I just looked this over on the Paizo Blog, and while skimming the entry the one thing that jumped out at me the most was...Trapfinding.
Not against it, since rangers are basically a wilderness skill monkey, but i also wonder if its in part to make groups with a non rogue viable regarding traps and if so perhaps the bard will also end up with it?
Just curious, thoughts everyone?
well Favored terrain jumped out at me the stats feel right ...can't wait to see how it looks
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as long as they only get trapfinding and not trap sense I think its a good idea. only rogues should get both since they are a defining class feature really.
I hope neither get trapfinding at 1st level though because this opens up a new 1 level ranger dip for barbarians to be almost as effective as rogues with a full BAB (rangers getting trapfinding while within their favored terrain would be a suitable limitation too).
(rangers getting trapfinding while within their favored terrain would be a suitable limitation too).
THat is what I'm thinking here.
Another aspect I'm finding interesting is their "aura", Hunter's Boon. That could prove interesting in how it plays out, as well as, increasing the utility of the Ranger all around. Often it seems they are "out of their element" in a dundgeon/urban setting.
Another thing I noticed is the two attack values for his bow.
At first, I thought it was a listing for his Rapid Shot. But the penalty to hit is way off. -6 vs. -2. So I'm not sure what that is all about.
EDIT: NM... I figured it out. Rapid Shot along with Deadly Aim. :o)
My guess is that you apply half of your favored terrain bonus to init when in that terrain.
where are his spells? Have spells become an optional element or have they been eliminated? The first seems more likely. I'm excited because a ranger NPC is going to be important in my next adventure. I can't wait to see what else they've done and to the Monk and Bard as well.
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I looked at the attack values as well.
I did some mental calculations, and I can't imagine a situation where the penalty to attack is worth the extra damage. Two attacks dealing 1d8+3 at +13/+8 is almost always going to be better than 3 attacks at +7/+7/+2.
Assume an opponent with an AC of 25. At +13, you have a 40% chance of hitting, and at +8 you have a 15% chance of hitting. With the +7/+7/+2 you have a 10% chance at +7 and a 5% chance at +2. The odds of hitting on both of the +7s is a small fraction of hitting on both of the regular attacks.
An AC of 20 still isn't good. 60% on the first and 40% on the second versus 35%/35%/10%.
I just don't see it as worthwhile.
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I looked at the attack values as well.
I did some mental calculations, and I can't imagine a situation where the penalty to attack is worth the extra damage. Two attacks dealing 1d8+3 at +13/+8 is almost always going to be better than 3 attacks at +7/+7/+2.
Assume an opponent with an AC of 25. At +13, you have a 40% chance of hitting, and at +8 you have a 15% chance of hitting. With the +7/+7/+2 you have a 10% chance at +7 and a 5% chance at +2. The odds of hitting on both of the +7s is a small fraction of hitting on both of the regular attacks.
An AC of 20 still isn't good. 60% on the first and 40% on the second versus 35%/35%/10%.
I just don't see it as worthwhile.
Well, it stems from using rapid shot and deadly aim at the same time, but then, his own AC is only 18. Which is a good AC at first level. A level 8 character should have an AC in the mid twenties. There is no reason for him to wear studded leather armor when there are mithral shirts. He should also use a magical buckler to gain an additional +2 on AC. AC 21 still isn't that high, but at least it's above 20. It's also worth noting that he hasn't taken any combat feats, he should at least have taken dodge instead of die hard to get a plus one to AC.
In my opinion, this ranger is actually weaker than the 3.5 one. He has no spells, no animal companion and lost one of his bonus feats (track). While the rangers companion wasn't that great, at 8th level you could at least get a dire bat to fly around. He got trapfinding, favored terrain and the ability to give other people his favored enemy bonus. Considering the boosts classes like the rogue got, the ranger seems just weak. He wasn't one of the strong classes of 3.5, so why reduce his effectiveness even more?EDIT: Forgot to mention the upgraded hit die, but then, rogues also got one.
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I looked at the attack values as well.
I did some mental calculations, and I can't imagine a situation where the penalty to attack is worth the extra damage. Two attacks dealing 1d8+3 at +13/+8 is almost always going to be better than 3 attacks at +7/+7/+2.
Assume an opponent with an AC of 25. At +13, you have a 40% chance of hitting, and at +8 you have a 15% chance of hitting. With the +7/+7/+2 you have a 10% chance at +7 and a 5% chance at +2. The odds of hitting on both of the +7s is a small fraction of hitting on both of the regular attacks.
