And how do you address the fact that making it a skill based on any single caster's primary casting attribute doesn't favor that one class over all others?
I mean if it were Wisdom it would be good for the Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Cleric. If you make it Charisma it is good for the Bard and Sorcerer (and the Cleric and Paladin don't mind too much, since they like it for turning). But you make it Intelligence and the only one who likes that is the Wizard.
Concentration favored characters with a constitution bonus (which, by the way, didn't make any sense to me either). It doesn't bother me that much that its an intelligence based check, but the biggest problem we seem to have here is, do you want everything to be based on a common principal, or outcome based?
In other words, if you want every spellcaster to have a concentration skill that favors them, you will have a skill that, unlike every other skill in the game, uses a caster's casting ability score for its base. But that also favors classes that have skill points to spend, which means, to make it "fair," you have to have some level dependent ability, not a skill, that lets a spellcaster concentrate, so that every spellcaster has an even chance to concentrate based on their level and ability score.
You certainly can design a game this way, and it may work well, but this seems to run counter to how 3.5 currently works. In fact, "outcome based" seems to be more along the lines of 4e design principals, and that's fine, but it is a different paradigm from how 3.5 generally handles things like this.
Actually here is the Rub, I do NOT advocate keeping the Concentration skill.
OK, pick up your jaws and listen...
I do say we need a way to handle all the possible situations which may occur in it's abscence. for simple scenarios like distracted climbing and Diplomacy a increased DC on the skill check works fantasticlly.
(did anyone here think I argued against that?)
For everything else, including spellcasting the ideal solution to me is NOT a skill check! situations not based on skills should not be resolved by a skill check.
Your example is perfect, you don't go right back into what you were doing because you now have 10 ranks in Collate, but because you have the time and experiance in what you do.
that is why in the early part of the thread I suggested a compromise solution using a Will save... the higher the Character Level the easier thay will be able to ignore distractions. Granted this approach favors some classes over others, but those classes are traditionally the more methodical ones... it kinda makes sense.
Do I expect Paizo to use this idea? Not really, but they are welcome to... I just want a system that works.
That is why in the early part of the thread I suggested a compromise solution using a Will save... the higher the Character Level the easier thay will be able to ignore distractions. Granted this approach favors some classes over others, but those classes are traditionally the more methodical ones... it kinda makes sense.
Fleshing it out a bit more: <paraphrased from the d20 RSRD>
"You must make a Will save to prevent being distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability. Using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity or requires your undivided attention does not require a will save to prevent distraction, but imposes a increase to the DC of the skill check. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity or require your undivided attention, you need not make a Will save to avoid being distracted.
If the Will save succeeds, you may continue with the action as normal. If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the spell is lost. If you were concentrating on an active spell, the spell ends as if you had ceased concentrating on it. If you were directing a spell, the direction fails but the spell remains active. If you were using a spell-like ability, that use of the ability is lost."
Will Save DC ...... Distraction
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
10 + damage dealt ...... Damaged during the action.
10 + half of continuous damage last dealt ...... Taking continuous damage during the action.
Distracting spell’s save DC ...... Distracted by nondamaging spell.
10 ...... Vigorous motion (on a moving mount, taking a bouncy wagon ride, in a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a stormtossed ship).
15 ...... Violent motion (on a galloping horse, taking a very rough wagon ride, in a small boat in rapids, on the deck of a storm-tossed ship).
20 ...... Extraordinarily violent motion (earthquake).
15 ...... Entangled.
20 ...... Grappling or pinned. (You can cast only spells without somatic components for which you have any required material component in hand.)
5 ...... Weather is a high wind carrying blinding rain or sleet.
10 ...... Weather is wind-driven hail, dust, or debris.
Distracting spell’s save DC ...... Weather caused by a spell, such as storm of vengeance.
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Concentration is not a Spellcasting skill.
it's the ability to stay on track and block out distractions.Spellcraft is a Knowledge type skill.
it allows you to Identify active effects and spells being cast.the only reason there is as much rule text in the Concentration skill dealing with magic is because there is a need to define what "magic" can do more so then any other ability that requires attention.
Even without Psionics the skill is used for other situations.
I concur. My recommendation has been to roll Spellcraft into Knowledge (arcana) and keep Concentration separate. (Same would go for Psicraft and Knowledge (psionics).
Of course, I also recommend rolling Use Magic Device into Knowledge (arcana) and Use Psionic Device into Knowledge (psionics).
I think I'm with the OP on this. Rolling Concentration into Spellcraft gives wizards an unfair edge.
Also, in regards to backwards compatibility, I think the Alphas have gone a little too far in regards to combining skills together.
I like Perception a lot. I like Stealth, too. And Athletics. But draw the line and don't get rid of skills that make sense on their own (i.e; Concentration).
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You know it just occured to me that there is no need for concentration at all in the 3.5/pathfinder system (not counting the splat books)...
Concentration is already built into the games skill mechanics, its called taking 10
When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
Then all that needs doing is rolling the following quote into the take 10 rule...
You must make a caster level check, skill check or ability check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a check to avoid being distracted. If you are distracted during an action you already started (even if you took a 10 or 20 on that skill check) you must make a new check with a modified DC from the table below.
If the check succeeds, you may continue with the action as normal. If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the spell is lost. If you were concentrating on an active spell, the spell ends as if you had ceased concentrating on it. If you were directing a spell, the direction fails but the spell remains active. If you were using a spell-like ability, that use of the ability is lost. A skill use also fails, and in some cases a failed skill check may have other ramifications as well.
