponent, and the ability to use his inner Ki to summon up a flaming fist, or freezing touch. At the same time, the inner Mr Miagi in them should let them ease anothers pain, by say tapping into another characters Ki to help someone heal, or remove blindness, isnt that also what a Monks supposed to do? The idea that they can self buff with their Ki points also excite me. But instead of making the buff enhancement related, I would prefer to see it insight related to make it more flavor oriented.
Just my .02
I totally agree, Wis should be the Primary stat for monks, I just used a different strategy for it in my build. I took the Monk's Wisdom at first level and made it used in place of STR for attack and damage rolls.
Instead of basing the unarmed strike enhancement on 1/2 wis though, I used their levels at +1 per 4 levels. As it would take a +10 wisdom bonus to attain +5 equivalence, and at level 1 it would be possible to have a +2 equivalence quite easily, which would unbalance the class.
Adding additional Qi strikes which emulate elemental attacks would be easy to add using my Qi power pool system. 1 Qi could add an elemental attack for 1 round, (or as some people have stated with my build 1 round/2 Monk levels. Though I could see WIS bonus rounds.) 2 Qi could add elemental burst. I would leave "Bane abilities" out tho.
I totally agree, Wis should be the Primary stat for monks, I just used a different strategy for it in my build. I took the Monk's Wisdom at first level and made it used in place of STR for attack and damage rolls.
Instead of basing the unarmed strike enhancement on 1/2 wis though, I used their levels at +1 per 4 levels. As it would take a +10 wisdom bonus to attain +5 equivalence, and at level 1 it would be possible to have a +2 equivalence quite easily, which would unbalance the class.
Except I was saying to give Monks this ability as a class feature around Lvl 6 "Zen Mastery" or some such
Adding additional Qi strikes which emulate elemental attacks would be easy to add using my Qi power pool system. 1 Qi could add an elemental attack for 1 round, (or as some people have stated with my build 1 round/2 Monk levels. Though I could see WIS bonus rounds.) 2 Qi could add elemental burst. I would leave "Bane abilities" out tho.
Yes, use the Ki, Chi, or Monk pool to improve their strikes for a # of rounds would allow them to be versatile in every combat encounter. It works in my book
One thing that i see missing is feats to accent movement. A monks speed goes up as they go up in levels (60' at 20) but still they're suppose to stand in one space and fight. Add in a little of the Scout flavor. More move and attack. Also why not be able to spend ki points to make attacks that do other damage types like fire, electricity, ice, etc.
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One thing that i see missing is feats to accent movement. A monks speed goes up as they go up in levels (60' at 20) but still they're suppose to stand in one space and fight. Add in a little of the Scout flavor. More move and attack. Also why not be able to spend ki points to make attacks that do other damage types like fire, electricity, ice, etc.
Mobility and spring attack are bonus monk feats...Monk training in my Monk version.
I added Monk's Stride to mine, which allows a 10ft step at 9th level and 15ft step at 16th level.
I also added elemental Qi powers to my Monk build
What does the community think about adding uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge special abilities to the monk class? I think these abilities make perfect sense for the monk class.
In the interest of backwards compatibility and not deviating too far from what was published in Alpha 3, I've devised my own little take on the monk class . . . please don't tear me to shreds.
Mad props to Xaaon of Xen'drik for the +1 enhancement/4 levels concept. I think it's an elegant, balanced solution to a very prominent monk problem. I don't know if it causes issues as far as the monk not needing to buy magic weapons the way other classes do, but then, I suppose that was always kind of their shtick anyway.
I've been fooling around with this personal version with my own level 9 monk, and so far, it's been going pretty well.
Suggested Monk Progression - Everything is the same as it is in ALPHA 3 unless otherwise noted.
1 Bonus feat, flurry of blows*, unarmed strike (masterwork)*, AC bonus, unarmored speed
2 Bonus Feat, evasion
3 Maneuver training, still mind
4 Ki pool* (magic), slow fall 20 ft., unarmed strike (+1 enhancement)*
5 High jump, purity of body
6 Bonus feat, slow fall 30 ft.
7 Wholeness of body
8 Slow fall 40 ft., unarmed strike (+2 enhancement)
9 Improved evasion
10 Bonus feat, Ki pool (lawful), slow fall 50 ft.
11 Diamond Body
12 Abundant step*, slow fall 60 ft., unarmed strike (+3 enhancement)
13 Diamond soul (SR=11+monk level)
14 Bonus feat, slow fall 70 ft.
15 Quivering palm
16 Ki pool (admantine), unarmed strike (+4 enhancement), slow fall 80 ft.
17 Timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon
18 Bonus feat, slow fall 90 ft.
19 Empty body
20 Perfect self, feather fall*, unarmed strike (+5 enhancement)
* Class features that have been changed from that found in the Pathfinder Alpha 3 release
Flurry of Blows: Upon reaching 13th level, the monk may spend 3 ki points to use her flurry of blows as a standard action.
