I think Monte (you know, that consultant guy ;) ) came up with some kind of hand wrappings for monks in his game that allowed them to enhance their unarmed strikes as you mentioned.
By the by...I think that the maneuver training thing is just so freaking awesome. I can't hardly stand it. It really makes the monk the best at what he does.
Director of Game Design
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Something i have long wondered/considered, but not actually playtested:
What about allowing the monk to use his 'unarmed strike' damage when using 'special monk weapons'?
It would eliminate the amulet of mighty fists supercost requirement by allowing the monk access to the same priced melee combat boosters as all other classes, plus also get rid of the 'need' to do things like..multiclass to kensai so i can enchant my fist...etc. I think it would allow the monks to get more into the damage dealing level that rogues have because it would allow the stacking of holy, flaming, etc.
Just a thought
Simple and easy to implement. I like it. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I kind of like the mageslayer monk idea. I've long set them up in my games as demonslayers-- similar to wizards, and good antagonistic flavor.
Mechanically, though, the Monk's abilities don't go far enough. While most of their abilities are much better than human standard, almost all of them can be overruled by magic. What needs to happen is that we need to compare monk abilities to spells, in two critical ways:
First, Monk Abilities need to be as good as comparable spells. One of my big beefs with the Monk is that many of his class features are worse than, and do not stack with, spell effects.
Monk Speed: Monks are fast, right? right? Not really. A Monk is not even *as fast* as a full plate dwarf with boots of striding until level 6, about when the dwarf could pick them up if so inclined. More distubringly, if the party sorcerer hastest everybody, they all become as fast as level 8 monks, and the monk doesn't get any faster.
Slow Fall: This is totally cool and flavorful, yet for an ability with a dozen levels of progression still manages to be worse than Feather Fall.
That Jump Ability: Good, but remember that D&D characters event4a3ly learn to *fly*.
I've played with a lot of monks in my time, and I noticed a curious dynamic: monks rarely sought out spells or items that overlapped with their class features, making them often worse than other PCs at thier ostensible strengths. A Full Plate Dwarf with winged boots has more vertical mobility than a Monk.
Second, compare to the enemies. A Monk needs a set of abilities that lets him actually fight the things he's edisgned to fight. I would recommend starting with the monster manual, picking a set of monsters, then designing features to beat them.
If they're designed to fight casters and magical monsters, then the following come up:
Invisibility: Lots of casters and demons go invisible. The monk is supposed to be preternaturally aware, so they should get See Invisibility at some point in their progression.
Flight: Anything magic might fly. Monks currently are the least likely characters to fly, since they already have other movement powers. There are three ways to deal with this. My favorite would be to just give monks a fly s*eed, but I can already hear the screams from the realism lobby. The alternatives are to give Monks a useful ki missile ability or Pounce, so they can jump up and pummel somebody.
Teleportation/Walls: Many casters do these. Eventually Monks can Dim Door, but more than once per day might be nice.
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Less Critical:
Incorporeality: I personally like the idea of ghost-hunting monks, and it's a niche they could have without needing huge numbers. They already have good touch ACs, make their hands Ghost Touch and you're good.
DR: Many demons, etc, have DR and many casters can get it. Monks already beat stoneskin, but you might consider giving them access to Ki Strike Good or Ki Strike Silver. (incidentally, while flavorful,Ki Strike Lawful is incredibly unhelpful. I looked through the entire monster manual, and AFAIK it only helps against Gray Slaad)
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If, on ther other hand, you want Monks to continue in their role as debuffers, things look a little different. A Rogue can jump out from the shadows and *kill* things*, so a Monk needs to jump out and reliably disable one or more opponents.
Combat Maneuvers are nice, but at high levels become insufficient. You can't effectively trip giants (huge) Dragons (legs) Demons (flight) or Casters (flight, teleportation, prone casting). High-end monsters have very large grapple numbers, and few high-level threats need weapons to kill you.
Stunning Fist works okay against actual wizards, but not against undead, golems, or huge guys.
I haven't exhaustively studied the options availble to a pathfinder Monk, but someone needs to sit down and make sure that at every level 1-20 Monks have debuffs that their enemies are not immune to and will stop their enemies from killing them.
So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a rediculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingIts not a bad thing to do.
I'd still like to see some Ki based attacks that disable opponents in various ways as Monk class features. I think it would both add to the flavor and the viability of the Monk class - neither of which are a bad thing.