The table below summarizes various types of distractions that cause you to make a check. If the distraction occurs while you are trying to cast a spell, you must add the level of the spell you are trying to cast to the appropriate DC. If more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one; any failed check indicates that the task is not completed. If you are performing a task that you chose to take 10 (or 20) on you must make an additional skill check against a modified DC for that task as inidicated in brackets on the table.
DC (Modified DC) @ : Distraction
10 + damage dealt (damage dealt) : Damaged during the action.*
10 + half of continuous damage last dealt (half of continuous damage last dealt) : Taking continuous damage during the action.**
Distracting spell’s save DC (half of the distracting spell’s save DC) : Distracted by nondamaging spell.***
10 (+2) : Vigorous motion (on a moving mount, taking a bouncy wagon ride, in a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a stormtossed ship).
15 (+3) : Violent motion (on a galloping horse, taking a very rough wagon ride, in a small boat in rapids, on the deck of a storm-tossed ship).
20 (+5) : Extraordinarily violent motion (earthquake).
15 (+3) : Entangled.
20 (+5) : Grappling or pinned. (You can cast only spells without somatic components for which you have any required material component in hand.)
5 : (+1) Weather is a high wind carrying blinding rain or sleet.
10 : (+2) Weather is wind-driven hail, dust, or debris.
Distracting spell’s save DC (half of the distracting spell’s save DC) : Weather caused by a spell, such as storm of vengeance.***@ If you are trying to cast, concentrate on, or direct a spell when the distraction occurs, add the level of the spell to the indicated DC.
* Such as during the casting of a spell with a casting time of 1 round or more, or the execution of an activity that takes more than a single full-round action (such as Disable Device). Also, damage stemming from an attack of opportunity or readied attack made in response to the spell being cast (for spells with a casting time of 1 standard action) or the action being taken (for activities requiring no more than a full-round action).
** Such as from acid arrow.
*** If the spell allows no save, use the save DC it would have if it did allow a save.
for the splat books...
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I agree with DeadDM, Saurstalk and Guru. The good thing about it previously being a CON-based skill was that this was an ability that was useful for all characters, and thus, showed no favouritism.
I've also spent the last two years playing a wizard in 3.5, and have had no problem with the so-called 'skill-tax' between Spellcraft and Concentration.
I do have a problem with the vaguely-defined wishy-washy overlap between Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana/religion).
Now that is a skill tax.
I would prefer getting rid of Spellcraft altogether, and using Concentration for all concentration rolls (duh!), and Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) for all identifying/crafting/researching rolls, dependent on whether the spell is arcane or divine. Clerics should be better at identifying prayers and miracles, wizards less so.
I wouldn't object to spending on three skills to cover all the bases, since that's what I'm currently having to do in 3.5, but at least this way, it helps the WIS and CHA-based casters, and splits the skills in a more intuitive way.
And since skills have been reworked, we all have more to play with anyway...
I agree with DeadDM, Saurstalk and Guru. The good thing about it previously being a CON-based skill was that this was an ability that was useful for all characters, and thus, showed no favouritism.
I've also spent the last two years playing a wizard in 3.5, and have had no problem with the so-called 'skill-tax' between Spellcraft and Concentration.
I do have a problem with the vaguely-defined wishy-washy overlap between Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana/religion).
Now that is a skill tax.
Likewise on all three counts.
I would prefer getting rid of Spellcraft altogether, and using Concentration for all concentration rolls (duh!), and Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) for all identifying/crafting/researching rolls, dependent on whether the spell is arcane or divine. Clerics should be better at identifying prayers and miracles, wizards less so.
That is definately a better way of dealing with the situation. Rolling Concentration into Spellcraft doesn't make nearly as much sense and Spellcraft into Knowledge (Arcana) (they even run off the same stat!)
Spellcraft is an Int-based skill and the only Core class (leaving aside non-Core I'll address that shortly) that relies on Int is the Wizard. Concentration is Con-based which means among other things that it's usually a fairly high priority for every character class. The numerical disparity between similarly maxed-out casters will therefore be less (more in the range of one or two points). Con is not usually top priority for anyone, meaning that it's probably not much more likely that a Paladin or Ranger will boost their Con than a wizard. This is good and fair, since it means no caster class is discriminatred against stat-wise.
Making it an Int-based check will spike that up quite a lot. Paladins especially will get shafted, since it makes them even more MAD or they have to bear the fact their defensive casting (which arguably they need more than Wizards!) This disparity will shoot up at higher levels, too, with wizards gaining a huge advantage over the more melee-inclined casters (which in core is, like, ALL of the others). Assuming a Paladin with Int as a dump stat (not a great leap) it could be as much as eight or nine points at level 20(8 verses 24-26, assuming a 25-point buy (Int 20 at level 20) and +6-+8 Int bonus items). As opposed to, say, 2-4 points with Concnetration as it stands (I think it equally likely that a Paladin and a Wizard would get a Con-bonus item instead of a Str/Cha or Int bonus one). That's a hell of a gap there.
If I were gong to link 'concentration' to a mental stat, I'd go for Wisdom on the basis that a) it matches up with will saves and b) 4 out of 7 core casters use Wisdom, not pandering to one class out of seven.
...
I to some extent can see Rageheart's point about replacing concentration with Will saves (most caster classes have good Will saves anyway, so it shouldn't penalise them.)