An AC of 20 still isn't good. 60% on the first and 40% on the second versus 35%/35%/10%.
I just don't see it as worthwhile.
Well...if I had 1 opponent with an AC of 25 it's pretty logical that I WOULDN'T use the second +7/+7/+2 option at all. BUT...if I had multiple opponents with a low AC, and maybe they just happened to be a favored enemy, then the second option would be worthwhile. It's all about options. You don't ever have to use the second option if you don't want to.
Seems to me that they are working to make many of these classes more versatile than they have been in the past. They are thinking about these characters from more than just the hack and slash point of view. They are trying to make them work well in both a role play heavy campaign as a roll play heavy campaign.
Also...to those who are doubting the Ranger because of not having a companion or spells....this IS just an ALPHA SNEAKPEAK. I am positive that this Ranger is far from complete. For all you know instead of spells he's getting powers similar to the Barbarian's rage powers. I mean what's that "Hunters Bond" thing all about?
The only thing I was really disappointed about was the lack of artwork of the Ranger. The Druid's portrait rocked with that big tiger behind her. Where is the Ranger artwork?!
He should also use a magical buckler to gain an additional +2 on AC.
Buckler entry on SRD: "You take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round."
Bucklers seem almost designed to be worthless to TWF rangers, who get an additional stacking attack penalty and don't get the AC bonus if they use their signature ability.
Bucklers seem almost designed to be worthless to TWF rangers, who get an additional stacking attack penalty and don't get the AC bonus if they use their signature ability.
The ranger in the blog is an archer, though.
The sadest part of the entry is at the bottom when it says next week I was hoping for the end of this week =(
Where did wild empathy go?
My comments: I like Favored Terrain. I "eh" renaming the animal companion to hunter's bond, but its all good. I noticed a second line for ranged and I look forward to seeing how that works exactly. I am thrilled with a place on the stat block for the CMB.
Overall impress: Very Positive.
Where did wild empathy go?
could be hunter's bond.
Where did wild empathy go?
Maybe the Pathfinder ranger will have the option of swapping out wild empathy/animal companion for something else (like trapfinding). Just like the Pathfinder druid can swap her animal companion for a domain.
He doesn't have a high enough wisdom to cast ranger spells.
Good catch! Oh boy do I hope they're in there though!
Peace,
tfad
@Jadeite: The ranger didn't lose it's tracking ability. It is listed under Special Abilities, along with Shift Tracker. So my guess is, tracking has been rolled in as a class feature. Since we know it has been dropped as a feat.
@Jadeite: The ranger didn't lose it's tracking ability. It is listed under Special Abilities, along with Shift Tracker. So my guess is, tracking has been rolled in as a class feature. Since we know it has been dropped as a feat.
Read the rules for the Survival skill. Tracking no longer requires a feat; it just requires being trained in the Survival skill.
Read the rules for the Survival skill. Tracking no longer requires a feat; it just requires being trained in the Survival skill.@Jadeite: The ranger didn't lose it's tracking ability. It is listed under Special Abilities, along with Shift Tracker. So my guess is, tracking has been rolled in as a class feature. Since we know it has been dropped as a feat.
To counter, a fully skilled character with ranks in Survival would have a maximum on 11 ranks (not counting ability modifier). The ranger stats provided us, appears at gain a +4 bonus when tracking (+15). Hence my comment about Class Ability.
To counter, a fully skilled character with ranks in Survival would have a maximum on 11 ranks (not counting ability modifier). The ranger stats provided us, appears at gain a +4 bonus when tracking (+15). Hence my comment about Class Ability.
Also, I'm blind and I didn't notice that "track" was listed under Special Qualities; I only saw "swift tracker".
:)
Also, I'm blind and I didn't notice that "track" was listed under Special Qualities; I only saw "swift tracker".
:)
No worries.. I often fail Perception checks myself. :oP
It will be interesting to see how Favored Enemy and Fovored Terrain play together when tracking.
Assuming the posability that they would stack, that would give our ranger a +27 (+15 track + 6 Enemy-Orc + 6 Terrain-Forest) when tracking a band of orcs through the forest. At those values it could be played out as a near supernatural ability (See Aragorn from the RotR movies with his ear to the ground).
Hell! Am I too stupid or is the board too weird?
WHERE CAN I FIND THE PREVIEW!?!?!?
Hell! Am I too stupid or is the board too weird?
WHERE CAN I FIND THE PREVIEW!?!?!?
Thanks man.