(So that it can be used in combination with the monk's highly-stressed mobility)
Unarmed Strike (masterwork): (In addition to the printed rules regarding the monk unarmed strike) The monk’s body is considered to be such an achievement of martial artistry that her unarmed strikes are considered masterwork, granting her a +1 bonus to all attack rolls made with her fists, elbows, feet, or knees.
(As a sort of appetizer to the enhancement bonus and to help at the lower levels.)
Ki pool: As printed except: The monk’s ki pool is equal to her current monk level + her Wisdom bonus (if any).
(This might be a bit too much, but I feel the current ki pool is rather small . . . )
Unarmed Strike (+1 enhancement): As the monk progresses in her training, her unarmed strikes become more accurate and deadly. At 4th level, her unarmed strikes receive a +1 enhancement bonus (identical to that which an equivalent magic weapon would receive). This bonus replaces the masterwork bonus granted at 1st level. This increases at every fourth level thereafter to a maximum enhancement bonus of +5 at 20th level.
(To increase the likeliness to hit at higher levels without forking out half their loot for an easily lost amulet)
Abundant Step: As printed except: By spending an additional ki point, the monk may take actions after using her abundant step, unlike the spell dimension door.
(To allow the monk to take other actions when combined with this mobility power).
Feather Fall: By spending 2 ki points, the monk may fall at a safe speed as if using the spell feather fall as an immediate action.
(I think it gives the monk a nice wuxia flavor, replaces the slow fall at any distance, and really, it's only the equivalent of a first level spell.)
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Everything is the same unless otherwise noted. I personally like a lot of the so-called "weird" powers of the class. In the average fantasy setting which is almost exclusively Western-influenced, the powers of the far East are supposed to be sort of exotic. I just feel that the class needs to be as much martial as it is artist.
As so many of you are seasoned players and experts, I would LOVE feedback from you guys on this, since it might be something I continue to use in my games if its viable.
Here is my quick and easy fix.
1. make their shocking grasp DC better.
2. Up their hit die to D10, if not a D12, as I see them being physically as tough as any barbarian.
3. Make Gauntlets, gleeves (boots), and body specific armor (not grant AC bonus) count as weapons and up their unarmed damage by like +1, and be enchantable as weapons that work with the monk's unarmed damage.
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OK remember, Jason already said we need to maintain backwards compatibility, no d10 HD...not going to happen...BAB is not going up either...
My monk addresses many of these problems. here
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I've been thinking about the monk for a while as well. An idea I've integrated into my House Rules is the creation of a new archetype for the monk. This allows him to shine and adds greatly to the standard party. I believe that the monk should be the party's Stun-Gun. While the class I've linked at the bottom is in need of some updates (Abundant step as move action?) and some integration into Pathfinder's system, I believe it's a good set of ideas to add to those put forward in this thread and the Pathfinder RPG.
Go to Stun-Gun.
TwinSteel
I agree that there are a few abilities that the monk has that really don't make any difference like timeless body. I think we need to start with how we view the monk. Is it jet-li over the top wuxia style? In which case dex should be the primary attribute with an emphasis on movement and include agile manouvers, spring attack or improved initiative as a free feat? Is it the David Carradine version of someone who's strength comes through discipline and meditation? Then wisdom should be the primary stat and maybe toughness as a free feat or endurance or dodge and mobility. If you picture someone who can punch through walls then strength is going to be your primary stat with power attack as a free feat.
I don't like the idea of a strength-based monk just for flavour reasons. I think it is probably easier to be a fighter and go for unarmed strike and improved unarmed strike maybe.
I have always thought the monks role was as a leader killer. With their improved mobility they should be able to get to the enemy cleric or leader and prevent them casting spells or issuing commands. At a pinch they can be a back-up scout. To do this they need to be able to do combat manouvers to trip, pin or ideally stun an opponent. They also need to be highly mobile. I think monks should automatically gain the run feat so they don't lose dex bonus when they are charging.