However, as people have said, removing it as a skill altogether causes problems beyond core (psionics, ToB). And to me at least, that's not a minor issue, that's THE issue. I'm not leaping over the moon at 4E because it means I won't be able to use all of the splatbooks and options I can with 3.5. The further Pathfinder moves away from backward compatibility (and it's starting to creep in that direction - only starting, mind) the less it is going to be worth it for those of us who don't want to abandon 3.5 for a new core-only game (be it Pathfinder or 4E).
Wow - what a thread to wake up to! ;)
Psionics feature in nearly all of our games and this was an issue we discussed and playtested for both Alpha 1 and Alpha 2 releases.
We rolled all of the psionic uses of the concentration skill into the Autohypnosis skill. Our group found this both balanced and preserved the psionic flavor of the skill.
Whilst this does mean that Psionicists use 2 skills compared to Magic Users only using one skill (i.e. Spellcraft), we felt this was balanced.
Psions and Wilders usually have plenty of skill points and (at least in our games) usually take Autohypnosis anyway. The Psychic Warrior can drop Spell/Psi-craft if they want to free up their skill points, as they can subsist on Autohypnosis a la the Cleric (i.e. buff then bash, no need for concentration).
Given the amount that both skills now do, when playing in a game with psionics unless all characters are psionic, then one skill for everything (i.e. Spell/Psi-craft, Concentration, Psi-Concentration uses, Autohypnosis etc.) is plain too much.
Peace,
tfad
For what it's worth, I agree that, rather than rolling Concentration into Spellcraft, a better solution is rolling Spellcraft into Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion). Possibly Knowledge (Nature) for druid magic. There's very little reason for the two to be separate skills when they often feel like they overlap, and this still reduces the so-called "Skill Tax". It means that casters would need to invest in other knowledges to identify other styles of magic, but that's a very sensible approach anyway, and puts more emphasis on skills, which I never feel is a bad idea.
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Con is not usually top priority for anyone, meaning that it's probably not much more likely that a Paladin or Ranger will boost their Con than a wizard.
Indeed, I find a wizard is more likely to want a good Con, since his actual Hit Die sucks so much. Personally, my bonus hit points outweigh my rolled hit points by 50%.
Anyone watch 'Lazytown'? That guy so totally ripped off my routines. That's how I start the day. All I need is a town full of puppets, an airship, and a strangely camp, cross-dressing villain, and I could have been a star! A star!
Assuming a Paladin with Int as a dump stat (not a great leap)...
No; not a great leap of imagination at all...LOL
It also helps if they or their Favoured Soul cohort put a rank in Spellcraft by level 18/16, as well...:)
You there, Kaile?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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*nods*
Psicraft = Spellcraft for Psionics.
Use Psicraft for Concentration rolls.
This shouldn't be an issue. Last time I checked there was no Taunt skill in the game. Those few abilities that can distract you, put penalties on you, and even then, it was a Will Save, not Concentration you use against them.
Are you talking about the Alpha with this? Because
Playing Music while the ogre hits you
Picking a lock on a ship in a hurricane
Casting a spell while entangles.
Chanting an epic poem while being pelted by an ice storm.
Are all examples of 3.x concentration checks, not penalties, not will saves.
More just throwing ideas in the ring. Those all could be Will saves, with DC's a little more static, or completely static to be easy to remember.Will DC 15 to cast on the defensive. Will DC 20 when damaged, or in a grapple. +4 to will saves when defensive or grappled with Combat Casting. It takes a long time to get +13 saves, much longer to +18. All the classes have good Will saves, even if the Int/Cha casters do miss out a little.
Seeing as how Concentration (or Spellcraft, now) is almost always taken by those who might use it, does the game need the skill point tax?
That is Kinda what I proposed isn't it :D
There just needs to be a definite ruling on how to deal with these situations.
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I understand both sides, let me run some concentration tasks past folks and get their opinions.
Playing Music while the ogre hits you
Modified perform check. Speaking as a performer I can tell you that most performers don't have that great of concentration. Thier ability to stay on task is directly related to their amount of skill pf performing. Many performer I know "lose" themselves in the performance and actually to the opoosite of concentration. Often when I teach improvisation I get people to get beyond concentration to bring things out of the back of their mind in into the open.
Picking a lock on a ship in a hurricane
Once again I'd up the DC on the pick lock.
Casting a spell while entangles.
Spellcraft covers this nicely.
Chanting an epic poem while being pelted by an ice storm.
See the above example with the Ogre. And Having had to perform in "rain or shine" events, let me tell you staying very concentrated will not help you, you have to know how to adjust to what's going on. That is all about performance.
Now how would you determine the modification to the DCs of any of those checks? I personally find concentration fits nicely.
Also, I like the idea of wrapping autohypnosis into concentration. Allows for those funky monky type tricks.
Concentration is (IMHO) a little to spread out if you ask me.
Casting a spell while entangles. Spellcraft covers this nicely.
Why? knowing the best types of components and materials to use in making a Wand of Magic Missle does not logically translate into the ability to focus your mind on the task of casting a spell while distracted.
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Why? knowing the best types of components and materials to use in making a Wand of Magic Missle does not logically translate into the ability to focus your mind on the task of casting a spell while distracted.Casting a spell while entangles. Spellcraft covers this nicely.
You're mixing up Knowledge: Arcana with Spellcraft...
and you're not actually trying to to focus, you are trying to adapt. I do not agree that the examples put forth in this situation shows how an individual is focusing.
Focus is a way of doing things one way. Focus is not the way you would try and work your way out of most problems. Adaptation is a much better way of handling problems.