Director of Game Design
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Hey there all,
I just realized a mistake in his stat block. He does not have trapfinding and he should have wild empathy. That was an error from another block that was used to build this one. Sorry for the mix up.
It should also be noted that this particular ranger does not have spells due to his low Wisdom... poor guy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The ranger doesn't have enough hit points either. No bonus HP for having levels in a favored class.
BUT!!!
The example ranger was made using NPC creation guidelines that will also be in the Alpha 3 document. Perhaps we shouldn't jump to conclusions about what the ranger class gained or lost?
I can't know for sure of course - but I think Animal Companion wouldn't be included in a stat block like this. Neither would spells usually, but someone already noted he doesn't have the wisdom for it.
Though reviewing closer, I think I agree - Hunter's Bond is probably choice of Animal Companion or granting favored enemy bonuses to allies to some degree.
Nice preview!
It should also be noted that this particular ranger does not have spells due to his low Wisdom... poor guy.
You made Belkar!!!
It should also be noted that this particular ranger does not have spells due to his low Wisdom... poor guy.You made Belkar!!!
LOL... but Belkar is eeeeviiil. This guy isn't. :oP
Hey there all,
I just realized a mistake in his stat block. He does not have trapfinding and he should have wild empathy. That was an error from another block that was used to build this one. Sorry for the mix up.
It should also be noted that this particular ranger does not have spells due to his low Wisdom... poor guy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thank for the updates Jason. :o)
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Buckler entry on SRD: "You take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round."Bucklers seem almost designed to be worthless to TWF rangers, who get an additional stacking attack penalty and don't get the AC bonus if they use their signature ability.
Most TWF rangers are better of by using a longsword, large shield and armor spikes. With feats like improved buckler defense, the only reason for a two weapon fighter not to use a shield are feats like deadly defense. Still, it's kind of strange that the character builds getting most use of shields are those that use two weapons.
The clarification with the low wisdom lessens my disdain quite a bit, but it still seems the poor rangers gain little in comparison to other classes. With track now being a general use of survival, rangers have kind of lost one of their bonus feats. They are still able to track, but so can any other character with survival. The 3.5 ranger got swift tracker on level 8, so the pathfinder ranger might gain it a bit earlier.
*snip* They are still able to track, but so can any other character with survival. The 3.5 ranger got swift tracker on level 8, so the pathfinder ranger might gain it a bit earlier.
Going by the write up, Rangers gain a bonus to track (+4), so that does give them a bit of an edge over other characters.
Perhaps to solidify the Ranger's "schtick" for tracking, maybe it should be limited like the Rogues ability to find traps...
Characters may attempt to track someone provided the DC to do so is below 20. Only Rangers may attempt to track quarry where the DC is 20 and above.
Buckler entry on SRD: "You take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round."
Most TWF rangers are better of by using a longsword, large shield and armor spikes. With feats like improved buckler defense, the only reason for a two weapon fighter not to use a shield are feats like deadly defense. Still, it's kind of strange that the character builds getting most use of shields are those that use two weapons.
I don't understand how this would work out: how would armor spikes lead you to be able to use two weapons, or are you talking about shield bash? Because the whole idea of taking a buckler feat seems wrong to me: spending a feat to make a buckler shield proficiency actually work.
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The clarification with the low wisdom lessens my disdain quite a bit, but it still seems the poor rangers gain little in comparison to other classes. With track now being a general use of survival, rangers have kind of lost one of their bonus feats. They are still able to track, but so can any other character with survival. The 3.5 ranger got swift tracker on level 8, so the pathfinder ranger might gain it a bit earlier.
Ahh but you missed the part about favored terrain bonus counting towards survival when tracking. So yes, anyone can track, but the ranger starts at Rank + 3 + Attribute + Favored Terrain.
If the ranger takes Self-Sufficient as a feat or Skill Focus.. he's got an insane tracking ability.
It's just too bad Jason went with Stealth over Perception.. the ability to track and have improved initiative over a prey seems like you should be able to detect their presence better as well. Not that I don't mind sneaking around.. but if anyone should be the anti-ambusher, it seems like the Ranger should be it.
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I would point out that the ranger's getting twice the favored X bonuses that the 3.5 ranger got. A level 8 ranger, unless a Feat is taken, will only have two favored X's, which might be terrain or foe (or Veronica or Samantha... sorry, bad pun).This ranger gets two favored terrains and two favored foes.
