To prove consistent proportion, you would have...do you think Lastwall knights should be trans, in minor (individual) or major (detachment) numbers? Do you think it would work with the material as currently presented?LGBT humans are a 'normal' part of humanity, in that a consistent proportion of humans throughout history and pre-history have been LGBT.
Given that, there is no reason to imagine that the humans in Golarion are different in this very specific way.
Each individual LGBT person will want to live their life, and their place on any gender/sexuality spectrum will not be the only thing they find important. So each individual, LGBT or not, will have the same chance of wanting to be part of the defence of Lastwall. Their place on any gender/sexuality spectrum is simply not relevant to anyone's desire to be there.
Therefore, individual paladins will be LGBT, at about the same percentage as they exist in humanity as a whole.
The idea of a detachment of specifically LGBT paladins is weird, simply because gender/sexual identity is not relevant to paladin status or the desire to be at Lastwall. What would be the point of trying to form such a unit?
The existence of LGBT people in humanity as a whole or at Lastwall in microcosm is not worthy of comment as a general statement. Why would there be a need to say that, yes, LGBT people exist in Golarion? That should be obvious. Of there were no LGBT people in Golarion (or at Lastwall), that would be worthy of comment! And a damn good explanation!
So absolutely no need for the writers of APs to specify that LGBT people exist in any microcosm in Golarion. The place to mention it (if at all) is in the descriptions of individuals. Not even like, 'Oooh, this fella's gay', but more like, 'Fred is married to Barney, the squad leader on level 5' , in exactly the same way as you would if the married couple were Fred and Wilma instead of Fred and Barney.
That's right, the Lakota did not know the term "trans." But, the concept of transgenderism is documented and still existed in many tribes in North America, as well as other civilizations on Earth. Just like they did not know the term "bow", but they sure know the concept of archery and using a bow and arrow.
And it's never been about proportion or meeting a quota of minorities in a setting or adventure. We don't want every adventure to have at least 5 transpeople or else. All people are asking for is representation/ Acknowledgement that they exist as people in a setting that they play in. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well having done a bit of Asian studies, I can say that Minkai does get a bit confused. Sometimes it is Japan, sometimes China, rarely Vietnam, but once in a while a bit Korean.Transgendered and non-gendered people have existed in the past in societies and mythologies. Hinduism has Hijira and the concept of a Third Gender, as well as some gods that either are both genders or have no gender. Many of the North American tribes like the Lakota and Navajo have Two Spirit People, which were people that held a masculine and feminine spirits and were held in esteem amongst over 100 tribes of the Americas. The Taino people of the Caribbean believed that Yucahu and Atabey, their creator gods, were actually the different aspects of one genderless creator god. Dionysus was the patron god of transpeople and Loki was known to change genders in Norse Mythology. And there is more about transgenderism and gender identity in other mythologies and cultures. This isn't just a recent "sub-culture of a minority." It's been here for the longest time, just largely ignored and tucked away.
And, honestly, Golarion already has real-world cultural inspirations in it. From Land of the Linnorm Kings (Scandanavia) to Osirion (Egypt) to Minkai (Japan), Golarion already has a great deal of Earth culture that inspires it in varying degrees. So who even cares if transgendered culture is applied to the setting, when so much of it is already steeped in real world culture?
The more I follow this debate, the more I realise just how canny you are, 3.5 Loyalist.
Odraude raises some valid points here about old-world cultures having a number of examples of a third gender in their mythology (something that does survive the mists of time), and you discard it with a frivolous comment about Minkai instead of re-examining your position when faced with new evidence.
|
You continue to ignore anything that might remotely challenge your flimsy arguments.
Inner Sea World Guide, published March 2011, and hence written in 2010. Hello there Arshea!
Oh wait! Let's go back further to the original Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, published September 2008, and thus highly likely to be written in 2007. Arshea's here too!
Hmmm. When did Rise of the Runelords come out? 2007, right?
Transgendered folk sure haven't been around since the beginning at all.
You continue to ignore anything that might remotely challenge your flimsy arguments.
Inner Sea World Guide, published March 2011, and hence written in 2010. Hello there Arshea!