Being skillful is being able to approach a problem in more than one direction.
If I'm a wizard I should be skillful enought that I can compensate around problems like being grappled, varing light conditions, ect. If wizard acadamies teach wizards how to duel, I'm sure that they teach wizards how to adapt in adverse conditions.
Focus doesn't really play well into a Wizards/Sorcerer theme either. Wizards Are tapping into the comic forces the exist in the world beyond our senses. (My viewpoint anyways). They percieve forces that we can't quite reach and they cast spells the bridge the gap persay and allow magic to form in the game world. Focus doesn't quite get it. Just because you can memorize the words doesn't mean that you can cast the spell. A wizard is more than just his spellbook.
Focus does work well though for Psionics. The idea that you have mystical power, but it's locked away deep in your mind and you are trained to unlock that power, is thematicly popular. Focusing really works. And it rolls together nicely into Psicraft.
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and you're not actually trying to to focus, you are trying to adapt. I do not agree that the examples put forth in this situation shows how an individual is focusing.
<snip>
Focus does work well though for Psionics. The idea that you have mystical power, but it's locked away deep in your mind and you are trained to unlock that power, is thematicly popular. Focusing really works. And it rolls together nicely into Psicraft.
"Oh, my God, there's an axe in my head!"
"Improvise! Adapt!"I don't buy it. If you've been run through by a rapier, you're not "adapting" to anything. You're gritting your teeth. How the skill to help you bite the bullet is INT based makes no sense and means that the Wizard is better at casting in melee than a Cleric. Isn't it one of the points of a Cleric that he can cast spells in melee?
I don't buy your counterpoint. If you continue to focus your going to get another axe to the head.
And If I hit you with a rapier, (And I happen to own one, have been trained with one, not that I'm implying a threat) you better adapt or I'm going to play you like a fiddle. There is no way your going to get away with continue with what your doing.
Just like Mr. Myogi said. "Best block punch, no be there."
As far as what the skill is based off, it could be modified to be the primary casting ability score.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Herald, you and I (and, I fear Jason and I) are going to have to disagree I think.
The first and foremost example of Concentration vs. Spell/Psicraft to me was in the Scarred Lands Dead God Trillogy, when Vladawen Titanslayer was singing the spell to restore That Which Abides, while dueling. He needed to concentrate. He wasn't adapting the spell, and wasn't relying on how well he knew the components. He was focusing on getting them right while being distracted by a nascent god trying to kill him.
Saying "Spellcraft covers it nicely, because it's a replacement for concentration." is a circular arguement. I find having Concentration as a skill as a superior mechanic.
Why is Concentration spread out to you? To me, it's focused (ha hah). The skill to use other skills and abilities by drowning out distractions. I'm all for adding autohypnosis into it for Pathfinder for 3 reasons.
You're mixing up Knowledge: Arcana with Spellcraft...
Well, they do both allow you to identify spells that are being cast... But no, Spellcraft is the skill used in the process of creating magic items.
and you're not actually trying to to focus, you are trying to adapt. I do not agree that the examples put forth in this situation shows how an individual is focusing.
Trying to adapt to the damage I already took? ...how does that work exactly?
Focus is a way of doing things one way. Focus is not the way you would try and work your way out of most problems. Adaptation is a much better way of handling problems.
Yes, but we are talking about how hard it is to cast a spell in a storm, not that the prudent thing to do is to cast from inside a cave.
Being skillful is being able to approach a problem in more than one direction.If I'm a wizard I should be skillful enought that I can compensate around problems like being grappled, varing light conditions, ect. If wizard acadamies teach wizards how to duel, I'm sure that they teach wizards how to adapt in adverse conditions.
Well, Concentrate was a class skill, but that doesn't mean it was a mandatory subject at Hogwarts.
Focus doesn't really play well into a Wizards/Sorcerer theme either. Wizards Are tapping into the comic forces the exist in the world beyond our senses. (My viewpoint anyways). They percieve forces that we can't quite reach and they cast spells the bridge the gap persay and allow magic to form in the game world. Focus doesn't quite get it. Just because you can memorize the words doesn't mean that you can cast the spell. A wizard is more than just his spellbook.
And thus the higher your level, the better you are at ...skillfully adapting to things like a rapier in yer sleen.
Focus does work well though for Psionics. The idea that you have mystical power, but it's locked away deep in your mind and you are trained to unlock that power, is thematicly popular. Focusing really works. And it rolls together nicely into Psicraft.
Not really, Psicraft is the skill used for making Psionic items
I don't buy your counterpoint. If you continue to focus your going to get another axe to the head.And If I hit you with a rapier, (And I happen to own one, have been trained with one, not that I'm implying a threat) you better adapt or I'm going to play you like a fiddle. There is no way your going to get away with continue with what your doing.
Just like Mr. Myogi said. "Best block punch, no be there."....
Yes, a High Armor Class would be preferable to being hit... that wouldn't make you make a check at all! But what we are talking about here is the ruling that you have taken damage.
"Damaged during the action." (DC = 10 + damage dealt )
Dodging, or avoiding, or simply staying home that day does not answer the situation at hand. You have been hit, Not what?
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<snip>
Trying to adapt to the damage I already took? ...how does that work exactly?
Well you adust to the fact that there is a person attacking you and move handle yourself in a matter that allows you to reach your goals. You don't continue to do the same thing over and over again. That's the definition of madness.
Yes, but we are talking about how hard it is to cast a spell in a storm, not that the prudent thing to do is to cast from inside a cave.