I also think that squirril's ideas along the line of the debuffing effects is a nice one. Even if its just inflicted penalties instead of complete loss of the foe's abilities to do actions.
ex...eye gouge...affected target's attacks are resolved as if the targets benefited from concealment. (20% miss chance) possibly improved version that inflicted temporary blindness? (50%) can use stunning fist based fort saves/etc for game balance. Make it last 2 rounds, 5 rounds, or even a whole minute. (enough to make an impact in an encounter without being permanent.)
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Gauntlets are weapons (pg 116 PH), a cestus was a leather gauntlet with spikes. Therefore since gauntlets are weapons, they can be enchanted. This allows monks to have enchanted weapons quite easily. Of course a staff can be enchanted also, with 2 different ends.
I feel more weapons need to be added to the monk weapons list. Monks used swords...lot's of different kinds of swords. Monks use spears!!
A Rattan spear should have bonuses to disarm, trip and go around shields. Want to see what one can do? Check out some kung fu movies... ;)
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Something i have long wondered/considered, but not actually playtested:
What about allowing the monk to use his 'unarmed strike' damage when using 'special monk weapons'?
It would eliminate the amulet of mighty fists supercost requirement by allowing the monk access to the same priced melee combat boosters as all other classes, plus also get rid of the 'need' to do things like..multiclass to kensai so i can enchant my fist...etc. I think it would allow the monks to get more into the damage dealing level that rogues have because it would allow the stacking of holy, flaming, etc.
Just a thought
Simple and easy to implement. I like it. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
[gripe]Hey, how come when Rathendar suggests it, it gets props but when I suggested it above it got ignored?! [/gripe] ;-)
I think it’s a good idea. Balance issues may dictate that the damage die is dropped by one (say starting at +d3 or +d4) to compensate for being able to add it to the weapon dice and factoring in other things such as weapon enhancement bonus.
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Director of Game Design
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[gripe]Hey, how come when Rathendar suggests it, it gets props but when I suggested it above it got ignored?! [/gripe] ;-)
I think it’s a good idea. Balance issues may dictate that the damage die is dropped by one (say starting at +d3 or +d4) to compensate for being able to add it to the weapon dice and factoring in other things such as weapon enhancement bonus.
Because I like Rathendar more... :-P
Sorry, I must have missed that from earlier. I am not 100% sold on the idea just yet, but I have some ideas brewing. I am going to let them ferment a bit before posting them though.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Game Design
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Gauntlets are weapons (pg 116 PH), a cestus was a leather gauntlet with spikes. Therefore since gauntlets are weapons, they can be enchanted. This allows monks to have enchanted weapons quite easily. Of course a staff can be enchanted also, with 2 different ends.
I feel more weapons need to be added to the monk weapons list. Monks used swords...lot's of different kinds of swords. Monks use spears!!
A Rattan spear should have bonuses to disarm, trip and go around shields. Want to see what one can do? Check out some kung fu movies... ;)
All of these things are true. And trust me, I do not need any encouragment to watch more Kung Fu movies. Hmmm...
I might need to watch "Eight Diagram Pole Fighter" again sometime soon. Ahh the memories.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Something i have long wondered/considered, but not actually playtested:
What about allowing the monk to use his 'unarmed strike' damage when using 'special monk weapons'?
It would eliminate the amulet of mighty fists supercost requirement by allowing the monk access to the same priced melee combat boosters as all other classes, plus also get rid of the 'need' to do things like..multiclass to kensai so i can enchant my fist...etc. I think it would allow the monks to get more into the damage dealing level that rogues have because it would allow the stacking of holy, flaming, etc.
Just a thought
Simple and easy to implement. I like it. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing[gripe]Hey, how come when Rathendar suggests it, it gets props but when I suggested it above it got ignored?! [/gripe] ;-)
I think it’s a good idea. Balance issues may dictate that the damage die is dropped by one (say starting at +d3 or +d4) to compensate for being able to add it to the weapon dice and factoring in other things such as weapon enhancement bonus.
Because mothman is on ignore by most of the posters?..just kidding!!
I've heard the idea a few times in threads spread out on different boards, along with tons of other things monkish idea-wise. That one always struck me as something that wasn't really a bad one to seriously consider. Makes monks weapons desirable to actually have/use, but doesn't make them helpless without them.
Plus the monk weapons are full of flavor/fluff for visual style.