I would also like them to get some variant of ride-by-attack so that they can do the cinematic charge past their opponent attack.
Alternatively what about letting them use their Ki pool to attack attributes? If they could do that I don't think it would unbalance the game because you could choose how many ki points it would cost but it would give them an ability that would be relatively unique (I know rogues get tricks and you can get poison to do it as well). I think that would be pretty cool. Of course some monsters would be immune. If you were worried about it being too powerful make it level dependent e.g. -1 to a stat every 4 levels per attack. So a 20th level monk can take 5 of a stat if he hits. He should be able to do something funky at that level. I mean lets be realistic. As is the monk will never be the damage dealer that a rogue, fighter, barbarian or even wizard would be.
Maybe I just like the thought of the vulcan death-grip or the the wizard getting woozy and confused because he has been kicked in the head (kinda makes sense).
p.s It seems odd that the monk who's only reason for existence is thumping things in combat is worse at it that a paladin, whose job arguably is to provide spiritual guidance and leadership. I know paladins fight but it is not their only purpose in life. As someone who has dabbled in various martial arts, I can tell you that being unarmed against someone with a weapon really sucks and even if you know what you are doing you need to be good. I think anyone who would knowingly go on adventures to KILL things with their bare hands would have to be pretty phenomenal. I know there are rules being used like 3/4 bab for 1d8 hp but unlike the rogue, cleric, and bard you only fight. Keep the hit dice the same but change the bab if only for unarmed attacks.
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I recently had an epiphany, what if monks don't need any enhancements to their fists, because when they are unarmed, they attack the opponents touch AC? so now with your +15 BAB at level 20, you aren't hindered at all.
Thoughts, reactions?
Just remember no flames...civility in this thread
edit!!!! this would only work with flurry of blows, otherwise we'll have all sorts of dipping into 1 level of monk for the touch strikes!
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I recently had an epiphany, what if monks don't need any enhancements to their fists, because when they are unarmed, they attack the opponents touch AC? so now with your +15 BAB at level 20, you aren't hindered at all.
Thoughts, reactions?
Just remember no flames...civility in this thread
edit!!!! this would only work with flurry of blows, otherwise we'll have all sorts of dipping into 1 level of monk for the touch strikes!
Waaaay too powerful, if you ask me. What non-Epic creature has a touch AC above about 20, maybe 25 tops, except another monk, or maybe a will-o-wisp? That's basically guaranteed hits for higher (13+) level monks. Touch AC is just 10 + size modifier (for monsters, usually a penalty) + Dex modifier + deflection bonus (and then maybe the rare insight or luck bonuses). Most monsters don't have Dex 30+ and a +5 or greater deflection bonus, at least not until well into Epic levels, so their touch ACs will not be that high at all, compared to the attack roll of a monk with a +15 BAB and a decent Str modifier.
Edit: Maybe letting them add their class AC bonus to Flurry attacks would balance things out, but it basically gives them the same trap as a two-weapon fighter - if they move, they lose a vast amount of their combat potential per round.
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I recently had an epiphany, what if monks don't need any enhancements to their fists, because when they are unarmed, they attack the opponents touch AC? so now with your +15 BAB at level 20, you aren't hindered at all.
Thoughts, reactions?
Just remember no flames...civility in this thread
edit!!!! this would only work with flurry of blows, otherwise we'll have all sorts of dipping into 1 level of monk for the touch strikes!
Waaaay too powerful, if you ask me. What non-Epic creature has a touch AC above about 20, maybe 25 tops, except another monk, or maybe a will-o-wisp? That's basically guaranteed hits for higher (13+) level monks. Touch AC is just 10 + size modifier (for monsters, usually a penalty) + Dex modifier + deflection bonus (and then maybe the rare insight or luck bonuses). Most monsters don't have Dex 30+ and a +5 or greater deflection bonus, at least not until well into Epic levels, so their touch ACs will not be that high at all, compared to the attack roll of a monk with a +15 BAB and a decent Str modifier.
Edit: Maybe letting them add their class AC bonus to Flurry attacks would balance things out, but it basically gives them the same trap as a two-weapon fighter - if they move, they lose a vast amount of their combat potential per round.
after looking at the MM I think you might be right...ok I'll just go back to my original monk.
Yeah, in my monk version, I added the ability to move farther as a step, since they move so quickly...when they have 60' move, they can step 10', when they can move 90' they can step 15', this allows more battlefield mobility without losing attacks.