Yea, that's not what we are talking about here. Adaptation is about handling your envirionment not moving to a new environment. I may want to handle my component in a differant way, or roll up my sleave to make sure that my arms don't get weighted down with rain.
Well, Concentrate was a class skill, but that doesn't mean it was a mandatory subject at Hogwarts.
But we can be sure that Spellcraft was. And Knowledge Arcane and Craft Potion. Lots of the Harry Potter series is based on the concept of adapting to your current environment. Casting spells from a flying broom for example.
And thus the higher your level, the better you are at ...skillfully adapting to things like a rapier in yer sleen.
To true. I keep thinking of movie characters who have been injured and say thing's like "I've been hurt worse."
I'll admit there are other ways of seeing things when it comes to this debate. I see your side and I can see how it work. I do think that the current PF system works just fine as it fits my style of play. And I can agree to disagree.
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Herald, you and I (and, I fear Jason and I) are going to have to disagree I think.
The first and foremost example of Concentration vs. Spell/Psicraft to me was in the Scarred Lands Dead God Trillogy, when Vladawen Titanslayer was singing the spell to restore That Which Abides, while dueling. He needed to concentrate. He wasn't adapting the spell, and wasn't relying on how well he knew the components. He was focusing on getting them right while being distracted by a nascent god trying to kill him.
Saying "Spellcraft covers it nicely, because it's a replacement for concentration." is a circular arguement. I find having Concentration as a skill as a superior mechanic.
Why is Concentration spread out to you? To me, it's focused (ha hah). The skill to use other skills and abilities by drowning out distractions. I'm all for adding autohypnosis into it for Pathfinder for 3 reasons.
It makes the skill useful to monks, and keeps the thematic "push past the pain" schtick. It makes it a flavourful skill for non-caster types. It throws a bone to us hungry psi-fans.
First off, I can agree to disagree. I can see everyone's points and I think very well of all of you. I will not resort to flames, I promise. Really no matter what I write please understand that I like you guys and I like this game.
Haven't read the book. Can't really respond to it. But since the book ris refering to game mechanics that existed in 3.0 and 3.5 I can understand why a author would want to play to the material strengths. But I don't see why that has to be caried over to this game.
I really have a big problem with concentration because as it has been brought up here and other discussions is that it is a problem just like MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency).
I don't think that concentration is a good skill for monks at all. Zen is not about concentration. It's about harmony. (Not that all martial arts is about Zen)
It's not really all that flavorful for other Classes. It's a drain. Being able to do what you do well should be realted to just one skill. Other than synergies one skill shouldn't augment an activity that is handled by another skill.
If I'm the best lockpicker in the world, I'm the best lockpicker in the world in a storm, the girls dormitory or king's dungeon. I only need one skill. Disable Device. The difficulty in picking the lock goes up my mental faculties shouldn't enter into it.
I don't mind throwing you a bone, It's just that Psicraft does exactly that.
In closing that is my biggest complaint. Concentration is too spread out. It keeps interfering in activities that it shouldn't.
PS
Saying "Spellcraft covers it nicely, because it's a replacement for concentration." is a circular arguement. I find having Concentration as a skill as a superior mechanic.
I don't think I said just that. I said that I believed that concentration is (IMHO) inferior to training. I don't really see how anyone trains in concentration. I've seen books on how to get organized, but I hardly see how that matches.
How would you say that you trained anyone to concentrate? IMHO you do or you don't.
Concentration really seem like a feat rather than a skill.
First off, I can agree to disagree. I can see everyone's points and I think very well of all of you. I will not resort to flames, I promise. Really no matter what I write please understand that I like you guys and I like this game.
Aww gee :D
I don't think that concentration is a good skill for monks at all. Zen is not about concentration. It's about harmony. (Not that all martial arts is about Zen)
Mediation and mind over matter, walking over hot coals... I would say that maintaining a mental state is more in line than harmonizing with the flames cooking your feet.
In closing that is my biggest complaint. Concentration is too spread out. It keeps interfering in activities that it shouldn't.
...
I don't think I said just that. I said that I believed that concentration is (IMHO) inferior to training. I don't really see how anyone trains in concentration. I've seen books on how to get organized, but I hardly see how that matches.How would you say that you trained anyone to concentrate? IMHO you do or you don't.
Concentration really seem like a feat rather than a skill.
See we don't disagree at all! You think Concentration is not really a skill too! My whole issue whith the way things are in the Alpha is that they are trying to merge two disimilar concepts into one skill.
I do not think that Concentration fits the Feat mold though as everyone can concentrate, but with varying levels of success.
My position regarding the Skills:
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Merge Spellcraft and Knowledge arcana.
Merge Psicraft and Knowledge psionics.
PURGE (not merge) Concentration.
Make Concentrating on a skill check a modifier to the actual skill check.
Have abilities that do not require skill checks (yes I'm looking at you Spellcasting, gaining Psionic focus, walking across coals) force a Will save with DCs based off the old Concentration skill.
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My position regarding the Skills:
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Merge Spellcraft and Knowledge arcana.Merge Psicraft and Knowledge psionics.
PURGE (not merge) Concentration.
Make Concentrating on a skill check a modifier to the actual skill check.
Have abilities that do not require skill checks (yes I'm looking at you Spellcasting, gaining Psionic focus, walking across coals) force a Will save with DCs based off the old Concentration...
Hmm, I think that the knowledge skills are still usable for nonspellcasting classes. Though not in this game, the Artificer should have Knowledge because he doesn't cast spells.