Plus-plus(!) theres tons of weapons in the wuxia stuff. Even classic black belt theater. Master of the flying guillotine anyone? lol.
Seriously though mothman, i wasn't trying to say i was the only one who'd thought that. Sometimes ideas get lost in the middle of other threads and simply need to be thrown up in a few places to finally catch an eye.
*tips hat*
So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
You've probably already thought of this, but couldn't each of those effects be done with a Ki Pool ability? You already have magic, lawful and adamantine: elemental and to-hit bonuses would seem to be the next logical step to me. After all, the Monks and Martial Artists of fiction and fantasy are meant to be reliant on the self rather than possessions (the complete opposite of Fighters, really).
But then, fiction does some very strange things with Martial Artists. Hadouken, anyone?
EDIT: Damn I type slow :(
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Rattan Monk's Spear (exotic/monk)
1d6/1d8 Piercing 20/x3 +4 bonus to trip/disarm (no set for charge)
Monk training: Spear Thrust
Allows the monk to use a spear as a 10' reach weapon.
Monk training: Around the shield
A Monk may use the flexibility of a Rattan spear to ignore a shield by going around the shield.
One of my favorite Eberron books is Secrets of Sarlona as it has LOTS of monk weapons, including hook swords and the monk's spade.
Something i have long wondered/considered, but not actually playtested:
What about allowing the monk to use his 'unarmed strike' damage when using 'special monk weapons'?
It would eliminate the amulet of mighty fists supercost requirement by allowing the monk access to the same priced melee combat boosters as all other classes, plus also get rid of the 'need' to do things like..multiclass to kensai so i can enchant my fist...etc. I think it would allow the monks to get more into the damage dealing level that rogues have because it would allow the stacking of holy, flaming, etc.
Just a thought
Simple and easy to implement. I like it. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingI don't mind that, but I would still prefer something along hand wrappings/gloves for a monk for that classic bare knuckles fighting feel. A gantlet is in the same area of the body, but can be enchanted as a weapon, is I see no problem in letting the monk use gloves or hand wrappings.
Of course this is just flavor, and I can always change it if I don't like it :p
Edit: Someone already beat me to the punch.
I don't see why allowing gloves/handwraps to be enchanted as weapons would hurt anything personally. they'd simply take the place for magic gloves on the body slots. The cost is its own balance. I might say that they couldn't have as much of a bonus as a weapon, for example +5 instead of +10 (which would be the same as the amulet of mighty fists in range for consistency)
Personally i hate the amulet. it may be explotable by multilimbed creatures, but its really not THAT game breaking to justify that pricetag.
Hell just reword the amulet to say it functions with unarmed strikes (normal or improved) instead of natural weapons and you justify the cost reduction immediately.
Hey there all,
So, I am thinking a lot about the monk as of late. The monk, as I stated before, fills a different role than a fighter. They hit more like a rogue, with a different sort of damage potential. For some reason, and I am wondering why, there seems to be an opinion that the monk does not work, but the rogue, who is based off the same progression, does. The monk has access to some of the same bonuses as a rogue (to hit at any rate), but the monk has quite a bit more defenses (good saves, some immunities, and, in the right build, a better AC).
So where's the monk's equivalent to sneak attack?
So where's the monk's equivalent to sneak attack?
It's called "flurry of blows" and an escalating damage die.
See the problem with the idea of gloves, hand wrappings, and the like, is that remember an unarmed strike is with any part of the body... Seriously, a monk could theoretically lick you really hard and do that 2d10 damage, that's the game, rules as written. I'm sure that... (man that sounds like a great idea) no one would ever do that, but it works. Also, I like those debuff ideas, I'd like them to make it. For a guy who basically dedicated his life to fighting, he's amazingly sub-par (in a standard campaign).
So where's the monk's equivalent to sneak attack?It's called "flurry of blows" and an escalating damage die.Whereas Rogues go TWF and get more attacks which deal more damage per hit and can get dex to hit (*and* go potion thrower for *ranged touch attacks*).
Flurry of Blows << SA
Seriously, Monks need a good array of disabling attacks. And by good I mean comparable to wizard spells available at their level in terms of the amount of disabling. Because they aren't damage machines, and debuffing is the only way they could possibly justify their existence otherwise.
If the monk will be doing damage and inflicting a disabling/debuff effect then i think they should not be up on par with the wizards spells/effects, as the wizard's disables don't have a damage component included typically.