I like a lot of what several of you did - the monk has always been my favorite class, and I've never really been happy with any official version of him. I said it in one of the other threads - I'd like to see something where Ki points synergize with Psi points - they're basically the same thing (sheer willpower). I'd say put something in that a multi-class psi/Monk could use the two interchangeably (just a flavor thing, but then you can create one of those weird 'Mystic' monks).
I have to print out all three versions and compare them side-by-side - I do really like the +1 every four levels - it alleviates the need to start looking for echanted Monk weapons and gives him a much-needed extra boost.
Flurry - its the Monk's bread & butter... and I hate it. I understand it flavor wise, but it just seems so broken to me in application. I'd like to see some choices there as well, as someone else already suggested.
I like the idea of giving them the 10' and 15' step, but that may be a bit much when added to their other movement, unless you meant for the step movement to be deducted from their total movement?
Lastly - as a big fan of Wuxia and Japanime I love the idea of giving the Monk some Elemental abilties - but I think that's best left for a PrC. If you put all of that into the base class, the Monk starts to look like a Shugenja.
Idea:
Perhaps instead of a PrC, there could be a Monk-only Elemental Feat similar to the Mage's Energy substitution - he must choose a single energy type to study, and all of his attacks will deal that type of damage. The Feat could be taken more then once for more variety of attacks, and there could also be a chain of Feats - Elemental Fury, Improved Elemenetal Fury, and Greater Elemental Fury. I'm thinking the first just changes damage type, the second adds a little damage, and the third gives a chance of causing additional damage over time.
I think that would aleviate the need for Elemental powers built-in, and give the Monk a litle more versatility.
Now that I think about it, a lot of the monks problems could just be fixed with some good Feat chains - but then we'd have to give him a few more bonus Feats (in lieu of some of his other powers, which can also then be turned into Feats for backwards-compatibility?
I just feel that monks now lack all the flavour of a master martial artist. I love the whole over-the-top theatricality of asian movies. In theory any class can become that class instantly but I just don't buy that. It is why I liked the old skill system because it seemed to support the idea that you were apprenticed in the class you start with which is why you have so many more skill points.
Anyway, I also really like the idea of more abilities using ki powers (and more ki points would help). I would like them to be unique abilities that you can't get just by class dipping into a wizard or sorceror. I have seen so many good ideas.
Has anyone experimented with making a monk using a fighter build or a thief build and comparing it to a monk build. What I mean is making an unarmed fighter variant using different classes and seeing what really works and then putting them up against each other or against monsters.
If the monk doesn't outdo the others in his or her area of expertise (supposedly)of unarmed combat then I think the monk class needs to be revamped or at least buffed so it can fulfill it's role and not just be around for fluff reasons.
As for elemental effects, although cool, I think they are a litle bit too video game for me.
Thought I'd reference my thoughts on the other monk thread as well (the "sucking chest wound" thread).
1 - monks need to have weapon and and ac enhancement bonuses as readily available as other classes. This means the ability to buy things like ki straps, and armor bonuses. Maybe some people won't like the flavor of this, but every other class employs magic items for basic combat. You can run a low-magic campaign if you want, but if you want a monk class that can play in any campaign (low or high) it needs to be intially set even with the other classes. Also, monk weapons with enhancments don't solve this problem because of their loss in damage dice.
2 - MAD is a huge problem. We need to cut it to 3 stats at most. If we want to keep focus on Wisdom, we need to cut out either strength or dex. Since Wisdom adds to AC, dex seems the likliest choice, but it would need to be clear that wisdom works for just about everything dex normally does. If you want to sub wis for str, then wis would definitely need to go to hit and damage. In any event, if Wis is going to substitute in this fashion, then the regular stat, either Dex or Str can't do the same or the monks will double stat bonuses. For multiclassing purposes, once you go into monk levels, you permanently use Wis instead of the other stat.
3 - Monks should be the masters of combat maneuvers. People have said that monk abilities are really just a random bag of powers; that they don't hold together well. I think that monks should be the masters of combat maneuvers. They should get all the combat maneuver feats, and maybe additional bonuses. People have debated how smart it is to have the CMB number be 15+CMB (I prefer 11), but in any case the monk could have an additional bonus, so they have more than a 25% chance of success on average.
To make the monk mechanically worth playing, IMO, requires three things:
1) Use Fighting Styles. All monks are not the same; let the rules reflect this without being completely flavorless. Given the love that sorcerers got in Pathfinder Alpha 3, adding a couple (two) pages for monk styles shouldn't be a whole lot of effort.