As for your solution, I need to think about it. I like the idea that you have a mechanic that doesn't have one skill substituting of another.
Hmm, I think that the knowledge skills are still usable for nonspellcasting classes. Though not in this game, the Artificer should have Knowledge because he doesn't cast spells.
Merge Spellcraft, Psicraft, Knowledge Arcana, and Knowledge Psionics into a single INT based skill which I'll call Lore. Alternately, omit the Psionics skills for a non-psionic ruleset, with the understanding that if Psionics are added later they also willl use Lore.
It's still usable by non-casters who want to be experts on all things unnatural. (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, ancient mysteries, psionic traditions, psychic symbols, and cryptic phrases) You can use this skill to identify constructs, dragons, magical beasts, undead, psionic monsters, astral constructs, and psionic races their special powers or vulnerabilities.
15 + spell level ... Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.
20 + spell level ... Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
20 + spell level ... Identify materials created or shaped by magic, such as noting that an iron wall is the result of a wall of iron spell. No action required. No retry.
20 + spell level ... Decipher a written spell (such as a scroll) without using read magic. One try per day. Requires a full-round action.
25 + spell level ... After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry.
25 ... Identify a potion. Requires 1 minute. No retry.
20 ... Draw a diagram to allow dimensional anchor to be cast on a magic circle spell. Requires 10 minutes. No retry. This check is made secretly so you do not know the result.
30 or higher ... Understand a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream. Time required varies. No retry.
50 + caster level ... Identify basic property of magic item
70 + caster level ... Identify all properties of magic item
50 ... Quick identification of alchemical substances and potions
13 ... When using read magic, identify a glyph of warding. No action required.
15 + spell level ... Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Lore (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours.
15 + spell level ... Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook (wizard only). One try per day. No extra time required.
15 + spell level ... When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature you can see. (If the aura is not a spell effect, the DC is 15 + one-half caster level.) No action required.
19 ... When using read magic, identify a symbol. No action required.
... Makes it as nice as Tumble for a rogue!
As for your solution, I need to think about it. I like the idea that you have a mechanic that doesn't have one skill substituting of another.
I'm rather proud of it too... :D
Please, let me know if you find fault with it.
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Question. Because there was no change from 2 to 3 despite the amount of protest, should we assume that Paizo has no intention to change this?
I certainly hope that Paizo remains open to skill revisions, because this is probably one of the larger tasks to tackle.
Question. Instead of just voting to merge Spellcraft with Knowledge (arcana), why not lump Use Magic Device in there as well? Keep Concentration separate though. (Similarly, I'd argue to merge Psicraft, Knowledge (psionics) and Use Psionic Device, but Paizo isn't touching Psionics at this point. Still, why not just give a nod to psionics with a skill at this point? It's one skill - by my proposal.)
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Are you talking about the Alpha with this?
No, I'm talking about an example used earlier about trying to pick a lock while being called names. Serious or not, the situation doesn't exist.
As for being hit while spellcasting, I've yet to hear a good reason why avoid spellcasting fumble isn't part of your spell training. Seems to me a perfect fit for spellcraft.
Why couldn't the old Concentration DC's for interrupting a skill that provokes an AoO be added to the beginning of the skills section?
Using Skills Under Duress
Some skills, when used, may incur an attack of opportunity when threatened by an opponent or when being distracted.
When such an attack/event is triggered, the character attempting the the skill check must make a special skill check to maintain their concentration to complete the task at hand.
(Then use the old DC's from the previous Concentration skill.)
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No, I'm talking about an example used earlier about trying to pick a lock while being called names. Serious or not, the situation doesn't exist.
What in the world do yo mean it doesn't exist? A rogue cannot be ribbed by others in a effort to make him fail? seriously that situation cannot happen? ever? at all?
As for being hit while spellcasting, I've yet to hear a good reason why avoid spellcasting fumble isn't part of your spell training. Seems to me a perfect fit for spellcraft.
I've yet to hear a good reason why snorkeling isn't part of Dragon Riding school, either.
The part about Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid/Bard Acadamies neglects to say that it IS part of the training... By the rules if the rules do not say something IS, then it's not. (Oh and there is also not a part about Wizard Acadamies.)
The thing is if avoid spellcasting fumble is part of your spell training, and by assumption Spellcraft, why is Spellcraft not a Mandatory skill in order to cast Any spell. I can have a 20th Level Arch mage raining death on all... without a single rank of Spellcraft.
Why couldn't the old Concentration DC's for interrupting a skill that provokes an AoO be added to the beginning of the skills section?
Using Skills Under Duress
Some skills, when used, may incur an attack of opportunity when threatened by an opponent or when being distracted.When such an attack/event is triggered, the character attempting the the skill check must make a special skill check to maintain their concentration to complete the task at hand.
(Then use the old DC's from the previous Concentration skill.)
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Or just add 5 to the DC of the skill check, to keep it a single roll.
Or just add 5 to the DC of the skill check, to keep it a single roll.
That's doable, but what if he suffers a successful AoO? Skill DC + damage (or half) dealt? Also, is adding 5 sufficient to differentiate between varying sources of distraction? Vigorous or violent motion, for example.
Or just add 5 to the DC of the skill check, to keep it a single roll.That's doable, but what if he suffers a successful AoO? Skill DC + damage (or half) dealt? Also, is adding 5 sufficient to differentiate between varying sources of distraction? Vigorous or violent motion, for example.
Maybe not I was suggesting the mechanics of the rule... as for the difficulties maybe something like this:
+2 Use a skill defensively
+2 Weather is a high wind carrying blinding rain or sleet.