I am however in agreement that it is a nice idea/concept and am curious to see what types of things can be worked up as ideas/thinktank after a week or so when the alpha 3 has had some time to percolate and settle in the minds of the large numbers of creative people i have seen frequenting these boards.I'll try my own hand at it, if mothman doesn't beat me to the ideas i come up with first ;)
I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from squirrel, but i have to disagree with you about the need for change of that magnitude. The monk has not ever to me seemed to be a room effecting power user, and is more of a 'just one guy' power user.
I'll take some time to think on things, and try to post a reply with more actual ideas and suggestions/feedback on them after i sleep, so that i'm not just here saying 'no i disagree'.
I feel everyone's ideas deserve more then that as a reply. Theres a good deal of perspective to be gained from the stuff i have seen from you, but i do feel that you tend to be near the extreme end of the rewrites on things.
(not that that is bad, sometimes its just what's needed afterall.)
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Well, this may be a little off topic, but here goes.
My problem with the Monk (In almost all RPGs that they occur in, primarily, old school D&D, Rolemaster, D20 versions)is that they don't really have any Martial Arts flavor. No proper MA Styles, or maneuvers.
Couldn't Paizo implement something similar to a Sorcerer's Boodline ?
Each Monk is allowed to choose a School that they learned from, with bonus to certain attack types, as well as to skills, etc...
Just a thought.
-Uriel
PS: Hero Systems actually had a pretty cool system for Martial Arts packages, but that seems to be a rarity in RPGs.
So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hello there,
i think one of the key issues of the Monk is that they have to invest into many attributes (wis,dex,str) to be effective.
I think the best solution is to give the monk their wisdombonus to damage and BAB.So he will get a boost for it without changing the BAB into good.Like Weaponfinesse but wis instead of dex.Damage included of course.
Or just simply change the Ki Strike as it was in 3.0 Edition where his umarmed strike were treaded at Level 4 as Magic and +1 weapons,+2 lawful at 10 and at 16 adamantite +3 weapons.
You also give the monk a fiery fist like the feat in the PHB II.But the idea as a magic item is also great Jason.Like amulets of the mighty fist.+1 one for let´s say 4000 GP,+2 for 8000,+3 for 16000 and so on. Wotc had no concerns of creating the wonderusitem like that. I think the starting cost of 24.000 GP was way too expensive for the Monk.And if you are concerned about some people using this for another purpose just change the rules for the item to only for unarmed strike.
As for monk weapons the mighty sword & dagger was always a good weapon monks giving them a +2 to trip and disarm.
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Simple and easy to implement. I like it. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Simpler answer: enchanted gauntlets. Gauntlets count as unarmed strikes. You therefore do your normal unarmed damage with them and are as proficient with them as you are with your normal unarmed strike. They are manufactured weapons, so you can enchant them. Is there something I'm missing here?
As far as "theme" goes, gauntlets can easily represent brass knuckles, pugilist gloves, or just big steel gauntlets that your monk uses to wallop the crap out of people with. I personally like it because it gives the class a sort of Final Fantasy feel (the good ones, not the suck ones) where your monk can wear "gloves" or "claws" of various sorts.
Honestly, I like one of the suggestions from earlier in this thread to toss "special monk weapons" entirely. They're mostly just Asian versions of European weapons, and they make even less sense to show up in a Western fantasy setting than monks (who at least have precedent with non-Asian unarmed martial arts like savate, pankration, and capoeira). Just replace them with something on the order of "a monk can use his special combat abilities with simple weapons" to reflect the fact that unarmed martial arts were developed by people without access to real weapons, not people highly proficient in weird exotic weapons. (I would, however, like to see a feat that lets a monk use his class abilities with a single martial or exotic weapon of his choice, so that you can get the martial artist with a longsword, a la Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.)
I would also like to chime in that I generally like the direction of the new monk. I just want to see some of the silly legacy stuff cut out of it so that it fits in with the other classes a little better. I don't want to see its weird supernatural powers go away, since I like the idea that "martial arts makes you in tune with the world." It's very classic, and works well with the fantasy assumptions of the other classes, I think.
In short, keep up the good work, Jason, and keep letting cooler heads prevail. XD
Jeremy Puckett
Simple and easy to implement. I like it. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingSimpler answer: enchanted gauntlets. Gauntlets count as unarmed strikes. You therefore do your normal unarmed damage with them and are as proficient with them as you are with your normal unarmed strike. They are manufactured weapons, so you can enchant them. Is there something I'm missing here?