Oh wait! Let's go back further to the original Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, published September 2008, and thus highly likely to be written in 2007. Arshea's here too!
Hmmm. When did Rise of the Runelords come out? 2007, right?
Transgendered folk sure haven't been around since the beginning at all.
One is not "folk", but it can be a sign of things to come.
As for Arshea, an androgynous being is not a trans human. Of course Jacobs is now since August committed to putting trans people in.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
3.5 Loyalist: Fair enough - it's a free world and we're all entitled to opinions.
Vote with your wallet and walk away if the inclusion of well written and loving trans* characters is enough to abandon a setting for... I know that I am voting with my own wallet by continuing to purchase Paizo products.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I first fell in love with Golarion when I read about the anti-labor offensive of the Korvosan plutocrats and their persecution of the brothers and sisters of the Ironsoots.
Then, of course, I discovered the best country in Golarion, Galt. After that, there was the anti-slavery crusading of Andoran, which is a pretty blatant political cause in a fantasy setting with little to no reflection irl medieval Earth history.
Seems to me there's quite a few "causes" in Pathfinder with ahistorical mirrors to our present day reality.
3.5 Loyalist: Fair enough - it's a free world and we're all entitled to opinions.
Vote with your wallet and walk away if the inclusion of well written and loving trans* characters is enough to abandon a setting for... I know that I am voting with my own wallet by continuing to purchase Paizo products.
Yesterday, Arshea and it is not really an issue for the humans of Golarion.
Today, Tokenism, some characters and a commitment to keep putting them in, whether people like it or not.
Tomorrow, what will it be?
If a setting is becoming a propaganda channel for a specific modern-day cause, it has got way too serious and a far cry from what I want.
|
I think the important thing is that Paizo isn't creating transgendered characters out of coercion or because of some pro-LGBT agenda. They're writing the stories they WANT to write, they're creating the characters they WANT to create, and the people that buy their products play the games they WANT to play. If having transgendered people in your game isn't something you'r comfortable with, simply don't have them there. I'm a notorious stickler for canon around here and I'm not bothered if it introduces an inconsistency. Inconsistencies in Golarion only exist in the minds of the players and GMs. I personally like Wrath of the Righteous and think the introduction of homosexual and transgendered characters in it added an interesting element to the story. Had I been uncomfortable with it, I'd have tweaked the characters to bring them more in line with my own views. I wouldn't see it as evidence of some kind of Orwellian political-corrections conspiracy, or that Paizo's a bad company for having said characters. James Jacobs has no need to be apologetic for what you accuse him of because he, and all the other people at Paizo, have done nothing ethically wrong by having these characters be the way they chose to write them, just as you do nothing ethically wrong by changing said characters to suit your own game.
|
|
Wait, wait, wait. First there's too many trans* people (because agendas and stuff), and now there's not enough for it to count?
Incidentally, here's an interesting post that lists some more trans* characters and some more information about Arshea. The earlier post has some other tid-bits too. I actually didn't realise there were so many trans* characters within the last year. That's interesting.
There's also Miss Feathers who has been around since the The Shadow Gambit Pathfinder Society module (2010)...
The only "propaganda" I'm seeing (and by propaganda, I mean it isn't at all) is "Transgendered exist in the setting". That's like saying the Mwangi are put in Golarion as propaganda for modern-day race issues. Which, neither aren't.
Also, Tokenism denotes sticking to stereotypes and caricatures, which nobody wants and isn't happening.
|
|
James Jacobs in 2008. This is adding on from this post, after someone questioned him about not adding the 'T' in. *shrug*
Although I don't know why I'm bothering digging this stuff up really.....
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, this is silly.
It doesn't matter if there were or weren't trans people in various real world historical nations. None of those nations are the ones in Golarion. Just because Orison is based on Egypt or Cheliax is based on the Bush Administration (all those compacts with devils...) doesn't mean that they're the same. Ancient Egypt doesn't actually have there undead ancient rulers get up and try to murder people, and there ruler doesn't have a bodyguard of troopers raised from the dead by his own hand.