+4 Weather is wind-driven hail, dust, or debris.
+4 Vigorous motion
+6 Violent motion
+6 Entangled.
+8 Extraordinarily violent motion
+8 Grappling or pinned.+half of damage dealt Damaged during the action.
+1/4 of continuous damage last dealt Taking continuous damage during the action.+half of Distracting spell’s save DC Distracted by nondamaging spell.
+half of Distracting spell’s save DC Weather caused by a spell, such as storm of vengeance.
If there is not a applicable skill, such as when casting a spell, make a Will save DC 10 + the above modifiers. Casting a Spell defensively adds further to this check twice the level of the spell.
Possible applications in other areas of the book:
Equipment:
Ignoring caltrop wounds to move at normal movement requires a Will save DC 18 (ala Autohypnosis)
Death and Dying:
If reduced to 0 hit points (disabled), you can make Will save DC 20. If successful, you can take a normal action while at 0 hit points without taking 1 point of damage. You must make a Will save for each strenuous action you want to take. A failed Will save in this circumstance carries no direct penalty—you can choose not to take the strenuous action and thus avoid the hit point loss. If you do so anyway, you drop to -1 hit points, as normal when disabled. (ala Autohypnosis)
Psionics:
If you have 1 or more power points available, you can meditate to block out the distractions of the world to become psionically focused. Meditating is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. This is a very difficult task and requires a Will save DC 20 and may be modified by other distractions. When you are psionically focused, you can expend your focus on any single Will save you make thereafter. When you expend your focus in this manner, your Will save is treated as if you rolled a 15. You can also expend your focus to gain the benefit of a psionic feat—many psionic feats are activated in this way.
That looks pretty good, I'd say.
Any other non standard uses for Concentration?
I remember someone mentioned The Book of Nine Swords?
Edit: it was Tome of Battle - the Diamond Mind discipline requires it for something.
Basically what I did is carried over the DC to a Will save if there isn't another skill (besides Concentration) involved. if another skill IS involved I set the Bonus to the other skill DC equal to 2 for every 5 of the Concentration check DC.
(ie. a DC 15 concentration check turns into a +6 modifier.)
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After giving this some thought last night while contemplating the will save vs. Skill check. I still have to side with skill check, but will save comes in a close second.
My reasoning is this. Skills are learned. Plain and simple they reflect a culmination of experience, training and natural talent. IMHO the ability to concentrate at all comes from the confidence of experiance and training to overcome adverse situations.
Rageheart does bring up some good ideas for modifiers and I think that his proposal for Will saves is compelling. But there is a logic behind it that I find troubling. It implies that no matter how much a person might try, if they don't have a good Will score, they will never truly be great. I'm the sort of guy that believes that heroes overcome personal obstacles,(like my own poor spelling) and can truly shine in the face of uncertainty.
The edge of skills would also fall to players that have a high will scores and I don't think that reflects those sorts of things in the character concepts.
As far as rolling everything up into one skill, that's a bit tricky. The skill would seem to me to be a bit toogood. I would expect my local sage to have knowledge about the Rune Lords and thier magic runes, I wouldn't expect him to know down to the detail of how to make wand. Plus I think taking knowledges away damages the Bard.
This has been a vary interesting discussion. It really has made me think of how PCs relate in a mostly non-combat way but where survival is on the line.
Anyone watch 'Lazytown'? That guy so totally ripped off my routines. That's how I start the day. All I need is a town full of puppets, an airship, and a strangely camp, cross-dressing villain, and I could have been a star! A star!
Umm... Sportacus is Strength personified, not Con. All his routines are very short, relying on anaerobic, non-cardiovascular effort. You're more like... Ziggy (he loves his carbs and is more your height!)
Assuming a Paladin with Int as a dump stat (not a great leap)...No; not a great leap of imagination at all...LOL
It also helps if they or their Favoured Soul cohort put a rank in Spellcraft by level 18/16, as well...:)
You there, Kaile?
Oi! I have 6 ranks and it's cross-class for Ailsa. So there. And I'm a cleric not a paladin (2 level dip irrelevant).
All hail the Lord of Valour (and impossibly high saves)!
Sweet! the topic is still alive, ...just in a seperate thread.
Please see my suggestion here for replacing Concentration as a skill without rolling it into Spellcraft.
Focus does work well though for Psionics. The idea that you have mystical power, but it's locked away deep in your mind and you are trained to unlock that power, is thematicly popular. Focusing really works. And it rolls together nicely into Psicraft."Oh, my God, there's an axe in my head!"
"Improvise! Adapt!"I don't buy it. If you've been run through by a rapier, you're not "adapting" to anything. You're gritting your teeth. How the skill to help you bite the bullet is INT based makes no sense and means that the Wizard is better at casting in melee than a Cleric. Isn't it one of the points of a Cleric that he can cast spells in melee?
I don't buy your counterpoint. If you continue to focus your going to get another axe to the head.
And If I hit you with a rapier, (And I happen to own one, have been trained with one, not that I'm implying a threat) you better adapt or I'm going to play you like a fiddle. There is no way your going to get away with continue with what your doing.
I can't help but notice some confusion over what "concentration" means, and this seems to be the source of much of the disagreement.
I own and know how to use my rapier, as well. I've also participated in sports an music perfomances."Focus" may be synonymous with "keeping your concentration", which 'Herald', above, seems to interpret as "keep doing what you are doing".