As far as "theme" goes, gauntlets can easily represent brass knuckles, pugilist gloves, or just big steel gauntlets that your monk uses to wallop the crap out of people with. I personally like it because it gives the class a sort of Final Fantasy feel (the good ones, not the suck ones) where your monk can wear "gloves" or "claws" of various sorts.
Honestly, I like one of the suggestions from earlier in this thread to toss "special monk weapons" entirely. They're mostly just Asian versions of European weapons, and they make even less sense to show up in a Western fantasy setting than monks (who at least have precedent with non-Asian unarmed martial arts like savate, pankration, and capoeira). Just replace them with something on the order of "a monk can use his special combat abilities with simple weapons" to reflect the fact that unarmed martial arts were developed by people without access to real weapons, not people highly proficient in weird exotic weapons. (I would, however, like to see a feat that lets a monk use his class abilities with a single martial or exotic weapon of his choice, so that you can get the martial artist with a longsword, a la Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.)
I would also like to chime in that I generally like the direction of the new monk. I just want to see some of the silly legacy stuff cut out of it so that it fits in with the other classes a little better. I don't want to see its weird supernatural powers go away, since I like the idea that "martial arts makes you in tune with the world." It's very classic, and works well with the...
The only thing i would like to point out here (before i go to bed, i swear) is that Pathfinder is NOT a solely western style fantasy setting. They've gone to some pretty extensive lengths to include all kinds of regional places and differences so its not just 'european sword and sorcery' for the setting overall.
I agree with Jason and several other posters in their conception and views of the monk class, and I think that's the fun things about playing a monk...
At my first couple of readings, I found the Pathfinder monk looks great, and I really like the options and versatility given by the ki pool. Now we'll have to playtest it and see it in action!
New to the boards, but I am highly interested in the Pathfinder RPG. I hope to play it at least at GenconUK, and if anybody here is from Scotland? That's just as a side-note.
I really like the monk and what's been done to it, just a suggestion for the bonus feat for monks to add Vital Strike at 10th or 14th level to the list and improved Vital Strike at 14th or 18th level. Gives a nice extra option to the class.
I really like the monk and what's been done to it, just a suggestion for the bonus feat for monks to add Vital Strike at 10th or 14th level to the list and improved Vital Strike at 14th or 18th level. Gives a nice extra option to the class.
Well, there's nothing that stop monks of selecting those feats when they meet the prerequisites, and indeed they are excellent for upgrading those flurry of blows that so many times are (imho) misjudged as "miss more often".
Sure, only problems is that they must multi-class to get Improved Vital Strike (pre-requisite BAB +16, as of now). As it is a great feat for a monk, my suggestion to put it in the bonus feat section - as they don't need to meet the pre-requisites.
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MY initial thoughts on the monk is that its a nice improvement to 3.5 version but still needs a little tweaking in certain aspects...
First the unarmed damage with monk weapons I have been house ruling for years and it makes perfect sense. What is needed is a few more versatile monk weapons to fill out their options, they lack a reach weapon, reach tripping weapon, a two handed weapon (for extra str damage) and a shielding weapon.
heres my suggestions...
add longsword, shortsword, katana, bastard sword, spear and longspear to monk weapons choices (but not as special monk weapons),
New special monk weapons
Jo Staff (1d6, provides 10 ft reach, two handed bludgeoning weapon)
Kusari-gama (1d6, provides 10 and 15 ft reach can be used to make trip attacks, also functions as a kama)
Naginata (1d10, two handed slashing weapon)
Tonfa (1d6 bludgeoning weapon, provides a +1 shield bonus to AC, cannot be enchanted as a shield)
Secondly there are three abilities that concern me most on the monks list.
The first is the Ki pool. being limited to half monk level + wisdom seems too restrictive and a simple fix would be to make it equal monk level + wisdom. Though I haven't play-tested it yet it does bring the ability more in line with the other classes such as lay on hands and rage points.
The second is quivering palm. compared against the rangers master hunter this ability is too limited. The save DCs are the same the result is the same (although the monks can be delayed) but a monk gets to use it once per week compared to a ranger who can use it 5 times per day! The monk may get it at 15th but at a reduced save DC which is balancing enough to move the quivering palm ability to 1/day at least.