2) Change the monk weapons (probably make them different depending on style). Please, move the 3.x monk beyond the Japanese/Okinawan monk/ninja stereotype. 1st Ed AD&D (and the D&D Master Set, for that matter) had a less stereotyped monk.
3) Give the monk 6 + Int mod Skill Points. As it stands, they are the red-headed step-child of 3.x; they are the only class in the PHB that lacks full BAB, spellcasting, AND at least 6 + Int mod skill points. Every other class has at least one of those traits. In 1st Ed AD&D, they could perform all the functions as a thief except for backstab, pick pockets, and read languages/use scrolls.
An additional thing that might be worthwhile:
2a) Give the monk some sort of reason beyond Flurry of Blows to use their "monk weapons." Taking a page from the 1st Ed AD&D monk, perhaps giving them +1 precision damage per 2 (or 3) monk levels with the weapons associated with their style.
I just looked at the fighting styles. I like the idea but I don't think they are done very well. Just make a better range of monk specific feats and feat trees and a few extra ki-effects. Maybe just make flurry-of-blows a standard action, not a full action and that would solve a lot of the monks woes. These all seem like easy fixes to me.
Yes, if you just created 3-5 feat trees (initially - more can be added later in othe PFRGP products), you can give all the flavor of alternate styles WITHOUT over-complicating the rules (or changing/creating new ones).
However, this goes back to my point that if all the monks flavor abilites were made into Feats, then you could probably build a BETTER Monk using the fighter!
As I said earlier - take out some of the less-sensical abilites (turn those into Feats as well?), and give him more Feats, like the fighter. Only keep the the Agility/movement abilites because they capture the flavor and purpose of the Monk class.
More BAB would be good, but you can keep what they have by giving them bonuses elsewhere (like using their AC bonus as a BAB-bonus variant, for less-defensive styles).
I really like the idea of trimming down their need for multiple stats - either using Wisdom in lieu of Str or Dex are both good - maybe make them an intial style choice (power vs speed), similar to the PF Sorceror's bloodlines?
Perhaps something along these lines -
Diamond-Fist School - all about hitting, Char has the choice of using Wis in anything situation in place of strength, and gets his AC bonus as BAB bonus instead.
Sleeping-Cobra Style - Fast hitting, but still defensive. Char has a choice of using Dex instead of Str in any situation.
Angry-Tortoise Style - Hard Hitting and defensive. Char gets to use Wis in any situation instead of Str.
Naked-Cheetah Style - Fast and furious, offering no protection. Char may use Wis instead of Dex in any situation, and uses his AC bonus instead as a BAB bonus.
These are just really quick examples I came up with - I'm sure others can can do something better. I'd also take away the automatic Wis bonus to AC (because its built into the styles now), and give the Monk a bonus feat instead (getting him on his way to learning specific katas - which would be represented by Feat-trees).
BTW, the way I substituted Dex and Str here for different schools is reminiscent of the 1e 'Hard' and 'Soft' styles. I think Gary Gygax was onto to something with his early build, and some of that can be used for PF by adapting it forward to 3e.
Has anyone thought about giving a monk a feat in a reach weapon? Attack, move back, take attack of opportunity, move back, repeat until the barbarian is dead.
Has anyone thought about giving a monk a feat in a reach weapon? Attack, move back, take attack of opportunity, move back, repeat until the barbarian is dead.
How do you set that up? I guess Spiked Chain is the only weapon capable of that trick. Granted, there are a few monastery write-ups of monks specializing as chain-wielders.
hit the guy take a 5 ft step back. When he moves forward because you have reach you get to attack him don't you?
hit the guy take a 5 ft step back. When he moves forward because you have reach you get to attack him don't you?
How do you get 10ft (or whatever the reach) away from your target without moving? That is, so that you're still allowed to take a 5ft step. And even if you can what's stopping the opponent to close up, take the AoO, and then you're next to each other. That is, yes, you get the AoO. But he gets to attack as well.
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To make the monk mechanically worth playing, IMO, requires three things:
1) Use Fighting Styles. All monks are not the same; let the rules reflect this without being completely flavorless. Given the love that sorcerers got in Pathfinder Alpha 3, adding a couple (two) pages for monk styles shouldn't be a whole lot of effort.