I feel that there is another side to Concentration, which is exactly what is being described above by others. When I "lose myself in a performance", that is a kind of focus to me: distractions are blocked out because they are irrelevant, I am so focused on, and mentally engaged in the performance.
My best performances (athletic, combative or otherwise) occur during moments of mental clarity, which can also be called "focus". This does not mean being stubborn, boneheaded and acting without thought to the consequences, it is a state in which you don't distract yourself by thinking too much: you allow your potential to be achieved, and can adapt to the situation much more effectively than if you are over-thinking a situation. This is a skill to me, and can be trained, regardless of the context in which you practiced and learned it. It can also be transferred to other experiences and helps you learn other skills faster, or make up for lack of training in difficult situations.
I don't know how making this distinction will help, but there it is. Personally, I think Concentration applies to both. Con-based Constitution could be "gritting your teeth" and pushing through an action while blocking distractions. Will-based could be "staying in the moment" in a zen-like state, adapting to the situation, and ultimately still achieving your goal without letting distracting thoughts lead you astray.
The idea of substituting a DC modifier to increase difficulty in lieu of a Concentration makes some sense to me. OTOH, I can see how being well-trained in Concentration could also negate this DC penalty, for the same overall effect. That might be too complex rules-wise, so all the ideas presented are attempts at a compromised abstraction for rules simplicity. The more I think about it, however, the more I like having Concentration as a separate skill.
I agree with
I'd really like to get a full explanation for what you [the designers] think the advantage of this is, because I'm just not seeing it.
If Concentration is ultimately dropped from Pathfinder :(, this still leaves a bit of a "rules hole" for resolving non-spellcasting actions in the face of distraction, which needs to be addressed explicitly.
I think you misunderstand me. Concentration is mentioned in spellcraft only as it pertains to spell casting. For all other skills concentration is reflected in the tiered difficulties for some tasks.
Acrobatics, for example has modifiers for walking on narrow surfaces. The character has to move at half speed and make a roll. Think of this as the character as 'concentrating' on walking across the tightrope.
In your game, if you want a player to make a concentration roll, have them make an applicable skill roll, depending on the task they're concentrating on. If they're concentrating on casting a spell, have them roll spellcraft. If they're concentrating on holding onto a friend while they hang from a rope (and a bee lands on their face), have them roll climb. If they're trying to stay focused in a debate while to crowd boos, have them roll diplomacy.
A concentration roll IS a skill roll. Don't get hung up on spellcraft. It only applies to spells.
Personally I think Magic (divine and arcane) and psionics should all be will based. It would probably mean making adjustments to a lot of other things though. Learning spells might be Int based but casting them is will-working. I can see Int playing a part in this but you are exercising force of will to bend and shape reality when you cast a spell. Psionics should be will based for obvious reasons, because psions use the power of the mind to exert influence over things and to just flat out unleash the force of the will. The one place that I would have a little problem with making magic will based is with divine magic believe it or not the one place where it already pretty much is.Divine magic is an act of faith but I suppose by linking up the will of the priest with the will of his or her god then it also could be an act of the will. Just a couple of cents worth.
Charles
I think you misunderstand me. Concentration is mentioned in spellcraft only as it pertains to spell casting. For all other skills concentration is reflected in the tiered difficulties for some tasks.
Acrobatics, for example has modifiers for walking on narrow surfaces. The character has to move at half speed and make a roll. Think of this as the character as 'concentrating' on walking across the tightrope.
In your game, if you want a player to make a concentration roll, have them make an applicable skill roll, depending on the task they're concentrating on. If they're concentrating on casting a spell, have them roll spellcraft. If they're concentrating on holding onto a friend while they hang from a rope (and a bee lands on their face), have them roll climb. If they're trying to stay focused in a debate while to crowd boos, have them roll diplomacy.
A concentration roll IS a skill roll. Don't get hung up on spellcraft. It only applies to spells.
Personally I think Magic (divine and arcane) and psionics should all be will based. It would probably mean making adjustments to a lot of other things though. Learning spells might be Int based but casting them is will-working. I can see Int playing a part in this but you are exercising force of will to bend and shape reality when you cast a spell. Psionics should be will based for obvious reasons, because psions use the power of the mind to exert influence over things and to just flat out unleash the force of the will. The one place that I would have a little problem with making magic will based is with divine magic believe it or not the one place where it already pretty much is.Divine magic is an act of faith but I suppose by linking up the will of the priest with the will of his or her god then it also could be an act of the will. Just a couple of cents worth.
Charles
And also if you think about it everywhere you could have used a concentration check you could use a will save instead. Those who usually need concentration the most usually have strong will saves, I think that might be a good compromise. Thoughts comments?
Charles
Sorry about replying to my own post just had another idea. :)
I did suggest a will save mechanic earlier in this thread...
I'm perfectly fine with phasing out Concentration. It was basically a one-trick pony of a skill that siphoned off valuable skill points from non-Wizards and non-Psions. Spellcasters can use Spellcraft to avoid having their spells fizzle when they take damage. Psionic characters can use Psicraft to do the same, and they should also use it to obtain Psionic Focus. Characters that take damage while performing skills that provoke attacks of opportunity should make a skill check with a DC equal to 10 + damage dealt to avoid having their work interrupted.
Finally, anyone using The Book of Nine Swords should change the Diamond Mind school so that it uses another skill as the base for its abilities (I suggest either Perception or Sense Motive). You may need to change the name of the school and the fluff text, but you'll end up coming out ahead with another great skill that you can use outside of combat.