The last one is Perfect self, as a class defining end-game ability it really lacks punch. its 10 DR but easily overcome by 90% of the opponents you would expect a 20th level monk to be fighting. what it needs im not entirely sure but my mind leans towards more definitive immunities, perhaps immunity to critical hits, does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity while moving, cannot be flanked or the like.
The whole business of enchanting gauntlets doesn't work, cause you're using a manufactured weapon, so you're using the weapon's damage, not your unarmed strike. I'd really like the weapons of the monk to be expanded, cause I do think it's silly that they get rather odd weapon choices. The other thing I think should be done is to keep that half levels + wis mod for Ki points, but make them refresh every encounter. The monk's Healing is trivial in later level anyway, and either way it's a less of a burden for the cleric and the party as whole.
i think one of the key issues of the Monk is that they have to invest into many attributes (wis,dex,str) to be effective.
I think the best solution is to give the monk their wisdombonus to damage and BAB.So he will get a boost for it without changing the BAB into good.Like Weaponfinesse but wis instead of dex.Damage included of course.
I was thinking of this earlier. This could eliminate the need for a high strength score, allowing the monk to concentrate on only on dexterity and wisdom.
Although thats still two abilities scores a monk player needs to worry about, it would make the class a lot more playable at higher levels.
Like the paladin and the bard, I think the monk is going in the right direction. It will just take a little more time and effort to get him there.
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Damage output doesn't need to change at all because the Monk doesn't get access to all the elemental damage adds that every single other class has available (i.e. flaming, shocking, freezing etc.) thanks to magic items.
Why not?
Gauntlets, cesti, gloves and fist-bindings can all be enchanted to provide elemental or alignment effects, and I'd still count them all as 'unarmed attacks'.
EDIT; beaten to the post by a billion other folk. Oh, well...
First of all - BRAVO! The changes to the Monk were delightful and phenomenally well handled. Backwards compatibility was very well-maintained, while making the whole monk experience much more versatile. I'm playing one right now and didn't need a single change - though I had new choices (just 1st level). Much more to look forward to.
Only thing:
Now...
I'm sorry Jason but you're just being obtuse.
Obtuse.. hmm.
Changing the BAB to a full progression affects two things; Flurry of Blows and Damage Output. Flurry of Blows is an easy fix, put it back to an extra attack with all attacks at -2. Works just like the Rapid Shot feat chain.
Full BAB with the -2, vs Monk BAB with the scaling down flurry, is only *one* better to hit from 1st through 12th levels. It's rather.. obtuse, to be arguing over such a small difference.
If you are actually referring to after 12th level, then your other arguments about AC break down. It's been my experience that the Monk ends up with the *Highest* (bar none) AC. A fully armored, shield, and spelled up Cleric can come to about the same, but at the higher levels Monks dominate from the easily available stat boosts to Dex and Wisdom, Bracers of Defense which are actually a rather cheap source of AC, and the proliferation of other AC items.
DR x/magic is actually very hard for team monster to overcome, as only monsters that also have DR /magic can do so. Now, if you're running into classed characters all the time, then yes, they'll penetrate DR /magic like no tomorrow. So its situationally useful to be sure, depending on the nature of the campaign.
Agreed - the epic monk in my game had this come into effect a surprising amount of the time.
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Seriously, a monk could theoretically lick you really hard and do that 2d10 damage, that's the game, rules as written. I'm sure that... (man that sounds like a great idea) no one would ever do that, but it works.
Have you ever been licked by a cow?
One nearly took my sleeve off, once.
Great imagery for a minotaur monk...
OK, while fixing inconsistencies in magical item prices is nice, it doesn't fix the monk in any way.
It still needs a role beyond 'run around, try to look cool and not really accomplish anything'.
Most of the class features are just a way of saving a bit of money on minor magic items that do the same thing (when they aren't completely marginal like the healing and minor bonus against enchantment effects), and it *still* struggles with the fact that several of its class features are in direct opposition to each other.
Even if you like spamming a large number random, largely ineffective attacks, you can't combine them with the fast movement or dim-door movement. Lots of attacks are the hallmark of a ranged attacker or a dedicated melee combatant that can take just as much damage as it dishes out. The monk is neither. And there isn't much that can be done about that, other than change the monk. The immobility of the full attacker is worked deep into the system- better to change the class than alter the fundamentals of combat.