2) Change the monk weapons (probably make them different depending on style). Please, move the 3.x monk beyond the Japanese/Okinawan monk/ninja stereotype. 1st Ed AD&D (and the D&D Master Set, for that matter) had a less stereotyped monk.
3) Give the monk 6 + Int mod Skill Points. As it stands, they are the red-headed step-child of 3.x; they are the only class in the PHB that lacks full BAB, spellcasting, AND at least 6 + Int mod skill points. Every other class has at least one of those traits. In 1st Ed AD&D, they could perform all the functions as a thief except for backstab, pick pockets, and read languages/use scrolls.
An additional thing that might be worthwhile:
2a) Give the monk some sort of reason beyond Flurry of Blows to use their "monk weapons." Taking a page from the 1st Ed AD&D monk, perhaps giving them +1 precision damage per 2 (or 3) monk levels with the weapons associated with their style.
1) my version allows variation, based upon the structure that Pathfinder is setting up with the Rogue.
2) My Monk definitely brings more Wuxia style int the monk.
3) I couldn't agree more.
2a) I would rather make a weapon-oriented monk training options, like I did with Spear/Staff training and Kau-sin-ke training, allowing the monk to gain additional options with their chosen weapons. I would put in A Pole-arm training option to emulate the traditional use of monk's spades and other kung fu weapons.
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In the interest of backwards compatibility and not deviating too far from what was published in Alpha 3, I've devised my own little take on the monk class . . . please don't tear me to shreds.
Mad props to Xaaon of Xen'drik for the +1 enhancement/4 levels concept. I think it's an elegant, balanced solution to a very prominent monk problem. I don't know if it causes issues as far as the monk not needing to buy magic weapons the way other classes do, but then, I suppose that was always kind of their shtick anyway.
I've been fooling around with this personal version with my own level 9 monk, and so far, it's been going pretty well.
Suggested Monk Progression - Everything is the same as it is in ALPHA 3 unless otherwise noted.
1 Bonus feat, flurry of blows*, unarmed strike (masterwork)*, AC bonus, unarmored speed
2 Bonus Feat, evasion
3 Maneuver training, still mind
4 Ki pool* (magic), slow fall 20 ft., unarmed strike (+1 enhancement)*
5 High jump, purity of body
6 Bonus feat, slow fall 30 ft.
7 Wholeness of body
8 Slow fall 40 ft., unarmed strike (+2 enhancement)
9 Improved evasion
10 Bonus feat, Ki pool (lawful), slow fall 50 ft.
11 Diamond Body
12 Abundant step*, slow fall 60 ft., unarmed strike (+3 enhancement)
13 Diamond soul (SR=11+monk level)
14 Bonus feat, slow fall 70 ft.
15 Quivering palm
16 Ki pool (adamantine), unarmed strike (+4 enhancement), slow fall 80 ft.
17 Timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon
18 Bonus feat, slow fall 90 ft.
19 Empty body
20 Perfect self, feather fall*, unarmed strike (+5 enhancement)* Class features that have been changed from that found in the Pathfinder Alpha 3 release
Flurry of Blows: Upon reaching 13th level, the monk may spend 3 ki points to use her flurry of blows as a standard action.
(So that it can be used in combination with the monk's highly-stressed mobility)
Unarmed Strike (masterwork): (In addition to the printed rules regarding the monk unarmed...
I would play this over the Pathfinder version and the Pathfinder version over the 3.5 version. Though I prefer mine since it allows more variation in the abilities.
Several options:
One nice simple and easy is to Gestalt it with the Adept class for some minor Wisdom based spellcasting.
A second option is to apply the Variant Psychic Rogue psionics based on Wisdom mechanic 100 PP and 15 first to fifth level psionic powers known at L20 sort of an unarmored variant of the Psychic Warrior the Psychic Monk (Martial Artist).
At 5, 10, 15 and 20 give it the equivalent of a level in the Martial Adept Swordsage class.
At L6 change BAB to Full BAB like a Fighter for those 15 levels.
At L7, L10, L13, L16 and L19 give it the benefits equivalent to a PRC Tattooed Monk Tattoo.
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Oh and Mikael, as far as monk's not having to buy magic weapons, that's a good thing, remember how many stats monks rely on, and how much all those "boost" items cost...not having to buy weapons opens up a monks ability to boost their other stats for the good of the party.
The enhancement bonus follows directly the AC bonus, so it's not a huge pain to convert.
The main reason you would use a monk weapon now would be to have a weapon that provides other bonuses.