While this is certainly more than just a favored enemy, it doesn't equate to two favored enemies. Favored terrain by itself is very problematic because unless the party travels around the world, exploring a new terrain each week, favored terrain is either active all the time or never. But yes, it could be seen as an improvement over the 3.5 ranger.
I don't understand how this would work out: how would armor spikes lead you to be able to use two weapons, or are you talking about shield bash? Because the whole idea of taking a buckler feat seems wrong to me: spending a feat to make a buckler shield proficiency actually work.
According to the D&D FAQ, armor spikes can be wielded as offhand weapons. So it is possible to use them while wielding a two-handed weapon or while using a one-handed weapon and a shield. Bucklers are quite useful for projectile weapon using characters since they allow them to get a shield bonus while still being able to shoot and load their weapons. Bucklers are also great for sorcerers and wizards. They may not be proficient with them, but since mithral bucklers have no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure, they lose nothing from using them. It's the light shield that's useless since it has no advantage over the buckler.
Going by the write up, Rangers gain a bonus to track (+4), so that does give them a bit of an edge over other characters.
Perhaps to solidify the Ranger's "schtick" for tracking, maybe it should be limited like the Rogues ability to find traps...
Characters may attempt to track someone provided the DC to do so is below 20. Only Rangers may attempt to track quarry where the DC is 20 and above.
So, now it's the equivalent of a feat like combat casting. I like the idea of limiting non-rangers to a DC below 20, but it might be even better to create feats like Improved Track and Improved Trapfinding to allow other classes advanced skill usage while giving it to rangers and rogues as (optional) bonus feats. In my opinion, tracking is much more associated with ranger concepts, than trapfinding is with rogue ones.
Looks good!
It's just too bad Jason went with Stealth over Perception.. the ability to track and have improved initiative over a prey seems like you should be able to detect their presence better as well. Not that I don't mind sneaking around.. but if anyone should be the anti-ambusher, it seems like the Ranger should be it.
You know, the first thing I thought when I saw the bonuses to favored terrain was that I thought a bonus to perception would be good. I was thinking back to the old 1st edition ranger that was the hardest member of the party to surprise.
Then again, who knows how these abilities work exactly yet until we see the ranger. Still, I'd get all warm and fuzzy over the "never surprised" ranger again . . .
It's just too bad Jason went with Stealth over Perception.. the ability to track and have improved initiative over a prey seems like you should be able to detect their presence better as well. Not that I don't mind sneaking around.. but if anyone should be the anti-ambusher, it seems like the Ranger should be it.You know, the first thing I thought when I saw the bonuses to favored terrain was that I thought a bonus to perception would be good. I was thinking back to the old 1st edition ranger that was the hardest member of the party to surprise.
Then again, who knows how these abilities work exactly yet until we see the ranger. Still, I'd get all warm and fuzzy over the "never surprised" ranger again . . .
I can see that, if the Favored Terrain bonus was applied to Perception checks. But as you said, we just need to wait and see how the abilities play out.
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It's just too bad Jason went with Stealth over Perception.. the ability to track and have improved initiative over a prey seems like you should be able to detect their presence better as well. Not that I don't mind sneaking around.. but if anyone should be the anti-ambusher, it seems like the Ranger should be it.You know, the first thing I thought when I saw the bonuses to favored terrain was that I thought a bonus to perception would be good. I was thinking back to the old 1st edition ranger that was the hardest member of the party to surprise.
Then again, who knows how these abilities work exactly yet until we see the ranger. Still, I'd get all warm and fuzzy over the "never surprised" ranger again . . .
How It should be! :)
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Hey there all,
I just realized a mistake in his stat block. He does not have trapfinding and he should have wild empathy. That was an error from another block that was used to build this one. Sorry for the mix up.
It should also be noted that this particular ranger does not have spells due to his low Wisdom... poor guy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
You know, Jason, giving rangers and bards trapfinding would do wonders to eliminate the problem of EVERY party needing a rogue or deciding by implication to disarm all traps with their faces. Now don't get me wrong, I LIKE the rogue class (especially now!), but as it currently stands, it's the only truly irreplaceable core class in the game; the one that MUST be in every party that's going to encounter traps. Far your melee monster you've got the choice of fighter, barbarian, paladin, monk or ranger. For healing, you can use a cleric, druid, paladin or bard. For blasting, a wizard, sorcerer, or druid. For sneaky antics, a rogue, ranger, monk, or bard. For trapfinding? A rogue. Period.
How about spreading that around a bit? Even just giving it to the ranger would be two choices rather than one, for an increase of 100%.