The idea that in a world where a dragon can sleep with a halfling and you can build a fortress in the sky with the right spells, but you can't have people who are trans is kinda...weird.
Honestly, this strikes me as the kind of argument I see when people start screaming you can't have dark skinned people in a made up medieval based setting. There dark skinned people in medieval Europe, of course. But apparently it's easier to believe they were all eaten by dragons than to actually have them in there...
BUT if you want trans in a historical setting, then I can help you with that. Let's go back to ancient Egypt, shall we? The River God, Hapi, often depicted as a women with a penis. From records it would seem that at least some of her priests were trans, to connect closer to there God, and that at least some Eunuchs chose to dress in feminine styles. Queen Hatshepsut is known for having worn male clothing, including a beard, during her reign and raised her daughter to do the same.
Heck, most of Africa actually has records of trans people in various cultures, some of which still survives today.
But hey, that's only Garund, right? Europe never did that sorta stuff, and therefore the North of the map is still clear. Except when they did. Priests of Artemis, for example, were sometimes male to female trangender. The Legendary Prophet Tiresias is famed for having spent years of his life as a woman, from which he claimed he got much wisdom in the stories.
And of course, a little more modernly, you have the Chevalier d'Eon who spent the last 33 years of her life as a woman.
That's off the top of my head. I can probably find some more examples of transgender people in history, if you like? Again, I don't actually think it's relevant - Golarion isn't Earth, and what's on Earth isn't always in Golarion - but this isn't a modern thing. It's an ancient thing that got buried and has resurfaced.
Gender identity is also a new term. I take your broad meaning though.
Couple of excerpts: During the American Civil War (1861–1865) at least 240 biological women are known to have worn men's clothing and fought as soldiers. Some of them were transgender and continued to live as men throughout their lives. One such notable soldier was Albert Cashier.
Jennie June (born in 1874 as Earl Lind) wrote The Autobiography of an Androgyne (1918) and The Female Impersonators (1922), memoirs that provide rare first-person testimony about the early-20th-century life of a transgender person. The words "transsexual" and "transgender" had not yet been coined, and June described herself as a "fairie" or "androgyne", an individual, she said, "with male genitals", but whose "psychical constitution" and sexual life "approach the female type".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, this is silly.
It doesn't matter if there were or weren't trans people in various real world historical nations. None of those nations are the ones in Golarion. Just because Orison is based on Egypt or Cheliax is based on the Bush Administration (all those compacts with devils...) doesn't mean that they're the same. Ancient Egypt doesn't actually have there undead ancient rulers get up and try to murder people, and there ruler doesn't have a bodyguard of troopers raised from the dead by his own hand.
The idea that in a world where a dragon can sleep with a halfling and you can build a fortress in the sky with the right spells, but you can't have people who are trans is kinda...weird.
Honestly, this strikes me as the kind of argument I see when people start screaming you can't have dark skinned people in a made up medieval based setting. There dark skinned people in medieval Europe, of course. But apparently it's easier to believe they were all eaten by dragons than to actually have them in there...
BUT if you want trans in a historical setting, then I can help you with that. Let's go back to ancient Egypt, shall we? The River God, Hapi, often depicted as a women with a penis. From records it would seem that at least some of her priests were trans, to connect closer to there God, and that at least some Eunuchs chose to dress in feminine styles. Queen Hatshepsut is known for having worn male clothing, including a beard, during her reign and raised her daughter to do the same.
Heck, most of Africa actually has records of trans people in various cultures, some of which still survives today.
But hey, that's only Garund, right? Europe never did that sorta stuff, and therefore the North of the map is still clear. Except when they did. Priests of Artemis, for example, were sometimes male to female trangender. The Legendary Prophet Tiresias is famed for having spent years of his life as a woman, from which he claimed he got much wisdom in the stories.
And of course, a...
Yeah I don't get it either.
In a world where dragons break the Square-Cube Law, cat people walk amongst us, shantaks can fly in space, and floating cities dot the skies, it's the inclusion of LGBT people that suddenly break people's verisimilitude.
Gender identity is also a new term. I take your broad meaning though.
New term, old concept.