And the ki pool is much like the barbarians rage pool. An afterthought that creates more problems than it solves. In this case, its so laughably small that it doesn't really matter. Getting an AC bump or extra attack once or twice an encounter doesn't make the class any better. Tying it into a couple of class features actually restricts the class *more*, because you're using the same resource for completely unrelated abilities. Then, of course, its also confusing, because other abilities aren't tied into the ki pool at all, and there doesn't appear to be an identifiable reason for a decision either way.
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So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Perhaps Monks could be broken up into schools that have thematic grouping that allowed them to have weapon enchantments that applied to thier unarmed strike. After so many levels they whould choose a fighting school that gave them a power over the elements.
"Flaming Snake" might start out as a at say 3rd or 5th level and give them a flaming burst unarmed attack that could be activated by expending a Ki point or a swift action.
At higher levels more enhancements might be had.
The thing about monks that is a secondary problem is that they all start to look a like after a while. but fiction likes to make them look like there are alot of differant types. You made Sorcerers look good buy giving them variety, I think that the same can be said of Monks too.
Something i have long wondered/considered, but not actually playtested:
What about allowing the monk to use his 'unarmed strike' damage when using 'special monk weapons'?
It would eliminate the amulet of mighty fists supercost requirement by allowing the monk access to the same priced melee combat boosters as all other classes, plus also get rid of the 'need' to do things like..multiclass to kensai so i can enchant my fist...etc. I think it would allow the monks to get more into the damage dealing level that rogues have because it would allow the stacking of holy, flaming, etc.
Just a thought
Simple and easy to implement. I like it. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think that handwraps also suit the monk in flavor pretty well...or hands and feet (I've often taped up my ankles when I know I'm gonna be cracking alot of shins at practice). I enjoy the idea of my monk wearing weathered handwraps saturated with glowing runes.
The wraps themselves wouldn't have to do any damage, they could just add enchantment to unarmed attacks. Hell, other players could wear them but in comparison to the monk who gets his full strength bonus and does considerably more unarmed damage per hit, it wouldn't be much of a substitution for a weapon. For the monk it would be huge. In the end I suppose both would do the same thing.
Actually the wraps would be of greater value to the monk given the Ki-powers of the monk at higher levels.
**rampant change of subject**
Also, I really dig the maneuver training. It puts the monk close to on-par with the fighter in theory, but in reality since the fighter doesn't have the same kind of MAD the monk has and will still out-do the monk in this regard.
How would you feel about adding +1/3-4 levels onto that ability description? A monk that spreads his ability scores would end up with CMB skills on-par with the fighter. A monk that focuses his character in that direction would have a unique advantage, giving that specific monk his own skill set to shine in over all others.
If the progression starts at level 6 or so, this would give the monk a boost where he needs it most...at higher level.
Those tricks wouldn't make him front-line combat ready like the fighter and he wouldn't compete with the DPS of the rogue, but would give him something unique that neither the fighter or the rogue could do with the same sort of efficiency.
Don't know if this has been suggested already and I apologize in advance if it has.
The majority agree that one of the monks strengths is that of mobility and battlefield maneuverability.
Why not build on that and allow the Monk to retain their Dex modifier to AC while running or charging? Yes, it’s a similar ability provided by the Run feat, but in my experience no one ever blows a feat on that.
At the very least it could be a ki power, but if you go that route I'd suggest that it grants some other boon as well. Ignoring difficult terrain or obstacles in addition to retaining Dex mod to AC for 1 round comes to mind (i.e Jackie Chan).
He has got the option already via the Mobility feat - which is a great feat now IMHO, at least for moving through threatened squares. In regards to running or charging, he only suffers during a charge, but for that he still could take the -2 for a +2 to hit.
Monks need to be competitive with their unarmed attacks. One of the big "roles" of a monk is that they are living weapons, they are almost always combat ready. Something NO other class can say.
Why not use the existing Ki pool to solve the enhancement issue. Maybe they spend 1 point and gain an enhancement bonus equal to their AC bonus. It scales, can be used over and over, and the monk can still use it even when locked naked in a dungeon.
Maybe they can spend X Ki points to create + equivalent weapons out of a small pool of abilities. Example, a 20th level monk can spend 5 Ki points to create a +1 flaming burst yadda yadda yadda weapon. If further limits are required (this is just off my head, math oriented people out there can tell me if this is unbalanced) the monk has to decide on the abilities when they do their Ki point restore meditation.
Oooooorrrrrrrrrr... you could introduce the Amulet of Lightning Strikes! My entry into the Superstar contest (just a slight plug) ;)